18:00:12 <felixfontein> #startmeeting Ansible Community Meeting
18:00:12 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Sep 22 18:00:12 2021 UTC.
18:00:12 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
18:00:12 <zodbot> The chair is felixfontein. Information about MeetBot at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Zodbot#Meeting_Functions.
18:00:12 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
18:00:12 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'ansible_community_meeting'
18:00:12 <felixfontein> #topic Agenda https://github.com/ansible/community/issues/539
18:00:12 <felixfontein> abadger1999 acozine andersson007_ baptistemm bcoca briantist cyberpear cybette dericcrago dmsimard felixfontein geerlingguy gundalow gwmngilfen ikhan_ jillr jtanner lmodemal misc nitzmahone resmo samccann tadeboro cidrblock thaumos zbr: ping!
18:00:16 <felixfontein> #info Agenda: https://github.com/ansible/community/issues/539 / Topics: https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics
18:00:17 <andersson007_> o/
18:00:31 <tadeboro> o/
18:00:34 <Toshio[m]> Boa tarde!
18:00:39 <cybette> o&
18:00:40 <gundalow> o/
18:00:51 <cybette> oops wrong keyboard layout
18:00:53 <cybette> o/
18:01:42 <felixfontein> #chair cidrblock[m] andersson007_ tadeboro Toshio[m] cybette gundalow
18:01:42 <zodbot> Current chairs: Toshio[m] andersson007_ cidrblock[m] cybette felixfontein gundalow tadeboro
18:01:50 <dmsimard> o/
18:01:50 <felixfontein> sorry, just had to change room :)
18:01:56 * acozine waaves
18:01:58 <acozine> er, waves
18:02:08 <felixfontein> #chair dmsimard acozine
18:02:08 <zodbot> Current chairs: Toshio[m] acozine andersson007_ cidrblock[m] cybette dmsimard felixfontein gundalow tadeboro
18:02:13 <briantist> will lurk a bit but I probably should not be furniture today
18:02:19 <felixfontein> #chair briantist
18:02:19 <zodbot> Current chairs: Toshio[m] acozine andersson007_ briantist cidrblock[m] cybette dmsimard felixfontein gundalow tadeboro
18:02:21 <felixfontein> oh
18:02:24 <felixfontein> #unchair briantist
18:02:24 <zodbot> Current chairs: Toshio[m] acozine andersson007_ cidrblock[m] cybette dmsimard felixfontein gundalow tadeboro
18:02:26 <felixfontein> sorry :)
18:02:29 <briantist> heh np
18:02:59 <cidrblock[m]> Toshio くらとみ: what did you scribble after your name? :)
18:04:00 <felixfontein> #topic Updates
18:04:01 <briantist> it's Kuratomi in Japanese (hiragana)
18:04:08 <felixfontein> #info community.dns 2.0.0 has been released
18:04:13 <felixfontein> (like, just now :) )
18:04:15 <Toshio[m]> cidrblock: My last name in Hiragana.  (Since I'm using my Fedora matrix id, it takes my name from the Fedora Account System)
18:04:35 <cidrblock[m]> nice
18:04:40 <Toshio[m]> I used Hiragana there to find places where unicode handling was broken.
18:05:13 <felixfontein> at my main test account at work I've some HTML sequences in my name, for similar reasons ;)
18:05:28 <Toshio[m]> hee hee.
18:05:40 <briantist> can find くらとみ throughout the ansible codebase too, figured it was for unicode stuff :)
18:05:42 <Toshio[m]> A little less destructive than Little bobby tables ;-)
18:05:50 <felixfontein> hehe ;)
18:05:51 <Toshio[m]> Yep.
18:06:38 * dericcrago waves
18:06:45 <felixfontein> gwmngilfen-work: are you around?
18:06:49 <felixfontein> #chair dericcrago
18:06:49 <zodbot> Current chairs: Toshio[m] acozine andersson007_ cidrblock[m] cybette dericcrago dmsimard felixfontein gundalow tadeboro
18:07:09 <tadeboro> felixfontein: I think Greg said he will be away for the meeting.
