18:00:07 <felixfontein> #startmeeting Ansible Community Meeting
18:00:07 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Nov 10 18:00:07 2021 UTC.
18:00:07 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
18:00:07 <zodbot> The chair is felixfontein. Information about MeetBot at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Zodbot#Meeting_Functions.
18:00:07 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
18:00:07 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'ansible_community_meeting'
18:00:07 <felixfontein> #topic Agenda https://github.com/ansible/community/issues/539
18:00:07 <felixfontein> acozine andersson007_ baptistemm bcoca briantist cyberpear cybette dericcrago dmsimard felixfontein geerlingguy gundalow gwmngilfen ikhan_ jillr jtanner lmodemal misc nitzmahone resmo samccann tadeboro cidrblock thaumos zbr: ping!
18:00:11 <felixfontein> #info Agenda: https://github.com/ansible/community/issues/539 / Topics: https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics
18:00:18 <felixfontein> #topic Updates
18:00:30 <felixfontein> #info ansible-core 2.12.0 has been released!
18:00:33 <cidrblock[m]> \o/
18:00:39 <andersson007_> o/
18:00:43 <felixfontein> #chair cidrblock[m] andersson007_
18:00:43 <zodbot> Current chairs: andersson007_ cidrblock[m] felixfontein
18:00:56 <samccann> o/
18:01:00 <felixfontein> #chair samccann
18:01:00 <zodbot> Current chairs: andersson007_ cidrblock[m] felixfontein samccann
18:01:01 <cyberpear> o/
18:01:03 <jillr> o/  I may have to multitask a bit, apologies if my responses are laggy
18:01:08 <dmsimard[m]> I almost have my IRC bouncer back up, had power/network issues >_<
18:01:16 <felixfontein> #chair cyberpear jillr dmsimard[m]
18:01:16 <zodbot> Current chairs: andersson007_ cidrblock[m] cyberpear dmsimard[m] felixfontein jillr samccann
18:01:47 <cybette> o/ (in another meeting at the same time, so responses may be delayed)
18:02:05 <felixfontein> dmsimard[m]: I think we can close https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/49 now that it has been suficiently announced
18:02:08 <felixfontein> #chair cybette
18:02:08 <zodbot> Current chairs: andersson007_ cidrblock[m] cyberpear cybette dmsimard[m] felixfontein jillr samccann
18:02:10 * dericcrago waves, but is also in another meeting
18:02:21 <felixfontein> #chair dericcrago
18:02:21 <zodbot> Current chairs: andersson007_ cidrblock[m] cyberpear cybette dericcrago dmsimard[m] felixfontein jillr samccann
18:02:28 <acozine> o/
18:02:49 <briantist> o/
18:02:56 <dmsimard[m]> felixfontein: agreed, though I've been using it as a reminder that we also need to update the roadmaps
18:02:56 <felixfontein> #chair acozine briantist
18:02:56 <zodbot> Current chairs: acozine andersson007_ briantist cidrblock[m] cyberpear cybette dericcrago dmsimard[m] felixfontein jillr samccann
18:03:04 <berkhan> o/
18:03:14 <felixfontein> dmsimard[m]: ok, in that case feel free to keep it open and please close it once you're happy :)
18:03:17 <felixfontein> #chair berkhan
18:03:17 <zodbot> Current chairs: acozine andersson007_ berkhan briantist cidrblock[m] cyberpear cybette dericcrago dmsimard[m] felixfontein jillr samccann
18:03:39 <berkhan> It's been a while since I did not attend in #ansible-community
18:03:53 <felixfontein> berkhan: welcome back :)
18:04:25 <dmsimard> \o/
18:04:30 <berkhan> felixfontein: thank you :)
18:04:31 <resmo> o/
18:04:54 <felixfontein> #chair dmsimard resmo
18:04:54 <zodbot> Current chairs: acozine andersson007_ berkhan briantist cidrblock[m] cyberpear cybette dericcrago dmsimard dmsimard[m] felixfontein jillr resmo samccann
18:05:53 <felixfontein> are there topics anyone would really like to see discussed today?
18:06:27 <felixfontein> #info Ansible 5.0.0 b1 has been released this week; we now have feature freeze until the 5.0.0 release
18:07:32 <felixfontein> any more updates?
