2025-12-17 15:01:40 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !startmeeting Fedora Council meeting - 2025-12-17
2025-12-17 15:01:41 <@meetbot:fedora.im> Meeting started at 2025-12-17 15:01:40 UTC
2025-12-17 15:01:41 <@meetbot:fedora.im> The Meeting name is 'Fedora Council meeting - 2025-12-17'
2025-12-17 15:01:47 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !meetingname council
2025-12-17 15:01:48 <@meetbot:fedora.im> The Meeting Name is now council
2025-12-17 15:01:50 <@jspaleta:fedora.im> !hi
2025-12-17 15:01:51 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Jef Spaleta (jspaleta) - he / him / his
2025-12-17 15:01:57 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> !hi
2025-12-17 15:02:01 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Laura Santamaria (nimbinatus) - she / her / hers
2025-12-17 15:02:07 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !topic Welcome, Hello's, and Role Call
2025-12-17 15:02:09 <@pboy:fedora.im> !hi
2025-12-17 15:02:12 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Peter Boy (pboy)
2025-12-17 15:02:12 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !hi 
2025-12-17 15:02:14 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Justin Wheeler (jflory7) - he / him / his
2025-12-17 15:02:24 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !info Today is the last Fedora Council meeting of 2025!
2025-12-17 15:02:29 <@t0xic0der:fedora.im> !hi
2025-12-17 15:02:30 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Akashdeep Dhar (t0xic0der) - he / him / his
2025-12-17 15:03:21 <@pbokoc:fedora.im> !hi
2025-12-17 15:03:23 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Petr Bokoč (pbokoc)
2025-12-17 15:05:14 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Council_Meetings#Next_Meeting_Agenda
2025-12-17 15:05:38 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Jef Spaleta: Sorry, I just got side-railed by something very urgent and timely and I need to handle this. Can I pass chairing to you for a moment please? 
2025-12-17 15:05:45 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I need 5-6 minutes to sort this urgently 
2025-12-17 15:09:36 <@jspaleta:fedora.im> lets see how badly I can run a meeting
2025-12-17 15:09:57 <@ffmancera:fedora.im> !hi
2025-12-17 15:09:58 <@zodbot:fedora.im> FAS Fernando F. Mancera (ffmancera) - he / him / his
2025-12-17 15:10:57 <@jspaleta:fedora.im> do we have quorum?
2025-12-17 15:11:28 <@t0xic0der:fedora.im> Seems like a healthy quorum of ~5-6 people
2025-12-17 15:12:45 <@jspaleta:fedora.im> okay lets get into the agenda items justin posted the agenda link above already
2025-12-17 15:12:59 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> !info Present Justin Wheeler Jef Spaleta @nimbinatus Peter Boy (ServerWG, Docs) Akashdeep Dhar Petr Bokoc ffmancera 
2025-12-17 15:13:12 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> (following what was done last time :) I can take notes)
2025-12-17 15:13:20 <@zodbot:fedora.im> t0xic0der gave a cookie to nimbinatus. They now have 2 cookies, 2 of which were obtained in the Fedora 43 release cycle
2025-12-17 15:14:09 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> want me to post the agenda?
2025-12-17 15:14:14 <@jspaleta:fedora.im> !topic Ticket 555 Council Strategy Summit https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/555
2025-12-17 15:16:16 <@jspaleta:fedora.im> Okay so there's been an email thread via the council private email list around the Summit where all council members should have had an opportunity to provide some feedback on what they want to see in the agenda.  Has everyone had a chance to weigh in?
2025-12-17 15:16:37 <@jspaleta:fedora.im> Justin Wheeler and I have a sync tomorrow to put a draft agenda together.
2025-12-17 15:16:48 <@jflory7:fedora.im> OK, I'm back. A bit (read: very) triggered by corporate shenanigans, but I'm here. 
2025-12-17 15:17:19 <@jflory7:fedora.im> True facts!
2025-12-17 15:17:21 <@churchyard:fedora.im> (I'm at a work meeting that's running over)
2025-12-17 15:17:27 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> I weighed in that I don't have a lot to weigh in on, but I think I owe another reply. I don't generally have much feedback
2025-12-17 15:17:53 <@jspaleta:fedora.im> There's going to be public discussion on the draft agenda regardless.
