#meeting-1:fedoraproject.org log

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

19:06:57

!startmeeting Alterative Images (2024-11-14)

<@meetbot:fedora.im>

19:06:59

Meeting started at 2024-11-14 19:06:57 UTC

<@meetbot:fedora.im>

19:06:59

The Meeting name is 'Alterative Images (2024-11-14)'

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

19:07:08

!meetingname AltImages

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

19:07:08

!topic aloha

<@meetbot:fedora.im>

19:07:08

The Meeting Name is now AltImages

<@rcallicotte:fedora.im>

19:07:52

!hi

<@zodbot:fedora.im>

19:07:54

Robby Callicotte (rcallicotte) - he / him / his

<@rcallicotte:fedora.im>

19:08:41

It's been an abnormally busy November so far at $dayjob

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

19:09:04

Hi Robby Callicotte

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

19:09:14

Yep, me to.

<@nhanlon:beeper.com>

19:09:22

!hi

<@zodbot:fedora.im>

19:09:23

Neil Hanlon (neil) - he / him / his

<@nhanlon:beeper.com>

19:09:25

(and, thirded)

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

19:09:34

Hi Neil Hanlon

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

19:09:37

!hi

<@zodbot:fedora.im>

19:09:38

Neal Gompa (ngompa) - he / him / his

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

19:09:44

Hi Conan Kudo

<@nhanlon:beeper.com>

19:09:46

good afternoon y'all

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

19:10:28

Let's start with the requested features.

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

19:10:31

!link https://pagure.io/centos-sig-alt-images/sig/issues?tags=Feature+Request&status=Open

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

19:10:31

!topic Requested Features

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

19:11:00

https://pagure.io/centos-sig-alt-images/sig/issue/8

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

19:11:33

So, many thanks to Conan Kudo for getting a patch to the live installer.

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

19:11:45

well, it's not merged yet

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

19:12:04

!link https://github.com/rhinstaller/anaconda/pull/5995

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

19:12:18

I'm also not sure what's going on with it, because I got a confusing reply in the PR

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

19:12:22

True ... but ... we do control the rpm ... so if it takes a while, we can always make it a patch to the rpm I think.

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

19:13:03

Oh, I didn't see that reply ... ya ... that's odd.

<@rcallicotte:fedora.im>

19:13:11

the backport comment... what does that mean?

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

19:14:40

Maybe they want to backport them to the regular installer? So they would be there instead of the live installer ... possibly.

<@davide:cavalca.name>

19:14:48

!hi

<@zodbot:fedora.im>

19:14:49

Davide Cavalca (dcavalca) - he / him / his

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

19:14:54

Hi Davide Cavalca

<@salimma:fedora.im>

19:15:25

!hi

<@zodbot:fedora.im>

19:15:26

Michel Lind (salimma) - he / him / his

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

19:15:32

Hi Michel Lind 🎩 UTC-6

<@salimma:fedora.im>

19:15:38

oh duh I remember there'll be an alt sig meeting half an hour ago, drove back for it, then forgot to jion

<@salimma:fedora.im>

19:15:43

oh duh I remember there'll be an alt sig meeting half an hour ago, drove back for it, then forgot to join

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

19:16:02

That's ok, we started late, because I forgot to ... I got talking on the EPEL channel.

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

19:16:05

it requires code changes to the core installer code

<@rcallicotte:fedora.im>

19:16:19

the time change is always a beast

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

19:16:34

That's ok, we started late, because I forgot too ... I got talking on the EPEL channel.

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

19:17:39

Anyway ... it's progress. Thank you very much Conan Kudo . Hopefully by next month, we'll have a working live installer for our 10 images.

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

19:17:53

yeah I hope so too :)

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

19:18:28

!link https://pagure.io/centos-sig-alt-images/sig/issue/4

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

19:18:54

I was supposed to work on this, and I haven't had any time this past month. So it's just sat there.

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

19:19:28

!link https://pagure.io/centos-sig-alt-images/sig/issue/3

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

19:19:51

Robby Callicotte: last meeting you said you'd try to take a look at this. Were you able to this past month?