18:07:47 <dmsimard> thanks felixfontein, I have one
18:07:59 * acozine just got called into a meeting
18:08:50 <dmsimard> #info An Ansible Working Group meeting has been started under the Operator Framework project community. Meetings will be held monthly, ever third Monday at 5PM UTC. More info: https://github.com/operator-framework/community#ansible-working-group
18:11:00 <felixfontein> #topic Community collections: when to drop support for Ansible 2.9 and ansible-base 2.10?
18:11:03 <felixfontein> #info Discussion: https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/50
18:11:11 <felixfontein> my proposal would be (including c.n for dericcrago):
18:11:12 <felixfontein> PROPOSAL: Drop support for Ansible 2.9 and ansible-base 2.10 in community.general 5.0.0 and community.network 4.0.0, which will be released around the Ansible 6.0.0b1 and ansible-core 2.13.0 releases.
18:11:17 <felixfontein> what do you think of that?
18:12:11 <andersson007_> i like the idea, should be good for CI
18:12:16 <samccann> Do we have anything/anyway to let those users know it's coming? Besides the bullhorn I guess?
18:12:34 <felixfontein> samccann: I'd add it to the changelog as a deprecation
18:12:43 <cyberpear> samccann++ good to pre-announce so folks have time to prepare
18:13:08 <cyberpear> maybe push an update so folks using the to-be-discontinued version will be warned?
18:13:14 <samccann> yeah I'm wondering if something this 'big' would get lost in a changelog?
18:13:27 <berkhan> samccann: that's my guess as well
18:13:34 <dmsimard> samccann: for the EOL of 2.9 and 2.10 specifically, it's been fairly widely announced: https://groups.google.com/g/ansible-announce/c/kegIH5_okmg
18:13:39 <samccann> so for example, imo the changelog deprecation notice should be in Ansible 5 so people know this is going away in Ansilble 6
18:14:04 <andersson007_> felixfontein: it will mean that you'll only stop testing against it and officially announce that it's not supported anymore?
18:14:17 <felixfontein> samccann: it's too late for that, since Ansible 5 is in feature freeze, so we cannot do more deprecations (these require a new minor release according to semver)
18:14:21 <jillr> apologies, my multitask became a full-blown thing I need to devote my attention to. I'm going to have to step out.  :(
18:14:41 <felixfontein> andersson007_: see https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/50#issuecomment-960514789, for c.g and c.n it will be actively dropping support for Ansible 2.9
18:15:01 <remindbot[m]> @cybette:ansible.im cyb-clock chimes every 15 minutes during the community meeting
18:15:02 <andersson007_> felixfontein: ok, thanks
18:15:06 <felixfontein> for 2.10 it's mostly no longer testing, most stuff should still work, but for 2.9 all modules will stop working (if you don't use extended FQCNs)
18:15:49 <samccann> yeah I'll have to think about this a bit more from a docs perspective. I feel there is a gap here on highlighting the Big Things coming in a way that isn't an email/changelog/blogpost etc but doesn't have to happen in this meeting
18:17:24 <andersson007_> felixfontein: thanks for clarifying!
18:18:31 <felixfontein> samccann: I'm not really sure how to actually reach most users
18:19:01 <dericcrago> are we talking about telling the ansible 5 (ansible-core 2.12) users that we're not supporting ansible 2.9 & 2.10 anymore? seems like they're maybe not the target audience of that message?
18:19:22 <felixfontein> on the other hand, 2.9 and 2.10 are EOL, so I'm not sure whether users should expect that these are still supported by the latest versions of collections
18:19:37 <andersson007_> +1
18:19:39 <felixfontein> dericcrago: that's another thing :)
18:19:57 <samccann> I’m thinking of adding a banner to 2.9 docs so anyone using them will see
18:20:44 <berkhan> looks like everybody agrees on the proposal
18:20:56 <andersson007_> i think it's worth having a note about FQCN felixfontein mentioned on the banner
18:21:06 <felixfontein> samccann: users might just look at the latest docs, even if they are using 2.9
18:21:19 <felixfontein> andersson007_: the extended FQCNs is something I would really not advertise
18:21:31 <andersson007_> felixfontein: ah, ok:)
18:21:31 <berkhan> felixfontein: for example, i still look at 2.7 docs :)
18:21:49 <acozine> sorry, I am bowing out for today
18:21:50 <felixfontein> I think everyone in this discussion is not a regular user anyway ;)
18:21:54 <acozine> #unchair acozine
18:21:54 <zodbot> Current chairs: andersson007_ berkhan briantist cidrblock[m] cyberpear cybette dericcrago dmsimard dmsimard[m] felixfontein jillr resmo samccann
18:22:14 <felixfontein> should we vote on that proposal?
