17:29:34 <mchua> #startmeeting
17:29:34 <zodbot> Meeting started Mon Aug 16 17:29:34 2010 UTC.  The chair is mchua. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
17:29:34 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
17:29:35 <quaid> so mchua ... I want to get us back in mind to the last confab we had by the pool about the textbook
17:29:36 <mchua> #chair quaid
17:29:36 <zodbot> Current chairs: mchua quaid
17:29:39 * mchua nods
17:29:47 <mchua> quaid: wanna start with a braindump and I'll join you in a min?
17:29:51 <quaid> I want to get us back in mind to the last confab we had by the pool about the textbook
17:29:55 <quaid> ok
17:30:07 <quaid> um, what's your favorite etherpad URL right now and I'll start a new one?
17:30:21 <quaid> #info http://www.teachingopensource.org/index.php/Textbook_Project
17:30:27 <quaid> new elevator pitches there
17:30:50 <quaid> #info http://www.teachingopensource.org/index.php/Practical_OSS_Exploration_textbook_0.8.1_planning
17:31:01 <quaid> and planning going on there, but that is only what I have found in my notes so far.
17:35:10 <mchua> #link http://openetherpad.org/tos-textbook-roadmap
17:35:11 <mchua> quaid: ^
17:36:13 <quaid> ok thx
17:39:33 <JonathanD> mchua: do you mind/have time to join #fosscon and chat with cprof a bit?
17:39:45 <mchua> JonathanD: In a bit, when quaid and I are done with the roadmap
17:39:49 <JonathanD> ok
17:39:51 <JonathanD> sounds good
17:40:04 <mchua> JonathanD: I'm not sure how long it'll take, though - quaid, target to push to list at... say, quarter-past?
17:40:09 <mchua> that gives us a bit over 30m
17:45:07 <mchua> quaid: oh, did you have notes from our poolside session?
17:45:09 <mchua> personas etc
17:45:11 <mchua> typed up somewhere?
17:46:04 * quaid points upwards
17:46:10 <quaid> second URL I linked
17:46:21 <quaid> but it feels like it's missing something
17:47:22 <mchua> Oh! Sorry, yeah
17:47:29 * mchua looks
17:47:43 <mchua> quaid: I think I wrote the process I described to you in etherpad
17:48:33 <quaid> oh, cool!!
17:48:36 <mchua> quaid: Ok - so we... mostly need to do learning objectives, it looks like
17:48:48 <mchua> quaid: (I'll merge the etherpad doc into that wiki page when we're done)
17:48:56 <mchua> quaid: and the learning objectives will give us the chapters we need to fill in
17:49:02 <mchua> quaid: does that sound... about right?
17:49:23 <mchua> the learning objectives will also give us the scope of what we need to do (how big this project is)
17:49:37 <mchua> and I'm not sure what the balance of your time looks like for the fall term wrt how much textbook time you have, do you know that yet?
17:49:50 <quaid> yes, and which objectives we might have missed
17:49:54 <mchua> (textbook/tosw... I'm not sure how much the two merge together in your mind)
17:49:57 * mchua nods
17:49:58 <mchua> for instance, IRC
17:50:00 <mchua> is kinda missing there
17:50:01 <quaid> they emerge, yes
17:50:18 <quaid> textbook is the reference book for the chapter "Education the open source way" :)
17:50:22 <quaid> reference implementation, that is
17:50:23 <mchua> Gotcha.
17:50:24 <mchua> Okay.
17:50:37 <quaid> so figure 50/50 or something, for now
17:50:59 <mchua> quaid: wait, you had other stuff on your plate too other than tosw and textbook, right?
17:51:39 <mchua> oh, I guess I'm worrying too much about it - "Karsten and I both have a decent chunk of time during the fall term to work on this" should be pretty sufficient
17:51:59 <mchua> quaid: Okay, er... (sorry, I'm a little floundery today, getting back on my feet at somewhat high velocity)
17:52:15 <mchua> quaid: in your opinion, what are the... say... top... 3-5 learning objectives for the entire textbook?
17:52:30 <mchua> as in, "at the end of reading this / taking the class based on it, students should be able to... <FOO>"
17:52:35 <mchua> 5 most important values for FOO
17:52:55 * mchua sketches up hers
17:58:43 <quaid> so 5 is sufficient?
17:59:28 <mchua> quaid: Uh... we're going to need more than 5, but I thought we might want to start by focusing on just a few
17:59:33 <mchua> while we're still sort of working out the process for ourselves
17:59:51 <mchua> so I was trying to find out which learning objectives do you consider to be the most important ("if we get nothing else done...")
