18:02:25 <gundalow> #startmeeting Ansible Community Meeting
18:02:25 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Apr 20 18:02:25 2022 UTC.
18:02:25 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
18:02:25 <zodbot> The chair is gundalow. Information about MeetBot at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Zodbot#Meeting_Functions.
18:02:25 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
18:02:25 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'ansible_community_meeting'
18:02:39 <briantist> o/
18:02:44 <acozine> o/
18:02:44 <gundalow> #topic Agenda https://github.com/ansible/community/issues/645
18:02:45 * acozine is eating lunch, so typing may be delayed
18:03:32 <gundalow> acozine andersson007_ baptistemm bcoca briantist cyberpear cybette dmsimard felixfontein geerlingguy gundalow gwmngilfen ikhan_ jillr jtanner lmodemal misc nitzmahone resmo samccann tadeboro cidrblock thaumos zbr: ping!
18:03:39 <cyberpear> o/
18:03:55 <cybette> o/
18:04:01 <acozine> o/ again
18:05:30 <gundalow> #chair acozine briantist cyberpear Carol Chen
18:05:30 <zodbot> Current chairs: Carol Chen acozine briantist cyberpear gundalow
18:06:10 <dmsimard> also here but sidetracked o/
18:06:24 <gundalow> #chair dmsimard
18:06:24 <zodbot> Current chairs: Carol Chen acozine briantist cyberpear dmsimard gundalow
18:06:25 <gundalow> #topic Updates
18:06:32 <gundalow> Anyone got any updates?
18:06:46 <cybette> next week's meeting topic is "List any backwards incompatible collection releases that beta1 should try to accommodate." via https://docs.ansible.com/ansible/devel/roadmap/COLLECTIONS_6.html
18:06:56 <cybette> is there any info / pre-work needed from collection maintainers? that maybe can be shared in bullhorn or news-for-maintainers repo?
18:08:20 <gundalow> Good call, not aware of anything
18:08:41 <dmsimard> I recall some collection deps that need to be taken care of
18:09:02 <cybette> ok, I have the date listed in the bullhorn so people are at least aware
18:09:30 <dmsimard> though details are foggy, there was something along the lines of community.kubevirt (that was a candidate for removal, anyway) depending on an old version of community.k8s (that was also a candidate for removal in favor of kubernetes.core)
18:10:02 <dmsimard> I don't believe this has been taken care of yet, pending the approval of the process for the collection removal
18:10:08 <dmsimard> which felix had a PR for /me looks
18:10:24 <dmsimard> https://github.com/ansible-collections/overview/pull/201
18:11:42 <gundalow> Thanks, I thought we had an issue with a list of candidates to remove, though can't see that now
18:12:14 <gundalow> ah, this one https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/79
18:12:27 <dmsimard> yes
18:12:30 <gundalow> #topic Removing collections
18:12:42 <gundalow> #info https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/79 https://github.com/ansible-collections/overview/pull/201
18:13:13 <samccann> o/
18:13:21 <gundalow> #chair samccann
18:13:21 <zodbot> Current chairs: Carol Chen acozine briantist cyberpear dmsimard gundalow samccann
18:13:25 <dmsimard> unless mistaken, I think felixfontein's PR should go up for vote so we can take care of it asap
18:14:05 <gundalow> Yup
18:14:17 <gundalow> #chair
18:14:17 <zodbot> Current chairs: Carol Chen acozine briantist cyberpear dmsimard gundalow samccann
18:14:26 <gundalow> Please review and vote on https://github.com/ansible-collections/overview/pull/201 (on the PR)
18:14:42 <dmsimard> I don't suppose we have sufficient quorum here but we should call out the steering committee on it to see if there are any objections
18:15:00 <remindbot[m]> @cybette:ansible.im cyb-clock chimes every 15 minutes during the community meeting
18:15:57 * gundalow adds `+1 to this once existing review comments have been addresses.`
18:16:11 <gundalow> Thanks for adding the call David :)
18:16:31 <dmsimard> yeah I pinged the steering committee group, hopefully that works
18:16:41 <gundalow> acozine: Thanks for all the time you've already spent reviewing #201
18:16:55 <acozine> you're welcome
18:17:16 <acozine> a little clarity in the docs might avoid a lot of argument later if we ever need to act on them
18:17:48 <acozine> I'd still like to see that extra heading added, but I'm content to add it later. iterative improvement
18:18:02 <gundalow> Agreed
18:18:41 <gundalow> Anything else on that, or should we move on?