2025-12-17 15:17:55 <@t0xic0der:fedora.im> Likewise. Weighed in but I am most likely not going to make it there in person. 
2025-12-17 15:18:07 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I have been meaning to follow up on Peter Boy (ServerWG, Docs)'s reply, but the feedback collected has been wonderful so far. 
2025-12-17 15:18:12 <@t0xic0der:fedora.im> Will connect remotely though ✌️
2025-12-17 15:18:33 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Mostly I hoped to use today's meeting as a final chance to check in and make sure everyone was on the same page, and had the days penciled into their calendars. In person or remote. 
2025-12-17 15:18:58 <@jspaleta:fedora.im> Justin Wheeler: is there any call to actions that you want council members to take this week concerning the ticket?  
2025-12-17 15:19:24 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Thanks, it makes it a lot easier for me to write a meeting summary on Fedora Discussion after the fact. And the shenanigans are honestly keeping me somewhat distracted this morning. Sigh.
2025-12-17 15:19:41 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> No worries; I can be notetaker
2025-12-17 15:19:46 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I think today is the final call for feedback. I can give a quick update on the perceived timeline in my mind.
2025-12-17 15:20:26 <@jflory7:fedora.im> If folks have questions about travel or agenda, now is the best opportunity to voice them though. If there aren't any, after I write a quick update, then we can go ahead to the next ticket and review Akashdeep's work. 
2025-12-17 15:21:14 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !info This is the final week for feedback on the Fedora Council Strategy Summit in February 2026. On Friday, Jef and Justin will shape up the agenda into a final form that we can all keep in mind as we head off into the year-end holidays. 
2025-12-17 15:22:08 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !info The intent is that we will NOT make huge shifts in the agenda in January, and the only changes will be refinements to the existing topics on the agenda. This addresses feedback received from a few years of having a firm agenda prepared in the weeks before we arrive together, instead of the days before we arrive together. 
2025-12-17 15:22:50 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !halp If you feel like a topic is missing from the agenda that you care about or the community cares about and urgently needs Council attention, this is the last week to bring it up! 
2025-12-17 15:23:29 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !info Additionally, while we do have a Council-private mailing list thread, we can continue using the older, longer Council-private thread or the public Fedora Discussion topic, which has received some engagement. 
2025-12-17 15:23:40 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Thanks for that, ffmancera 😄
2025-12-17 15:24:12 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !link https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/fedora-council-tickets-ticket-555-council-strategy-summit-2026-2-6-february-2026-tirana-albania/176610
2025-12-17 15:24:16 <@jflory7:fedora.im> <EOF>
2025-12-17 15:24:41 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Hm, the brackets escaped on Element for me, but that was a "EOF" from me. 
2025-12-17 15:24:43 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Questions? 
2025-12-17 15:24:45 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Comments? 
2025-12-17 15:24:46 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Concerns? 
2025-12-17 15:24:53 <@bookwar:fedora.im> !hi
2025-12-17 15:24:55 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Aleksandra Fedorova (bookwar) - she / her / hers
2025-12-17 15:24:55 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Santa cookies? 
2025-12-17 15:25:15 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Hey bookwar 👋🏻
2025-12-17 15:25:39 <@bookwar:fedora.im> Sorry, just finished my other meetings
2025-12-17 15:25:46 <@bookwar:fedora.im> Are in open floor now?
2025-12-17 15:26:18 <@pbokoc:fedora.im> 1 more ticket on the agenda
2025-12-17 15:26:19 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> Just finishing up the topic on the strategy/planning agenda
2025-12-17 15:27:03 <@jflory7:fedora.im> If no questions, comments, concerns on the Strategy Summit, we can advance one ticket more toward Santa cookies. 
2025-12-17 15:27:24 <@bookwar:fedora.im> Justin Wheeler: if I go from Brussels on Monday - are you going to handle the travel ?
