2025-07-09 17:00:50 <@pboy:fedora.im> !startmeeting fedora-server
2025-07-09 17:00:52 <@meetbot:fedora.im> Meeting started at 2025-07-09 17:00:50 UTC
2025-07-09 17:00:53 <@meetbot:fedora.im> The Meeting name is 'fedora-server'
2025-07-09 17:00:58 <@pboy:fedora.im> !topic Welcome / roll call
2025-07-09 17:01:39 <@korora:fedora.im> !hi
2025-07-09 17:01:40 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Jocelyn Gould (korora) - she / her / hers
2025-07-09 17:02:52 <@jwhimpel:fedora.im> !hi
2025-07-09 17:02:53 <@zodbot:fedora.im> John Himpel (jwhimpel)
2025-07-09 17:04:32 <@pboy:fedora.im> Welcome everybody!
2025-07-09 17:05:28 <@pboy:fedora.im> We are a small group today, again. But if we count in nirik who is lurking as usual, we could start. Then we meet our quorum.
2025-07-09 17:06:47 <@pboy:fedora.im> OK, I don't see any objection, so let's start.
2025-07-09 17:07:02 <@pboy:fedora.im> !topic Agenda
2025-07-09 17:07:14 <@pboy:fedora.im> !info  Server requirements for the upcoming updated version of Anaconda
2025-07-09 17:07:14 <@pboy:fedora.im> !info  Follow-up actions & announcements
2025-07-09 17:07:14 <@pboy:fedora.im> !info  F43 release testing
2025-07-09 17:07:14 <@pboy:fedora.im> !info  Open Floor
2025-07-09 17:07:36 <@pboy:fedora.im> Any addition to he agenda? 
2025-07-09 17:07:54 <@pboy:fedora.im> Any addition to the agenda? 
2025-07-09 17:08:22 <@pboy:fedora.im> Obviously none.
2025-07-09 17:08:30 <@pboy:fedora.im> So let's start.
2025-07-09 17:08:44 <@pboy:fedora.im> !topic 1. Follow-up actions & announcements
2025-07-09 17:09:00 <@pboy:fedora.im> Regarding the action, nothing new. See
2025-07-09 17:09:00 <@pboy:fedora.im> !link https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/server-working-group/wg-minutes-2025/
2025-07-09 17:09:26 <@pboy:fedora.im> Something to add here??
2025-07-09 17:10:18 <@pboy:fedora.im> Obviously nothing to add.
2025-07-09 17:10:29 <@pboy:fedora.im> !topic 2.  Server requirements for the upcoming updated version of Anaconda
2025-07-09 17:10:42 <@pboy:fedora.im> Tracking issue: !link https://pagure.io/fedora-server/issue/163
2025-07-09 17:10:52 <@pboy:fedora.im> email disccussion:
2025-07-09 17:10:52 <@pboy:fedora.im> !link https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/server@lists.fedoraproject.org/thread/XVPXBXRPQWLO2NLEATCANOEH7TBOC2BS/
2025-07-09 17:11:03 <@pboy:fedora.im> Specifically Jocelyns post:
2025-07-09 17:11:03 <@pboy:fedora.im> !link https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/server@lists.fedoraproject.org/message/S7MJTYIR6S6B4URY2HGPUOZWA7XSODTW/
2025-07-09 17:12:02 <@pboy:fedora.im> How do we want to proceed? May be it is best to go step by step through the proposals and note, what we agree upon.
2025-07-09 17:12:13 <@pboy:fedora.im> Other ideas?
2025-07-09 17:12:39 <@jwhimpel:fedora.im> 👍️
2025-07-09 17:12:54 <@pboy:fedora.im> OK
2025-07-09 17:13:19 <@pboy:fedora.im> Proposal 1: We are removing the “Software Selection” menu item without replacement.
2025-07-09 17:14:07 <@pboy:fedora.im> If I read Jocelyns summary correct, we agree to remove it?
2025-07-09 17:15:18 <@korora:fedora.im> I think it's superfluous.  Install Server-Product-Environemnt, let everything else be handled post install
2025-07-09 17:16:05 <@pboy:fedora.im> Yeah, proposal !agreed We will remove "Software Selectiopn" from the installation summary. 