<@rcallicotte:fedora.im>

19:20:11

sadly no.

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

19:20:41

Understood. You'd said earlier that this past month had been very busy.

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

19:21:05

!topic Latest News

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

19:21:44

This past month was the CentOS Showcase, and AltImages has two presentations.

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

19:22:21

!link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8qKmkZxj6w

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

19:22:55

That was "Alt Uses for Alt Images" ... it was a short summary of what we'd done in the past 6 months, with a short demo.

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

19:23:09

!link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cERMntyJuxc

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

19:23:44

That was "CentOS Stream on Windows" ... a bit longer live demo of installing our WSL image on Windows.

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

19:24:13

I think they both went pretty well, and I appreciate the participation and feedback.

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

19:25:23

As far as I know, that was all that we did in the past month. Did I miss anything ... before I move to what's coming up?

<@davide:cavalca.name>

19:26:16

I made some progress on the Apple Silicon stuff, we now have m1n1 submitted for EPEL

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

19:27:08

That is very cool. And that gives more motivation to get the raw images working.

<@davide:cavalca.name>

19:27:16

and I submitted a talk for SCALE to present this work in March of next year, assuming we'll be done by then :)

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

19:28:37

!topic Whats Next

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

19:29:01

That would be cool to see the talk at SCALE.

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

19:29:26

I've submitted a AltImages talk at CentOS Connect.

<@salimma:fedora.im>

19:29:45

oh, it's CFP time already!

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

19:29:53

it is

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

19:29:59

the CFP opened yesterday for Connect I think

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

19:30:08

I'm not really sure we need a "workshop" there. I was sorta hoping we could be part of the Hyperscale workshop

<@salimma:fedora.im>

19:30:33

yeah, a Hyperscale/Alt Images workshop seems useful

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

19:31:40

So, I'll let the HyperScale people do the workshop (I think they are called workshops), and if you want to add me as "co-presentor" that will be fine.

<@salimma:fedora.im>

19:32:36

btw CentOS Promo meeting just started

<@salimma:fedora.im>

19:32:42

for those who are also attending that

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

19:33:35

At some point in the near future, CentOS Stream 10 and EPEL 10 will be officially released. I have a question. Should we release 10 AltImages, even if we don't have a working installer? Or hold off?

<@rcallicotte:fedora.im>

19:34:52

I vote hold off... I think it might alienate some folks to get their hands on somethngi and it not function fully

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

19:35:11

That's a very good point.

<@salimma:fedora.im>

19:35:27

what's missing in the installer? (I feel like this was discussed earlier and I missed it, sorry)

<@rcallicotte:fedora.im>

19:35:35

the wayland backport

<@salimma:fedora.im>

19:35:41

<@rcallicotte:fedora.im>

19:35:48

its a huge part

<@rcallicotte:fedora.im>

19:36:17

but... would it be insane to just patch that PR into the rpm build??

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

19:36:18

the installer doesn't work yet

<@rcallicotte:fedora.im>

19:36:27

ah ok

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

19:36:30

for hyperscale, we ship a custom build of anaconda anyway

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

19:36:42

so I will carry it for us, but alt images needs to work with stock anaconda

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

19:37:14

<sarcasm>Yippeee!!</sarcasm>

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

19:37:18

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

19:37:22

(we need the custom build to support btrfs)

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

19:37:53

There is also the Firefox issue, but I'm pretty sure I can get that on, I just haven't had time to do it.

<@salimma:fedora.im>

19:38:06

I need to reboot, my fedora machine thought it lost all audio devices

<@salimma:fedora.im>

19:38:07

gosh

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

19:38:41

probably we should look at what it would take to branch and sync firefox from fedora into epel

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

19:38:46

same for thunderbird

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

19:39:17

There is some discussion about Jonathon from Alma bringing Alma's version over to EPEL 10.

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

19:39:54

but we definitely need a web browser or it would be hard for people to find documentation 😅

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

19:40:02

My plan will deal with flatpak's, I'll be using Fedora's flatpak repo.