2025-12-17 15:27:33 <@bookwar:fedora.im> Or should we each buy our tickets
2025-12-17 15:28:20 <@jflory7:fedora.im> bookwar: Let's DM on details, but I can fairly sure I can get you tickets from Brussels to Tirana to Dusseldorf. And likely with direct flights. I do not handle airfare or any travel costs but I am handling hotel together with Jona Azizaj (she/her): 
2025-12-17 15:28:30 <@jflory7:fedora.im> You may or may not be able to use Egencia 
2025-12-17 15:28:37 <@bookwar:fedora.im> Ok, I will ping you later
2025-12-17 15:28:44 <@jflory7:fedora.im> We can chat on these details about the corporate shenanigans elsewhere 👍🏻
2025-12-17 15:29:07 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Sorry, to make this more clear, I handle the budget but the actual purchase of the airfare is on you
2025-12-17 15:30:12 <@jflory7:fedora.im> TL;DNR: Check out your options with Wizz Air and Ryan Air. I think Egencia shows you Ryanair but not Wizz Air. There is a sanctioned, blessed way to book outside of Egencia but that's what we can chat about elsewhere. 
2025-12-17 15:30:26 <@jflory7:fedora.im> With that, if there are no other Summit things, let's talk about the work that Akashdeep Dhar: has done! 
2025-12-17 15:30:52 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !topic Ticket #550: A new community policy/doc on what to expect from the Fedora community
2025-12-17 15:31:04 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/550
2025-12-17 15:31:15 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !link https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VzSsN3XqRi4h0VSANmh2rDlEmNGG7WwblYCzLbWPZRI/edit?usp=sharing
2025-12-17 15:31:24 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Akashdeep Dhar: Can I pass this one over to you, sir? 
2025-12-17 15:31:29 <@t0xic0der:fedora.im> !link https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/fedora-council-tickets-ticket-550-a-new-community-policy-doc-on-what-to-expect-from-the-fedora-community/173152
2025-12-17 15:31:36 <@t0xic0der:fedora.im> Sure.
2025-12-17 15:32:46 <@t0xic0der:fedora.im> A quick summary of the ticket would be that a request was made for a policy/guideline document to recommend what one can expect from the Fedora Project community members getting started with their contribution.
2025-12-17 15:33:23 <@t0xic0der:fedora.im> As much as we would want to get to folks as soon as their requests are made, Fedora Project is a volunteer community with folks who are sponsored by Red Hat to work on things so that might not be always possible.
2025-12-17 15:33:42 <@ffmancera:fedora.im> FWIW, I am not a council member but saw the link and invited myself to provide feedback :-)
2025-12-17 15:33:50 <@ffmancera:fedora.im> I hope that is fine
2025-12-17 15:34:07 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Of course! 
2025-12-17 15:34:15 <@jonatoni:fedora.im> Sorry I'm late, scrolling through the notes if I missed anything 🙈
2025-12-17 15:34:25 <@t0xic0der:fedora.im> This is an initial draft for the document. Justin Wheeler and Ankur Sinha (FranciscoD@fedora) (he/him/his) provided an initial set of feedbacks but everyone here (including those lurking and might not be the part of Council) are welcome to join in.
2025-12-17 15:35:16 <@t0xic0der:fedora.im> PS. You need not have a Google account to be able to collaborate here. The document is open for viewing / commenting etc. to everyone so the changes can always be communicated asynchronously using the Discussion thread shared above.
2025-12-17 15:35:58 <@jflory7:fedora.im> In retrospect, I think I may have come in a little too hard (or sleepily) with some of my comments and lost sight of the original objective for why I want this document, but I think you handled my feedback well. There are a few places I still need to follow up, but it would be nice to have a wider feedback loop than me and Ankur too. 
2025-12-17 15:36:15 <@t0xic0der:fedora.im> 
2025-12-17 15:36:15 <@t0xic0der:fedora.im> One of the key things that could use folks attention (apart from the entirety of it, of course) is the following point from the "Progressing Forward" section.
2025-12-17 15:36:15 <@t0xic0der:fedora.im> 
2025-12-17 15:36:18 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> As a former editor, are you welcoming grammatical corrections or comments at this time, or are we in a period focused more on a draft of the specific content?
