15:03:11 <mchua> #startmeeting
15:03:13 <zodbot> Meeting started Fri Apr 30 15:03:11 2010 UTC.  The chair is mchua. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:03:14 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
15:03:35 <alolita> hi mel! good morning
15:03:36 <mchua> #meetingname mini professor workshop
15:03:37 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'mini_professor_workshop'
15:03:44 <mchua> howdy, alolita! quaid, le ping?
15:04:16 <quaid> howdy
15:04:30 <alolita> quaid: hi!
15:04:57 <mchua> Okay - so, this meeting is to figure out whether/what we'd like to do for a mini workshop for professors, separate from POSSE, in Portland right before OSCON.
15:05:17 <alolita> mchua: as we had discussed earlier - we should consider a mini workshop for profs
15:05:19 * mchua would like to take a few minutes at the end to touch base really quickly about POSSE CA recruiting, but that's a quickie for later.
15:05:22 * mchua nods.
15:05:33 <alolita> mchua: go ahead
15:06:14 <alolita> mchua: the thing to do over this weekend is to finalize the letter / email we will send to invite various profs for posse ca
15:06:16 <mchua> alolita: nah, we can check in on that at the end (or over email) - quaid and I both wanted to hear your thoughts about the mini-workshop, and what you're hoping for it to look like, what you think participants should be able to get out of it.
15:06:21 * mchua nods
15:06:32 <mchua> oh, though if you'd rather do recruitment first, we can do that too. :)
15:06:50 * mchua is looking forward to actually meeting in person in July - so much faster than IRC...
15:07:04 <quaid> actually, if we could touch upon recruiting first ...
15:07:10 <mchua> #topic POSSE CA recruiting
15:07:16 <alolita> mchua, quaid: so i would like to suggest that we do a one-day or two-day camp around or at oscon first
15:07:28 <alolita> switching gears then :-)
15:07:33 <alolita> let's talk recruiting
15:07:47 * mchua swaps gears back and forth, settles on recruiting first
15:07:48 <mchua> whee!
15:07:57 <alolita> :-)
15:08:15 <mchua> #info email invite template for professors needed by end of weekend
15:08:25 <mchua> quaid: I think you had one written up already, based on the generic invite template?
15:08:38 <mchua> #link http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/HOWTO_plan_a_POSSE#POSSE_announcement_email
15:08:41 <mchua> (that's the generic one)
15:08:45 <quaid> http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/User:Quaid/POSSE_Cali_2010_CS_recruiting_email
15:08:47 <alolita> i have been looking at the various science talent schools in the bay area (sf, south bay) and have a list of about 10 profs to invite from there
15:08:51 <quaid> well, I have two and am mergin
15:08:57 <quaid> *merging*
15:09:03 <mchua> alolita, quaid: I have one application for POSSE CA from a professor from New York, so we may only need 4 more
15:09:05 <quaid> #link http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/User:Quaid/POSSE_Cali_2010_CS_recruiting_email
15:09:06 <mchua> alolita: awesome!
15:09:20 <alolita> we should email these profs to get some of them enlisted
15:09:29 <alolita> at least 2 per school
15:09:47 * mchua nods
15:09:54 <alolita> then we have at least 5 community colleges in the area
15:10:06 <mchua> #link http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/POSSE_California_CS_Planning#Recruiting
15:10:17 <alolita> so we should try to get one prof from each of their information technology/computer science departments
15:10:23 <mchua> #info Mel has emailed Sameer Verma from SFSU for help spreading the word
15:10:33 <mchua> ...and that just about taps out my Bay Area prof contacts, but I'll keep looking.
15:10:36 <quaid> do we want to fill out this page?
15:10:37 <mchua> alolita: +1
15:10:38 <quaid> #link http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/POSSE_California_CS_Planning#School_contact_information
15:10:53 <alolita> mchua: yes - i saw that note - good note :-) i had spoken with sameer whom i know well
15:11:04 <mchua> Nice! Mm, small world.
15:11:12 <quaid> with a very few exceptions, I don't yet have any specific target professors
15:11:19 <alolita> and i am sure he will enlist once we get him to do a sugar lab
15:11:50 <quaid> my phase 1 is to reach out to all the open technical communities I know/am in, looking for a direct contact or a pass-on within a personal network
15:12:00 <alolita> sameer can help with some of the other profs in the area who engage in the sugar community with him
15:12:18 <quaid> so I think I have a wide shooting approach which may complement alolita's targeted approach.
