20:00:20 #startmeeting 20:00:27 #topic Who's here? 20:00:29 * ricky 20:00:34 * nirik is in the cheap seats in the back 20:00:44 Alin Crețu is here (finally) 20:00:50 * Sparks is here to see all the goings on 20:01:04 * onekopaka is here for who knows what reason 20:01:33 * sijis is here. 20:01:41 hellloooooooo 20:01:50 * ke4qqq is here 20:02:11 k, lets get started then 20:02:18 #topic Infrastructure -- Meeting Tickets 20:02:22 .tiny https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-infrastructure/query?status=new&status=assigned&status=reopened&group=milestone&keywords=~Meeting&order=priority 20:02:23 mmcgrath: http://tinyurl.com/47e37y 20:02:35 So really the only ticket we have on the list is 20:02:37 .ticket 1464 20:02:41 mmcgrath: #1464 (Puppet Web Apps Refactoring) - Fedora Infrastructure - Trac - https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-infrastructure/ticket/1464 20:02:44 here 20:02:50 This is goign to happen today if it's not already happening like right now :)' 20:02:53 ricky: you want to take it? 20:03:02 Sure. 20:03:18 Sorry for the late notice, but if you have anything in your home directories on those machines, it'd be a good idea to back them up now 20:03:32 They're in other backups, but those are kind of painful to get to. 20:03:43 I just sent an email to list with the rough order that we're planning to do things in. 20:03:59 ricky: do we just want to... disable to cron job for a while? :) 20:04:22 There will probably be a lot of puppet spam around the merge because the fas module changed, which touches more than just the apps/proxies/fas machines 20:04:31 * hiemanshu is here now 20:04:38 mmcgrath: Yeah, I'm currently disabling puppet on the proxy/app/fas machines 20:05:12 Anyway, I hope this goes well, and look for another email to f-i-l about the exact nature of the puppet changes once the dust clears a bit 20:05:15 coolz 20:05:33 ricky: and whats our plan for config clean up on the actual nodes? 20:05:43 IE stuff that shouldn't exist there anymore? 20:05:44 * hiemanshu wonders what the topic is 20:05:51 hiemanshu: 20:05:53 .ticket 1464 20:05:58 mmcgrath: #1464 (Puppet Web Apps Refactoring) - Fedora Infrastructure - Trac - https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-infrastructure/ticket/1464 20:06:05 I'm hoping the rebuild most of them, which shouldn't take all that long 20:06:19 ricky: k. 20:06:23 It's the only way to make sure that the new configs aren't relying on old stuff :-/ 20:06:39 * SmootherFrOgZ is around 20:06:40 yeah, and rebuilding doesn't harm anything :) 20:07:00 ricky, rebuild from scratch? 20:07:02 ricky: did transifex get all setup in staging and is working properly? 20:07:19 Yup, https://translate.stg.fedoraproject.org/ 20:07:29 Oh yeah. If I forgot a service, *now* would be a good time to tell me :-) 20:07:59 blogs.fp.o? 20:08:09 did you get the controls for the orbital laser? 20:08:11 we haven't deployed that yet, so that won't be included 20:08:12 hiemanshu: doesn't exist yet so it won't be included in this. 20:08:15 smooge: drat! 20:08:30 just saying.. it takes a long time to get back online 20:08:42 ricky: lets keep the old images around for a bit just in case. 20:08:45 seriously though cool. 20:08:53 at least bapp1, and app1 and app2. 20:09:03 mmcgrath: Will do, I can just rename the LV, rght? 20:09:04 **right 20:09:08 we have an orbital laser? 20:09:36 ricky: yeah, and if any are on the xenGuests vg, make sure to pvscan and vgscan it. 20:09:39 * mmcgrath doesn't think any of those are 20:09:39 onekopaka: Why else would we ask for latitude and logitude in FAS? >:-) 20:09:50 Will do 20:09:58 ricky: ok, anything else on that subject? 20:10:07 Nope, thanks 20:10:17 coolz 20:10:21 ricky: are you planning to hit me with said orbital laser? 20:10:28 #topic Infrastructure -- cvs2 20:10:35 so I'm still getting the new cvs server up and running. 