18:00:30 <felixfontein> #startmeeting Ansible Community Meeting
18:00:30 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Mar  9 18:00:30 2022 UTC.
18:00:30 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
18:00:30 <zodbot> The chair is felixfontein. Information about MeetBot at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Zodbot#Meeting_Functions.
18:00:30 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
18:00:30 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'ansible_community_meeting'
18:00:30 <felixfontein> #topic Agenda https://github.com/ansible/community/issues/645
18:00:31 <felixfontein> acozine andersson007_ baptistemm bcoca briantist cyberpear cybette dericcrago dmsimard felixfontein geerlingguy gundalow gwmngilfen ikhan_ jillr jtanner lmodemal misc nitzmahone resmo samccann tadeboro cidrblock thaumos zbr: ping!
18:00:34 <felixfontein> #info Agenda: https://github.com/ansible/community/issues/645 / Topics: https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics
18:00:37 <felixfontein> #topic Updates
18:00:43 <andersson007_> o/
18:00:49 <jillr> o/
18:00:50 <briantist> o/
18:00:53 <acozine> o/
18:00:59 <briantist> (very distracted as usual these days)
18:00:59 <felixfontein> #chair andersson007_ jillr briantist acozine
18:00:59 <zodbot> Current chairs: acozine andersson007_ briantist felixfontein jillr
18:01:00 <cybette> o/
18:01:05 <felixfontein> #chair cybette
18:01:05 <zodbot> Current chairs: acozine andersson007_ briantist cybette felixfontein jillr
18:01:39 <gundalow> Hey
18:02:05 <samccann> o/
18:02:12 <felixfontein> #chair gundalow samccann
18:02:12 <zodbot> Current chairs: acozine andersson007_ briantist cybette felixfontein gundalow jillr samccann
18:02:20 <cyberpear> o/
18:02:27 <felixfontein> #chair cyberpear
18:02:27 <zodbot> Current chairs: acozine andersson007_ briantist cyberpear cybette felixfontein gundalow jillr samccann
18:04:56 <dmsimard> o/ sorry I'm late
18:05:16 <felixfontein> #chair dmsimard
18:05:16 <zodbot> Current chairs: acozine andersson007_ briantist cyberpear cybette dmsimard felixfontein gundalow jillr samccann
18:05:37 <felixfontein> we currently have the following active votes:
18:05:47 <felixfontein> #info https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/74 To include community.sap and nautobot collections in the Ansible package
18:05:55 <felixfontein> #info https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/71 Important updates for Ansible Community Steering Committee guidelines
18:06:04 <felixfontein> #info https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/76 Which files to remove from the Ansible 6 installation
18:06:14 <felixfontein> (and another one I will have opened in ~5 minutes)
18:06:24 <cybette> #info The next Ansible Contributor Summit will be on April 12, 2022. Check out the details in the hackmd, add your names to attendees if you plan to attend, suggest topics etc. https://hackmd.io/@ansible-community/contrib-summit-202204/
18:06:50 <acozine> I did some research related to the Steering Committee guidelines thing
18:07:06 <briantist> wow feels like contributor summit came up quickly
18:07:34 <acozine> wow, April 12, that is soon
18:08:58 <felixfontein> #info https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/77 Collections included in Ansible must not use files outside of meta/, plugins/, roles/ and playbooks/
18:09:26 <felixfontein> April 12 also happens the release date for the first Ansible 6 alpha version :)
18:09:38 <felixfontein> please check out the active votes and vote on them!
18:09:39 <dmsimard> yes, I may or may not do it live
18:09:56 <acozine> dmsimard: that's brave of you
18:10:11 <dmsimard> acozine: I'm not worried at all :p
18:10:23 <acozine> heh, of course not!
18:10:25 <felixfontein> the alphas will be interesting since there are some larger changes in the way that Ansible 6 installs
18:10:28 <dmsimard> re: 76 & 77, I had for action to check with the core team whether we could imagine a "build_include" configuration (instead of build_ignore) to help collections include just the essential
18:11:17 <felixfontein> dmsimard: until legal allows to do that, I guess most collections cannot use that even if it would be available
18:12:21 <felixfontein> (resp if they use it, they have to include everything that's also in git)
18:12:52 <felixfontein> ok, does anyone have some specific topics in mind to discuss today?
18:12:57 <dmsimard> In their opinion, it would become complicated quickly and something more like a MANIFEST.in file so the odds of it happening are low
18:13:04 <jillr> dmsimard: I put an item on the agenda for a call we have tomorrow to talk about these (and #65)
18:13:11 <jillr> is that still needed?
