18:00:09 #startmeeting Ansible Community Meeting 18:00:09 Meeting started Wed Jan 12 18:00:09 2022 UTC. 18:00:09 This meeting is logged and archived in a public location. 18:00:09 The chair is felixfontein. Information about MeetBot at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Zodbot#Meeting_Functions. 18:00:09 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 18:00:09 The meeting name has been set to 'ansible_community_meeting' 18:00:09 #topic Agenda https://github.com/ansible/community/issues/539 18:00:09 acozine andersson007_ baptistemm bcoca briantist cyberpear cybette dericcrago dmsimard felixfontein geerlingguy gundalow gwmngilfen ikhan_ jillr jtanner lmodemal misc nitzmahone resmo samccann tadeboro cidrblock thaumos zbr: ping! 18:00:13 #info Agenda: https://github.com/ansible/community/issues/539 / Topics: https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics 18:00:16 #topic Updates 18:00:32 o/ 18:00:33 o/ (partly here as am sitting with two kids alone today) 18:00:34 o/ 18:00:38 o/ 18:00:45 #chair cybette andersson007_ acozine jillr 18:00:45 Current chairs: acozine andersson007_ cybette felixfontein jillr 18:02:36 hmm, looks like a huge attendance today :) 18:03:07 :) successfully async maybe! 18:03:08 a small but doughty band 18:03:27 jillr: indeed! 18:04:00 we could announce https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/51#issuecomment-1010982671 today and move the issue to Resolved on the board https://github.com/orgs/ansible-community/projects/2/views/5 18:04:00 o/ 18:04:03 #info don't forget to vote on the open votes: https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3Aactive-vote 18:04:16 andersson007_: sounds good 18:04:18 #chair dmsimard 18:04:18 Current chairs: acozine andersson007_ cybette dmsimard felixfontein jillr 18:04:29 #info Ansible 5.2.0 will be released sometime shortly after the meeting 18:04:32 #info deadline for Bullhorn 42 content is tomorrow, as we're testing how feasible it is to have a weekly release cadence. Please share your news with newsbot in ansible-social channel/room by 20:00 UTC on 2022-01-13! 18:05:28 #info https://github.com/ansible-community/github-docs-build contains some GHA actions and shared workflows for collection docs builds 18:06:51 o/ 18:06:58 #chair samccann 18:06:58 Current chairs: acozine andersson007_ cybette dmsimard felixfontein jillr samccann 18:07:19 #info There will be many talks about Ansible at the upcoming devconf and FOSDEM conferences, find them via https://devconfcz2022.sched.com/?searchstring=ansible and https://fosdem.org/2022/search/?q=ansible 18:08:34 great one, thanks dmsimard ! 18:09:18 no more updates from me 18:10:37 #info The parameter and return value tables on docs.ansible.com's devel docs are now responsive 18:10:42 almost forgot that one :) 18:10:49 \o/ 18:11:09 if you notice anything odd, please tell us :) 18:11:28 nice one! 18:11:33 about today: is there a topic someone wants to discuss? 18:11:34 #info Please suggest possible names for the Changes Impacting Contributors repository in the topic https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/51. Deadline is Sunday, 12 Jan 2022. 18:12:04 #undo 18:12:04 Removing item from minutes: INFO by andersson007_ at 18:11:34 : Please suggest possible names for the Changes Impacting Contributors repository in the topic https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/51. Deadline is Sunday, 12 Jan 2022. 18:12:12 andersson007_: that date is today, but today's not Sunday :) 18:12:26 ah, sorry:) 18:12:32 maybe `StuffYouShouldKnow` or `SYSK` for short? 18:12:33 andersson007_: sunday 12 Jan? 18:12:46 #info Please suggest possible names for the Changes Impacting Contributors repository in the topic https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/51. Deadline is Sunday, 16 Jan 2022. 18:12:58 acozine: nice one :) 18:13:01 felixfontein: thanks:) 18:13:32 how about something like collection-contributor-news ? 18:13:40 the name which will be thumbed up most will win:) 18:13:52 or if it is in gh.com/ansible-collections, without that prefix :) 18:14:26 maybe changes-impacting-collections? 18:14:49 changes-impacting-contributors? 18:15:02 @cybette:ansible.im cyb-clock chimes every 15 minutes during the community meeting 18:15:32 i think it's for maintainers mostly:) 18:15:40 so changes-impacting-maintainers? 