2024-12-18 16:10:54 <@amoloney:fedora.im> !startmeeting Ad Hoc Council meeting about the proven packager process and recent FESCo decision on proven packager rights removal
2024-12-18 16:10:55 <@meetbot:fedora.im> Meeting started at 2024-12-18 16:10:54 UTC
2024-12-18 16:10:55 <@meetbot:fedora.im> The Meeting name is 'Ad Hoc Council meeting about the proven packager process and recent FESCo decision on proven packager rights removal'
2024-12-18 16:11:09 <@amoloney:fedora.im> !roll call
2024-12-18 16:11:18 <@amoloney:fedora.im> !topic Roll Call
2024-12-18 16:11:21 <@amoloney:fedora.im> !hi
2024-12-18 16:11:21 <@bookwar:fedora.im> !hi
2024-12-18 16:11:23 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Aoife Moloney (amoloney)
2024-12-18 16:11:23 <@rwright:fedora.im> !hi
2024-12-18 16:11:23 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Aleksandra Fedorova (bookwar) - she / her / hers
2024-12-18 16:11:24 <@asamalik:fedora.im> !hi
2024-12-18 16:11:25 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Robert Wright (rwright) - he / him / his
2024-12-18 16:11:26 <@mattdm:fedora.im> !hi
2024-12-18 16:11:27 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Adam Samalik (asamalik) - he / him / his
2024-12-18 16:11:28 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Matthew Miller (mattdm) - he / him / his
2024-12-18 16:11:37 <@dcantrell:fedora.im> !hi
2024-12-18 16:11:38 <@zodbot:fedora.im> David Cantrell (dcantrell) - he / him / his
2024-12-18 16:11:47 <@amoloney:fedora.im> please record your attendance if you havent already
2024-12-18 16:11:52 <@ffmancera:fedora.im> !hi
2024-12-18 16:11:54 <@zodbot:fedora.im> FAS Fernando F. Mancera (ffmancera) - he / him / his
2024-12-18 16:12:09 <@jbrooks:matrix.org> !hi jasonbrooks
2024-12-18 16:12:11 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Jason Brooks (jasonbrooks) - he / him / his
2024-12-18 16:12:46 <@amoloney:fedora.im> Would someone be able to summarize an !info for this meeting please?
2024-12-18 16:13:15 <@mattdm:fedora.im> !info We just concluded a brief video call to discuss the situation. dcantrell filled us in on the background from his perspective, and @mattdm added some other notes
2024-12-18 16:13:34 <@mattdm:fedora.im> !action ffmancera volunteered to compile a factual timeline of events and the decision
2024-12-18 16:13:41 <@mattdm:fedora.im> I think that's basically it?
2024-12-18 16:13:51 <@amoloney:fedora.im> Thank you
2024-12-18 16:13:58 <@asamalik:fedora.im> let's say we avoided making decisions, just explored the situation?
2024-12-18 16:14:26 <@amoloney:fedora.im> yeah we wanted to come here to talk transparently more before we did make any decisions
2024-12-18 16:14:47 <@mattdm:fedora.im> !info We avoided making any decisions -- we just wanted to understand the situation. now we're in this meeting for transparency before making any actual decisions.
2024-12-18 16:14:54 <@bookwar:fedora.im> Yes, we recognize the importance of the issue, but we need more time to discuss it.
2024-12-18 16:15:12 <@mattdm:fedora.im> Given that, I have a proposal.
2024-12-18 16:15:44 <@mattdm:fedora.im> how do I propose thigns to new zodbot? I forget :)
2024-12-18 16:16:03 <@amoloney:fedora.im> !topic Discuss and decide, where appropriate, action items regarding this topic
2024-12-18 16:16:08 <@amoloney:fedora.im> just do a !proposal
2024-12-18 16:16:10 <@asamalik:fedora.im> also, there was a question whether we want to (or even can) try to somehow "undo" FESCO's decision before we understand it properly and can address it properly. How do you all feel about that?
2024-12-18 16:16:22 <@asamalik:fedora.im> (we also avoided agreeing/disagreeing on that in the call)
2024-12-18 16:16:31 <@amoloney:fedora.im> it doesn't record the proposal,you need to do an !agreed when we are ready to record something
2024-12-18 16:17:45 <@mattdm:fedora.im> Proposal: The FESCo decision to revoke Peter Robinson's proven packaging privileges should be put on hold (that is, reverted) until the Council completes our investigation.
2024-12-18 16:18:13 <@mattdm:fedora.im> Also: Because of the holidays and because of the complexity of the situation, this will take [ several weeks / into january / some time ].