<@salimma:fedora.im>

19:40:07

It should be renamed to Firefox-esr then right?

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

19:40:12

yeah

<@salimma:fedora.im>

19:40:23

So folks on fedora can use it too

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

19:40:27

I'm not in that discussion, I just know it's going on.

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

19:40:41

I dunno who would want that on Fedora, but sure

<@rcallicotte:fedora.im>

19:41:12

What does the "esr" mean?

<@salimma:fedora.im>

19:41:29

it's basically LTS

<@salimma:fedora.im>

19:41:36

extended... stability... or support... release

<@rcallicotte:fedora.im>

19:41:38

thats not eric raymond? oh.. haha ok

<@salimma:fedora.im>

19:41:45

gosh hope not

<@salimma:fedora.im>

19:41:52

but yeah ugh, thanks for that mental image

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

19:42:03

Or run the gui version of Subscription Manager ... if you know ... you ever needed to do that. ;)

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

19:42:24

🤦‍♂️

<@rcallicotte:fedora.im>

19:42:44

sorry Michel Lind 🎩 UTC-6 haha

<@salimma:fedora.im>

19:42:49

it can't run with firefox flatpak?

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

19:43:34

according to the RHEL 10 beta release notes, you can't preload flatpaks :)

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

19:44:03

And you have to be registered to get them.

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

19:44:11

which creates a fun catch-22

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

19:44:22

And you have to be registered to get them from the RHEL repositories.

<@salimma:fedora.im>

19:44:45

w.... hy....

<@rcallicotte:fedora.im>

19:44:50

this whole situation sounds less fun

<@salimma:fedora.im>

19:44:58

I don't even want to know

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

19:45:17

Anyway ... I'm going to make sure we have a browser on our AltImages 10 machiens.

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

19:45:21

actually to the best of my knowledge, there isn't a method for doing it even in flatpak itself with regular ones

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

19:45:26

Anyway ... I'm going to make sure we have a browser on our AltImages 10 images.

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

19:45:30

at least I think Falkon will be available in EPEL, so there is that

<@salimma:fedora.im>

19:46:03

oh, no, I mean having the recommended firefox flatpak gated behind subscription

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

19:46:25

oh that's probably more of a "they didn't realize the problem until way too late" issue

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

19:46:53

RHEL 10 is the first release where they decided to try flatpaks for GUI apps from the Red Hat certified software catalog/marketplace thing

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

19:46:55

They do have command line instructions.

<@salimma:fedora.im>

19:46:57

I'm all for not helping people fix self-inflicted problems these days

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

19:47:27

we also will have chromium in EPEL

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

19:47:58

but personally speaking, I'd like to have firefox in EPEL too, I just don't know if there's someone who wants to work with the firefox maintainer on doing this

<@salimma:fedora.im>

19:48:20

it will be... tricky right. since the package won't be the same

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

19:48:30

it could be if we just take the fedora one

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

19:48:37

we don't _have_ to follow the rhel one

<@salimma:fedora.im>

19:48:49

ESR is updated less often, sure, and hopefully is similar enough you can carry over the spec as is, but dealing with CVEs won't be fun

<@salimma:fedora.im>

19:48:56

right, definitely start with the fedora one

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

19:49:19

the rhel spec is... gruesome since it contains logic to build going back to rhel 7

<@salimma:fedora.im>

19:49:21

at least it's not a library where you have to try and maintain ABI :)

<@salimma:fedora.im>

19:49:58

yeah, definitely makes more sense to start over from scratch - rather than ... I think Alma currently just builds the latest c10s Firefox spec, so it's the old RHEL one?

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

19:51:06

We're getting short on time. Do we have any other topics / things to discuss?

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

19:51:59

Oh, as soon as I get KDE in EPEL10 proper (and it should be withing days), I'll work on the KDE Live 10 image.