18:13:24 * dmsimard looks
18:13:47 <jillr> I meant to tag you on that agenda but now I see I didn't (I'm going to blame google docs for that failure)
18:13:48 <andersson007_> acozine: when there's a chance, could you please elaborate on the steering committee research please. not necessarily now but we shouldn't forget about it:)
18:14:09 <dmsimard> jillr: we can still talk about it but I don't expect them to change their mind -- putting it out there so they know about the struggle is probably not a waste of time
18:14:14 <jillr> +1
18:14:21 <acozine> andersson007_: yes, whenever we're ready for the topic, I will post links and thoughts
18:14:39 <andersson007_> acozine: cool, thanks!
18:15:00 <remindbot[m]> @cybette:ansible.im cyb-clock chimes every 15 minutes during the community meeting
18:15:02 <felixfontein> https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/71 is a rather important vote for the steering committee btw
18:16:01 <felixfontein> since there's no other suggestion, let's talk about the research now
18:16:08 <acozine> ah, thanks for that link felixfontein - I'd been looking at the PR, but not at the topic/issue
18:16:15 <felixfontein> #topic Research related to Steering Committee guidelines
18:16:36 <felixfontein> #info Related vote: https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/71 / related PR: https://github.com/ansible/community-docs/pull/49
18:17:17 <acozine> The closest thing I was able to find to our current approach was https://github.com/kubernetes/community/blob/master/governance.md - they have a Steering Committee like we do
18:17:54 <acozine> I did not find any more details on what their steering committee does or how it's governed, if anyone knows more, that would be useful
18:18:18 <acozine> other somewhat relevant examples include postgres (see https://postgresql.fund/blog/is-it-time-to-modernize-postgresql-core/)
18:18:32 <acozine> fedora (see https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/orgchart/)
18:18:57 <acozine> then I found some alternative approaches
18:19:21 <acozine> for example OpenJS has a sort of inter-corporate governance model: https://openjsf.org/about/governance/
18:19:53 <acozine> some orgs like Apache are Foundations: https://apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#structure
18:20:46 <acozine> ah, here's more on postgres - again I was not really able to find governing documents, this was the closest I found: https://www.postgresql.org/about/policies/
18:21:52 <acozine> beyond those, I found a lot of more general "What kind of governance is right for your project" posts, mostly aimed at projects that are just getting traction
18:21:59 <felixfontein> (I'm wondering a bit whether outsiders also find it hard to find such information on us)
18:22:20 <acozine> I expect they do, yes
18:23:05 <andersson007_> samccann: is moving community docs to docs.ansible.com
18:23:39 <andersson007_> one by one
18:23:44 <acozine> General "project governance overviews" include https://www.redhat.com/en/resources/guide-to-open-source-project-governance-models-overview and https://opensource.com/article/20/5/open-source-governance and interestingly https://developer.ibm.com/articles/open-governance-community/
18:24:53 <cybette> <acozine> "The closest thing I was able..." <- more details about kubernetes steering committee can be found in this repo https://github.com/kubernetes/steering
18:25:16 <cybette> (separate repo, and not linked from your previous link)
18:25:17 <acozine> Carol Chen: oh, well spotted!
18:26:28 <felixfontein> it looks like a good idea to not elect the whole committee at the same time
18:27:05 <felixfontein> (on the other hand we don't really have elections yet, so it's not really relevant - for now)
18:27:08 <andersson007_> acozine: cybette thanks for the links! I'll scrutinize the pages ASAP
18:27:13 <acozine> I was hoping to find answers to more immediate questions like "do other projects give someone veto power?" and "how do other projects define a quorum?"
18:27:37 <jillr> hm, we might have to directly ask some of them
18:27:41 <felixfontein> https://github.com/kubernetes/steering/blob/main/charter.md#quorum
18:27:42 <andersson007_> we dropped the veto idea for a while
18:28:08 <andersson007_> as there's no need for that
18:28:43 <cyberpear> dropping veto is good. I gave it a +1 in the ticket as-is now
18:29:19 <felixfontein> if we want something like a veto, or some other mechanism, we should probably discuss it half to death first before voting on it ;)
18:30:00 <remindbot[m]> @cybette:ansible.im cyb-clock chimes every 15 minutes during the community meeting
18:30:19 <acozine> yeah, I think the current PR looks good now, but it would be good to have resources / basis for comparison
18:30:19 <andersson007_> kubernetes quorum approach is not fully relevant as we don't vote at meetings
18:30:23 <felixfontein> in any case, the kubernetes steering committee seems to operate synchronously,
18:31:42 <felixfontein> andersson007_: their quorum rules could be adjusted to async by simply substituting the total number of SC members as the number of attendees
18:32:35 <felixfontein> they seem to require 2/3 of the members, while we only require 1/2 of the members to participate in the vote
18:32:39 <felixfontein> (if I understand it correctly)
18:34:06 <andersson007_> felixfontein: yep
18:34:20 <andersson007_> (in our case)
18:35:16 <felixfontein> I'm afraid that if we raise that number for our rules, we could be deadlocking ourselves
18:36:32 <andersson007_> yep, as proposed looks reasonable to me:)
18:36:40 <andersson007_> in the PR:)
18:37:38 <andersson007_> though i hope there will be more than 1/2 of SC discussing/voting
18:37:45 <andersson007_> in topics
18:37:49 <andersson007_> regularly
18:38:39 <felixfontein> me too
18:39:22 <acozine> that might be a function of velocity - there's a limit to the number of things I can do in the community per week
18:39:45 <acozine> which is another way of saying we've had a lot going on recently
18:39:57 <acozine> that's a good thing, but it also means folks might fall behind a bit
18:40:36 <acozine> at least, that's my current excuse
18:41:38 <acozine> that said, I will put a comment on that PR this week, I promise
18:42:04 <jillr> I'm in a similar boat.  there hasn't been a meeting in months that I wasn't multitasking at least one other thing sometimes several, to be entirely honest
18:42:47 <jillr> and the cloud community is expressing dissatisfaction with our responsiveness there as well  :(
18:42:59 <felixfontein> since we're supposed to work mostly async, it shouldn't be a problem...