2024-12-18 16:18:27 <@amoloney:fedora.im> +1
2024-12-18 16:18:30 <@ffmancera:fedora.im> +1
2024-12-18 16:18:32 <@rwright:fedora.im> +1
2024-12-18 16:18:35 <@dcantrell:fedora.im> I abstain from voting because I am the FESCo rep on the council.
2024-12-18 16:19:02 <@mattdm:fedora.im> +1 to self
2024-12-18 16:19:07 <@asamalik:fedora.im> just to clarify, we are voting on basically notifying FESCO to undo it, not doing the undo ourselves, correct? 
2024-12-18 16:19:08 <@salimma:fedora.im> can we not say "reverted" because it implies permanency? temporarily reverted is fine, on hold is fine
2024-12-18 16:19:23 <@salimma:fedora.im> this is basically an "injunction" right
2024-12-18 16:19:26 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> The wording matters here
2024-12-18 16:19:30 <@jbrooks:matrix.org> I don't see an issue w/ waiting for FESCo to return, so, not reverting for now. What's the rush in taking this additional action?
2024-12-18 16:19:34 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> reverted implies overriding FESCo
2024-12-18 16:19:34 <@mattdm:fedora.im> I see this as a kind of "judicial stay" without prejudice either way, because clearly something went wrong
2024-12-18 16:19:54 <@ffmancera:fedora.im> I think "packaging privileges should be put on hold" means temp. reverted
2024-12-18 16:20:06 <@salimma:fedora.im> agreed
2024-12-18 16:20:34 <@amoloney:fedora.im> It does, and I agree with Michel Lind 🎩 UTC-6 's suggestion to use wording that suggests this is a temporary measure
2024-12-18 16:20:47 <@asamalik:fedora.im> (that is, reverted)  ->  (that is, being given back for now) 
2024-12-18 16:20:53 <@salimma:fedora.im> fwiw I'm one of the FESCo members and regardless of the outcome, if council wants to ask for a stay during the investigation that seems reasonable
2024-12-18 16:21:00 <@mattdm:fedora.im> +1 asamalik. That's a good neutral wording
2024-12-18 16:21:02 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> Please do not use verbiage that implies you are overriding FESCo
2024-12-18 16:21:15 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> as that hasn't been decided yet
2024-12-18 16:21:32 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> also note that the change has apparently not even taken effect yet:
2024-12-18 16:21:32 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> https://src.fedoraproject.org/user/pbrobinson/groups
2024-12-18 16:21:36 <@bookwar:fedora.im> I think it is more or less optics, but since it is going to be (mis)quoted all over the place let's just explictily say "put on hold". Whether one needs to flip a switch somewhere - is a technical detail.
2024-12-18 16:21:51 <@mattdm:fedora.im> Thanks Fabio -- that's a useful note
2024-12-18 16:22:03 <@salimma:fedora.im> "Council asks that FESCo..." would be reasonable wording right?
2024-12-18 16:22:19 <@amoloney:fedora.im> The council would like to put the decision (and related outcomes of that decision, ie packager rights, access, etc) on hold until an investigation is completed to determine if packager guidelines have been broken in such a way that results in someone being stripped of their rights
2024-12-18 16:22:20 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> It depends.
2024-12-18 16:23:09 <@asamalik:fedora.im> Proposal: Council asks that FESCo's decision to revoke Peter Robinson's proven packaging privileges should be put on hold (that is, being given back for now) until the Council completes our investigation.
2024-12-18 16:23:23 <@salimma:fedora.im> I appreciate we're being careful over language here, since I feel that was part of the problem with the announcements over the past week
2024-12-18 16:23:42 <@zodbot:fedora.im> salimma gave a cookie to asamalik. They now have 78 cookies, 1 of which were obtained in the Fedora 41 release cycle
2024-12-18 16:24:02 <@zodbot:fedora.im> mattdm gave a cookie to asamalik. They now have 79 cookies, 2 of which were obtained in the Fedora 41 release cycle
2024-12-18 16:24:05 <@zodbot:fedora.im> mattdm gave a cookie to salimma. They now have 53 cookies, 7 of which were obtained in the Fedora 41 release cycle
2024-12-18 16:24:10 <@zodbot:fedora.im> amoloney gave a cookie to salimma. They now have 54 cookies, 8 of which were obtained in the Fedora 41 release cycle
2024-12-18 16:24:12 <@zodbot:fedora.im> rwright gave a cookie to asamalik. They now have 80 cookies, 3 of which were obtained in the Fedora 41 release cycle
2024-12-18 16:24:13 <@zodbot:fedora.im> rwright gave a cookie to salimma. They now have 55 cookies, 9 of which were obtained in the Fedora 41 release cycle
2024-12-18 16:24:24 <@mattdm:fedora.im> I'm happy with Adam's wording. Any objections?