18:07:16 <dmsimard> #info slack bridge for ansible-network is underway, hoping to have it ready for next week (via Greg)
18:07:31 <gundalow> Nop Greg isn't around
18:07:34 <gwmngilfen> not really :P
18:07:50 <felixfontein> let's still start with:
18:07:51 <felixfontein> #topic History visibility in chat
18:07:51 <felixfontein> #info Discussion: https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/43
18:08:45 <cybette> Greg has his votes and clear explanation in the issue, we should be able to discuss it even if he's not around
18:09:15 <felixfontein> I think so too
18:09:42 <felixfontein> I'm +1 on 'members only from now' logging as well
18:10:10 <felixfontein> +0.5 for 'anyone' - but we definitely have to announce this and make it clear in the channel's topic
18:10:33 <Toshio[m]> I voted in the ticket +1 to either form of logging.  I feel that opening the logs to the public is helpful in the same way mailing list archives are helpful.  We just need to make sure to make it prominent that  the channels are logged.
18:10:49 <gundalow> Thanks to everybody that's given feedback on that.
18:11:03 <acozine> I'm definitely +1 on members only
18:11:27 <tadeboro> I already voted, but as most of you said, +1 on logging if we communicate that clearly.
18:11:47 <acozine> the "anyone" setting feels a bit more alien/unexpected
18:11:52 <felixfontein> does anyone currently have doubts about +1 for logs for members? (or isn't sure what exactly that means?)
18:11:55 <cidrblock[m]> voted, +1 for both options
18:12:15 <gundalow> I'm in a private channel with the folks that run Libera.chat, so I can ask what they suggest for making sure the notices are clear.
18:12:18 <acozine> for me there's a balance between visibility and what i might call forgettability
18:12:35 <felixfontein> gundalow: that would be great!
18:12:38 <gwmngilfen> i'll put one comment real quick :)
18:12:49 <acozine> would a newcomer feel awkward asking a "stupid" question if she knew it would live forever with a shareable URL?
18:13:11 <felixfontein> acozine: since anyone can become a member by clicking a button, basically anyone can read up the history (from the time its logged), even if it is not set to anyone
18:13:23 <gwmngilfen> the difference is really "can you see the history before you join"  or "after you join". A user can still join to see it
18:13:26 <acozine> heh, fair enough
18:13:38 <dmsimard> Users can still delete messages if they are uncomfortable leaving them forever
18:13:49 <acozine> okay, +1 then for "log it all"
18:13:54 <gwmngilfen> acozine: for those of us on matrix, you can delete messages if you are uncomfortable with them ;)
18:14:00 * gwmngilfen has to run again
18:14:05 <felixfontein> I guess publishing logs outside of matrix would have to be voted on again?
18:14:36 <dmsimard> publishing logs for what purpose ?
18:14:49 <felixfontein> searchability
18:15:01 <remindbot[m]> @cybette:ansible.im cyb-clock chimes every 15 minutes during the community meeting
18:15:06 <felixfontein> resp. having a public archive that's easier to use (matrix isn't the best ever UI for searching logs :) )
18:15:18 <tadeboro> Do we even intend to publish them in some way? I got the feeling that for now, they will be only available in matrix.
18:15:37 * cyberpear arrives late again
18:15:45 <felixfontein> I don't think we do (or at least I'm not aware), I just want to make clear that this would require another vote IMO
18:15:49 <felixfontein> #chair cyberpear
18:15:49 <zodbot> Current chairs: Toshio[m] acozine andersson007_ cidrblock[m] cyberpear cybette dericcrago dmsimard felixfontein gundalow tadeboro
18:15:52 <cyberpear> logbot-dot-info was super useful before freenode went away
18:16:04 <tadeboro> So I would say this publishing part is out-of-scope for current discussion and should be tackled separatelly if we need it.
18:16:15 <Toshio[m]> If I read Gwm (non-work) 's comment correctly, matrix can give you a url to share.  So it sounds like with "anyone", they would be available outside of matrix?