2025-12-17 15:36:30 <@t0xic0der:fedora.im> "Collaborate instead of demanding. Frame requests as notifications rather than assignments and offer help to test out to ensure polished outcomes."
2025-12-17 15:36:52 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> I'm happy to provide thoughts, but I also don't want to do any grammatical notes if you're still working through content.
2025-12-17 15:37:14 <@jflory7:fedora.im> If you all could imagine yourselves in the position of working in your various components of Fedora, someone showing up shaking their first about why you haven't fixed a bug on a ticket they opened last week and why is Fedora being so incompetent, this is the sort of scenario where it would be nice to have this document. 
2025-12-17 15:37:19 <@bookwar:fedora.im> My position in this topic has not changed. I don't believe this document is the effective solution for the problem described in the original ticket. I am not opposed to writing text like this, but I don't see a lot of value for this as a Council creation. 
2025-12-17 15:37:25 <@bookwar:fedora.im> My position on this topic has not changed. I don't believe this document is the effective solution for the problem described in the original ticket. I am not opposed to writing text like this, but I don't see a lot of value for this as a Council creation. 
2025-12-17 15:37:37 <@t0xic0der:fedora.im> I welcome both. I tried to keep myself from using an assistive LLM as much as possible but as English is not my first language, there is likely grammatical mistakes or unnecessarily long-winded sentences here and there.
2025-12-17 15:37:51 <@jflory7:fedora.im> If you all could imagine yourselves in the position of working in your various components of Fedora, someone showing up shaking their fist about why you haven't fixed a bug on a ticket they opened last week, and why is Fedora being so incompetent, this is the sort of scenario where it would be nice to have this document.
2025-12-17 15:37:53 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> Got it; thank you! I'll be gentle :)
2025-12-17 15:38:21 <@jflory7:fedora.im> To better understand your POV, where do you see something like this living if not the Fedora Project `/project/` docs?
2025-12-17 15:38:42 <@churchyard:fedora.im> I would also like to point out that there are policies that *demand* packager action and response.
2025-12-17 15:38:59 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Like CVEs, you mean?
2025-12-17 15:39:05 <@t0xic0der:fedora.im> I think I was able to understand where you were coming from with your comments because I know you personally, so all good. I did ended up keeping a lot of the feedback open for folks to look at as honestly, even I did not have answers to those just yet - folks, here can help us with that.
2025-12-17 15:39:17 <@churchyard:fedora.im> actually no, you can ignore CVEs for years
2025-12-17 15:39:31 <@churchyard:fedora.im> like fails to install, fails to build issues
2025-12-17 15:39:37 <@jflory7:fedora.im> 💀💀💀
2025-12-17 15:39:45 <@bookwar:fedora.im> I see it as a FAQ or Talking points document maintained by the people who do the talking. Same like "Common Issues" in Ask Fedora are written by people who do the support
2025-12-17 15:40:05 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Ahhh, that's a good point.
2025-12-17 15:40:24 <@t0xic0der:fedora.im> Call it a stop gap soluchan or a workaround, if you will - that would keep folks on the Fedora Join SIG or any other place onboarding folks to not keep repeating the same reasons as to why they were not tended to as quickly as possible. They could simply point folks to the document (and hope that they would understand).
2025-12-17 15:40:44 <@jflory7:fedora.im> The part I have a challenge in following is who "the people who do the talking" are here.
2025-12-17 15:40:48 <@pboy:fedora.im> The document alone is probably not sufficient and not effective. We need to present Fedora consistently. And on our homepage, we present ourselves differently, as I have already noted elsewhere.
2025-12-17 15:40:52 <@t0xic0der:fedora.im> (A wild jednorozec breaks the door screaming "HOPE IS NOT A STRATEGY")
2025-12-17 15:41:19 <@bookwar:fedora.im> That's my point. Why are _we_ writing and reviewing things for the Join SIG?
2025-12-17 15:41:42 <@jflory7:fedora.im> And not only the Join SIG, but also in Bugzilla tickets, packaging discussions, Code of Conduct reports, etc.