2024-12-18 16:24:31 <@asamalik:fedora.im> +1 to the proposal I just wrote 
2024-12-18 16:24:40 <@asamalik:fedora.im> (acknowlidging the grammar is like 98% there)
2024-12-18 16:24:41 <@zodbot:fedora.im> ngompa gave a cookie to salimma. They now have 56 cookies, 10 of which were obtained in the Fedora 41 release cycle
2024-12-18 16:24:42 <@zodbot:fedora.im> ffmancera gave a cookie to salimma. They now have 57 cookies, 11 of which were obtained in the Fedora 41 release cycle
2024-12-18 16:24:51 <@dcantrell:fedora.im> I abstain from voting again
2024-12-18 16:24:54 <@bookwar:fedora.im> +1 to Adam
2024-12-18 16:25:01 <@rwright:fedora.im> +1 to adam.
2024-12-18 16:25:05 <@amoloney:fedora.im> +1 to Adam also
2024-12-18 16:25:22 <@ffmancera:fedora.im> +1
2024-12-18 16:25:29 <@jbrooks:matrix.org> I'm 0, I think reverting doesn't mean put on hold
2024-12-18 16:25:31 <@mattdm:fedora.im> +1 ftr
2024-12-18 16:25:44 <@zodbot:fedora.im> ffmancera gave a cookie to asamalik. They now have 81 cookies, 4 of which were obtained in the Fedora 41 release cycle
2024-12-18 16:26:06 <@mattdm:fedora.im> this one doesn't say "reverting", though. and apparently technically it hasn't been implemented.
2024-12-18 16:26:08 <@jbrooks:matrix.org> But, apparently, it hasn't happened yet anyway
2024-12-18 16:26:12 <@mattdm:fedora.im> but 0 is good enough for me :)
2024-12-18 16:26:31 <@jbrooks:matrix.org> It says being given back
2024-12-18 16:26:56 <@jbrooks:matrix.org> FESCo voted to take them, we're voting to give them
2024-12-18 16:27:14 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> right, and that's a problem
2024-12-18 16:27:18 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> it looks like the change has been made in accounts.fedoraproject.org, but has not propagated to all systems yet, i.e. provenpackager group membership is still in effect on src.fedoraproject.org.
2024-12-18 16:27:21 <@amoloney:fedora.im> How about we say '.....put on hold, ie take no further action,....'
2024-12-18 16:27:37 <@jbrooks:matrix.org> And I see no urgency to revert or stay their decision 
2024-12-18 16:27:42 <@amoloney:fedora.im> if its not been implemented, we are then asking for them to not implement the removal, for now
2024-12-18 16:27:56 <@asamalik:fedora.im> it has, see thread above - it just hasn't propagated to all systems
2024-12-18 16:28:38 <@amoloney:fedora.im> ah, nvm
2024-12-18 16:28:48 <@amoloney:fedora.im> then the orignial suggestion from Adam works
2024-12-18 16:28:52 <@asamalik:fedora.im> so 6 +1 / 1 +0 / 0 -1
2024-12-18 16:28:55 <@salimma:fedora.im> this might be the quirk of "if you don't log off and log back on nothing happens"
2024-12-18 16:29:01 <@amoloney:fedora.im> then the original suggestion from Adam works
2024-12-18 16:29:09 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> it is, as that's when group sync happens
2024-12-18 16:29:34 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> since it's an OIDC thing
2024-12-18 16:30:21 <@mattdm:fedora.im> !agreed Council asks that FESCo's decision to revoke Peter Robinson's proven packaging privileges should be put on hold (that is, being given back for now) until the Council completes our investigation.
2024-12-18 16:30:27 <@bookwar:fedora.im> I think you consider purely technical aspect of the situation - whether a certain account has certain permissions. But we should also consider the process-wise ans social implications. We are claiming that we are holding on the decision. We ask everyone(not just FESCo) to not consider this matter decided either way for now.
2024-12-18 16:30:44 <@mattdm:fedora.im> !info Jason Brooks abstains, noting that he doesn't see an urgency to staying or reverting the decision
2024-12-18 16:31:17 <@asamalik:fedora.im> who opens the FESCO ticket?
2024-12-18 16:31:23 <@mattdm:fedora.im> asamalik: me.