15:12:31 <alolita> quaid: that's a good approach too
15:12:50 * quaid only has the one approach, so it's good that it's good :)
15:12:53 <alolita> quaid: have your personal contacts referred back to any of the other profs
15:13:12 <quaid> not yet, hoping I'll have something to report next week
15:13:28 * mchua is happy to take questions about the POSSE experience, etc. if any professors want to hear how the first few went.
15:13:54 <alolita> quaid: can you please connect into the community colleges (i think there are 1 or 2) in the santa cruz area who could participate
15:13:59 <mchua> one question I have is how we're "pitching" POSSE to these profs - open source community participation opportunities for their students first, and *then* the tools needed to support that experience?
15:14:25 * mchua doesn't want to give people the impression that it's only a tech bootcamp, because if they all come in already knowing IRC and packaging, I will be *thrilled*
15:14:29 <alolita> mchua: yes, that's the order i have been following
15:14:46 <mchua> that means we can spend more time introducing them to things like the review process, the release cycle, how to get their student projects in as features, etc
15:14:49 <quaid> alolita: definitely, I'll take Cabrillo College, not sure if there is another I should think about
15:15:11 <mchua> alolita: awesome. quaid, does that order sound about right to you as well?
15:15:13 <quaid> I'm looking for a UCSC contact
15:15:16 * mchua will ask spevack to ping stanford
15:15:17 <alolita> quaid: cabrillo college is a good one to target
15:15:47 <alolita> mchua: i would suggest speaking with the stanford lug folks - since the profs will be unlikely to participate
15:15:55 <quaid> we know people through the LUG there, yes
15:16:02 * quaid means at Cabrillo LUG
15:16:12 <mchua> alolita: I'll ask Max to check out the LUG as well as talking with his old profs - I think hitting as many fronts as we can is a good idea.
15:16:13 <alolita> quaid: great - good place to start :-)
15:16:50 <mchua> Should I accept the applicant we have? The application looks great - very openminded CS prof with a little Linux usage experience, but not contributor yet.
15:16:57 <alolita> mchua: i know a couple of folks at the stanford lug and they would be the most likely to provide some references at stanford
15:17:05 <quaid> good
15:17:12 <quaid> so we need a letter that can be passed along
15:17:18 <mchua> The caveat is that since this prof would be coming from NYC I'd want to have confidence that we *are* on before saying "yes, book your flight"
15:17:26 <mchua> s/NYC/NY
15:17:29 <alolita> the senior profs that i have spoken to weren't very keen
15:17:52 <quaid> I found myself wanting to rewrite the letter for myself, and above is my working bits
15:17:57 <quaid> I'll likely update it as I go :)
15:18:00 * mchua nods
15:18:02 <alolita> mchua: but do ask max for refs also :-)
15:18:11 * mchua would like to switch gears in ~2m so we can talk about the mini-workshop, too
15:18:28 <mchua> alolita: Ayup. I think junior faculty will likely be more keen to participate.
15:18:31 <quaid> alolita: I also heard you say that these senior profs wanted to bring their students in to working on FOSS virt, storage, etc.
15:18:34 <quaid> cloud, etc.
15:18:56 <quaid> alolita: did you discuss their plans for how they are going to do the "become an open source contributor" part for their students?
15:19:02 <alolita> mchua: i would recommend that we let the nyc prof know that we're recruiting right now so he can book whenever he can
15:19:03 <quaid> or are they thinking about grad students for that?
15:20:02 <alolita> quaid: yes the senior profs are more focused on research areas in open source - so virtualization, cloud computing, storage, security are all areas of their interest
15:20:05 * quaid fully understands POSSE covering ground that some (or even many in the Valley) professors may already know
15:20:33 <alolita> but as we discussed those are topics for another kind of posse
15:20:48 <mchua> or another kind of event... is this a good place to context-switch to the mini-workshop?
15:20:53 <quaid> alolita: did they share with you their plans for ...
15:20:58 <mchua> (do we know what we're all doing for recruitment in the next few days?)
15:21:04 <quaid> how to get students as actual contributors in open source projects?
15:21:23 <quaid> I'm curious because it directly affects how I think about recruiting.