2025-12-17 15:41:45 <@jspaleta:fedora.im> demand?  really? Or do you mean release blocker which strongly incentivizes packagers take action?
2025-12-17 15:41:49 <@bookwar:fedora.im> The format of the document we can write doesn't not fit the evnvironment Join SIG operates in.
2025-12-17 15:41:52 <@churchyard:fedora.im> for example, the documentation says packagers are expected to respond to issues in timely manner https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/fesco/Package_maintainer_responsibilities/
2025-12-17 15:41:57 <@t0xic0der:fedora.im> No, Join SIG is an example here. It is not only Join SIG that faces this. 
2025-12-17 15:41:57 <@t0xic0der:fedora.im> It is everywhere that we need contributors in. 
2025-12-17 15:41:59 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Where do you see the inconsistencies?
2025-12-17 15:42:23 <@churchyard:fedora.im> demand as in inaction has consequences (the package is orphaned)
2025-12-17 15:42:38 <@jspaleta:fedora.im> yeah... consequences... are not demands
2025-12-17 15:42:42 <@bookwar:fedora.im> When a person comes to Fedora Matrix channel complaining about a broken stuff, that person will not read a four-pages document explaining why the should not complain. And sending them to that document is not helping
2025-12-17 15:42:52 <@jflory7:fedora.im> That's also a fair point. Depending on what side of the bed someone wakes up on for a given day 😄
2025-12-17 15:42:54 <@pboy:fedora.im> Justin Wheeler: We present us as a free of charge download service.
2025-12-17 15:43:11 <@bookwar:fedora.im> We need short, on point, FAQ, written in the language and the manner the person speaks to us.
2025-12-17 15:43:13 <@jflory7:fedora.im> It's not a Join SIG document is my angle though
2025-12-17 15:43:16 <@churchyard:fedora.im> ok then, perhaps it's a language thing :/ I don't know a batter word for it.
2025-12-17 15:43:17 <@t0xic0der:fedora.im> Wherever we have folks joining in from the outside, there might be times when their pull requests might go unchecked or their asks might go unanswered. We want to paint a picture to help them understand why it is so without going into nitty-gritty details of how many nights nirik had to stay up for the DC move.
2025-12-17 15:43:47 <@churchyard:fedora.im> ok then, perhaps it's a language thing :/ I don't know a better word for it.
2025-12-17 15:44:01 <@ffmancera:fedora.im> aren't they? You can lost your packager status if you don't comply with some rules/policies. That seems like a "demand" to me. What is the difference there? Anyway, I believe we are focusing on the semantics too much probably 😅
2025-12-17 15:44:10 <@ffmancera:fedora.im> > <@jspaleta:fedora.im> yeah... consequences... are not demands
2025-12-17 15:44:10 <@ffmancera:fedora.im> aren't they? You can lose your packager status if you don't comply with some rules/policies. That seems like a "demand" to me. What is the difference there? Anyway, I believe we are focusing on the semantics too much probably 😅
2025-12-17 15:44:10 <@ffmancera:fedora.im> 
2025-12-17 15:44:10 <@t0xic0der:fedora.im> From any angle, I'd say. Join SIG is used an example in my previous message. 
2025-12-17 15:44:10 <@t0xic0der:fedora.im> Apologies if that ended up derailing the conversation or confusing folks but in other SIGs/subprojects as well, folks get onboarded.
2025-12-17 15:44:38 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> I got started reviewing :sheepish: Just coming back to read comments.
2025-12-17 15:44:38 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> 
2025-12-17 15:44:38 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> So as a long-time open source person but not very present in Fedora until this year, to be honest, this feels like something every open source project struggles with. It's a common thing that happens from projects like curl to Kubernetes, and from projects supported by companies to projects run by sole maintainers. This seems like a statement that can be made in a short and long format and posted in many places.
2025-12-17 15:45:00 <@t0xic0der:fedora.im> We are not asking folks NOT to complain but rather we are painting a picture of why it takes a while to get back to them.
2025-12-17 15:45:00 <@t0xic0der:fedora.im> I think you misunderstand.