18:00:45 <mchua> quaid: Here are mine (just typed)
18:01:15 <mchua> * Persistently and politely ask a well-targeted question for help working on a FOSS project in the IRC channel an experienced contributor to that project would hang out in until an answer is received. (Inferred: Know how to find the IRC channel and the person you should ask.)
18:01:23 <mchua> 2. Document a walkthrough of the help received in that IRC channel on the project's wiki page. (Inferred: find the wiki and know how to use it)
18:01:29 <mchua> 3. Post the URL of the walkthrough they just wrote to the project's mailing list in a call-to-action way that generates further feedback and response. (Inferred: find the mailing list and know how to use it.)
18:01:34 <mchua> 4. Blog a reflection on the experience - the help you got, where you wrote it up, what you were able to do with the new things you've learned - and have it find its way to your class planet, the project's planet, or both. (Inferred: Have a blog and know how to get it on a planet.)
18:01:59 <mchua> 5. Organize or attend an in-person or remote hackathon for the project you are working on
18:02:04 <mchua> quaid: that's mine - yours?
18:02:12 <mchua> (imagine the first one had a number next to it...)
18:02:30 <mchua> quaid: that's also in order of priority (and sequence) for me
18:02:41 <mchua> i.e. "if they walk away only learning one thing, it's question-asking on IRC"
18:02:57 <mchua> Jefro, JonathanD, et al: comments welcome
18:03:00 <mchua> this'll be shot to the list for thoughts
18:03:28 <Jefro> mchua howdy! just joining
18:04:12 * mchua waves to Jefro
18:04:21 <JonathanD> mchua: I'm not sure I'm entirely clear... part of teh first point seems to be on how to ask/answer questions, yes?
18:04:32 <mchua> Jefro: quaid and I were talking about the textbook/curriculum for TOS, trying to figure out what the most high-priority learning objectives are for it
18:04:45 <mchua> JonathanD: Yes, it's both a cultural thing and a tools thing.
18:04:47 <JonathanD> oh, I see
18:04:55 <JonathanD> ask a question, document the process, post a walkthrough.
18:05:00 <mchua> JonathanD: Yep yep.
18:05:25 <mchua> Basically "if you were standing in front of a group of teachers and students and you would only get to see them that one time and you could only teach them ONE THING what would you want them to be able to do when you walk away?"
18:05:29 <mchua> and for me, it's "learn how to learn"
18:05:44 <mchua> and those 5 steps are how I articulate "learn how to learn more" in open source communities.
18:05:46 <quaid> mchua: oh, sorry, was working elsewhere, and also on etherpad
18:05:47 <mchua> ymmb.
18:05:50 <mchua> er, ymmv.
18:05:55 <Jefro> mchua - I sort of had that experience this weekend with SETI (quaid was there as well)
18:06:06 <sdziallas> Jefro: hiya! I... will nag about videos from time to time. :)
18:06:18 <mchua> WAIT THERE WERE VIDEOS?
18:06:20 <Jefro> and now feel that I missed several important things.
18:06:21 <mchua> I DEMAND VIDEOS
18:06:27 <mchua> (and trip reports *coughcough*)
18:06:35 <Jefro> sdziallas :) I am just looking at them now & trying to figure out how to share
18:06:39 <mchua> quaid: Oh, sorry, I shoulda hollered...
18:06:47 <quaid> s'ok
18:06:48 <Jefro> mchua Mo published a *great* report of the day on her blog
18:06:55 <quaid> those are very specific learning objectives
18:07:00 <mchua> Jefro: I have not seen that yet. I'll read it eventually, I think.
18:07:10 <mchua> quaid: Yeah, learning objectives need to be specific - they must be measurable.
18:07:10 <quaid> I thought they were more generic in tone, then diff. chapter parts would implement them
18:07:20 <mchua> quaid: so you can tell whether the objective was, in fact, learned :)
18:07:23 <mchua> lemme see if I can find examples
18:07:26 <mchua> there are people who do this better than I do...
18:07:29 <sdziallas> Jefro: !!!!! this is an *awesome* report.
18:07:46 <Jefro> mchua link to etherpad? I can join for just a little bit - already have 3 deadlines looming today, too many *()&^ conferences
18:07:50 <mchua> 1.
18:07:50 <mchua> Behavior. The behavior should be specific and observable.
18:07:50 <mchua> 2.
18:07:50 <mchua> Condition. The conditions under which the behavior is to be completed should be stated, including what tools or assistance is to be provided.
18:07:54 <mchua> 3.
