16:00:30 <jsmith> #startmeeting Fedora Board Town Hall
16:00:30 <zodbot> Meeting started Sat Dec  1 16:00:30 2012 UTC.  The chair is jsmith. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:00:30 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
16:00:37 <jsmith> #meetingname "Board Town Hall"
16:00:37 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to '"board_town_hall"'
16:00:53 <jsmith> #chair FranciscoD
16:00:53 <zodbot> Current chairs: FranciscoD jsmith
16:01:01 <jsmith> #topic Reminders and Introductions
16:01:10 <jsmith> Hello!  My name is Jared Smith, and as a former Fedora Project Leader, I've been invited to moderate today's Town Hall meeting with the candidates for the Fedora Board.
16:01:19 <jsmith> Just a few quick reminders before we get started:
16:01:36 <jsmith> I'll use this channel to ask questions of the candidates and to get their responses.  Everyone else should be muted.  If you'd like to propose a question or otherwise contribute to the meeting, please join #fedora-townhall-public and speak up in that channel.
16:02:05 <jsmith> (And please, step up and ask questions!  Otherwise, I'll be forced to recycle old questions, and it could be a very short meeting.)
16:02:24 <jsmith> With those logistics out of the way, I'd like to introduce the candidates and have them give a very brief introduction.  (More information on the candidates can be found at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board_nominations)
16:02:53 <jsmith> Let's do the introductions in this order: dan408, misc, jreznik_n9, bckurera, and then j_dulaney:
16:03:07 <jsmith> (j_dulaney hasn't shown up yet, but hopefully he'll be able to join us shortly)
16:03:17 <jsmith> #topic Introductions from the candidates
16:03:22 <jsmith> dan408: Take it away :-)
16:03:29 <dan408> sure
16:05:08 <jsmith> dan408: Tell us very quickly a bit about yourself, and why you're running for the Fedora Board
16:05:41 <dan408> Hi! My name is Dan Mashal, I'm a Fedora Ambassador, Freemedia team, member of the QA/Bugzapper team, packaging team and the maintainer for MATE Desktop. I love Fedora and have a huge passion for making it better for everyone. I am a sysadmin for my day job and have been running linux since 1996. I try to help people as much as possible in #fedora and spend as much of my free time
16:05:41 <dan408> dedicated to working on Fedora. I am running for Fedora board because I believe that I can make a difference in the future strategic goals of Fedora and overall internal processes.
16:06:03 <jsmith> Thanks dan408
16:06:10 <dan408> EOF
16:06:16 <jsmith> misc: You're up next -- tell us a bit about yourself
16:06:25 <misc> Hi, my name is Michael Scherer, I live in Paris, working as a sysadmin ( part time ).
16:06:47 <misc> in fedora, I am mainly involved in packages reviews, everyday testing and advocacy
16:08:14 <misc> I am running for the board because while I think the strategy is mainly done by people who do the job ( ie, the community at large ), we still need a group to act as mediator and as point of contact for some tasks, and so since almost no one presented, I tought something had to be done for that
16:08:24 <misc> EOF
16:08:29 <jsmith> Thanks misc
16:08:37 <jsmith> jreznik: You're up :-)
16:10:29 <jreznik> Hi! I'm Jaroslav Rezni, still Fedora Board member (and we will see after elections;-), KDE SIG guy - so packager but you know, in KDE SIG, we have to touch every part of Fedora and now employed as Fedora Program Manager by guess who ;-)
16:11:12 <jreznik> also I'm Fedora EMEA Ambassador and I like it - to meet all our users and contributors at all events we are working on
16:12:27 <jreznik> that's the reason why I'm running to Board again - during the time I'm on board (and I mean - member of community) I met so many great people and it surprises me everyday and every "thank you" for Fedora I heard drives me to pay back to the community by "working" on Fedora
16:12:32 <jreznik> EOF
16:12:44 <jsmith> Thanks jreznik
16:12:52 <jsmith> Last but not least, we have bckurera.