2025-12-17 15:45:00 <@t0xic0der:fedora.im> And how they can help speed things up.
2025-12-17 15:45:26 <@t0xic0der:fedora.im> (Much in the spirit of "If you want things to be perfect, do those yourselves" but in a kinder manner)
2025-12-17 15:46:21 <@churchyard:fedora.im> patches welcome :D
2025-12-17 15:47:09 <@bookwar:fedora.im> I think you miss my point. People do not read four pages documents unless they are forced to. Pointing them to such a document is not an effective way to convey the information contained in it.
2025-12-17 15:47:17 <@t0xic0der:fedora.im> Yep, having it documented means that I do not necessarily have to explain folks to them when they DM me just because they saw me active on the #admin:fedoraproject.org chat. I could point them to this and ask them to wait while the more urgent things are taken care of. 
2025-12-17 15:47:38 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> May I ask if we already have any kind of auto-response bot?
2025-12-17 15:48:05 <@bookwar:fedora.im> You will have to repeat the message from that document in different ways many times anyway.
2025-12-17 15:48:05 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> A short response in the moment in the space where someone comments might be a good thing to have, that then could link to a longer document for people inclined to read further
2025-12-17 15:48:14 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> Yes
2025-12-17 15:48:26 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> but a bot reduces the maintainer mental load
2025-12-17 15:48:27 <@jspaleta:fedora.im> status represents a continued affirmation that about the level out work someone agrees to do.  equating access with demand is inappropriate.
2025-12-17 15:48:35 <@jflory7:fedora.im> So, maybe as a strategy, we could focus on making this document more concise and clear. And if there needs to be more details and explanation, then it can be something iterated on in more detail.
2025-12-17 15:48:38 <@churchyard:fedora.im> like a copy paste snippet one could use when they don't want to write it over and over again :D
2025-12-17 15:48:44 <@t0xic0der:fedora.im> Your response is valid though about people being inclined to read a documentation. They're mostly not and hence, slapping one on their face is not helpful.
2025-12-17 15:48:44 <@t0xic0der:fedora.im> 
2025-12-17 15:48:44 <@t0xic0der:fedora.im> Sorry to go down into the semantics of the documentation length here but it is a 1.5 page long document (turned pageless on Justin Wheeler's request)
2025-12-17 15:49:25 <@bookwar:fedora.im> And the strategy to make it consice and clear is to turn into into an FAQ, and allow people who battle-test that FAQ in the field to edit the messaging :)
2025-12-17 15:49:35 <@jspaleta:fedora.im> im no longer a packager... i was... i stopped doing the work... so i lost the status... others picked up the packages i stopped working on. It was never a demand that I continue to do that work.
2025-12-17 15:49:39 <@bookwar:fedora.im> And the strategy to make it consice and clear is to turn into an FAQ, and allow people who battle-test that FAQ in the field to edit the messaging :)
2025-12-17 15:49:53 <@ffmancera:fedora.im> Hm, I think I understand it now. Thanks for taking the time to explain it.
2025-12-17 15:49:55 <@t0xic0der:fedora.im> What can be helpful instead is providing the context as to why they can't be helped at that moment, before referencing this document. Pretty much in the spirit of the "No empty pings" documentation that we reference every now and then.
2025-12-17 15:49:57 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Peter Boy (ServerWG, Docs):  Maybe in some views yes, but I think in other ways, probably not? I guess I am curious where you feel like the existing draft implies the wrong idea.
2025-12-17 15:50:42 <@bookwar:fedora.im> And not just edit and approve it once, rather iterate on it, continuously.
2025-12-17 15:50:52 <@jflory7:fedora.im> We do not, but Forgejo could potentially invite such things. But that takes effort and work by `$SOMEONE`
2025-12-17 15:51:18 <@jflory7:fedora.im> One challenge we have is that the message being repeated today is not consistent
2025-12-17 15:51:19 <@t0xic0der:fedora.im> We had this discussion with Ankur Sinha (FranciscoD@fedora) (he/him/his) (for the onboarding side of things) and decided not to do it. Having a human involved helps folks to get back to "someone" when they do not hear back a satisfactory answer first.