15:21:29 <quaid> mchua: yes
15:22:22 <quaid> alolita: sorry about my continued confusion!  In my mind, POSSE in July could cover virtualization and cloud computer just fine, and how to get involved in those communities
15:22:37 <quaid> Dr. David Lutterkort lives in Berkeley and works extensively on virt for RHT
15:22:48 <alolita> quaid: the senior profs (at least in these schools) don't seem to emphasize contributing to open source projects - they're more comfortable with having specific research areas in specific technologies and having their students participate in working for them to be able to publish papers on these :-)
15:22:49 <quaid> we could get him down to instruct
15:23:26 <quaid> alolita: are those students who publish expected to work _within_ the open source technology communities?
15:23:30 <alolita> quaid: that's the idea - we select a particular area like virt - and we do a specific 2 day camp in that area - contributing in virt
15:23:31 <quaid> or is this research from without?
15:23:57 <quaid> alolita: so the expectation is that these profs and their students already know the basics of working an open source project?
15:24:03 <quaid> is that the part perceived as being too basic?
15:24:23 <alolita> quaid: i would think that some of these students would get involved in the open source projects but not immediately
15:24:33 <alolita> quaid: that part is being perceived as too basic - yes
15:24:35 <mchua> working on/with the technologies is different from knowing how to be an active participant in the communities that build those technologies, and the latter is what POSSE aims for.
15:24:44 <alolita> mchua: i know
15:24:55 <quaid> huh, interesting
15:25:19 <quaid> ok, thanks, that helps
15:25:31 <mchua> Ok, I think it's time to switch gears now, then, and see what we can do for those people with a mini-workshop pre-OSCON
15:25:39 <alolita> mchua: remember - these profs are interested in our not so favorite area - getting patents and recognition around technology areas that they publish in
15:25:56 <alolita> so their goals are different and we have to find points of convergence
15:26:04 <quaid> good seque
15:26:16 <mchua> alolita: Ayup. So lemme do a topic switch for the logging bot here...
15:26:20 <mchua> #topic mini-workshop
15:26:27 <quaid> so a short workshop introduces them to the idea that actual participation makes their other stuff better
15:26:36 <alolita> quaid: yes
15:26:40 <quaid> although patents and FOSS don't mix :)
15:26:41 <mchua> alolita: ok, go for it :)
15:26:46 <alolita> quaid: i know
15:26:56 * mchua is all ears - I'm really curious what you think this kind of workshop should look like
15:27:08 <mchua> since we have no constraints as to what it should cover
15:27:20 <alolita> mchua: so let's talk about a possible mini-workshop
15:27:59 <alolita> doing a two-day bootcamp on participating / contributing in virt
15:28:19 <alolita> starts fri evening with a dinner and intros
15:28:30 <alolita> then dives into details over sat and sun
15:28:53 <alolita> we have pre-reqs - such as knowing the tools already (irc, bugzilla, svn etc)
15:28:59 <mchua> Ok - and do this the weekend before OSCON, up in Portland, to try and get people for that?
15:29:56 <mchua> +1 for prereqs.
15:29:58 <alolita> mchua: yes - before or after - whichever works for the OSL folks
15:30:49 * mchua nods, I can do either (though it's a little easier before)
15:30:52 <mchua> quaid: ^?
15:31:12 <mchua> alolita: What audience would we be targeting? the profs you've spoken to who have different needs than what a POSSE serves?
15:31:19 * mchua trying to get a feel for where we're aiming
15:31:24 <alolita> so in the current posse curriculum we have - we have three distinct focal areas: open source culture, open source tools, actually going thru the process of committing a bug/patch
15:31:39 <mchua> it seemed like they were more interested in a tech deep-dive, which would mean we'd really want to get someone like lutter in to be a "I made this stuff, I know everything about it" guru
15:32:11 <mchua> alolita: yep, all with the framing of "how does this work within the context of the classes that you teach"
15:32:15 <mchua> alolita: maybe that's the difference - classes vs research
15:32:53 <alolita> mchua: mel - the feedback i have gotten is from profs from the schools in the bay area - i think doing the camp in portland would pull in other profs not these research profs :-)
15:33:16 <mchua> Ah, ok
15:33:47 <alolita> so should we focus on the two day specialized bootcamp for the research profs or the two day version of our current curriculum for oscon profs
15:33:55 <alolita> i see them as two distinct groups
15:34:27 <mchua> alolita: I agree they're two distinct groups, and think we should focus on whichever one you think would be more productive - the sense I get is that quaid and I are mostly trying to just follow your lead here, for the mini-camp.