2025-07-09 17:16:18 <@pboy:fedora.im> Yeah, proposal !agreed We will remove "Software Selection" from the installation summary. 
2025-07-09 17:16:39 <@pboy:fedora.im> Yeah, proposal !agreed We want to remove "Software Selection" from the installation summary. 
2025-07-09 17:16:47 <@jwhimpel:fedora.im> I agree.  but we need to review what is in Server-Product-Environment.  (it ought to be relatively minimal)
2025-07-09 17:17:43 <@korora:fedora.im> I second John's suggestion of review of what packages make up Server-Product
2025-07-09 17:17:47 <@pboy:fedora.im> John Himpel: Yes! We have to check the creation of the installation media. Maybe some or our wiches are not doable. Or not without a lot of work.
2025-07-09 17:18:40 <@pboy:fedora.im> The packages are more of less defined in our technical specification. And additionally there is
2025-07-09 17:19:33 <@pboy:fedora.im> !link https://pagure.io/fedora-server/issue/88
2025-07-09 17:21:09 <@pboy:fedora.im> That boils down to check and review the content of the various groups we install. 
2025-07-09 17:21:50 <@pboy:fedora.im> I see we agree , therefore: 
2025-07-09 17:22:06 <@pboy:fedora.im> !agreed We want to remove "Software Selection" from the installation summary. 
2025-07-09 17:22:31 <@jwhimpel:fedora.im> I would hope we would only install one "base" group and let post-install methods take care of the rest.  Sorry for the lag after the "agreed" message.
2025-07-09 17:23:13 <@pboy:fedora.im> John Himpel: yes, agreed. Let's see what our review reveals.
2025-07-09 17:24:09 <@pboy:fedora.im> Proposal 2: We are removing the “Software Source” menu item without replacement.
2025-07-09 17:25:08 <@pboy:fedora.im> There is some disagreement, if I see it correctly. Specifically, for network install it is usefullto be able to select another repository as the nearest by.
2025-07-09 17:25:20 <@pboy:fedora.im> There is some disagreement, if I see it correctly. Specifically, for network install it is useful to be able to select another repository as the nearest by.
2025-07-09 17:26:02 <@pboy:fedora.im> But what a about the DVD version, there is everything included locally. Do we need a source selection there, too? 
2025-07-09 17:27:45 <@jwhimpel:fedora.im> I support being able to select another repository. 
2025-07-09 17:28:00 <@korora:fedora.im> If doing a net install, we need it.  for a full dvd install, we do not.  (Workstation/netinstall isos appear work this way as well)
2025-07-09 17:28:39 <@jwhimpel:fedora.im> I am not sure what the question regarding the DVD installation means.
2025-07-09 17:29:23 <@korora:fedora.im> Maybe the DVD version should have the option to install latest from a repo.  (something has this option, but I don't recall what it is)
2025-07-09 17:29:59 <@pboy:fedora.im> John Himpel: As I remember, you can select another, locally available repo. 
2025-07-09 17:30:22 <@pboy:fedora.im> But this is not the cases for the typical sys admin, I suppose 
2025-07-09 17:31:01 <@jwhimpel:fedora.im> Jocelyn (she/her): Peter Boy Wouldn't dnf5 take care of that post-install?
2025-07-09 17:31:14 <@pboy:fedora.im> Jocelyn (she/her): Then you leave the DVD install and make a network install.
2025-07-09 17:32:25 <@korora:fedora.im> Yes, but it simplifes the install if you install latest packages from the repos (But then again, I can't think of the last time I used a full DVD install, I almost always do netinstalls
2025-07-09 17:33:57 <@jwhimpel:fedora.im> I am certainly guilty of assuming a fast/cheap network being present during installation.  I don't know how many folks do not have that option and would be using DVD based installs.  Anybody have a guess?
2025-07-09 17:35:44 <@pboy:fedora.im> I do mostly DVD install. It is just even quicker in my rather fast network connection. But it depends on the mirror server, too, of course. 
2025-07-09 17:36:07 <@pboy:fedora.im> But we don't know, how many use what installation medium.
2025-07-09 17:37:26 <@pboy:fedora.im> I think, DVD install is for those, who want as less as possible work with the installation process itself. Optimally, just one click and everything works just out of the box.