2025-12-17 15:51:26 <@pboy:fedora.im> Answer to Justin Wheeler The draft is perfectly OK in my view. But we have to communicate the underlying intention constistently everywhere.
2025-12-17 15:52:00 <@jflory7:fedora.im> And sometimes, there are people who wear wide-brimmed hats and work with people who pay a lot of money for Linux who may inadvertently feed into an incorrect stereotype. Even if the intention is good. 
2025-12-17 15:52:31 <@t0xic0der:fedora.im> This. The access has been provided to them because they have proved to be good at what they do and we could use their help. If either of these conditions fail to work, then stripping off the accesses is actually beneficial.
2025-12-17 15:52:57 <@ffmancera:fedora.im> I'm completely lost now x)
2025-12-17 15:52:58 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Oh darn, we have eight minutes left for this meeting 😅
2025-12-17 15:52:59 <@jflory7:fedora.im> On the bright side, people DEFINITELY have opinions here, which is good! But we need to figure out to redirect this before the year-end holidays. 
2025-12-17 15:52:59 <@naraiank:fedora.im> There is a lot of redundancy of information, so common information documents can be hyperlinked and can be quoted.
2025-12-17 15:52:59 <@naraiank:fedora.im> This is a very general observation.
2025-12-17 15:52:59 <@naraiank:fedora.im> But when it comes to legal documentation, all the documents should be in one pocket.
2025-12-17 15:53:41 <@t0xic0der:fedora.im> The initial draft is rather superficial (covering most if not all aspects of contribution) but we can add an FAQ below it to get down to the specifics.
2025-12-17 15:53:41 <@t0xic0der:fedora.im> With you on this. An FAQ structure could be useful. 
2025-12-17 15:54:11 <@jflory7:fedora.im> bookwar: If the format were changed to a FAQ style Project/Council doc, would that address your concern better?
2025-12-17 15:54:13 <@t0xic0der:fedora.im> Yep, definitely feel free to overwhelm me, folks using the Discussion thread and the Google doc linked above.
2025-12-17 15:55:27 <@churchyard:fedora.im> I also feel like the document tries to send a message and uses far to many many words to do it.
2025-12-17 15:55:42 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Sometimes I should take a page from the Germans and be more direct instead of speaking in euphemisms. But I'll blame the lost sleep from the Fedora Elections last night on that 😄
2025-12-17 15:55:47 <@t0xic0der:fedora.im> I do think that there is place for both kinds of information representation.
2025-12-17 15:55:47 <@t0xic0der:fedora.im> We need not do one way for the sake of other. 
2025-12-17 15:55:47 <@t0xic0der:fedora.im> The more superficial one (for those who are new) and the FAQ style specific one (for those who have been around for a while).
2025-12-17 15:55:47 <@jspaleta:fedora.im> This is actually bigger than just Fedora... this is an ecosystem problem.  Last year I started on a Open Source Project Contributor Manifesto that spoke to the same themes... in conversations I was having with people in other parts of the ecosystem. 
2025-12-17 15:56:08 <@bookwar:fedora.im> I do think having an in-depth discussion about basic principles of the FOSS maintainership can be useful as well. But 1) not for the purpose of fast-response to complaints 2) the discussion itself in this case is more valuable than any possible outcome of it.
2025-12-17 15:56:19 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Let me try and recap some of what I'm seeing here for the minutes. 
2025-12-17 15:56:58 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !info Fervent discussion ensued on the draft. Opinions were given, feedback was sought, and we ended up running out of time! However, clearly there is some actionable feedback on this as we move forward. 
2025-12-17 15:57:54 <@ffmancera:fedora.im> Maybe it could be nice to continue working on that and then just say Fedora agrees with ...
2025-12-17 15:58:02 <@nimbinatus:matrix.org> Right, that's what I was saying above. This isn't a just us thing; it's very common. A lot of projects use automation to remind people of the volunteer nature of open source, at least for an initial pass, to reduce maintainer cognitive load
2025-12-17 15:58:03 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !info There is doubt on whether a long, detailed document is something that should be maintained at the top-level of project docs. It is unclear to some whether the impact we want this document to have could be achieved. Feedback was given that making it shorter and more concise would be useful, so it doesn't get overlooked so easily. 