18:15:53 true 18:16:20 sorry, the word nerd in me needs to yell "impact is a noun, not a verb" 18:16:28 okay, I feel better now, carry on 18:16:39 lol 18:16:53 impactful-changes? 18:16:53 isn't it both a verb and a noun? 18:17:00 i think the changes impact maintainers and contributors in collections:) 18:17:15 felixfontein: it is now . . . language being an ever-evolving thing 18:17:18 hmm, with english as my second language I also didn't know that impact couldn't be used as a verb 18:17:19 according to https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/impact it is both 18:17:23 especially English 18:17:54 yes, and I withdraw my comment 18:17:58 acozine: ah, I didn't knew that. but yeah, that's a common feature of languages :) 18:18:07 no worries :p 18:20:02 since nobody seems to have a topic to discuss, maybe we can take a look at https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/52: "I'd like to contribute ansible-trace under ansible-collections" 18:20:26 how should we proceed with this? 18:21:16 * dmsimard reads 18:21:29 * acozine reads the issue 18:21:45 felixfontein: would you like to announce announce https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/51#issuecomment-1010982671 ? 18:22:10 andersson007_: will do, resp. try not to forget :) 18:22:32 👍 18:22:51 It seems the author has already made a collection available on galaxy: https://galaxy.ansible.com/mhansen/ansible_trace -- now, is it that he wants to move the repository under ansible-collections instead of https://github.com/mhansen/ansible-trace ? 18:22:53 re: `ansible-trace` - it does seem like a useful tool 18:22:56 #topic How to proceed with "I'd like to contribute ansible-trace under ansible-collections" 18:23:02 #info https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/52 18:23:28 (I only noticed now that the number of this issue is one next to the other issue we've been talking about today :) ) 18:25:37 I mean, we don't really gatekeep repositories from being under ansible-collections or ansible-community so I don't have an objection to move the repository there and have him set as maintainer if that is the question 18:25:43 I gather the contributor's goal for having it under the org is visibility/adoption, are there other ways we could support them in that? does it have to be in the GH org? 18:26:22 * gundalow waves 18:26:29 I mainly wonder if it contributes to a precedent that collections must be in our GH org to have up-take 18:26:46 or maybe a perception, rather than a precedent 18:26:55 #chair gundalow 18:26:55 Current chairs: acozine andersson007_ cybette dmsimard felixfontein gundalow jillr samccann 18:27:17 jillr: the precedent (I think) would be that collections under the community namespace (i.e community.general) are typically in the ansible-collections github org 18:27:31 Having collections under gh/ansible* means I can pay for it's CI (if need be), as well as being able to get others to step in as maintainers if someone isn't able to maintain anymore 18:27:47 dmsimard: oh did I miss a comment in the issue about having it move namespaces? 18:28:00 like to community.ansible-trace? 18:28:03 it also incurs a social responsibility for the org owners to fix CVEs in the repo 18:28:06 what about adding the plugin to an existing collection? could we gain a new maintainer that way? 18:28:10 jillr: I don't think but I am hand-wavey assuming here 18:28:30 acozine: I was thinking that too, but I'm not sure where that would go except c.g 18:29:27 acozine: how about community.general?:) felixfontein ? 18:29:33 the requestor pointed out a handful of similar plugins in c.g, maybe those could be moved out to this new collection and this person could be the maintainer? 18:29:36 yeah, if it's really just one self-contained callback plugin, I suppose it /could/ go in c.g 18:29:37 jillr: yeah, I'm not sure either, but maybe we could carve out a new collection with some existing plugins from c.g and add this one in? 18:30:02 @cybette:ansible.im cyb-clock chimes every 15 minutes during the community meeting 18:30:18 samccann: I guess it depends how active that person then is as a maintainer... if they stop doing something after some months, it's no good 18:30:29 (in particular if we move other plugins there) 18:30:35 something like `community.stats` or `community.performance` or something? 