2025-07-09 17:39:18 <@korora:fedora.im> I have thought about doing a minimal server install and then intalling the DE/all my other tools after the fact.  
2025-07-09 17:40:13 <@jwhimpel:fedora.im> Perhaps we should keep the installation as simple as possible for the anaconda team to implement.  We can come up any number of scenarios, but if there too many scenarios, maintenance becomes more complicated and expensive for them.  
2025-07-09 17:40:34 <@pboy:fedora.im> Jocelyn (she/her): There is no "minimal Server (Edition)" install. The minimal option is a minimal general purpose Fedora
2025-07-09 17:41:23 <@pboy:fedora.im> John Himpel: that's a valid argument.
2025-07-09 17:41:57 <@korora:fedora.im> I think installing a minimal base system and let the rest happen post install (Ansible/individual scripts, depending) Or give the option to use kickstart for adding things to the minimal server base. 
2025-07-09 17:42:34 <@korora:fedora.im> My brain was thinking the way Debian/Ubuntu do their 'minimal server' installs.
2025-07-09 17:43:00 <@pboy:fedora.im> Probably we can agree upon retain the source selection for netinstall and drop it for full DVD install, if it is not too complicated for the Anaconda team? 
2025-07-09 17:43:11 <@jwhimpel:fedora.im> I was wishing that the default install for Fedora Server would be similar general purpose Fedora installation.  Just with our "tweaks" (file system, packages, TZ, etc)
2025-07-09 17:43:16 <@mowest:fedora.im> !hello
2025-07-09 17:43:18 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Steve Daley (mowest)
2025-07-09 17:43:21 <@mowest:fedora.im> Sorry late to the party
2025-07-09 17:43:41 <@korora:fedora.im> Secondeded
2025-07-09 17:44:04 <@pboy:fedora.im> Hi mowest, nevertheless, welcome to the party 👍️
2025-07-09 17:44:57 <@korora:fedora.im> Better late than not at all!
2025-07-09 17:45:45 <@jwhimpel:fedora.im> Peter Boy: Agreed to your proposal
2025-07-09 17:46:07 <@pboy:fedora.im> Thanks:
2025-07-09 17:46:22 <@pboy:fedora.im> !agreed We want to keep the source selection option for net install, but drop it for DVD install it is is not to much work to implement. 
2025-07-09 17:48:00 <@pboy:fedora.im> Well, we have a kind of implizit proposal regarding the installation options. If I read everything correct, we would like to drop this together with the software selection. We want to keep it as simple as possible and currently there is nothing useful to select from.
2025-07-09 17:48:32 <@pboy:fedora.im> And if someone wants a more specific selection, kickstart is the way to go.!
2025-07-09 17:50:11 <@mowest:fedora.im> I'm in agreement to make the install as simple as possible with good defaults, and then users can build on top of this base with kickstart files, Ansible playbooks, or a bash script.
2025-07-09 17:51:26 <@pboy:fedora.im> OK, then
2025-07-09 17:51:30 <@pboy:fedora.im> proposal !agreed we want to drop the option menu together with the software selection item.  
2025-07-09 17:52:11 <@mowest:fedora.im> Has anyone seen what DHH (creator of Ruby on Rails) has done with a simple post install bash script to create a fully set up developer workstation built on a Ubuntu base, and now one on an Arch base. Neat stuff, and I think something that Fedora Server homelab folks could do too.
2025-07-09 17:53:08 <@pboy:fedora.im> Maybe, it a good idea to have a look at it, when we discuss our idea of a homelab spin
2025-07-09 17:53:17 <@korora:fedora.im> I'd be curious about it, can you throw a link in the server room?
2025-07-09 17:53:46 <@pboy:fedora.im> I see no objection regarding the proposal, therefore
2025-07-09 17:53:58 <@pboy:fedora.im> !agreed we want to drop the option menu together with the software selection item.  
2025-07-09 17:54:30 <@pboy:fedora.im> Proposal 3: We are removing the “Time / Timezone” menu item without replacement. 
2025-07-09 17:54:53 <@pboy:fedora.im> I think, many of us would like to have this preserved.