2024-12-18 16:31:25 <@jbrooks:matrix.org> I'm thinking about that, too. About the implications for part of our governance being overridden by another, when there's no real urgency
2024-12-18 16:31:34 <@zodbot:fedora.im> asamalik gave a cookie to mattdm. They now have 165 cookies, 1 of which were obtained in the Fedora 41 release cycle
2024-12-18 16:32:30 <@zodbot:fedora.im> farchord gave a cookie to mattdm. They now have 166 cookies, 2 of which were obtained in the Fedora 41 release cycle
2024-12-18 16:32:41 <@mattdm:fedora.im> fair. but I think -- in absence of any concern about urgent _harm_ -- we should err on the non-punitive side
2024-12-18 16:32:43 <@zodbot:fedora.im> ffmancera gave a cookie to mattdm. They now have 167 cookies, 3 of which were obtained in the Fedora 41 release cycle
2024-12-18 16:33:06 <@jbrooks:matrix.org> Stop digging is always an option 🙂
2024-12-18 16:33:22 <@jbrooks:matrix.org> This is more digging
2024-12-18 16:34:49 <@amoloney:fedora.im> So there is two things I see at play - one being the investigation into the packaging guidelines part, and one being the review of process (or lack thereof) for situations like this
2024-12-18 16:34:55 <@ffmancera:fedora.im> I need to leave now, anyway, I will start working on the written report ASAP. Thank you for everything!
2024-12-18 16:35:17 <@mattdm:fedora.im> I don't think it's more digging. But we can disagree on that, I guess.
2024-12-18 16:35:32 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> correction - it's not about packaging guidelines, but Provenpackager policy and Package maintianer responsibilities.
2024-12-18 16:35:57 <@amoloney:fedora.im> apologies, and thank you for the clarificaiton :)
2024-12-18 16:36:04 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> the former is under FPC purview, the latter two are FESCo policies.
2024-12-18 16:36:05 <@amoloney:fedora.im> apologies, and thank you for the clarification :)
2024-12-18 16:37:09 <@mattdm:fedora.im> I haven't even had breakfast yet and it is lunchtime, so I need to go soon too. Thank you everyone for being thoughtful and serious about this.
2024-12-18 16:37:45 <@mattdm:fedora.im> oh yeah also:
2024-12-18 16:38:22 <@mattdm:fedora.im> !info As he is also a FESCo member, David Cantrell abstains from the Council vote
2024-12-18 16:38:30 <@mattdm:fedora.im> anything else, anyone?
2024-12-18 16:38:44 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> re/ investigation: I would like to make it explicit that I (speaking for myself, as the OP of both fesco tickets) consent to the Council being given full access (where possible), including the draft of the "public" fesco ticket we wanted to file.  dcantrell is member of both groups IIUC so he should be able to facilitate this?
2024-12-18 16:38:48 <@bookwar:fedora.im> I would also consider a blanket rule for "Any FESCo private vote must involve Council n advance"
2024-12-18 16:39:23 <@amoloney:fedora.im> !action mattdm to open a ticket to FESCo following this meeting making councils request
2024-12-18 16:40:15 <@amoloney:fedora.im> !action ffmancera will conduct a review of proven packager policy and the apparent violation of such and subsequent decision to remove packaging rights of those in apparent violation
2024-12-18 16:40:58 <@mattdm:fedora.im> thank you Aoife Moloney !
2024-12-18 16:41:33 <@mattdm:fedora.im> https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/3305
2024-12-18 16:41:36 <@amoloney:fedora.im> !info There is a lot more to unpack and learn from from this decision, and the Council and FESCo should find time to work together in 2025 to solutionize a better way of handling sensitive and impactful issues for the projecet
2024-12-18 16:41:37 <@mattdm:fedora.im> !link https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/3305
2024-12-18 16:42:06 <@amoloney:fedora.im> I think that covers most/all of the stuff that we can realistically expect to talk about right now
2024-12-18 16:42:12 <@amoloney:fedora.im> thanks for opening the ticket too!
2024-12-18 16:42:19 <@zodbot:fedora.im> mattdm gave a cookie to amoloney. They now have 68 cookies, 14 of which were obtained in the Fedora 41 release cycle
2024-12-18 16:42:21 <@amoloney:fedora.im> I will end the meeting unless theres anything else?
2024-12-18 16:42:37 <@zodbot:fedora.im> salimma gave a cookie to amoloney. They now have 69 cookies, 15 of which were obtained in the Fedora 41 release cycle
2024-12-18 16:42:47 <@amoloney:fedora.im> !endmeeting