15:34:37 <mchua> it seems like you're the person with the clearest idea of what you'd like it to be.
15:35:04 <alolita> mchua: well at oscon i see the following :-)
15:35:09 <mchua> I'm mostly trying to figure out "hm, okay - what bases does POSSE /not/ cover, and what needs to happen in this other workshop so those bases do get covered somehow?"
15:35:29 <alolita> 1. get osu-osl to help us get profs involved within their network
15:35:41 <alolita> 2. get the word out that we're doing a 2 day camp around oscon
15:35:51 <alolita> 3. any other profs are welcome to join in
15:36:55 <alolita> 4. the format is a 2-day camp with pre-reqs of knowing the tools so that they can focus on walking through the process doing a patch / committing a bug
15:37:33 <mchua> to any particular kind of project? focus on virt, or have profs come in with a target foss community based on their research interest?
15:37:54 <alolita> 5. we also focus on areas of direct interest from them in curricula - what areas do they teach where we can work with them to do oss labs
15:38:28 * mchua nods
15:39:01 <alolita> 6. yes we could focus on virt - but at oscon / osl - we would have to gauge what their (profs) depth is - i.e. are they deep into virt or cloud or security
15:39:20 <mchua> alolita: Do you think we could find that out ahead of time?
15:39:26 <mchua> (how many attendees are you thinking?)
15:39:38 <alolita> about 10
15:39:49 <alolita> if we get more - that's very good
15:39:50 * mchua trying to figure out how we'd get domain experts from all these open source communities if we have a wide range of research interests to cover
15:40:02 <quaid> mchua: sorry, thought we'd discussed my participation before -- I cannot do anything after OSCON, and the weekend before I'm primarily at CLS, but I can break away for teaching, meeting, etc.
15:40:19 <mchua> alolita: ok. can we top that out at, say, 15? since it's the first time we'll be doing it, and there'll be only 2 of us physically present.
15:40:22 <alolita> mchua: actually i would again ask you not to focus on research at oscon -
15:40:50 <alolita> let's focus on one area at the most
15:40:53 <alolita> at oscon
15:41:08 <mchua> quaid: aye, just confirming :) if we can double this up with CLS that would be nice, so you could swing by and say hi (and vice versa)
15:41:22 <alolita> yes - cls is a good place to do this too
15:41:26 <mchua> alolita: Ok, and when/how do we pick that area?
15:41:48 <alolita> let's suggest the areas to the osl folks and ask them
15:42:08 <alolita> there are three areas that i have been hearing about repeatedly
15:42:23 <alolita> virtualization, cloud computing, security
15:42:38 <mchua> #idea potential topics for mini-bootcamp: virt, cloud, security
15:42:41 <alolita> i think all areas are good but cloud would be the crowd-puller
15:42:51 <alolita> pullers
15:43:04 <alolita> sorry :-)
15:43:39 * mchua nods. If we know far enough in advance we might be able to get an engineer up there with us, to help deep-dive into the tech.
15:43:45 <alolita> since there is a lot of activity on the west coast in the cloud space and rht is doing some cool stuff integrating rhel into the cloud - there is at least half a day of discussion there
15:43:51 <alolita> for a starter camp
15:44:01 <mchua> alolita: want to ask the OSL folks and pick a topic, say, sometime next week?
15:44:14 <mchua> then quaid and I can ask around wrt who from RHT (or elsewhere) can come up to be our tech gurus
15:44:20 <mchua> since I don't do cloud dev myself :)
15:44:26 <alolita> sure
15:44:45 <alolita> mchua: we can get folks from eucalyptus or hadoop also
15:44:47 <mchua> #action alolita to talk with OSL and pick a topic (cloud, virt, or security) by end of next week
15:44:50 <mchua> alolita: yes!
15:45:00 <Jeff_S> who's the target audience?
15:45:02 <alolita> but let's plan step at a time - get the ball rolling with osl
15:45:12 <alolita> jeff_s: hi!
15:45:13 <Jeff_S> ie. how technical is this?
15:45:16 <Jeff_S> alolita: hola
15:45:28 <Jeff_S> my ears were itching ;)
15:45:54 <alolita> jeff_s: the level would be introductory - intermediate
15:46:06 <Jeff_S> we have a lot of (technical) virtualization expertese
15:46:37 <quaid> contribution expertise?