18:07:56 <mchua> Standard. The level of performance that is desirable should be stated, including an acceptable range of answers that are allowable as correct.
18:08:00 <mchua> quaid: ^^ criteria for good learning objectives
18:08:03 <mchua> Jefro: sure! http://openetherpad.org/tos-textbook-roadmap
18:11:18 <Jefro> continuing chat here for public involvement - one thing I noticed this weekend (in a summit introducing open source concepts to SETI and helping them plot a roadmap) was a need for an elevator-pitch style introduction to open source.  Pamphlet, maybe.  I.e something that boils down TOSW and your textbook into a page or two.
18:11:38 <Jefro> However, I don't want to derail the current conversation
18:12:17 <mchua> Jefro: Nah, keep it going, it's all good :)
18:12:18 <mchua> quaid: thoughts?
18:12:21 <Jefro> The stuff on etherpad looks very positive
18:13:52 <mchua> Jefro: The "learning objectives" we're talking about are http://web.mit.edu/tll/teaching-materials/learning-objectives/index-learning-objectives.html
18:13:56 <mchua> quaid: ^ that's a good reference
18:14:05 <Jefro> ok, looking
18:14:39 <Jefro> I recall seeing something very similar 20 yrs ago at UCSC
18:16:21 <quaid> Jefro: you are welcome to work on crafting something on tosw.org, which we can put in to some kind of pamphlet
18:16:32 <quaid> once we have some words and diagram sketches, we can work on getting real design :)
18:16:50 <mchua> Jefro: Ooo, really? what's that?
18:17:08 <mchua> (what you saw at UCSC)
18:17:14 <mchua> JonathanD: I'll join you in #fosscon as promised, hang on
18:17:17 <JonathanD> ok
18:17:44 <JonathanD> learn how to learn, a great point and very useful.
18:17:44 <mchua> quaid: I'd like to wrap up and push something to the list... I'd like to figure out the highest-priority learning objectives and then a short-term sprint schedule for what we're each going to do with them
18:17:46 <Jefro> quaid: I'd love to & might do just that. I had a fascinating conversation on the plane home from LinuxCon with a guy from <large company not to be named> who said he had a heck of a time convincing his managers about open source concepts - and this is a company that has been using linux widely since about 1999
18:17:55 <JonathanD> mchua: I've written up some stuff on "how to ask questions on irc"
18:18:04 <mchua> quaid: but I don't want to make you feel rushed - I know I'm racing along at a bajillion miles an hour here, probably
18:18:10 <JonathanD> and also this which is only related a little bit from the other direction: http://libreplanet.org/wiki/Women%27s_Caucus/Resources/IRC
18:18:16 <mchua> JonathanD: Oo, thanks!
18:18:24 <Jefro> mchua re the UCSC thing, it was just a printed paper on learning objectives passed around to TAs. I think the one I saw was for English Lit.
18:18:33 <mchua> JonathanD: are the "how to ask questions" things online somewhere?
18:18:34 <JonathanD> mchua: the above about hosting a channel that doesn't scare people off.
18:18:39 * mchua nods
18:18:40 <mchua> oh, awesome.
18:18:43 <JonathanD> mchua: they may be, but I'm not sure.
18:18:49 <JonathanD> if not I think I have some of it in google docs
18:18:53 <JonathanD> and I'll make it available.
18:19:12 * mchua nods - thanks, JonathanD!
18:19:38 <JonathanD> I'm somewhat disorganized since i moved all my stuff to the home server :)
18:19:53 <JonathanD> whihc of course I shut down this AM, we have a guy doing work at the house and I needed it off.
18:20:01 <quaid> mchua: I need to absorb the learning objectives a bit
18:20:05 * mchua nods
18:20:07 <Jefro> this is similar, possibly an outgrowth of the ad hoc thing I saw when I was in college:  http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBYQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fctl.ucsc.edu%2Fgrants%2Fdocs%2Flearning_objectives.pdf&ei=DIFpTKnNM4ScsQPE-OjUBw&usg=AFQjCNFlyq89gnLtAFLBNXttUZXPyNl1Hg&sig2=Jt4SGOODev3rl7qZTQfDlg
18:20:11 <mchua> quaid: np, just ping me when you're ready
18:20:12 <Jefro> sorry for ugly google url
18:20:38 <mchua> quaid: I think my anxiety right now mostly comes from "but I have to get my OSDC/edu article on POSSE published sometime today also"
18:20:39 <quaid> I'm just not seeing them as being simple to produce, in that we'll have many dozens in the textbook
18:20:44 <quaid> do that instead
18:20:51 <quaid> then come back to this
18:20:54 <mchua> quaid: Yeah, they are not simple to produce at all, and there will be many in the textbook.