18:16:45 <gwmngilfen> its still matrix
18:17:02 <cybette> but public
18:17:05 <gwmngilfen> but it means you dont need to be logged in
18:17:09 <sivel> Hrm, the matrix bridge is now making me question whether I am ok with participating in IRC
18:17:20 <gundalow> > Some projects may wish to log their channels publicly, if you do so the logging should be authorised by the channel owners and users in the channel should be notified (through for instance the topic, entry message, or similar) that public logging is taking place.
18:17:20 <gundalow> > Channel operators should consider ways for users to make unlogged comments and a process for requesting the removal of certain logs.
18:17:35 <gundalow> From https://libera.chat/policies/#public-logging
18:17:44 <sivel> We've always had a no logging policy, which meant that only individual users were there could possibly have the logs
18:17:46 <felixfontein> sivel: because of the logging, or because you can't edit your messages?
18:17:53 <sivel> felixfontein: because of logging
18:18:03 <Toshio[m]> Gwm (non-work): Ah, so the URL opens up the matrix web app pointing to the conversation but you're anonymous?
18:18:11 <gwmngilfen> we can redact messages on request, per libera policy, yes
18:18:13 <sivel> everyone regardless of "being there" would have access to effectively published logs
18:18:21 <cyberpear> in the #ansible-lockdown channel we had public logging setup when we were still on freenode
18:20:20 <Toshio[m]> My recollection is that we've never had a no logging policy.  We had looked into several ways to logging before and decided (1) they would have required us to run our own infrastructure and (2) they would have required us to mention that channels were logged which we couldn't do in a coordinated way across all the ansible freenode channels.
18:20:47 <Toshio[m]> So it was kind of "Too much effort and coordination so we aren't going to do this" rather than "We hate logging so we arent going to do this"
18:20:47 <tadeboro> I am +1 on logging because it is quite a different experience if you log into something and you can see right away what to expect. Startting with a blank IRC screen was not the best user experience.
18:20:51 <cyberpear> (logging was announced in the channel topic for -lockdown)
18:21:13 <acozine> sivel: what is the downside you see to logging?
18:21:15 <bcoca> we had a no logging policy from the MPD days, we have reviewed/revisited it several times but never changed it
18:21:31 <bcoca> cyberpear: some avoided that channel specifically for that reason
18:21:50 <gundalow> tadeboro exactly. Someone new has no idea of if the channel is active, what types of discussions are acceptable
18:21:55 <acozine> bcoca: interesting, what is/was the reasoning?
18:22:17 <gwmngilfen> logging could be seen as needed for CoC enforcement too. an official record of the incident is useful
18:22:19 <bcoca> acozine: some people dont like to be logged when asking questions
18:22:23 <gwmngilfen> although that is a gray area
18:22:29 <sivel> acozine: IRC etiquette
18:22:42 <gwmngilfen> doent happen often, thankfully
18:23:52 <acozine> yeah, the questions thing was my concern - as in "I won't ask because I'm afraid this ignorant thing I don't know is going to haunt me forever"
18:24:01 <acozine> but that's also partly a cultural thing
18:24:59 <bcoca> acozine: or that it reveals too much about what im working on and it should not be easily known
18:25:09 <dmsimard> acozine: I can relate to "I won't ask because I'm afraid this ignorant thing I don't know is going to haunt me forever" but over a lot of mediums (like github issue/discussions) :p
18:25:23 <acozine> I mean, if we have a culture of responding to Dumb Question Number 237 with "Glad you asked, the answer is X and here's a link" rather than "RTFM and don't bother us again" then the problem could solve itself
18:25:33 <felixfontein> maybe it would make sense to have logging only in some channels/rooms? avoiding the ones which are mainly for support (like #ansible) and for social (#ansible-social) is probably a good idea in respect to the above points.
18:25:41 <sivel> Yeah, so I think fundamentally if the logging configuration is changed, to basiaclly make the logs public, I'll have to re-evaluate participating in IRC, unless all of my messages can be redacted outside of meetings where I am expecting to be recorded
18:25:42 <Toshio[m]> acozine: +1
18:26:10 <Toshio[m]> felixfontein: yeah, although I'd phrase that as turn off logging for a select few channels.