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

19:52:01

one other thing

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

19:52:07

awesome

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

19:52:11

but there is one big heads-up

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

19:53:17

Red Hat has decided to deprecate squashfs in RHEL 10 beta

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

19:53:19

!link https://docs.redhat.com/en/documentation/red_hat_enterprise_linux/10-beta/html/10.0_beta_release_notes/deprecated-features#Jira-RHELDOCS-18903

<@rcallicotte:fedora.im>

19:53:32

mic drop

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

19:53:47

This is a big deal because currently squashfs is used for all live image creation

<@rcallicotte:fedora.im>

19:54:10

what is the proposed replacement?

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

19:54:13

Ohh ... ok

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

19:54:32

there is good news though: kiwi added support for erofs based live images two months ago

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

19:54:35

!link https://github.com/OSInside/kiwi/pull/2645

<@salimma:fedora.im>

19:54:35

so... we get to put it in epel for 11 I guess

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

19:55:04

most likely with squashfuse as they will probably disable squashfs in the kernel in RHEL 11

<@salimma:fedora.im>

19:55:13

Davide Cavalca has been poking around at using erofs with mkosi too

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

19:55:18

Right now, our koji builders are still running 9, correct. So that should keep us going for now? ... oh .... ok, it's for RHEL 11, it's just depricated now.

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

19:55:25

yes

<@salimma:fedora.im>

19:55:34

(so since the mkosi CI uses Ubuntu LTS I had to backport the latest version in our PPA)

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

19:55:42

I actually already have a PR open on the Fedora side to switch to erofs as part of Modernize Live Media

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

19:55:54

!link https://pagure.io/fedora-kiwi-descriptions/pull-request/87

<@salimma:fedora.im>

19:55:55

it's still at the compatibility level that RH promises to maintain it for the duration of 10, right?

<@salimma:fedora.im>

19:55:58

I have not checked that part

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

19:56:00

yes

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

19:56:10

though I dunno how it goes with beta to final

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

19:56:13

but ordinarily, yes

<@jaboutboul:matrix.org>

19:56:18

Conan Kudoapologies for chiming in late, but I am in another meeting

<@salimma:fedora.im>

19:56:21

this would be useful news for those at work I guess, we probably have some squashfs use case internally

<@jaboutboul:matrix.org>

19:56:29

folks from the alma team are working on submitting Firefox to EPEL

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

19:56:35

oh sweet!

<@salimma:fedora.im>

19:56:37

oh right, the package set is technically not fixed yet

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

19:56:38

thanks themayor

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

19:57:05

the squashfs deprecation was a genuine surprise for me

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

19:57:42

nss will probably get upgraded in rhel anyway since the firefox flatpak is built as an rpm first

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

19:57:49

and then wrapped into flatpak

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

19:58:04

but failing that, we'll just make versioned packages

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

19:58:08

it's not that big of a deal

<@salimma:fedora.im>

19:58:15

huh... so grabbing *that* spec and rebuilding it in EPEL also works, as an option?

<@salimma:fedora.im>

19:58:26

or it's not a good idea because it's not meant to be consumed directly?

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

19:58:29

that's the spec alma is working from, presumably

<@yselkowitz:fedora.im>

19:59:02

"presume nothing, question everything"?

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

19:59:08

lol

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

19:59:16

anyway

<@rcallicotte:fedora.im>

19:59:20

hehe

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

19:59:50

the important highlight is that I'll be moving fedora's kiwi descriptions to erofs for f42 as part of modernize live media and moving fedora kde to kiwi

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

20:00:08

and centos hyperscale and alt images should probably make similar transitions

<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>

20:00:13

for c10s images

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

20:01:29

I think erofs is already in 10, so ... wouldn't hurt ... I probrubly won't try it for the first images, but after we get going, yep.

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

20:01:35

Looks like our time is up

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

20:02:03

Thank you all for the good discussions, and especially got helping the AltImages SIG continue to grow and develop.

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

20:02:17

I'll talk to ya'll elsewhere, and next month.

<@rcallicotte:fedora.im>

20:02:40

bye! thanks Troy Dawson

<@tdawson:fedora.im>

20:02:42

!endmeeting