16:12:58 <jsmith> bckurera: Please introduce yourself
16:13:05 <bckurera> Hi bckurera here, a contributor for some fedora groups including F18 cycle FAmSCo member and these days busy with managing GCI from Fedora Project end with Fedora Summer Coding group. Check userpage for more info !
16:13:13 <bckurera> My goal is to support the project, Expanding the Fedora Project while Preserving the free culture and the diversity with in Fedora project.
16:16:54 <jsmith> Looks like bckurera got disconnected, but he appears to be back as bckurera_
16:17:17 <jsmith> bckurera_: Anything else you'd like to add to your introduction, or should we continue on with questions?
16:18:33 <jsmith> We're trying to get bckurera_ back with voice in the channel
16:18:49 <jsmith> In the meantime, please start submitting your questions in #fedora-townhall-public
16:19:39 <bckurera> Hi bckurera here, a contributor for some fedora groups including F18 cycle FAmSCo member and these days busy with managing GCI from Fedora Project end with Fedora Summer Coding group. Check userpage for more info !
16:19:47 <bckurera> EOF
16:19:47 <bckurera> My goal is to support the project, Expanding the Fedora Project while Preserving the free culture and the diversity with in Fedora project.
16:20:04 <jsmith> Thanks bckurera
16:20:09 <jsmith> #topic Questions and Answers
16:20:17 <jsmith> Our first question comes from inode0:
16:20:29 <jsmith> How do your personal views of software freedom differ from those of the Fedora Project? (Please answer in the following order: dan408, misc, jreznik, bckurera)
16:22:09 <dan408> My personal views of software freedom dont differ much from those of the Fedora Project. Even though it is free you still get great support from both Redhat employees, the community, mailing lists, IRC and Redhat Bugzilla. I believe that there many advantages to software freedom as shown by the overall popularity of Linux in the business world.
16:23:12 <dan408> I believe that Fedora (with Redhat's assistance) should make more of a concerted effort to get companies in the industry to support free and open source software as they end up improving the overall end user experience at the end of the day.
16:23:19 <dan408> EOF
16:24:35 <jsmith> Thanks dan408.  misc is up next
16:24:50 <misc> My views and those of Fedora are similar, but in the details, since I am individual, i can make choice for myuself that I would not make as a official represent of the community
16:25:35 <misc> for example, being in France, I have less issues with software patents, and yet, i recognize that's a threat for the project as a whole, due to the nature of the project
16:26:50 <misc> so the respect of freedoms and principle behind free software are more stringent for the project, because it need to encompass the needs of others
16:27:26 <misc> EOF
16:28:34 <jsmith> OK, next up is jreznik
16:30:19 <jreznik> the sad true is - freedom is not for free - I'd be really happy to provide all drivers to all existing hw in fedora, all codecs, so you can watch every movie you get and you want to watch, listen to your music etc... It would be really cool - and I know a lot of users would like to see it too (even devels)... but in that case, we would loose part of our freedom either, the spirit of Fedora... so I definitely stand behind Fedora values
16:31:09 <dan408> jreznik: this is where I believe we could make an effort to make a more concerted effort to make those nonfree things free :)
16:31:10 <jreznik> but as Fedora is really very software centric, I'd like to see Fedora as a project to propagate more also the free culture etc, to spread our values to different other communities
16:31:32 <jreznik> dan408: and it's spirit of my second sentence!
16:31:44 <dan408> :)
16:32:41 <jreznik> and I'm worried of all politics around free internet - and I'm happy Fedora supported anti-SOPA movement and we are fighting our freedom as a Project
16:32:42 <jreznik> EOF
16:34:11 <jsmith> Thanks jreznik.  bckurera, you're up next
16:34:25 <bckurera> Personally my views on Software freedom align with the projects’ not differing. The freedom enabled through Free culture.  We all support the project to remain it aligned with basic principles in Freedom. Any action should be towards preserving the freedom which in return makes Fedora better and better.