18:30:41 i would avoid splitting c.g. more. With small collections the situation with mainainers could get even worse 18:31:49 I would still like to split it up, but yeah, the maintainer problem is a big problem indeed 18:31:56 there's currently a bunch of such (abandoned) collections. 18:31:59 Not puting anything else in c.general 18:32:08 (my IRC connection seems somewhat dead, that's why I switched to matrix) 18:32:31 (or extremely laggy... not clear to me what's the problem, I guess it's the IRC server I'm connected to) 18:32:47 * jillr has to multitask a bit, but is still here - just might be slow 18:32:54 gundalow: there's been new additions to c.g over time, I don't think we've formalized whether we should stop that 18:33:13 acozine: I like your suggestion of `community.performance` (or debug or similar). Could be nice to have a place for other support scripts. I know in previous like jtanner had various new scripts 18:33:30 Welcome to the Dark Side (matrix) Felix Fontein ... we have cookies! 18:33:42 dmsimard: sure, I'm been a little flippent. I wouldn't want to see any net-new useful stuff being added to community.general 18:33:48 I would like to think that a narrowly defined small collection would be easier to recruit maintainers for 18:33:49 dmsimard: we had a discussion on that, but never finished it... we stopped roughly a year ago because we had more pressing issues, and never came backt o it 18:33:54 i guess people loose interest to contribute to small collections pretty fast, i.e. where no much activity 18:34:14 i know several examples 18:34:31 new mainainers have also lost interest pretty fast 18:35:24 financial quarterly result jargon tends to include something along the lines of "past performance is not an indicator of future performance" but yeah... :P 18:35:49 then maybe c.g is a good home for this? 18:35:50 ah, that's too bad 18:36:49 feels like we either accept possibly unmaintained collections over time, or we end up with c.g being too big and facing the same problem ansible/ansible had before we moved modules out 18:36:49 yeah, in c.g. stuff will be maintained 18:37:02 I'm -1 to adding it to c.general 18:37:23 gundalow: I'm speaking generally 18:37:39 to be accepted in c.g it would need tests; besides that I don't mind it being added 18:37:42 what does it take to 'maintain' a small collection? is it difficult? 18:37:48 I think either it's own collection or we come up with something like community.{performance_tools,debug_tools} 18:37:58 gundalow: because of this specific plugin, or adding generally to c.g? 18:38:01 I remember for a while we had a goal of "retire c.g and get everything in themed collections" 18:38:06 (I think we really have to reboot that c.g discussion...) 18:38:09 or is it just people don't come back after the initial joy of creating it when it's no longer active? 18:38:13 are we now resigned to keeping c.g forever? 18:38:13 samccann: Once the collection is setup not much is needed to maintain it 18:38:47 I feel less strongly about c.g and more interested in how can we help community feel like their collections are a valuable part of the ecosystem regardless of namespace/github org 18:40:43 Boring = good 18:40:43 samccann: it is boring:) 18:40:43 maintaining a small collection is just boring:) that's life 18:40:43 not only for me 18:40:43 as we can see 18:40:43 acozine: we talked a lot about that, until when we stopped talking about it without coming to a conclusion :) 18:40:43 heh, good to know my memory isn't going completely 18:40:45 usually maintaining a small collection is more work per plugin than maintaining a larger collection 18:40:48 Thoughts on creating a new `community.{performance_tools,debug_tools}` collection for this and other useful debug scripts? 18:40:51 y 18:40:58 oh, looks lke IRC is back :) 18:41:09 gundalow: main thought is: who is going to maintain it? 18:41:30 (i like how this not-compulsory-to-attend-with-async-vote meeting is going) 18:42:02 andersson007_: me too! 18:42:11 and another question: will this maintainer be permanent / persistent long enough 18:42:25 Felix Fontein: :) 18:44:38 I'm hearing both "small collections get boring because there's not much maintenance to be done" and also "we can't have small collections because nobody will maintain them" . . . which almost feels like a contradiction - is the problem summed up as "small collections are boring, so maintainers tend to drift away, and then when a problem comes along, nobody's around to fix it"? 