19:26:14 <mchua> #startmeeting
19:26:14 <zodbot> Meeting started Tue Sep  7 19:26:14 2010 UTC.  The chair is mchua. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
19:26:14 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
19:26:27 <mchua> #meetingname posse sigcse 2010
19:26:27 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'posse_sigcse_2010'
19:27:07 <mchua> #link http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/SIGCSE_2011/Panel_proposal
19:31:23 * mchua brb
20:01:23 * mchua is back
20:01:34 * mchua attacks the SIGCSE stuff
20:09:54 <KarlieRobinson> Hey mchua - had class today at RIT
20:10:00 <KarlieRobinson> got off to a great start
20:10:41 <mchua> Hey KarlieRobinson! Good to hear!
20:10:50 <mchua> Dave_S is teaching again, right?
20:10:51 <jadudm> mchua: I think we had a minor wiki collision. Make sure I didn't clobber you in some way. :/
20:10:55 <mchua> jadudm: Yessir.
20:11:01 <mchua> KarlieRobinson: Where are they hanging out, #sugar?
20:11:04 <KarlieRobinson> Yes, Dave_S
20:11:08 <jadudm> Hm. That smiley looks aggressive on my client. :-|
20:11:10 <mchua> Excellent.
20:11:14 * mchua chuckles
20:11:24 <KarlieRobinson> Not yet
20:11:28 <mchua> I'm on irssi so it's all text for me, jadudm :)
20:11:35 <KarlieRobinson> today we went over the housekeeping sorts of things
20:11:53 <KarlieRobinson> Thurs, no class during the day because it's Pythonista night
20:11:58 * mchua nods
20:12:11 <KarlieRobinson> Tuesday Dave asked me to lecture on Community mores and pitfalls
20:12:15 <mchua> jadudm: I'm trying to write my "position statement" for the panel first, then workshop things
20:12:29 <mchua> KarlieRobinson: are they getting students onto the community communication channels (IRC/lists/planet)?
20:12:42 <mchua> jadudm: ...oy, I guess I should hunt for academic citations here?
20:12:49 <jadudm> No.
20:13:07 <KarlieRobinson> The cool thing is that their syllabus is online this time around
20:13:12 <KarlieRobinson> one moment and I'll grab a link
20:13:16 <jadudm> mchua: rationale: you should write a short position statement that is true to your participation on open communities, building posse, etc.
20:13:20 * mchua dances the "no citations" dance
20:13:20 <mchua> Okay.
20:13:32 <KarlieRobinson> ]http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/RIT/The_Course
20:13:32 * mchua nabs something from the NSF blurb she did over the weekend and massages it a bit
20:13:34 <jadudm> I threw in one or two because I have them and found them to be relevant.
20:14:36 <KarlieRobinson> mchua: this week they're getting ready to blog and wiki
20:14:51 <KarlieRobinson> Planets and all that good stuff is included
20:17:39 <mchua> KarlieRobinson: Awesome! If there are any resources you're using for that, I'd love to see them. Or if there are any you need that don't yet exist, we can make them.
20:18:22 <KarlieRobinson> Right now, the only blocker seems to be some that don't have blogs yet, but we discussed some ways to work around that
20:18:54 <KarlieRobinson> We're also in a space with computers and Justin has offered server space for those who would like "mobile" workspace but don't have Laptops
20:18:57 <jadudm> KarlieRobinson: in your coverage of user testing, are you using kids as subjects, and are you talking about human ethics?
20:19:16 <KarlieRobinson> Dunno
20:19:27 <KarlieRobinson> jadudm: I'm not the proff - just the local busy body
20:19:35 <jadudm> Ah. That's the best way. :)
20:19:59 <KarlieRobinson> I'll be guest lecturing next week but mostly just poking my nose in and answering questions as they come up
20:20:10 * KarlieRobinson is the community hacker for the class
20:22:40 <jadudm> mchua: re: your name, use whatever you like.
20:23:16 * mchua is probably thinking waaaaayyyy too hard about this position statement
20:23:25 * mchua will save *something* in the next 5 minutes
20:23:26 <jadudm> Hit save on something so I can see it.
20:23:30 <jadudm> There you go. Great minds, etc.
20:28:33 <mchua> jadudm: http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/SIGCSE_2011/Panel_proposal#Mel_Chua
20:28:46 <mchua> Just braindumping on the sorts of things I'd like to try to say ("what do I think about TOS?")
20:28:59 <mchua> Flying blind a lot, since I've never written one of these before, is that around the right lines?
20:29:41 <jadudm> Yes. Let me reflect back some of what you're writing.
20:30:03 * mchua nods
20:30:06 <jadudm> I don't know that my version is a good "position statement." What position did I take?
20:30:13 <jadudm> (I have to look at it again.)
20:30:23 <jadudm> That said, you might start by stating a position, two, or three.