18:22:28 <andersson007_> +1 for voting
18:22:55 <felixfontein> VOTE: Drop support for Ansible 2.9 and ansible-base 2.10 in community.general 5.0.0 and community.network 4.0.0, which will be released around the Ansible 6.0.0b1 and ansible-core 2.13.0 releases.
18:23:09 <andersson007_> +1
18:23:14 <berkhan> +1
18:23:16 <felixfontein> +1
18:23:23 <felixfontein> #chair
18:23:23 <zodbot> Current chairs: andersson007_ berkhan briantist cidrblock[m] cyberpear cybette dericcrago dmsimard dmsimard[m] felixfontein jillr resmo samccann
18:23:26 <dmsimard> +1
18:23:28 <briantist> +1
18:23:30 <dmsimard> no objections
18:23:42 <cybette> +1
18:23:45 <samccann> +1
18:24:00 <cyberpear> +1
18:24:10 <dericcrago> +1
18:24:38 <cidrblock[m]> +1
18:25:49 <cidrblock[m]> hey folks, sorry about the short notice, I need to step away
18:26:51 <felixfontein> while we have 10 x +1, 1 x 0, 0 x -1, we only have four steering committee member votes
18:27:07 <felixfontein> I wonder whether last and this week is just bad luck with timing, or whether the new meeting time seriously sucks :)
18:27:36 <jillr> +1
18:27:52 <felixfontein> thanks jillr :)
18:27:59 <jillr> the new time is fine for me, it's this bonkers project deadline that's giving me issues
18:29:10 <gwmngilfen-work> To be fair, I need to write some updates on the research/proposals into being more async :)
18:30:01 <remindbot[m]> @cybette:ansible.im cyb-clock chimes every 15 minutes during the community meeting
18:30:02 <felixfontein> ok, I'll add something to the issue pinging the remaining steering committee members
18:30:13 <felixfontein> since nobody suggested another topic:
18:30:14 <felixfontein> #topic Repository instead of Changes impacting collection contributors & maintainers Issue
18:30:17 <felixfontein> #info Discussion: https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/51
18:30:50 <andersson007_> maybe skip it for today?
18:31:32 <felixfontein> andersson007_: do you mean this topic, or the whole meeting?
18:31:41 <andersson007_> :) this topic
18:32:39 <felixfontein> fine for me
18:32:41 <felixfontein> #topic Open Floor
18:33:00 <felixfontein> does anyone have something to discuss?
18:34:37 <gwmngilfen-work> Only that I need to make this more async so I can discuss the async stuff :)
18:34:55 <felixfontein> :)
18:40:29 <dmsimard> nothing for me, also half distracted with concurrent meeting
18:40:30 <resmo> I notices digitalocean modules has been separated into a collections
18:41:04 <felixfontein> resmo: I think that happened around a year ago :)
18:41:16 <dmsimard> resmo: it's been a while as far as I know, there's #ansible-digitalocean on libera.chat where the maintainers hang out
18:41:35 <resmo> okay, then...
18:41:36 <resmo> ;)
18:42:08 <dmsimard> resmo: it's all right, did you have questions about it ?