18:18:41 <gundalow> What's from https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/labels/next_meeting
18:18:49 * acozine BRB
18:19:42 <dmsimard> those have been discussed in some capacity, not sure whether we can make meaningful progress on them right now
18:19:53 <dmsimard> though there are some new topics (without the next_meeting label)
18:20:45 <dmsimard> There's "CLI program which prints the Ansible package's version" https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/89
18:20:57 <dmsimard> and "Environment variables prefix with ANSIBLE_, and AWX" https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/88
18:21:19 <gundalow> #topic CLI program which prints the Ansible package's version
18:21:25 <gundalow> #info https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/89
18:21:34 <dmsimard> for #89, the gist of it is that "ansible --version" only returns the version of ansible-core, not the version of the ansible community package (if it is installed)
18:22:27 <dmsimard> it's more a political issue than a technical one (returning the version of ansible, if it's installed, would be a few lines of code) but there is a suggestion of adding an "ansible-community" CLI which could provide the version
18:22:38 <gundalow> Lots of folks have asked for this since we moved to collections. I think the questions are
18:22:38 <gundalow> 1) What should it be called, personally, I think it needs to be `ansible-$something`
18:23:28 <gundalow> 2. Check that Core Team are happy
18:23:48 <gundalow> 3. Might we need to extend functionality in the future (ie more than just version)
18:23:52 <samccann> isn't there a way already to tell the Ansible (package) version?
18:23:56 <dmsimard> right now the version of the community package can be returned with: python3 -c 'from ansible_collections.ansible_release import ansible_version; print(ansible_version)' or via pip show ansible | awk '/Version/ {print $2}
18:24:03 <dmsimard> neither of which are ideal or user-friendly
18:24:05 <samccann> I seem to recall some 'trick' to get that to display but I can't find the details
18:24:33 <samccann> ah I think it was that `pip show ansible` i was thinking about (w/o the awk etc)
18:24:53 <dmsimard> yeah, it's just that pip show ansible returns a bit more than just the version
18:24:58 <dmsimard> the awk filters it down to just the version
18:25:28 <dmsimard> it is confusing for users to install ansible 5 and then ansible --version returns 2.12
18:25:47 <dmsimard> I'm not convinced a new CLI will address that specific confusion
18:25:49 <gundalow> Though that wouldn't work for people that install via (say) PPA
18:26:37 <dmsimard> gundalow: I'm pretty sure pip returns distro-installed packages too
18:27:11 <gundalow> So maybe the new command should return ansible & ansible-core version?
18:27:56 <samccann> feels like the problem is ^^ right there
18:28:12 <samccann> as in we call it ansible and mean the package, but the command is ansible and means ansible-core
18:28:39 <dmsimard> gundalow: pretend we have a new CLI called ansible-community and it returns both versions, it won't help the confusion of "ansible --version" only returning ansible-core
18:29:18 <gundalow> Maybe `ansible --version` could call `ansible-community-version` as well?
18:30:00 <gundalow> bcoca: Can you remember what concerns Core had about extending `ansible --version` to return `ansible` package version info?
18:30:01 <remindbot[m]> @cybette:ansible.im cyb-clock chimes every 15 minutes during the community meeting
18:31:01 <briantist> I would imagine it's a dependency issue?