18:45:01 @cybette:ansible.im cyb-clock chimes every 15 minutes during the community meeting 18:45:49 experience says that there's a lot of energy / enthusiasm from original maintainers at the beginning but then a feeling that you alone appears 18:46:05 jillr: i like the way you expressed that - maybe there are other mechanisms for raising the profile of collections . . . maybe we could have a Bullhorn section for `Collection Spotlight` and highlight a collection each month? 18:46:23 acozine: I think that's a good way to sum it up 18:46:24 and it doesn't feel good - the feeling of being alone:) 18:47:05 acozine: yeah, and generally help people understand that we're still here to help them with how to be a maintainer and part of the community 18:47:08 +1 18:47:08 in other words, stick to our "nothing more goes into c.g" promise, but give collection maintainers visibility for smaller collections? 18:47:14 they aren't alone, even if they manage their own repo 18:47:51 acozine: I don't know about that being a promise, we haven't settled on that 18:48:18 because the thing this person said was "I think this would be useful to others and I'd like to give back to the community" . . . and really all collections are available to the community 18:48:23 but maybe it doesn't feel that way 18:48:50 dmsimard: fair enough 18:49:20 small collections usually make it harder getting your stuff reviewed 18:49:27 +1000 18:49:28 though also for larger ones it's not that simple 18:49:45 it might be worth getting back to the author in the issue to clarify his expectations and how we might be able to help give it visibility if need be 18:49:59 i'd been thinking of the review problem just before FelixFontein[m] mentioned it 18:50:34 dmsimard: +1 18:51:03 does anyone wants to volunteer for what dmsimard mentioned? :) 18:51:29 ok, I'll switch to another topic in 1 min 18:51:49 (and very soon after that to open floor) 18:51:49 the other option - they create the collection on galaxy, and we recommend the Bullhorn to get the word out. so no promises that this one-plugin collection ever becomes part of Ansible package unless it's getting a lot of attention on Galaxy? 18:52:24 FelixFontein[m]: we should not forget to announce the Changes impacting repo results:) 18:52:46 felixfontein: I'll reply in the issue 18:52:47 samccann: I like that. it would be good to allow to highlight other collections in a better way than just including them in the Ansible package (which is always growing and growing...) 18:52:59 andersson007_: that's what I want to switch to ;) 18:53:04 dmsimard: cool, thanks :) 18:53:05 oh, since FelixFontein[m] appeared the auto complete suggests it first... 18:53:11 felixfontein: 18:53:12 #topic Voting result on: Repository instead of Changes impacting collection contributors & maintainers Issue 18:53:15 #info https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/51#issuecomment-1010982671 18:53:18 The vote on this issue concluded, the result is that we want a new repository for this and want to close the issue (choice Q1a), and we want to use issues in this new repository (choice Q2a) 18:53:22 What's next is to decide how this repository should be named (and whether it should be in gh/ansible-community or gh/ansible-collections). Please post your ideas in https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/51 until Sunday (2022/01/15)! 18:53:36 andersson007_: no problem ;) right now my matrix is lagging behind IRC, so I switched back ;) 18:54:06 * gundalow has to drop. Thanks all 18:54:14 thanks gundalow! have a great evening! 18:54:42 #topic open floor 18:54:44 and last but not least ;-) 18:55:16 im impacting this conversation 18:55:25 MT 18:55:51 heh 18:57:00 :) 18:57:34 `impacting` always makes me remember getting my wisdom teeth pulled - they were "impacted" (stuck under my jawbone because there was no space for them next to my other teeth) 18:57:45 it's not a happy recollection 18:58:22 I don't miss my wisdom teeths :) 18:58:40 :) 18:58:44 acozine: I had impacted wisdom teeth as well! had all 4 removed together.... now no more wisdom :P 18:58:53 heh 18:59:25 I lost them in pairs of two, I didn't want to be unable to eat solid stuf :) 18:59:44 my wisdom teeth have grown enough to cause pain, but not enough for them to be removed 19:00:32 #endmeeting