18:42:50 <felixfontein> actually the 1.0.0 release was on August 17, 2020 :)
18:42:56 <resmo> I just wondered, I got a bunch of release mails from github about digital ocean collection
18:43:50 <felixfontein> most releases were only tagged now, but the tags (and galaxy artifacts) have already been there for some time
18:44:07 <resmo> anyways
18:44:48 <resmo> all fine
18:45:01 <remindbot[m]> @cybette:ansible.im cyb-clock chimes every 15 minutes during the community meeting
18:45:35 <felixfontein> btw, asking for collection versions and in particular for the `ansible-galaxy collection list foo.bar` output in the issue template is a Really Good Thing
18:46:27 <felixfontein> it usually gives a quick hint that someone once manually installed a version and that version is now hiding the latest version from the Ansible package
18:46:34 <felixfontein> (example: https://github.com/ansible-collections/community.general/issues/3690)
18:47:42 <berkhan> I actually one question regarding github, gitlab or anything similar modules. Should we remove them from community.general?
18:48:06 <felixfontein> berkhan: why?
18:48:23 <felixfontein> just removing modules for no reason is not a good idea :)
18:48:29 <andersson007_> :)
18:49:19 <berkhan> felixfontein: I thought that community.general is holding _too much_ modules at first
18:49:36 <berkhan> when I initially saw them I was thinking maybe a separte colection would not hurt
18:49:44 <felixfontein> berkhan: so are you suggesting to move them somewhere else, or to just deprecate and remove them (without replacement)?
18:50:08 <berkhan> just moving them. Did I say remove *-*
18:50:16 <felixfontein> moving them to a separate collection would be great if there would be enough active maintainers who would maintain that collection
18:50:35 <felixfontein> berkhan: you did :) that's why I asked ;)
18:50:54 <andersson007_> yeah, otherwise it can lead to unmaintained dead collections
18:51:34 <berkhan> sorry for misspelling
18:52:13 <felixfontein> I really like the idea of moving more stuff out of community.general, but I'm mostly hesitant because of maintenance issues
18:52:27 <berkhan> because I think community.general as always a place to start in Ansible. More like contrib version of ansible.builtin
18:52:35 <felixfontein> c.g contains a lot of modules, where quite many of them are not really maintained
18:53:15 <felixfontein> and while they are in c.g, there are at least some active community members which can help others to get changes into these modules
18:53:46 <berkhan> felixfontein: that is correct. I need to find person to maintain. Maybe for the next meeting topic we can proposal to _move_ modules before big community.general release?
18:53:47 <felixfontein> but once they end up in their own collection and the people initially wanting to maintain it stop interest, no longer have time, ..., it's suddenly a collection which is basically unmaintained
18:54:24 <felixfontein> we sure can do that (the next such release would be c.g 5.0.0 in ~6 months)
18:54:31 <andersson007_> having them in c.g. imo prevents things to get screwed up / abandoned entirely:)
18:54:33 <felixfontein> (we already removed quite some material for 2.0.0)
18:54:52 <berkhan> felixfontein: really don't think that they are anyway getting maintained after a point such as now
18:55:38 <felixfontein> berkhan: there are regularly new PRs for the gitlab modules, and less frequently for the github modules
18:55:41 <andersson007_> i can recall patches people submitted to gitlab stuff this year
18:55:56 <berkhan> andersson007_: didn't know that :-D
18:56:00 <andersson007_> and they got merged:)
18:56:17 <andersson007_> they can't do that in dead collections:)
18:56:22 <berkhan> that's is enough to cancel the proposal :-D
18:56:50 <felixfontein> https://github.com/ansible-collections/community.general/commits/main/plugins/modules/source_control/gitlab
18:57:18 <felixfontein> the github modules on the other hand are less active: https://github.com/ansible-collections/community.general/commits/main/plugins/modules/source_control/github
18:57:50 <andersson007_> stable regularity
18:58:05 <andersson007_> in gitlab related stuff
18:58:23 <felixfontein> in the github folder there are quite many 'regular maintenance' commits, and few github-specific commits
18:58:29 <andersson007_> there's a working group also IIRC
18:58:37 <andersson007_> oh, no, team
18:58:41 <andersson007_> in botmeta.yml
18:58:42 <berkhan> So, GitLab can go into separate collection easily since we have a few maintainers
18:59:05 <felixfontein> berkhan: there is a list of maintainers, but they are very inactive
19:01:12 <felixfontein> ok, let's close the meeting, one hour is over :)
19:01:17 <felixfontein> feel free to continue discussing here!
19:01:19 <felixfontein> #endmeeting