20:10:45 onekopaka no its for beaming people to our secret moon base 20:10:46 it should, in theory, not require that much downtime. Just another cvs resync. 20:10:49 * onekopaka dislikes CVS 20:11:06 I think subversion is better 20:11:11 But the newer box should have significnatly lower commit times, branch times, etc, etc. 20:11:18 * onekopaka agrees with hiemanshu 20:11:20 no one likes cvs 20:11:27 mmcgrath, svn? 20:11:42 hiemanshu: it's another version control system. 20:11:43 whats wrong with that, and i find svn easier to use than cvs 20:11:55 * nirik notes that changing from CVS is not simple and easy. Someone needs to do a lot of work to get it done. 20:11:56 hiemanshu, its a big project to deal with.. 20:12:05 hiemanshu: I think most people woudl prefer git. Keep in mind that the problem is getting from point A to point B. 20:12:12 yep 20:12:16 * mmcgrath has decided to stay out of that conversation though. 20:12:17 hmmmm 20:12:17 git is ideal 20:12:24 I LIKE MINE BETTER 20:12:30 (i don't think this is the time for this conversation) 20:12:35 hiemanshu, and its been a task of where someone would need to work on making 20 GB or so transfer 20:12:36 I'll happily support anyone with the time, tenacity and courage to stand up to what it'd take to do a conversion though :) 20:12:43 Anywho. 20:12:46 Lookside is done. 20:12:49 cvs2 is mostly there. 20:12:50 yay 20:13:01 mmcgrath, what is the difference between cvs2 and cvs1? 20:13:03 ianweller: you like cvs, don't you? 20:13:08 I'll probably wait for the ok from Toshio though to make sure the pkgdb bits still work as I'd hope. 20:13:28 smooge: hopefully nothing. Part of the conversion is to rename cvs2 to cvs1 and disable cvs1. 20:13:31 cvs is still, at present, not HA. 20:13:34 mmcgrath, i dont like cvs much, i prefer git though 20:13:37 though we so rarely have downtime with it. 20:13:39 * smooge wishes people would just stick to SCCS like K&R wanted. 20:13:40 hiemanshu: noted. 20:13:56 I always found cvs harder for _NEW_ people to join in 20:13:59 mmcgrath, and then make a failover cvs2 that would be a backup 20:14:12 smooge: yeah, but probably not that live of a backup. 20:14:19 since we're the only major distribution that doesn't support drbd. 20:14:24 mmcgrath, sort of like the releng1 we went over 20:14:31 smooge: yeah. 20:14:40 * smooge read that as Dr Bad 20:14:41 but the HA/cluster stuff is for another time. 20:14:50 mmcgrath, takes things in a way of a new person as well 20:14:54 the main purpose of this conversion is to get cvs _off_ of the /mnt/koji powervault. 20:15:26 mmcgrath: I'm interested in HA cluster when the time comes 20:15:37 cralin: k. 20:15:46 So anyone have any questions about how that's going to go down? 20:15:56 as long as stuff has been kept in puppet it should go fairly well 20:15:58 yes. and then someone can look at a summer project of inventing bikeshedding revision control system 20:16:10 smooge: :) 20:16:11 mmcgrath, no questions on that 20:16:12 mmcgrath: I thought the point of the HA stuff is that it doesn't go down! 20:16:26 mmcgrath, no questions 20:16:26 * skvidal is full of zing 20:16:34 we've tried a couple of times to change to a different scm, so far no success though. 20:16:38 skvidal: yeah but we don't have HA :) 20:16:50 skvidal, timing was a bit off. need to add some invective next time 20:16:57 heh 20:17:07 Ok, next topic 20:17:08 :) 20:17:17 #topic Infrastructure -- blogs.fedoraproject.org 20:17:19 nb|away: you around? 20:17:21 * smooge is happy to be able to help here 20:17:30 Oh, he said he couldn't make it 20:17:33 * onekopaka will step in at this point 20:17:33 mmcgrath, nb is not here, he is at work 20:17:34 what is blogs vs planet 20:17:37 ricky: k. 20:17:39 But he wanted me to give little update 20:17:42 **give a little 20:17:46 mmcgrath, i ll be in his place though 20:17:47 onekopaka: feel free if you want to give it 20:17:48 smooge: blogs is a hosting provider, planet is a public rss aggregator 20:17:55 oooooh 20:17:56 smooge: blogs.fp.o is a full wordpress mu install 20:17:58 whats the latest on all that? 20:18:10 it is almost ready to go 20:18:17 mmcgrath, we have a things in mind though 20:18:22 nb is waiting on review on some packages 20:18:25 mmcgrath, do we need fas integration? 