16:34:29 <bckurera> Fedora is literally free since many contributors pay their time for that, we need to keep in mind and preserve it. Free culture should be exercised since it is the base of the all freedom. Freedom is one of our values so it is in Fedoras’ blood.
16:34:43 <bckurera> Any other agenda should not interfere after all but the Freedom on Software.
16:34:45 <bckurera> EOF
16:35:05 <jsmith> Thanks bckurera
16:35:13 <jsmith> OK, next question
16:35:26 <jsmith> Q2 from jsmith: What role do you think diversity should play in the Fedora Board, whether it's geographical diversity, gender diversity, or diversity of thoughts and ideas?  Do you think the Fedora Board should do more to encourage diversity, and how? (misc, jreznik, bckurera, dan408)
16:37:08 <misc> While I think diversity is pretty important for any structure in general, and free software especially ( since we are not doing that great in that area i fear ), that's a hard topic to adress
16:37:56 <misc> I have seen the same type of discussion arising in various community I have been involved with, mainly around women and open source, and i still do not think I can say something smart about what to do
16:38:57 <misc> yet, i would first try to get in touch with the others people who have tried the various approach, like Gnome project, Ada initiative, etc ( or others for others diversity issues, but i only looked at gender issues )
16:39:45 <misc> however, i do not think we face a issue regarding diversity of ideas, given the vigorous discussion on -devel
16:40:46 <misc> and regarding geographical diversity, I think Fedora is doing great, but this is hard to spread free software ethos when some basics are lacking ( like proper internet access, local relay, etc )
16:41:04 <misc> EOF
16:43:33 <jreznik> diversity is one thing I like on Fedora most - people from different geographics areas, cultures, languages, genders and what I like most - once you're community member - nobody cares about your background
16:44:50 <jreznik> but yes - I have to admit - it could be hard to contribute if you're for example from the country, where internet is not a cheap (and yes, that's the reason why we produce installation DVDs), language could be a problem - international communities are mostly english speaking ones
16:45:14 <jreznik> and we should give a hand to help you, to be part even it's hard
16:46:21 <jreznik> on the other hand - and it's probably caused by country I live and what our nation had to survive - I'm not a big fan of social engineering, to force people to do something they don't want because someone thinks it's a cool idea
16:48:13 <jreznik> so as a Board member if I'll be elected again ;-) I'd be always happy to give a hand to any contributor/group of contributors that need help... and if I won't be elected, I'd do the same too - mentoring, helping how to be a great community member - a lot of people helped me before!
16:48:17 <jreznik> EOF
16:48:29 <bckurera> Personally I believe the diversity was/is the main factor behind the creativity of the Fedora project and the product. The definition may vary. Sometimes it is because our large contributor base from many backgrounds. And I believe exercising free culture with in the project is the main support for the diversity.
16:48:39 <bckurera> Not a specific group is controlling but the whole community which is a combination of vast diverse set of people from varies places and varies mind sets but for one goal to achieve. Equal opportunities and equal positions on the community. Everyone lead by their interest, ideas, belief etc.
16:48:46 <bckurera> To encourage the diversity need to maintain a free culture where any interested individual with different background and mind sets to get mingle with the project. The board can manage an environment with in the project where diversity is encouraged.
16:48:48 <bckurera> EOF
16:49:18 <dan408> I believe diversity plays a huge role in the board. It is one of the reasons I am running, to provide a diversity that I feel is lacking. I blieve that there is good gender and geographical diversity currently but lacking in diversity in thoughts and ideas. I am always full of new thoughts and ideas, being a fairly new contributor and having a lot of experience in the working field
16:49:18 <dan408> including running Fedora and RHEL servers and seeing what every day users go through by spending almost the last 3 years in #fedora. I believe that we have a lot to accomplish in those areas.