18:20:57 <quaid> and don't go hang out in #fosscon yet :)
18:21:06 <mchua> quaid: eeeeeeerrh too late? *sheepish grin*
18:21:37 <quaid> right, I thought it was a "handful of things that we can then use to describe all the stuff we do in the chapters"
18:21:50 <Jefro> mchua I agree with quaid - best way to reduce stress is to focus on one thing, get it done
18:21:57 <quaid> now I see a 1:1 correlation - each section of each chapter needs a learning objective written for it
18:22:02 * Jefro says "do as I say, not as I do"
18:22:17 <Jefro> quaid agreed & here's another link on that subject:  http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Developing_Learning_Objectives
18:22:21 <JonathanD> mchua: lame as it sounds, teaching how to properly do searches is very valuable.
18:22:34 <JonathanD> Stuff I tend to take for granted I routinely see other folks fight with.
18:23:56 <quaid> mchua: I'm resisting the idea of a short list and sprint, for some reason -- I think I envision just listing all the objectives we have so far (reverse engineering existing book), and then seeing where the holes are, then fill them.
18:24:14 <quaid> but let me absorb more information first before I lay out an actual opinion :)
18:24:23 <quaid> this is harder in some ways since the book exists already, in some ways
18:25:23 <quaid> JonathanD: teaching how to search +1
18:25:52 * mchua grins
18:25:57 <Jefro> JonathanD I agree - I could use some best-practices myself
18:26:03 <mchua> Okay, I'm going to ghost a bit and get that darn article out. :)
18:49:44 <Jefro> question for the crowd - where would YOU go to post 9GB of video from the LinuxCon Education Mini-Summit?
18:50:56 <sdziallas> Jefro: if you cut it, and don't mind non-OSS stuff, maybe vimeo.com?
18:51:27 <sdziallas> Jefro: er, no. that gives you 500MB. oupsi. :)
18:51:46 <Jefro> I could possibly cut each vid down to 500mb chunks
18:52:01 <Jefro> that's about 1/2 hr, which is much better than youtube's 10 minute limit
18:52:35 <sdziallas> Jefro: or maybe blip.tv? although I dunno where their limit is.
18:52:43 <Jefro> since they are already MP4, though, it might be easier to host them somewhere else. I'll ask permission from work to host them on our new embedded Linux community.
18:53:17 <sdziallas> I /me nods.
18:53:24 <sdziallas> (and I apparently can't type.)
18:55:17 <quaid> Jefro: tos.org?
18:55:36 <quaid> ctyler: we have much disk space at teachingopensource.org?
18:55:50 <quaid> Jefro: as a canonical home, tos.org would make more sense
18:56:04 <quaid> put them up under CC BY and then folks can cut, edit, and post stuff on youtube or vimeo
18:56:16 <Jefro> is there that much room on tos.org?
18:56:35 <Jefro> room = both disk space and server bandwidth
18:57:17 <Jefro> someone else will have to edit, sadly - my machine does not edit well
18:57:24 <JonathanD> Jefro: I could potentially host it for you.
18:57:48 <JonathanD> But only if you don't need any sort of control system for it
18:59:05 <Jefro> JonathanD No control system at all, just want to get the vids up so people can see them
18:59:47 <JonathanD> I have substantial excesses of bought and paid for hosting. Give me a few.
19:00:03 <quaid> Jefro: well, tos.org is on a virtual machine right now
19:00:24 <quaid> we could ask Jeff_S to host them at a temp. URL for now, which we could redirect to from tos.org?
19:00:33 <quaid> OSUOSL has teh banwidthz
19:04:50 <Jefro> quaid - it might be best for me to upload to JonathanD's server and then redirect from tos.org
19:12:50 <quaid> Jefro: I was just thinking of "place once in closest to canonical location"
19:12:56 <quaid> after all, it was a TOS-organized event, right?
19:14:38 <Jefro> quaid - yup
19:15:22 <Jefro> Jeff_S if you have a URL/creds/etc, just let me know.  it'll take me a full day to upload.  :)
19:26:03 <Jeff_S> Jefro: videos?  how big are they?  what are they of exactly?  sorry, been afk and just saw my name :)
19:30:14 <Jefro> Jeff_S no prob - I have about 9GB of MP4 videos (taken with a flip camera) of the Education mini-summit we gave at LinuxCon
19:30:35 <Jefro> and many requests to host them :)  we discussed and figured tos.org was the most logical place
19:32:43 <Jeff_S> Jefro: ok, should be do-able.  let me open up a support ticket.  what's your email?