2025-07-09 17:55:25 <@jwhimpel:fedora.im> Would rather keep.  If dropped, then default s/b UTC.
2025-07-09 17:55:44 <@pboy:fedora.im> Allthough, in a netinstall the timehzone is automatically determined. And in a dvd install, too, in most situations.
2025-07-09 17:56:01 <@korora:fedora.im> While I rarely go into this menu item during an install, I think we should default to UTC  and if hte end user wants to change it, they can do so 
2025-07-09 17:56:02 <@mowest:fedora.im> Jocelyn (she/her): Done
2025-07-09 17:57:32 <@mowest:fedora.im> I'm in favor of keeping this option available to the user. I appreciate that all of my installs have the correct time zone after install.
2025-07-09 17:57:44 <@pboy:fedora.im> well, proposal !agreed We want to keep the time/timezone item and set timezone to UTC if it can not determinde from the runtime environment.
2025-07-09 17:58:01 <@pboy:fedora.im> That is, what I read in most posts, I guess.
2025-07-09 17:58:34 <@jwhimpel:fedora.im> How would it be able to determine timezone from runtime environment?
2025-07-09 17:58:36 <@pboy:fedora.im> well, proposal !agreed We want to keep the time/timezone item and set timezone to UTC if it can not determined from the runtime environment.
2025-07-09 17:58:56 <@korora:fedora.im> Geolocation, I think.  
2025-07-09 17:59:31 <@pboy:fedora.im> John Himpel: geolocation from the network (e.g. network IP) using the servers IP or the desktop of sysadmin
2025-07-09 18:01:13 <@jwhimpel:fedora.im> My isp is located hundreds of miles from me in a different TZ.  The net thinks I am several states away from my lab.  I need to be able to set the value during install.  
2025-07-09 18:01:30 <@pboy:fedora.im> John, are you typing (zodbot says this)
2025-07-09 18:01:54 <@jwhimpel:fedora.im> I also need to be able to set the time, as a bunch of SOC systems don't run the clock during power-off.
2025-07-09 18:03:14 <@pboy:fedora.im> OK, so I think you agree to the proposal (it says we keep it, UTC is just a preselection, sysadmin can overwrite it )
2025-07-09 18:03:30 <@jwhimpel:fedora.im> 👍️
2025-07-09 18:04:02 <@korora:fedora.im> Agreed
2025-07-09 18:04:55 <@pboy:fedora.im> !agreed We want to keep the time/timezone item and preselected timezone UTC if it can not determined from the runtime environment. Can be overwritten during install.
2025-07-09 18:05:42 <@pboy:fedora.im> So, I think, our time is up.
2025-07-09 18:05:54 <@jwhimpel:fedora.im> Before we go, I need to update my status to the group:  Next week is heart surgery.  Next month is knee replacement.  Both are routine, but have significant recovery/rehab time.  So I will probably be away from my computer a lot for the next couple of months as rehab and Physical Therapy will be taking several hours each day.  Also I will be living on a floor in my house while my workstation and lab  are on another, so I will not be able to easily go back and forth.
2025-07-09 18:07:24 <@pboy:fedora.im> John Himpel: John, that's a full program. Good luck and all the best for the results.
2025-07-09 18:07:40 <@pboy:fedora.im> John Himpel: John, that's a full program. Good luck and all the best for the results !!!!!
2025-07-09 18:07:41 <@jwhimpel:fedora.im> As a result, my participation for a while will be sporadic for the next several months.
2025-07-09 18:08:07 <@jwhimpel:fedora.im> Peter Boy: Thanks
2025-07-09 18:08:09 <@pboy:fedora.im> Yes, thanks for the info!
2025-07-09 18:08:40 <@pboy:fedora.im> I look forward to your return! And in the best of health!
2025-07-09 18:09:13 <@pboy:fedora.im> OK, I think, we should close now. Or anything to add? 
2025-07-09 18:09:27 <@jwhimpel:fedora.im> Signing off for now.
2025-07-09 18:09:40 <@pboy:fedora.im> Good luck!
2025-07-09 18:10:19 <@pboy:fedora.im> Well, bye bye everybody and see you next week at latest!
2025-07-09 18:10:34 <@pboy:fedora.im> !endmeeting