2025-12-17 15:58:14 <@ffmancera:fedora.im> Because I agree that this isn't a Fedora exclusive issue
2025-12-17 15:58:27 <@t0xic0der:fedora.im> I would use it when the same set of folks reach out to me, twice or thrice with the same request to draw a picture as to why things take time.
2025-12-17 15:58:27 <@t0xic0der:fedora.im> 
2025-12-17 15:58:27 <@t0xic0der:fedora.im> If you were to ask me where I would use this document, slapping it on the face of folks asking me for help during Dusshera or Diwali won't be on the list. 
2025-12-17 15:58:54 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !idea An idea was raised about having automation in issues/PRs that adds a note about slow review/response time and tries to explain the dynamics of our community. This might be better than total radio silence when someone raises feedback. However, this feature does not exist today and would have to be built out. 
2025-12-17 15:59:47 <@t0xic0der:fedora.im> Absolutely, there is a reason why #join:fedoraproject.org is still a resounding success after all these years. With our people over code/contribution/whatevertheheck focus, we allow people place to kick around even when there is nothing significant going on to work towards for them.
2025-12-17 16:00:10 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !idea We may be able to offload the content generation piece to other communities who have faced the same challenges. This is not a uniquely Fedora problem. We can try and interpret what has already been written elsewhere into a Fedora context. 
2025-12-17 16:00:35 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !info We ran out of time to fully get to a closing position on this ticket, but anticipate that feedback will continue in the new year. 
2025-12-17 16:00:44 <@churchyard:fedora.im> I find automated replies to bug reports like that a tad disrespectful. whether it's stale bot on github or the GNOME bugzilla autoreply telling me to go upstream unless it's a packagign issue every time I report a packaging issue :/
2025-12-17 16:01:06 <@churchyard:fedora.im> I find automated replies to bug reports like that a tad disrespectful. whether it's stale bot on github or the GNOME bugzilla autoreply telling me to go upstream unless it's a packaging issue every time I report a packaging issue :/
2025-12-17 16:01:07 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !action @council Leave feedback on specifics in the Google Doc, and for high-level points about where the document should live and who it is being written for, use the Fedora Discussion topic. 
2025-12-17 16:01:22 <@t0xic0der:fedora.im> This. That is why I scrapped the work on "Seeder" / "Sprout" project that would have automatically opened Welcome tickets for #join:fedoraproject.org. 
2025-12-17 16:01:40 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !halp If possible, get your feedback in before the year-end holiday season, as we all know there is a collective, social amnesia for anything in December that is not explicitly written down! 
2025-12-17 16:01:46 <@jflory7:fedora.im> OK. We are one minute over time. 
2025-12-17 16:01:50 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I did my best to summarize here. 
2025-12-17 16:01:54 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I hope I did a decent job! 
2025-12-17 16:02:01 <@zodbot:fedora.im> t0xic0der has already given cookies to jflory7 during the F43 timeframe
2025-12-17 16:02:01 <@jflory7:fedora.im> But we do have to yield back the channel now. 
2025-12-17 16:02:08 <@churchyard:fedora.im> I need to run. thanks Justin Wheeler and sorry for missing half of this meeting
2025-12-17 16:02:10 <@jflory7:fedora.im> And I have some other shenanigans to go and firefight. 
2025-12-17 16:02:20 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Thanks folks for your engagement and attention here today! 
2025-12-17 16:02:22 <@churchyard:fedora.im> your capacity is fluid :)
2025-12-17 16:02:25 <@t0xic0der:fedora.im> Best of luck ✌️
2025-12-17 16:02:44 <@jflory7:fedora.im> And have a wonderful end of your year! I wish you all cozy, warm days spent relaxing and recharging after a super busy year. 
2025-12-17 16:02:49 <@jflory7:fedora.im> And, lots of Santa cookies. 
2025-12-17 16:03:03 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Farewell, and see y'all in 2026! 😎🎆
2025-12-17 16:03:08 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !endmeeting