20:18:28 "things in mind" ? such as. 20:18:33 yeah, fas integration is a requisite 20:18:46 mmcgrath, nb was a little reluctant about that 20:19:05 he said it would not be necessary but a @fp.o email id to sign up 20:19:14 fas integration == OpenID support ? 20:19:17 mmcgrath: we decided that FAS integration wouldn't be something to blog release on 20:19:17 is required 20:19:21 Sparks, nope 20:19:31 Sparks: OpenID on the FAS side is flakey 20:19:37 ok 20:19:54 I'd prefer to go the OpenID way, but that's not going to be ready for a while. 20:19:57 mmcgrath, what the need for FAS integration here? 20:20:00 that's not to say that we couldn't fix OpenID as part of that. 20:20:05 FAS integration for things like comments is not easy though. 20:20:06 ricky, OpenID with WP is easy 20:20:07 hiemanshu: it's just a requirement for all of our new apps. 20:20:15 well 20:20:19 for commenting 20:20:26 FAS integration would be simple 20:20:30 mmcgrath: Sorry, I miscommunicated that to nb and the others. 20:20:31 mod_fas? 20:20:31 mmcgrath, Guest commenting is on by deafault 20:20:33 so it seems 20:20:49 smooge, i think mod_fas is for apache? 20:20:52 * onekopaka has been looking at the MW plugin 20:20:58 smooge: well, if wordpress supports apache auth, we can (and have) used mod_auth_postgres in the past. 20:21:07 actually that's how fedorahosted.org is setup. 20:21:16 mmcgrath, we dont want to change _core_ files 20:21:22 correct. 20:21:25 If we need to block on FAS authentication, then Nigel said he had something, but he needed to pull it up from an backup at home 20:21:28 does wp-mu support auth modules? 20:21:33 mmcgrath, yes 20:21:55 ricky, he said he would send it to me when he found it 20:21:56 so we would use wp-mu for account login and openid for comments? Is that possible/tested 20:22:04 s/wp-mu/fas/ 20:22:21 I have a feeling that wordpress mu's concept of a user applies both for logging in (blog administration) and comments. 20:22:22 smooge, yes but OpenID is not ready on FAS yet 20:22:29 ricky: yep 20:22:32 ricky, yes 20:22:49 ricky, Guests can comment as well and that is moderated 20:22:56 so is the question here whether to put time into fixing OpenID or writing a wordpress plugin? 20:23:03 * mmcgrath would rather just fix OpenID. 20:23:18 mmcgrath, on a long term basis OpenID 20:23:19 What would be ideal if if somebody worked on OpenID in FAS :-) It's on my TODO list, but it's honestly not that high up compared to items like the signup wizard 20:23:25 But maybe I need to change that 20:23:32 mmcgrath: that would be a better long term solution 20:23:40 onekopaka: which would? 20:23:48 mmcgrath, OpenID 20:23:48 mmcgrath: OpenID 20:24:00 because we could integrate with other apps 20:24:09 * hiemanshu thinks onekopaka can read his mind 20:24:19 just curious, where do our estimates that it's harder to fix our OpenID implementation then write a fresh wp plugin? 20:24:23 mmcgrath, OpenID would work almost anywhere 20:24:37 It's harder to fix OpenID, but it's also "better" 20:24:40 mmcgrath, an WPMU plugin is easier 20:24:49 we need Smart work not Hard work 20:25:07 hi 20:25:18 but a WP MU plugin is a more specific solution 20:25:30 k, well sounds like y'all are making good progress so that's good. 20:25:44 and for those that missed it this morning, I put the kill switch on news.fp.o until someone steps up and takes responsibility for it. 20:25:56 mmcgrath, i would 20:25:57 what was news.fp.o 20:26:00 Though it sounds like the marketing team are working on a similar project now that will likely encompass that. 20:26:06 hiemanshu: you're not on the marketing team. 20:26:14 mmcgrath, :( 20:26:23 * onekopaka is limited to what he can do because he hasn't been sponsored for sysadmin-test