16:49:27 <dan408> I believe that we need to figure out new ways to get users excited and involved with Fedora. For example, the summer of hardware contest was great, but it was for existing contributors. I believe that the college ambassadorship and the Red Hat internship programs should be expanded. Another way that the board could be made more diverse is to have less Red Hat employee involvment overall
16:49:28 <dan408> in the board itself and more community members. Possibly even adding a few more seats to the board could also help make the board diverse as well.
16:49:31 <dan408> EOF
16:50:05 <jsmith> OK, on to our next question
16:50:16 <jsmith> Q3 from inode0: Do you have any thoughts about Fedora outreach into new communities of interest? What communities come to mind? How can Fedora become involved? (jreznik, bckurera, dan408, misc)
16:51:59 <jreznik> it's very similar question to all previous - and as I said - Fedora is very software/developer centric (even I'd say we loose a few developers in the past) - and I'd like to see to reach other communities with freedom in their hearts
16:53:33 <jreznik> to promote free culture example - I know you can't play mp3s on your fresh installed Fedora - but do you really want to? provide some music in ogg under CC, add for example one of Blender's foundation movies to the DVD
16:54:26 <jreznik> so that's a community I miss in Fedora - authors, artists, not to be software only project (one question - could software only project survive even? now it's age of content...)
16:54:27 <jreznik> EOF
16:55:18 <bckurera> It is really mandatory to work with other communities in the FOSS world. Since our main goal is toward Software Freedom there should not be any margins defining what is ok and what is not ok. Fedora is an operating system which literary connects finally. Therefore with no limitations Fedora can interact with other communities as long as what their goal is Freedom.
16:55:25 <bckurera> There are good opportutnies and many hardships overcome with the help of other FOSS communities. That is true for interact with other OS as well. I am trying and doing expanding and working with other contributors from other communities in FAm group and Summer –Coding group. I think those experiences will help me and ultimately the board at last.
16:55:27 <bckurera> EOF
16:55:45 <dan408> I believe that Fedora can outreach to ALL communities. Both technical and non technical. I would like to see Fedora everywhere. I would like to see Fedora at charity events, gamer's hardware events, IT expos, all kinds of events. I think we spend too much time outreaching to the community that already knows who we are at Linux events.
16:55:51 <dan408> For example, art events, music events, gamers event (which ties back in to improving hardware support), an alzheimers charity walk, CES, this way people that didn't know Fedora even existed would and would also know what Fedora stands for.
16:55:55 <dan408> EOF
16:56:37 <misc> One area I would be interested to explore is the area of micro contribution. IE, I see lots and lots of
16:56:40 <misc> people who have valuable skills and could contribute, but cannot because lots of tasks requires
16:56:44 <misc> a long time commitement they cannot fullfill, either due to work, familly or anything. Keeping or attracting such
16:56:47 <misc> people seems to me a area we didn't explore much and that would permit more flexibility.
16:57:16 <misc> While i think we could surely expand in others community of interest, one of the core needs of the project is to find enough people to be sustainable, and that should be
16:58:43 <misc> our number 1 priority, so I would focus on the community that would permit to fullfill this goal first. But since people are free to work on what they want, my opinion doesn't count that much, and for sure, would welcome all kind of contributions and communities of interest.
16:58:48 <misc> EOF
16:59:37 <jsmith> OK, next question
16:59:52 <jsmith> Q4 from dan408: Could you propose some ways to make nonfree software free so that it can be included in to Fedora so users would not have to make much efforts to get things working out of the box? (bckurera, dan408, misc, jreznik)
17:03:11 <bckurera> I cannot answer for such a question in 5 minutes, being frank. If I could do that I ll make so. Anyway I do not envision a world with no non-free software, both should exists. Getting non-free software to free software is not in my scope. But to manage and support the sustainability of the Fedora project.
17:03:28 <bckurera> However the only option I can now see is contribute more and more to FOSS work and make available more Free Software as alternatives.