19:35:46 <Jefro> Jeff_S I'm at jefro@jefro.net
19:39:57 <Jeff_S> Jefro: request submitted -- the systems guys will be in touch to set you up with access
19:40:19 <Jeff_S> we have 3 ftp servers, you'll upload to one and then there's typically a trigger script to push out your uploads to the other servers
19:42:54 <Jeff_S> they'll end up at something like http://ftp.osuosl.org/pub/teachingopensource/<you control this directory>
19:49:35 <Jefro> Jeff_S: excellent, thanks - got the ticket notice & will keep an eye out for credentials
19:50:01 <Jeff_S> Jefro: if you have a ssh pub key and send that w/ a prefered username it will speed things up
19:50:09 <Jeff_S> (reply to the ticket w/ those I mean)
19:51:17 <Jefro> Jeff_S: feel like walking me through generating a public key?
19:51:29 <Jeff_S> Jefro: are you on a linux box?
19:51:39 <Jefro> yep
19:52:44 <Jeff_S> Jefro: run 'ssh-keygen'  (I use -t rsa, but that's personal preference.  dsa keys are fine).  That'll prompt you for some stuff -- be sure to use a passphrase! And then it'll spit out a private and public key into your .ssh directory
19:53:05 <Jeff_S> the public key will be id_[rd]sa.pub  rsa/dsa will depend on what you choose to generate
19:53:30 <Jefro> ok, thanks
19:53:43 <Jeff_S> you can just paste the .pub key in an email (we have a problem with attachments sent to the support address at the moment)
19:54:33 * quaid gasps and prepares for a year of teasing Jefro about not yet having an sshkey ;-P
19:54:57 <Jeff_S> hahaha
19:55:04 <quaid> Jeff_S: thanks,I figured it would make most sense to put Big Load of Files up where it will end up anyway
19:55:07 <Jeff_S> he'll have one now ;)
19:55:11 <quaid> aye
19:55:21 <quaid> also means he must not have a Fedora contributor account
19:55:39 * quaid did notice the Ubuntu User magazine sticker on Jefro's laptop the other day ...
19:55:40 <Jeff_S> quaid: np.  For larger files I'd rather host them on the FTPs than on the virtual machine anyway, so this works out great
19:55:59 <quaid> excellent, and I agree, +1 on ftp backend
20:06:44 <Jefro> quaid I have no need for keys - radical transparency!
20:07:56 <Jefro> (this laptop boots Ubuntu, Fedora, and openSUSE as well as Windows XP... fedora sticker on inside, opensuse sticker was too big)
20:08:21 <Jefro> I believe I had a Fedora contrib acct a few years ago but have gotten busy & forgotten about it
20:08:34 <Jefro> not that that should affect the year of teasing, just sayin
20:09:04 <quaid> Jefro: well, Fedora accounts don't require sshkey to start, but you can't get very far without one.
20:11:42 <quaid> Jefro: radical transparency is helped, though, when you know and can prove who is being transparent :)
20:12:08 <Jefro> hey all - Lance says they are already hosting videos from LinuxCon & can we use that acct
20:12:27 <Jefro> any reasons why not?
20:14:23 <Jeff_S> Jefro: sorry, I'm clarifying that with Lance.  I think we want this separate.
20:14:43 <Jeff_S> and I don't think linuxfoundation wants to lump these in with their "official" videos
20:19:46 <Jefro> Jeff_S ok
20:20:08 <quaid> word
20:46:39 <JonathanD> quaid, mwhitehe
20:46:41 <JonathanD> OOPS
20:46:49 <JonathanD> quaid: mchua_afk, I have some nicely timed stuff for you :)
20:46:51 <JonathanD> http://princessleia.com/journal/?p=3248
20:59:18 <quaid> oh, yeah, I think I saw but didn't dig in to that post
20:59:21 <quaid> thanks JonathanD
21:00:35 <JonathanD> it's pretty nicely done.
21:10:32 <quaid> ok, so I think I have learning objectives modeled in my brain
21:13:10 <quaid> what I need to so is to reverse engineer what we've been doing in the textbook so far
22:35:05 <quaid> ok ... I finally sent out that textbook email I've been needing to send all week :)
22:35:19 <quaid> and now http://www.teachingopensource.org/index.php/Practical_OSS_Exploration_textbook_0.8.1_planning has all our updated planning
22:35:25 <quaid> #link http://www.teachingopensource.org/index.php/Practical_OSS_Exploration_textbook_0.8.1_planning
22:35:30 <quaid> #endmeeting