and he knows that there's too many sponsees 20:26:42 The first problem came up when an RFR was made without all that much talk within the marketing team 20:26:45 hiemanshu: in our environment it's one of those things where the teams that need something provide a project manager, and find an infrastructure member to do the work. 20:26:50 onekopaka, i can help you till you are done there 20:26:53 what we need isn't someone to do the work, but someone on the team to say what they want. 20:26:55 hiemanshu, if you are interested in looking at the new idea.. talk with themayor about his idea and items. 20:27:17 smooge, sure will 20:27:34 hiemanshu, I saw the mockup mizmo and he did and it would probably be a replacement overwrite.. but he will need some infrastructure help 20:27:52 er, she :) 20:28:01 smooge, i might help them there if i can 20:28:07 * jds2001 pops in :) 20:28:18 hey jds2001, my sponsor and mentor :) 20:29:12 Ok, well anyone have anything else on this topic? 20:29:16 mmcgrath, yes 20:29:27 hiemanshu: have at it, whats up? 20:29:44 oh damn i forgot 20:29:58 mmcgrath, continue i will come back later to you 20:30:00 * onekopaka reads hiemanshu's mind to find out what it was 20:30:15 onekopaka, extra plugins 20:30:28 * onekopaka really can't read minds 20:30:28 Ok, well if you guys remember just ping. 20:30:40 So I'd like to thank osuosl for becoming a new sponsor. 20:30:50 some of you probably noticed the new osuosl1 host. 20:30:50 * ianweller googles them 20:30:59 so we need to make sure to get their sponsors up. 20:31:01 ianweller: http://osuosl.org/ 20:31:04 I've got some docs to update 20:31:09 mmcgrath: Let me know whenever they've chosen a logo 20:31:13 and they all hang out in #osuosl 20:31:16 ricky: will do 20:32:11 In addition to that I've been workign on publictest6 for the QA team. 20:32:25 they've got one of our mediawiki installs and are trying to check out some new extensions that they think will help. 20:32:31 mmcgrath: are we still on the osuosl topic? 20:32:40 onekopaka: nope sorry 20:32:48 #topic Infrastructure -- pt6 20:33:07 This is yet another example of the wiki getting in the middle of various teams workflow. 20:33:12 mmcgrath: did that export help? 20:33:25 ianweller: it did at first though the version I have up there now didn't use it. 20:33:31 mmcgrath, i am good at wiki work if i can help 20:33:32 oic. 20:33:33 hope it was at least a fun excersize :) 20:33:36 oic.hehe 20:33:49 mmcgrath: what do you mean "getting in the middle" -- do you imply that it's good or bad? 20:33:52 or neither 20:33:56 ianweller: neither. 20:34:06 it's just that our wiki has always been a bit more than just an information wiki. 20:34:24 it sits in our workflow. 20:34:29 yeah. 20:34:31 mmcgrath, what do we need the extra plugins for? 20:34:56 hiemanshu: I honestly don't even understand what those plugins do. 20:34:59 ianweller: do you know? 20:35:02 * mmcgrath gets the ticket number. 20:35:02 mmcgrath: not a clue. 20:35:25 mmcgrath, unless there is a need, i dont think we need anything else 20:35:28 obviously they're so secretive, they fire the orbital laser whenever i make an edit with the edit summary "GRAHH" 20:35:29 .ticket 1473 20:35:33 mmcgrath: #1473 (Request for demo mediawiki instance for QA) - Fedora Infrastructure - Trac - https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-infrastructure/ticket/1473 20:35:33 we need no fancy stuff and keep it clean 20:35:41 hiemanshu: well, yeah. 20:35:44 Looks like mediawiki-semantic 20:35:55 hiemanshu: but then again we're also here to help provide the means of making life simpler for our community 20:36:07 especially the QA team which is really gaining speed. 