17:03:32 <bckurera> EOF
17:04:17 <dan408> I believe that this is a task for both Red Hat and Fedora Ambassadors. As an Ambassador I have met many employees for marketing teams of many large companies but lacked the resources to make anything happen. I believe that if we take the Ubuntu model where hardware is specifically manufactured to support Fedora it would propogate to other Linux distributions since those hardware vendors
17:04:17 <dan408> would either need to make those contributions to the Linux kernel or adhere to Fedora's licensing rules which would require them to be 100% open and free.
17:05:19 <dan408> Again, this requires a concerted effort by both Red Hat employees in coordination with Fedora contributors. If companies refuse to help, there are ways around this such as Red Hat developers writing and contributing code.
17:05:27 <dan408> EOF
17:05:57 <misc> The only thing we can do to have free ( as in freedom ) remplacements for non free code is to write it. So the
17:06:00 <misc> question is how to make people work on code. We can do various things, like 1) offering a compelling environnement
17:06:04 <misc> for coders, 2) try to integrate as much as possible newer free technology ( something Fedora is already doing well,
17:06:07 <misc> pushing things like Nouveau, etc ), or 3) the ambassadors can explain to the community why we need free software,
17:06:11 <misc> and what is needed by the community, 4) etc. I think so far we are doing great on the point 2 and 3, but 1 could
17:06:14 <misc> be improved according to various discussions in the previous months. While the solution is not only technical,
17:06:18 <misc> stuff like Software collection could be part of the solution, but I will let the technical issue to Fesco.
17:06:24 <misc> EOF
17:08:28 <jreznik> vote in general elections? so we would not have sometimes such non-sense law regarding patents and so on? :) yeah, quite idealistic... but agree with bckurera - one of freedoms is to have freedom to write non-free software... but users should not be forced to use non-free software by governments (see elections ;-) and so on...
17:10:02 <jreznik> what can we do is to promote free software and show the values and advantages behind it - that it makes sense to write floss or as I already said - to release not only software, but also culture under free licenses!
17:10:21 <jreznik> or sometimes it seems middle finger works too, am I right Linus?
17:10:23 <jreznik> EOF
17:10:33 <jsmith> Next question:
17:10:36 <jsmith> Q5 from Jehane: what is your philosophy to manage conflict between peoples? (dan408, misc, jreznik, bckurera)
17:11:36 <dan408> My philosophy is to hear both sides of every story and make a decision that makes both parties happy. It depends on the situation and the history of the conflict.
17:12:04 <dan408> I don't believe in holding grudges, I love the "be awesome" to each other philosophy.
17:13:05 <dan408> I believe that everyone has their "off days". Especially for non Red Hat employees, they may not know what is going on within the internals of Red Hat, I believe people should always be given a second chance unless there is no other option.
17:13:12 <dan408> I am a firm believer in second chances.
17:13:16 <dan408> EOF
17:15:28 <misc> While I am not a specialist into managing conflict ( and being myself *kough* sometime *kough*  stubborn ), and i will surely just speak of the usual way you can see everywhere, i think we should try to identify conflict before it is too late and try to solve them
17:15:59 <misc> usually, when 2 people conflicts, you will see they still have a shared goal but disagree on some points, and we should build on the shared
17:16:32 <misc> values and try to find a consensus around the disagreement, in a way to satisfy as much as possible everybody ( including people not part of the issue )
17:17:31 <misc> and since most of us cannot be everywhere, we must also clearly communicate that we are here to help if any issues arise, either by repeating the message, or by being active when we think there is a problem.
17:18:04 <misc> ( on a more practical level, i think I would delegate conflict resolution to the CWG has they have more experience than me )
17:18:07 <misc> EOF
17:19:39 <jreznik> well, I never was a big fan of all that CWG (community working group) idea - and I'd consider use of CWG as a big fail of the whole community
17:21:18 <jreznik> but it really depends on roots of conflict - very often you can see, that people do not want to be in conflict but they behave in that way and they are not aware of that - and better communication (and mediation) usually helps with conflict resolution
17:21:56 <jreznik> but we won't know until CWG would have to be used...