18:43:04 <andersson007_> acozine jillr yep, that's understandable and is fine not to vote on every topic for a member, so 6-7 folks as quorum should be (imo) fine. If there are some concerns or 50x50, we can ping more folks directly
18:43:16 <felixfontein> jillr: do you mean the discussion in #ansible-aws earlier today?
18:43:21 <jillr> in theory, but I have negative amounts of time for anything.  :)
18:43:28 <jillr> felixfontein: there have also been others
18:44:30 <felixfontein> jillr: more active maintainers would be helpful in a lot of places...
18:44:37 <jillr> topic at hand, maybe for us requiring more than 50% participation won't work now, if we want to also remain compassionate of people's work loads?
18:44:38 <felixfontein> but these unfortuately don't grow on trees :)
18:45:00 <felixfontein> yes, definitely
18:45:01 <remindbot[m]> @cybette:ansible.im cyb-clock chimes every 15 minutes during the community meeting
18:45:16 <felixfontein> hmm, that word is missing some letters
18:45:50 <acozine> heh, typos are everywhere!
18:46:02 <felixfontein> indeed
18:46:33 <felixfontein> anyway, acozine, thanks a lot for your research!
18:46:55 <acozine> yw, I hope it helps us over time
18:46:55 <andersson007_> acozine: thanks!
18:47:14 <cybette> thanks acozine !
18:47:29 <andersson007_> governance is hard:)
18:49:10 <felixfontein> I'll info acozine's links so we will find them in the meeting minutes :)
18:49:13 <felixfontein> #info Kubernetes steering committee: https://github.com/kubernetes/community/blob/master/governance.md https://github.com/kubernetes/steering
18:49:16 <felixfontein> #info Postgres: https://postgresql.fund/blog/is-it-time-to-modernize-postgresql-core/ https://www.postgresql.org/about/policies/
18:49:19 <felixfontein> #info Fedora: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/orgchart/
18:49:21 <felixfontein> #info OpenJS has a sort of inter-corporate governance model: https://openjsf.org/about/governance/
18:49:24 <felixfontein> #info some orgs like Apache are Foundations: https://apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#structure
18:49:27 <felixfontein> #info General "project governance overviews" include https://www.redhat.com/en/resources/guide-to-open-source-project-governance-models-overview and https://opensource.com/article/20/5/open-source-governance and interestingly https://developer.ibm.com/articles/open-governance-community/
18:49:33 <felixfontein> #info (researched by @acozine)
18:49:42 <andersson007_> felixfontein: sounds great, thanks!
18:50:21 <felixfontein> I hope that increases the chances that we will find this if we need it again...
18:50:30 <andersson007_> yep
18:51:47 <acozine> time for an open floor? or are we trying to squeeze in another topic?
18:51:58 <felixfontein> is there another topic someone wants to discuss? :)
18:52:02 <felixfontein> so far nobody suggested one
18:52:06 <felixfontein> (or I missed it)
18:52:13 <felixfontein> #topic open floor
18:52:16 <felixfontein> let's go to open floor :)
18:53:48 <acozine> this isn't a topic, exactly, but I've noticed more general chatting going on lately in various channels, which is nice
18:54:03 <felixfontein> that's definitely true!
18:54:17 <acozine> maybe some of the folks who are engaging will be future Steering Committee recruits!
18:55:14 <cybette> great observation and hopeful thoughts indeed!
18:55:36 <andersson007_> it reminds me about the need for a new member
18:55:58 <andersson007_> not immediate but anyway
18:56:41 <felixfontein> we also need a new chairperson, though we should wait until https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/71 is resolved first I think
18:56:59 <acozine> heh, yep, one step at a time
18:57:25 <andersson007_> i asked Ompragash a couple of days ago to help with arranging a chairperson's election
18:59:47 <andersson007_> will see:)
19:00:45 <felixfontein> yep :)
19:00:47 <felixfontein> #endmeeting