15:46:40 <alolita> jeff_s: that's fantastic - so it could actually be intermediate to expert
15:47:00 <alolita> jeff_s: could we get some of your experts to participate
15:47:01 <Jeff_S> contribution?  to what?
15:47:05 <Jeff_S> alolita: surely
15:47:22 <alolita> jeff_s: cool :-)
15:47:35 <mchua> yay!
15:47:42 <quaid> Jeff_S: goal of a POSSE event is to teach how to contribute/participate in FOSS projects.
15:47:44 <alolita> quaid: contribution comes later, participation first :-)
15:47:52 <quaid> so I was asking which type of expert, that's all
15:47:53 <Jeff_S> quaid: yeah, that's what I'm trying to grasp, thanks :)
15:48:18 <Jeff_S> but then why concentrate on cloud/virt/security?  I feel like I'm missing something
15:48:57 <alolita> jeff_s: actually we're talking about two separate camps at the same time
15:49:19 <quaid> well, actually, I was just trying to understand which type of expert jeff meant
15:49:31 <alolita> quaid: ok
15:49:40 <quaid> #link http://iquaid.org/2009/04/14/community-sets/
15:50:10 <quaid> the pyramid of participation -- we are trying to get people from consumer to participant, where they can see value of contributing, but it helps if some of the instructors are versed in contributing :)
15:50:14 <alolita> jeff_s: who would be the right person(s) to work with at osl? would you be able to help?
15:50:17 <Jeff_S> quaid: well most all of our students/staff contribute in some fashion to various projects
15:50:37 <Jeff_S> alolita: I'm glad to help.  just trying to figure out exactly what's desired
15:51:09 * quaid agrees with Jeff_S on OSU/OSL contrib experience, should be a good fit
15:51:23 <alolita> jeff_s: that's really great! it is a great fit
15:51:56 <quaid> alolita: what do the OSL folks do for the class?
15:53:05 * quaid means during the class session, although recruiting is also part of it
15:54:25 <alolita> quaid: we would jointly with osl select one area that is of interest to their profs/students such as virtualization and walk through doing a patch / bugfix in that area; and also walkthrough the latest in virtualization technologies which comes directly from one of rht's engineer gurus
15:54:57 <alolita> assuming that the participants already use the standard oss tools -
15:56:03 <Jeff_S> hmm, it just seems to me if you are trying to teach people about how to interact (and potentially contribute) with OSS communities, that such a highly-technical topic such as virutalization/cloud/etc. is not a good place to start.  It will derail the conversation because everyone will start talking "cloud"
15:56:17 <Jeff_S> but I've never gone to a POSSE, so I'm not sure what the norm is
15:56:23 <Jeff_S> I apoligize :)
15:56:41 <alolita> jeff_s: yes that is the idea if we were to specialize around a specific area
15:57:02 <mchua> Jeff_S: Well, this workshop is different from a POSSE (for a POSSE, I agree - it's why we try to choose large projects with a diverse set of low-barrier-to-entry contribution options).
15:57:26 <alolita> mchua: can you describe the current posse layout
15:57:33 <alolita> i.e. the focal areas
15:57:38 <mchua> Jeff_S: however, alolita has been pointing out that there are some professors with needs that aren't filled by the POSSE format, so this smaller 3-day workshop would be targeted to them - I'm also still trying to figure out what that means, honestly.
15:58:16 <alolita> mchua: the specialized topics I have outlined are coming purely from feedback in the Bay Area schools
15:58:23 <mchua> alolita: Sure - once instance of the POSSE curriculum is at http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/POSSE_2009#Topic_Schedule, but that's almost like saying "here's the schedule that we ran for a Barcamp"
15:58:41 <mchua> because no two POSSEs are alike. The best way to get a feel for the event is really http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/POSSE_Blogs.
15:59:16 <mchua> The purpose of POSSE is to immerse profs in an open source community - it's cultural immersion, process immersion, getting a feel for what it means to become a contributor and what sort of scaffolding is available and what would need to be constructed
15:59:23 <mchua> for the students in their classes to participate.
15:59:25 <alolita> mchua: so the posse curriculum we do with OSL could be more like what we do now
15:59:43 <mchua> because that's the ultimate goal - for professors who want to bring the students in their classes into FOSS contribution, how do they do that?