20:30:50 <jadudm> You could then take two or three paragraphs to briefly defend those statements, with the implication being that we will hear more of that position in the panel.
20:31:16 <jadudm> "As we look to bring open and traditional educational communities together, it is essential that students learn three things..."
20:31:20 <jadudm> * productively lost
20:31:40 <jadudm> * friends forever fish flavin-filled (I forget the four f's)
20:31:41 <jadudm> * etc.
20:31:53 <jadudm> Your points can come from what you've already brainstormed.
20:32:26 <jadudm> But, focus on two or three points, expand them, and leave it that we'll dig in deeper as part of the panel.
20:32:31 <jadudm> does that help as a suggestion/thought?
20:32:42 <mchua> jadudm: I was thinking, actually, of taking "FOSS communities have a lot to learn from academic ones, here's what you're good at and we're not" as my position
20:32:52 <mchua> since it's an angle I like and one I usually never hear brought up, it's always the other way around.
20:32:52 <jadudm> That's a great place to start.
20:32:55 <mchua> Okay.
20:33:05 <jadudm> If it is easier to write the second/third paragraphs first, do that.
20:33:19 <jadudm> The intro sometimes is easier last.
20:33:24 <jadudm> because you then know what you're introducing.
20:33:43 * jadudm looks at what my "position" is...
20:35:35 * mchua dumps format for workshop proposal in that wiki page in the meantime so TOS can attack it in case we're pressed for time
20:35:44 <mchua> So... many... requirements.
20:35:47 <mchua> Oh well. not too bad.
20:41:23 * mchua has http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/SIGCSE_2011/Workshop_proposal up, returns to hacking on position statement
21:01:02 <jadudm> mchua: you're at your 5PM cutoff. Anything I can do?
21:01:20 <mchua> jadudm: gimme 2 min to save and toss to the TOS list, and then I'd love feedback on that.
21:01:32 <mchua> I'll be back after dinner tonight to hack on this more and on the workshop proposal, just filling in what required sections I can.
21:01:47 <jadudm> let me know if I can help with any sections of that.
21:02:05 <jadudm> the panel proposal will wrap up fairly easily as we bring the rest of the panelist sections in.
21:03:48 * mchua nods
21:04:02 * KarlieRobinson is off to dinner with the family
21:07:31 <mchua> jadudm: http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/SIGCSE_2011/Panel_proposal#Mel_Chua
21:07:41 * mchua groans, that took longer than 2 min
21:07:51 <mchua> But my next meeting just walked in the door, so it's perfect timing.
21:07:58 * mchua is running mildly off the clock today, sigh.
21:08:27 <jadudm> Looks good at a glance. I'll leave you some comments in comments, and you can catch them later.
21:08:40 <jadudm> I'll try and be on IRC later for RTC. SMS me if I'm not online and you'd appreciate it if I was.
21:08:41 <mchua> I'll be back after dinner to finish another round on my position statement and to pull things into the workshop proposal, but I'll update the TOS list with those two links real quick as the other folks here get ready.
21:09:07 <mchua> Thanks, jadudm - *really* appreciate you being here, and I'll try to shoulder the load more ably after I've got some food in me tonight.
21:09:10 * mchua salutes
21:10:01 * jadudm does a jig
21:17:47 <jadudm> mchua: comments/thoughts embedded in-line as... comments.
23:49:49 <jadudm> mchua: loosing battery, text if you want me to join for chat. TTFN!
14:00:46 <ganderson> good morning :o
18:16:52 <rindolf> hi all.
18:17:41 <rindolf> http://downforeveryoneorjustme.com/http://teachingopensource.com/ - it's down.
20:11:34 <ymasory> hi. we're seeking sponsors for a foss student event. we want to hook up students with tools for getting involved in foss. we already have some book publishers and source code hosting services on board. what else might be good to have to give students?
21:31:32 <Jefro> ymasory - sorry, you seem to have located us at a time when everyone is looking elsewhere.
21:32:28 <Jefro> Your FOSS event sounds great!  I'm sure folks here would be interested in helping.  You might try the mailing list at http://teachingopensource.org/mailman/listinfo/tos
01:49:37 <mchua> Braindumps incoming. Uploading a 10m video on how I see the pieces of TOS fitting together, and then a POSSE curriculum outline (now with better "academic source" - I hope) once that's done.
01:50:22 <jadudm> Braindumps at 10PM!?!
01:50:29 <jadudm> There is no mercy.
01:52:04 <quaid> It is the gladiator who is hardest on herself.
01:52:41 <quaid> now, which is better?
01:52:52 <quaid> to be annoyingly brilliant, or
01:52:55 <quaid> brilliantly annoying?
01:53:02 <mchua> Well, the braindumps were "Mel forcibly clears 5 hours of the day to sit in front of whiteboards and Make Things Make Sense In Her Own Mind."
01:53:20 <quaid> ah, the fabuluous video walk through of the whiteboard.