18:26:48 <gwmngilfen> to tadeboro's point, #ansible is one room where knowing the history (and thus the culture) of a channel is useful to get a good response to a question
18:26:50 <felixfontein> Toshio[m]: I don't mind which way around, but there clearly need to be non-logged channels/rooms
18:27:14 <Toshio[m]> felixfontein: Also... I think Gwm (non-work) Thought about logging ansible-social because we're directing people to talk there as the hallway track at the contrib summit so we should consider that too.
18:27:15 <Toshio[m]> feagreed
18:27:25 <Toshio[m]> felixfontein: agreed
18:27:26 <felixfontein> is it possible to just make like the last 24 hours (or so) available to newly joined folks?
18:27:42 <gwmngilfen> no
18:28:03 <felixfontein> (that would allow to see what's going on, without being able to read everything)
18:28:35 <acozine> that would be a nice compromise
18:28:41 <andersson007_> "there clearly need to be non-logged channels/rooms" - commitment room or swearing room for example
18:28:52 <acozine> sigh, technology constraints
18:29:29 <bcoca> that is not considering legal constraints, since those doing the admin are mostly RH/IBM employees there is a lot of legalese to do with logging communications
18:30:01 <remindbot[m]> @cybette:ansible.im cyb-clock chimes every 15 minutes during the community meeting
18:30:13 <bcoca> at least in the US .. now lets consider the international nature of the comunity
18:30:45 <gundalow> OK. Let's step back a bit
18:32:45 <gundalow> To go back to the current problem we are trying to solve. Which I believe is along the lines of "its Contributors Summit next week, we thought it would be good for people joining Matrix for the first time to see what a channel is like (ie type of discussion)"
18:32:59 <gundalow> Is that a fair summary, what have I missed?
18:33:36 <acozine> we were voting specifically on https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/43
18:34:15 <acozine> with two options - allow members to read history/allow anyone to read history
18:34:35 <felixfontein> (and anyone can become a member, there's no approval process or something like that)
18:34:43 <bcoca> acozine: no 'no history' option?
18:34:59 <felixfontein> bcoca: that would be 'no' to both questions
18:35:07 <acozine> bcoca: well, status quo would be "no history"
18:35:16 <dmsimard> there is a nuance between the options -- where one allows to see the history since the beginning of time and the other will see history only from the moment the person joined
18:35:31 <bcoca> k, i would clarify that cause it looks like 'either/or' right now
18:35:52 <felixfontein> dmsimard: on matrix, the latter is already the case - once you join, you see the history from that point on (until you decide to leave)
18:36:03 <Toshio[m]> Just a clarification: Status quo is Members can read history back to when they joined", (1) is allow members to read all history. (2) is allow anyone to read all history
18:36:04 <dmsimard> felixfontein: it's a per-channel setting
18:36:18 <Toshio[m]> There is no true no history option
18:36:32 <cyberpear> I'm +1 to (1) and also +1 to (2)
18:37:02 <dmsimard> The per-channel setting looks like this: https://i.imgur.com/DbMB3Rf.png
18:37:03 <felixfontein> it's a bit like using irccloud, once you join a channel you can read back until that point. so it's not really different from using IRC with a bouncer
18:37:25 <acozine> yep
18:37:50 <sivel> and should we enable logging, it needs to be clearly indicated to users, so they know whether or not they are comfortable with joining
18:38:29 <gwmngilfen> absolutely
18:38:39 <Toshio[m]> sivel: yep, tadeboro, jillr, felixfontein, and myself made that comment on the ticket.
18:39:23 <acozine> in a way, this will be more honest about what's really happening, because as felixfontein said, anyone with IRCcloud or another persistent connection has always had access to history
18:39:23 <gundalow> Yup, and I've linked to Libera.chat's policy document.
18:39:54 <felixfontein> acozine: but only from the point on they joined - which is the same as currently for matrix. so changing the setting would give *more* to people than IRCcloud etc.