20:36:15 I'm just trying to set up stuff they want and get out of their way. 20:36:22 ianweller, what exactly would those plugins do, if there is a reason i agree 20:36:34 read the ticket 20:36:35 * onekopaka has heard a little bit of stuff about semantic mediawiki on mediawiki-l 20:36:52 ianweller, doing that 20:37:08 http://semantic-mediawiki.org/wiki/Semantic_MediaWiki 20:37:11 that's the plugin 20:37:27 so.. tagging 20:37:35 ianweller: some sort of super tagging I guess 20:37:40 we'll have to see what they come up with on pt6 20:37:41 magic tags 20:37:46 they very well may decide it doesn't do what they want :) 20:37:55 anywho, any more questions on that? 20:37:55 i'm glad they decided to go with a test instance 20:38:16 nope 20:38:19 ianweller: I'm happy to finally have the resources to arbitrarly do that stuff :) 20:38:26 #topic Infrastructure -- Zikula 20:38:29 ke4qqq: around? 20:38:34 yep 20:38:37 mmcgrath: :D 20:38:40 So hit us, whats the latest on that? 20:38:58 so sparks has been packaging like mad - and we are well nigh done with all of that save for two licensing hiccups 20:39:07 but upstream is being extremely responsive to our concerns 20:39:09 Awesome :-) 20:39:16 and have rectified a number of issues already 20:39:46 basically all of the modules are in for review, most approved and already building 20:39:47 ke4qqq: to give us an idea of how big of an undertaking this has been. 20:39:52 how many total packages have you guys had to create for this? 20:39:55 zikula is the CMS? 20:39:59 smooge: yes 20:39:59 ke4qqq: might be one more module coming 20:40:00 smooge: yeah 20:40:10 by the time we are done it will be upwards of 20 20:40:17 for what do we need the CMS btw? 20:40:20 Woah :-) 20:40:22 we still have the fedora-specific stuff 20:40:27 hiemanshu: the big one, docs.fedoraproject.org 20:40:37 and some of the modules had bundled libs that weren't already in our repos 20:40:43 mmcgrath: hiemanshu: and perhaps the main part of fp.o, eventually 20:40:46 hiemanshu: the other thing is historical. One interesting thing about our wiki is that it is largely contributor based. There's some end user content on there, but not a lot. 20:40:46 (is what i've heard) 20:40:47 as did the core 20:40:54 ianweller: quite possibly. 20:41:17 hiemanshu: so our docs team is pretty killer, good people. 20:41:19 mmcgrath, i dont like the idea of a CMD 20:41:27 CMS for fp.o 20:41:34 mmcgrath, :) 20:41:37 hiemanshu: but the process to actually build docs.fedoraproject.org is absolutely crazy. 20:41:59 Docs is leading the efforts to get it running, then we'll evaluate it for websites. 20:42:08 yeah, it may be great, may not be. 20:42:13 * onekopaka doesn't want crazy processes to build documentation 20:42:27 maybe it will eat babies.. maybe it won't. 20:42:33 onekopaka: you should hang out in #fedora-docs and ask someone to step you through it. 20:42:34 * hiemanshu wonders if onekopaka is lost bro 20:42:37 it's hilarious. 20:42:38 is his* 20:42:40 crazy is an understatement 20:42:45 * onekopaka is totally lost 20:42:46 the current process def. eats babies and puppies 20:42:49 and nirik one time actually had us turn the cron job down because it was generating so much bandwidth :) 20:42:51 so eating babies would be an improvement 20:42:59 one thing I'm still curious about is how zikula + translations will work. 20:43:03 ke4qqq: can you talk to that at all? 20:43:12 so zikula supports gettext 20:43:16 mmcgrath: although that was when it was going over our old slow link. ;) 20:43:38 and really is just going to serve up docbook rendered stuff ( and have an automated way to build all of it) 20:43:50 and that's as much as I know unfortunately :/ 20:43:58 Nice, I look forward to looking at that. 20:44:11 Looking forward to Zikula 20:44:16 ke4qqq: gettext? so will this work with transifex or it's own thing completely? 20:44:21 That'll work with transifex 20:44:22 upstream is building modules to build with publican and push out. 20:44:28 mmcgrath: it will work with transifex 20:44:29 no kidding? 20:44:35 ke4qqq: that's good news 20:44:37 that's pretty amazing really. 20:44:40 Ok, 20:44:45 ke4qqq: anything else on that topic? 