01:53:21 <mchua> quaid: it's far more entertaining to be brilliantly annoying. You can get a slot on prime-time TV for it.
01:53:32 <quaid> mchua: exactly!
01:53:37 <mchua> quaid: Yeah, blip.tv is attempting to choke it down...
01:53:42 <quaid> the dichotomy, we celebrate one when we need more of the other.
01:53:55 <mchua> (nearly 11 minutes, my apologies - this was the 2nd runthrough and I managed to cut the length by 50%)
01:54:45 <mchua> Bleh, okay, youtube then.
01:55:37 <quaid> mchua: so tell us more
01:55:38 <quaid> tell us more
01:55:42 <quaid> tell us moooororororororor
01:55:47 <quaid> </Grease>
01:55:47 <mchua> moar comingz
01:55:50 <jadudm> quaid: what community do I need to involve my students in for them to make more work for you?
01:55:51 * mchua chuckles
01:56:08 <mchua> jadudm: The Textbook!
01:56:11 <quaid> heh
01:56:12 <quaid> totally
01:56:14 <jadudm> Ah.
01:56:20 <quaid> that would be teh hilarity
01:56:29 <jadudm> Actually, editing as a skill fits in the FS programme.
01:56:34 <jadudm> I'll think about it... :D
01:56:40 <quaid> I've cleverly deflected all my FEdora stuff
01:56:42 <quaid> ooh
01:56:47 <quaid> 'The Open Source Way'?
01:56:49 <quaid> e.g.:
01:57:00 <mchua> quaid: http://mchua.fedorapeople.org/posse/notes
01:57:07 <quaid> * Learn what tosw means in a way that is unmapped from software
01:57:08 <mchua> jadudm: ^ what I'm transcribing now
01:57:23 <quaid> * Find cool stories about tosw in action for each of the principles that doesn't haveone
01:57:33 <mchua> From the top down, in each column:
01:57:35 <quaid> * That will help you make a stab at filling out the Implementation section
01:57:38 <mchua> (in red) learning objectives
01:57:41 <mchua> (blue) FOSS-isms
01:57:43 <jadudm> quaid: That would be a line of thinking for each for next semester.
01:57:53 <mchua> (red) tools and concepts to introduce
01:57:58 <mchua> (blue) deliverables
01:58:01 <mchua> --- dividing line ---
01:58:09 <mchua> (red) other stuff that didn't fit in there
01:58:13 <mchua> --- scribblescribble ---
01:58:16 <mchua> (random colors) random notes
01:58:27 <jadudm> mchua: looks good. as a note for (future) pain:
01:58:38 <mchua> I'm feeling reasonably decent about the first 3 days; day 4 is too ambitious in scope right now, day 5 is hand-wavy mostly due to me not being a professor.
01:58:42 <mchua> jadudm: ...yessir?
01:58:45 <quaid> jadudm: I could see something like TOSW benefiting from the unjaded, not-yet-PROfessional-attitude of your $avg_undergrad
01:58:47 <jadudm> mchua: to improve adoption of these kinds of ideas, all of the learning outcomes of POSSE need to be mapped into the ACM/IEEE curricula.
01:58:54 <mchua> jadudm: AIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
01:59:02 <jadudm> Actually...
01:59:05 <mchua> jadudm: er, A(CM)IEEE
01:59:27 <jadudm> If the Association for the Advancement of Artificial Intelligence and the IEEE ever get together...
01:59:35 <mchua> BRILLIANT
01:59:41 <jadudm> ... we get AAAIIEEE!
01:59:46 <mchua> "an AAI/IEEE Initiative"
01:59:58 <jadudm> (you forgot an A)
02:00:20 <jadudm> I'm distracting people
02:00:33 * mchua is also a member of the IMSA Alumni Association, so if they hosted that conference, it would be an AAAIIEEEIAA.
02:00:52 <jadudm> quaid: could do. sometime in october would be the right time to re-visit questions regarding my FS102, which might actually explore those kinds of ideas.
02:01:07 <mchua> Er, right. Video upload progress, then finishing transcription.
02:01:19 <mchua> quaid, while I'm doing that... I mostly let Max stare at the whiteboard for a bit, then comment.
02:01:29 <mchua> Initial thoughts, or would you like me to launch into a narrative?
02:01:34 <mchua> ...which I should probably log, if so?
02:01:42 <jadudm> yes, because i'm going to pass out shortly.
02:01:50 <mchua> #chair jadudm quaid
02:01:50 <zodbot> Current chairs: jadudm mchua quaid
02:01:50 <zodbot> mchua: Error: Can't start another meeting, one is in progress.
02:01:54 <mchua> Whut?
02:01:55 <mchua> Okay.
02:02:03 <jadudm> that was all logged?!
02:02:04 <jadudm> I'm suing!
02:02:10 <mchua> #endmeeting