18:40:00 <cybette> there is a difference to irccloud/bouncer though - you can get an URL to a specific message (it could be visible to public or room members only)
18:40:48 <gundalow> I notice we are 40 minutes into the meeting. Are there any other topics we have to discuss today?
18:40:54 <bcoca> personal log vs shared log
18:41:14 <Toshio[m]> cybette: <nod> So sharing is easier (before, you'd have to copy a portion of your logs somewhere and then point people to that)
18:41:16 <acozine> true, there are differences, but we couldn't truly say "anything you say in IRC is ephemeral and by tomorrow nobody will be able to access it"
18:41:17 <felixfontein> gundalow: not that I'm aware of. there are a lot of potential topics, but nothing that urgent
18:41:42 <Toshio[m]> acozine: Yeah, I see your point.
18:43:12 <bcoca> acozine: it never was, but there is a different from having clients log vs systematic logging by admins that all work for same corp
18:43:40 <cybette> right, I'm ok for the shared log (1), still on the fence on (2). I just wanted to point out the difference (even if subtle)
18:44:32 <felixfontein> I wonder how many of the 171 nicks in this channel (minus the few bots) would mind being logged
18:45:01 <remindbot[m]> @cybette:ansible.im cyb-clock chimes every 15 minutes during the community meeting
18:45:27 <bcoca> felixfontein: diff from logging #ansible and other channels, also i dont expect it to be a majority anywhere, i just know people that are very concious of this and have spoken up in the past
18:45:43 <dmsimard> felixfontein: I mean, that makes 171 people logging independently on their own clients
18:46:28 <gwmngilfen> while i have been paying 50% attention, I must go read stories now. thanks in advance to everyone for staying civil on a tricky topic, and I await the results eagerly :)
18:46:33 <Toshio[m]> Since the legal aspect keeps coming up, it's doubtful that that is a blocker.  Fedora is doing it and red hat's mailing lists do it.   legal will likely have some feedback on things that our notification  of channels being logged must say and where users need to be told of it but won't have an objection to actually doing it.
18:46:40 <bcoca> i've always been on the fence myself, i have found irc logging to be mostly useless when over 24-48h and understand the privacy concenrs
18:47:15 <tadeboro> About the "is there anything else to discuss": it would be nice if we say something about 33 since that thing is starting to cause quite a few issues latelly.
18:47:30 <bcoca> Toshio[m]: was not reffering to  notification (that is per state and mostly deals with phone, not text communication), but how long they are kept and how long they need to be available for judicial purposes
18:47:51 <felixfontein> tadeboro: should we talk about it for ~10 minutes?
18:48:08 <bcoca> mailing lists fall under email communication and those are very tightly legislated, text/im less so
18:48:23 <tadeboro> felixfontein: At least set some kind of a timeline for tht thing.
18:49:35 <gwmngilfen> oh for the record, all the new Fedora Matrix rooms I am in are set to "anyone"
18:49:46 <Toshio[m]> bcoca: You misunderstand my use of notification.  I mean notification in the sense of , disclaimer, usage terms, topic, etc.
18:50:00 <dmsimard> tadeboro: for #33, I've been wanting to say that there's a non-zero amount of content about resource modules at ansiblefest and contributor summit so I would suggest that we may want to hold out until after the events unless there is a notion of emergency
18:50:06 <Toshio[m]> "We are notifying the user that the channel is logged"
18:50:52 <bcoca> Toshio[m]: understood that, again, you are legally compelled to disclose that in some cases, but most laws refer to voice/video about those disclosures, not text/im/email
18:51:25 <bcoca> i would disclose anyways as i would default to 'transparency' to the user
18:51:55 <sivel> A limitation of something like IRC is that it's too late once the user joins for them to see that the channel is being logged. Due to the limitation of there not being a great way to gate entry on whether a user agrees to logging is another reason I've never allowed it in the channels I've been part of running
18:52:13 <tadeboro> dmsimard: I just want that thing to move since it is starting to affect my day job, which is not fun to deal with at all.