20:44:45 yeah upstream has been VERY responsive 20:44:46 Great news 20:44:47 nothing 20:44:54 wow... that would be like cake and candy 20:45:00 and rainbows. 20:45:05 and extra icing 20:45:08 and ponies 20:45:13 * smooge goes into diabetic coma 20:45:15 lol ponies 20:45:22 Ok ok 20:45:23 that means 20:45:31 next topic :) 20:45:36 #topic Infrastructure -- Smooge! 20:45:37 its time to introduce me? 20:45:43 So... 20:45:55 smooge has been hired on by RH to work with us on Infrastructure 20:45:58 so thank you RH 20:46:01 and thank you smooge! 20:46:03 smooge: say some stuff. 20:46:13 * mmcgrath thinks smooge wrote Internet Explorer. 20:46:14 hi my name is Smooge 1000. I am an older bot who worked on Mirrors long ago. 20:46:16 smooge, a speech 20:46:19 :-P 20:46:34 no I didn't write IE. I wrote 4 lines to make IE work on RH. 20:46:41 it was called Red Baron 20:46:48 hehehe, see. Wrote IE. 20:46:56 i hate you smooge 20:46:59 the real programmers wrote millions 20:47:10 you wrote IE :-0 20:47:11 more lines than me. 20:47:28 heheeh 20:47:57 i will say that if I had written IE then I would have been able to invest quite heavily in Linux from the IPO back in 1997 20:47:57 smooge: well welcome, I'm thrilled to have you working with all of us. It'll help immensely 20:47:58 anyone here wrote FF for a IE vs FF battle :P 20:48:11 hiemanshu: heh, maybe later. 20:48:14 smooge: :) 20:48:17 hiemanshu: it's abbreviated Fx 20:48:20 smooge: anything else to say? If not we'll open the floor. 20:48:25 * onekopaka claps for smooge 20:48:31 my main work at Red Hat previously was Tech Support and Mirror manager that was taken over later by Kambiz and then Mdomsch 20:48:56 I will be Mike's PFO (Pimply Face Oldguy). I know where the bodies are buried? 20:49:03 and I think I am done 20:49:15 * onekopaka claps for smooge again 20:49:17 * hiemanshu remembers the Tech Support jokes he read last night 20:49:22 smooge: heheheh 20:49:23 ok 20:49:29 #topic Infrastructure -- Open Floor 20:49:30 A big round of applause for smooge 20:49:36 Anyone have anything they'd like to discuss? 20:49:43 ok and thankyou to Red Hat for making this possible. 20:49:44 we can keep talking about smooges awesomeness if we want. 20:49:55 Actually I do have a couple of things 20:49:59 yep 20:50:02 * ianweller laughs at this 20:50:11 the fas integration for ovirt is almost done 20:50:12 smooge: have at it. 20:50:24 smooge: oof, one sec. 20:50:24 1) I am going over DNS on the 10.8.34 and should have stuff cleaned up soon. 20:50:27 * mmcgrath wants to hear this. 20:50:32 SmootherFrOgZ: you first, how's that all going? 20:50:35 waits sorry. 20:50:57 pretty well, i'm gonna integrate it this night for test 20:51:11 i'm gonna need to have ruby-json into infra repo 20:51:38 SmootherFrOgZ: is that something we can't put in EPEL? 20:52:00 we can, i already requested a review for this package 20:52:22 SmootherFrOgZ: oh excellent, i'd assumed it was some weird rhel subpackage they didn't enable :) 20:52:45 maybe, yeah :) 20:52:51 so 20:53:08 smooge: congrats :) 20:53:09 SmootherFrOgZ: and how does the auth work exactly? similar to how the mediawiki plugin works? 20:53:17 SmootherFrOgZ: how does the authorization get created? 20:53:24 do we want that permission also managed by FAS for heac pool* 20:53:42 what is heac pool? 20:53:50 SmootherFrOgZ: naw, I'd rather manage per pool and ovirt privileges in ovirt. 20:53:58 mmcgrath: i worked on a python-fedora port and , built a ovirt plugin to deal with 20:54:00 smooge: each pool, I think :-) 20:54:03 but we need the right users to show up in there, and to give them authentication. 20:54:08 20:54:20 SmootherFrOgZ: cool, so anything else on that? Let me know when it's test ready :) 20:54:38 mmcgrath: so you still want the way to level up a user through ovirt UI ? 20:55:17 ricky, ok sorry.. I thought it might be a new acronym 20:55:27 SmootherFrOgZ: yeah 20:55:47 k 20:55:55 SmootherFrOgZ: thanks for that. 20:55:59 Ok, since we're running short on time. 20:56:04 smooge: take it. 20:56:16