16:00:13 <alolita> mchua: yes
16:00:23 <mchua> a big part of that is learning the processes (i.e. code reviews, how to submit a patch, etc) and to do that you need to know the tools (version control, etc)
16:00:41 <mchua> but you also get introduced to a network of collaborators that you can then ping during the semester to work with your students
16:00:53 <mchua> and above all, you get a feel for what it means to be "productive lost" in an open source community
16:01:00 <mchua> how to react to what's going on around you, how to tell what's happening
16:01:10 <mchua> which is why it's so difficult to describe what will happen in any given POSSE in advance
16:01:15 <mchua> and why we need a full week for it.
16:01:26 <mchua> alolita: not sure if that was the sort of explanation you were looking for.
16:01:51 <Jeff_S> so in Portland there are enough local developers, I think it would make sense to get one or two "local" projects involved to come out and interact with the profs
16:01:54 <alolita> mchua: that's an excellent overview :-)
16:02:10 <alolita> jeff_s: yes i agree
16:02:33 <quaid> Puppet!
16:02:41 <Jeff_S> we could even get maybe a small project and a large project
16:03:02 <Jeff_S> quaid: yeah, that may be a good one :)  or ie. caligator, or even meego perhaps
16:03:17 <quaid> oh, yeah, forgot about the Intel folk there
16:03:21 <alolita> jeff_s: would a two-day camp format work for you
16:03:42 <alolita> quaid: the intel folks would be great too but may make the program pretty complex
16:03:47 <Jeff_S> alolita: that seems good to me
16:04:04 <mchua> Jeff_S: yes! we have a traditional Thursday night POSSE dinner where we invite all the local FOSS folks we can find to come hang out with the profs, but being able to do that more throughout the week would be even more awesome (for a POSSE, not sure if the same applies to this workshop as well).
16:04:04 <Jeff_S> alolita: well, I would think more like bring their community manager for meego, and maybe a dev or two
16:04:32 <alolita> jeff_s: we could get Dawn Foster, community mgr for Meego
16:04:33 <Jeff_S> mchua: cool
16:04:40 <alolita> she is based in Portland
16:04:49 <Jeff_S> alolita: yeah, I'm meeting her for lunch today, I can see if she might be interested
16:05:03 <alolita> for a session - excellent - please ask her
16:05:57 <alolita> if they could do a session (~2 hours) on contributing to meego
16:06:06 <quaid> ok, I have to go
16:06:11 <quaid> I'll check the logs later
16:06:23 <alolita> quaid: i have to go too soon :-) ~ 10 mins
16:06:26 * mchua too
16:06:47 <mchua> alolita: I'm not sure where this leaves us wrt the focus/target/design for the mini-bootcamp.
16:07:03 <alolita> jeff_s: should we follow-up on email?
16:07:08 <mchua> alolita: You're picking a target area of focus sometime this week - but beyond that, I'm fuzzy on how we move forward.
16:07:22 <mchua> alolita: can you write a descript/summary of what you're thinking, and I'll try to wrap my head around that?
16:07:26 <mchua> alolita: maybe to the TOS list?
16:07:33 <Jeff_S> +1 to that
16:07:38 <alolita> mchua: yes certainly I will do that :-)
16:07:43 <mchua> alolita: thanks!
16:07:45 * mchua will watch the list then.
16:08:16 <mchua> alolita: my apologies for being so slow to grasp this :) I'm trying to understand what it is you're aiming for, since it's different from the way I'm thinking about this space
16:08:17 <alolita> mchua: that's cool :-) so let's do that and touch base same time next week?
16:08:21 <mchua> (but that's also why I'm interested in it!)
16:08:25 <mchua> alolita: Can do.
16:08:30 * mchua makes note on calendar
16:08:31 <mchua> quaid: ^
16:08:36 <mchua> (when you read backscroll)
16:08:43 <alolita> mchua: fantastic!
16:09:21 <mchua> alolita: and by then I'll have read your initial draft, so hopefully I'll be able to start charging towards it with you more usefully then.
16:09:24 * mchua has to jet
16:09:26 <mchua> thanks, alolita.
16:09:32 <alolita> mchua, quaid, jeff_s: thanks for listening! let's make progress :-)
16:09:41 <alolita> bye for now!
16:09:44 <mchua> #endmeeting