17:21:57 <jreznik> EOF
17:22:09 <bckurera> In a large community with many contributors from varies countries, backgrounds, mind sets it is hard to withstand with no conflicts. Therefore handling and managing such would be very sensitive and crucial. I have some memories/ experiences on conflicts in publically and as well as with in regional/ country communities.
17:22:16 <bckurera> My idea and what I had exercised is facilitating as a facilitator and guide them to come to a solutions through discussions. The Board should not be interfere (unless very serious situation) but should facilitate to mitigate the damages and make sure the problem in safe hands.
17:22:21 <bckurera> First the conflict should be solved with in parties if not there are country wise/ regional wise levels to discuss and get solved/ facilitated. We have CoC as well. The solution is respecting others and exercise Free Culture, then there will be zero conflicts.
17:22:27 <bckurera> What I dislike is making public such conflicts and try to solve the matter in public, yes we need to do that but as the final option. First it should be handled as there is a minimal damage for both parties.
17:22:30 <bckurera> EOF
17:22:52 <jsmith> OK, let's try to sneak in one final question before we run out of time:
17:23:18 <jsmith> Q6 from gnokii: what you think should it be that a Fedora board member has more then one position in the Fedora community or is that to much work for a person in his rarely free time? Or isn't it better to concentrate on fewer tasks and fulfill them with 100%? (misc, jreznik, bckurera, dan408)
17:25:46 <misc> I think the question is not really board vs non board, so I will just try to answer it on a more general level
17:26:00 <misc> Everybody is free to manage its own time, and not everybody have the same amount of free time, or the same interest. I think
17:26:03 <misc> that's quite important to avoid having too much tasks and avoid burnout, but we cannot force people to stop working.
17:26:06 <misc> I expect people to keep in mind their own workload in Fedora, and make sure to raise their own bus factor, and that's a message
17:26:10 <misc> that should apply to all of us in the community, being on the board or not.
17:26:13 <misc> Personnally, I dislike promissing too much, but I can understand also why some people like to switch tasks quite often,
17:26:16 <misc> and that's fine with me, as long as I am aware of the fact so i can plan accordingly.
17:26:19 <misc> EOF
17:28:17 <jreznik> I'm ok with having more than one position in Fedora community and I'd say most of contributors already takes more positions within community... if they make it and it should be up to the member if he thinks he can make it
17:29:22 <jreznik> especially as we do not require 8 hours per day.... (so yeah, I feel angry when I see politician paid from my taxes occupaying several full time positions ;-)
17:29:24 <jreznik> EOF
17:29:35 <bckurera> I have no idea on generalizing. It depends on the capability of the member/ contributor. It is up to the person and his skills on time management. However if anyone has more duties and still nothing is getting done it is better to leave positions and think of doing a work 100% rather than touching everything. This is nothing to do with board but other committees and true for teams.
17:29:43 <bckurera> Why contributing two teams, do contribute for one group 100%. My view is do much as you can but leave accordingly when you cannot hold more. So that any another contributor will fulfill the need. Just do not hold the position for the title or any other agenda.
17:29:46 <bckurera> EOF
17:31:53 <dan408> I believe that having it is required to be a member of more than 1 group to be a member of the board (i.e. QA, packager or ambassador). Otherwise what's the point? Board members are required to know how the internals of Fedora work. I do believe that any contributor should be allowed to run (which they are as you see me here). I believe that if you don't have the time you need to step
17:31:53 <dan408> aside and let someone that does have the time take your place.
17:31:58 <dan408> EOF
17:36:51 <jsmith> Thanks to the candidates, and to everyone else who has participated in this Town Hall meeting, and especially to FranciscoD for managing all the logistics around this election cycle.  Please don't forget to vote once the elections start!
17:36:55 <jsmith> #endmeeting