18:52:35 <bcoca> sivel: had not thought of that, 'presence' itself is a log of the user that might be undesired
18:53:05 <dmsimard> tadeboro: I get it.
18:56:09 <andersson007_> tadeboro: dmsimard there's also the inclusion deadline so we should decide something on 33 as soon as possible after the summit. There are at least 2 collections IIRC waiting for review and reviewers should have time to do it not rushing
18:56:31 <acozine> could we start by changing a few channels to "keep history" and see how it goes?
18:57:11 <acozine> s/channels/rooms
18:58:03 <acozine> that would be my vote, anyway
18:58:10 <felixfontein> hmm, time is almost up
18:58:23 <acozine> I have a hard stop at the top of the hour, so I need to step away
18:59:00 <acozine> are we meeting next week? or cancelled-ish in favor of Fest?
18:59:12 <Toshio[m]> acozine: I think gundalow's point about contrib summit coming up means its desirable to change it in most rooms.  Depending on how we're telling people that channels are logged, (thinking docs pages in particular for this) it might also be easier to change most rooms so we can have a blanket statement.  But that could fall under "This is a trial period, we'll update docs once we get it right"
18:59:13 <cidrblock[m]> I'm fine with waiting on #33 as long as time is allowed for the trendmicro inclusion to not be prevented b/c of the delay
18:59:18 <felixfontein> ah, good point
18:59:20 <tadeboro> acozine: Next week is canceled.
18:59:27 <felixfontein> #info Next week's meeting is cancelled due to AnsibleFest
19:00:12 <dmsimard> cidrblock[m]: https://docs.ansible.com/ansible/devel/roadmap/COLLECTIONS_5.html has "2021-10-26 Last day for new collections to be reviewed and approved for inclusion in Ansible-5" which should hopefully provide enough buffer to work that out.
19:00:15 <acozine> Toshio くらとみ: that might be a good option, then we could gather feedback at the Summit too, which is likely to have more folks than today's meeting
19:00:34 * acozine waves
19:00:37 <cidrblock[m]> dmsimard: ty, that was the date I was looking for
19:00:37 <cybette> acozine: +1
19:00:43 <acozine> #unchair acozine
19:00:43 <zodbot> Current chairs: Toshio[m] andersson007_ cidrblock[m] cyberpear cybette dericcrago dmsimard felixfontein gundalow tadeboro
19:00:46 <felixfontein> ok
19:01:00 <felixfontein> does anyone mind if we close the meeting for today?
19:01:09 <cidrblock[m]> later folks, I've got to run
19:01:24 <felixfontein> for logging, I've changed my vote to -1 / -1 so that there is at least one vote reflecting the opposition we have against logging
19:02:11 <sivel> did I not say -1 ?  If not -1 :)
19:02:15 <Toshio[m]> felixfontein: How many votes are we missing for any decision to be made there?
19:02:22 <cybette> we can vote in the github issue, but we probably need a decision before next week
19:02:35 <felixfontein> sivel: I mean in the issue :)
19:02:43 <Toshio[m]> yeah and by that, meaning, today or tomorrow.
19:02:51 <sivel> I can't even find the issues most of the time
19:02:54 <felixfontein> Toshio[m]: I didn't count
19:02:58 <felixfontein> the issue is https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/43
19:03:35 <felixfontein> everyone, please put your votes into that issue as well if you haven't done so already
19:03:36 <bcoca> the kind of people that dislike logigng will probably not want to log on an issue their opinion
19:03:51 <felixfontein> also everyone, please vote in https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/33 if you haven't done so already
19:04:18 <felixfontein> bcoca: I'm a bit afraid of that
19:04:20 <bcoca> don't get me wrong, i know they are the minority, so i would expect any vvote to not go their way, but i would have people consider that the same paranoid attitude is what pushes a lot of OSS development ... ask stalman ...
19:04:48 <felixfontein> ok, we really have to end the meeting for today. please don't forget the issues :)
19:04:51 <felixfontein> #endmeeting