18:31:06 <bcoca> gundalow: mostly confusion since ansible and ansible are not the same thing
18:31:21 <briantist> perfectly worded bcoca
18:31:34 <bcoca> ansible is provided by ansibvle-core which is a dependency of ansible, but show's ansible's version and not ansible's version
18:31:51 <briantist> [wags finger] ah, ah ah! ansible is not the same as ansible 😌
18:32:06 <dmsimard> bcoca: and the repo is ansible/ansible
18:32:14 <gundalow> If I could go back in time, I would have stopped any updates to the `ansible` package and forced new names for both things
18:32:16 <bcoca> that is where ansible lives, but not ansible
18:32:36 <dmsimard> but the CLI is ansible, not ansible-core :p
18:32:48 <gundalow> Though I'm not Cher
18:32:50 <gundalow> anyways
18:33:09 <bcoca> gundalow:  i thought i had won that battle a year earlier but last minute the decision was reverted from 'ansible community package' to 'ansible' and we ended up with a slew of problems we knew of ahead of time,  but failed to prepare for since we were not going to do it
18:33:30 <gundalow> What's done is done
18:33:32 <samccann> I seem to recall we had this discussion a couple of years ago and wanted to ask core if they could make `ansible --version` return both, and the answer was no? (as in not technically possible)?
18:34:06 <bcoca> samccann: techincally it is possible, its just confusing that `ansible --version` returns ansbile-core 2.12 ansible 5
18:34:20 <gundalow> I'm not sure how this is different to `ansible --version` returning Python version
18:34:34 <bcoca> or 'no ansilbe' if commujnity package isn't present
18:34:36 <dmsimard> https://github.com/ansible/ansible/pull/72287 was the PR in which there was an update to clarify the version being ansible-core
18:34:37 <samccann> yeah seems like if the package is present, it's just another line in the output
18:34:44 <bcoca> gundalow:  ansible is not named python
18:34:46 <dmsimard> I had asked about including the version of the ansible package in it but it didn't happen
18:34:52 <bcoca> if it were, that woudl be confusing
18:35:45 <dmsimard> ah, wait, that's not the one I was thinking about
18:35:47 <bcoca> even the 'python version' we return is not useful, since people dont map that automatically to /usr/path/thispython
18:35:48 <briantist> ansible package is also downstream of ansible core, coordinating changes sounds troublesome
18:36:35 <bcoca> briantist: why core decided on 'compromise' and show [ansible-core] on --version
18:36:37 <briantist> However, what if `ansible --version` just mentioned the command to run to get the ansible package version... I mean yeah the command could change, but much less coupling, much less chance for incompatibility
18:36:38 <gundalow> Maybe this is better suited to `ansible-support-tools`, something like jtanner's ansible-doctor
18:36:50 <gundalow> briantist: That sounds like a good idea
18:37:08 <jtanner> ?
18:37:11 <briantist> or even just linked to instructions, maybe even better
18:37:15 * jtanner was on a different screen
18:37:24 <bcoca> briantist: core package version might depend on how you installed it (rpm/apt/pip/etc)
18:37:29 <gundalow> jtanner: Did you make some support/debug scripts?
18:37:46 <gundalow> "run this to find out everything about ansible on your machine"
18:37:48 <bcoca> unless you want to give out python one liner
18:37:49 <jtanner> https://github.com/ansible/ansible-doctor
18:38:00 <bcoca> then you also have to use 'the right python' TM
18:38:34 <jtanner> https://github.com/jctanner/ansible-tools/blob/master/scripts/ansible-install-lister ... not maintained
18:39:05 <briantist> bcoca: I am thinking just give a short URL/permalink to instructions about how to get the package version, or whatever we want to put on such a page
18:39:07 <gundalow> jtanner: Thanks
18:39:30 <bcoca> briantist: page has same issue
18:39:45 <briantist> this is just to address the user confusion thing..
18:39:52 <bcoca> also ansible-core cannot give 'ansible package' version dependant urls ... that is an issue we chose not to fix
18:40:04 <bcoca> 'we' == community team + docs team + core team
18:40:26 <bcoca> and latest/ does not work for when new versions get published and change
18:41:06 <briantist> I don't think it needs to be a version-dependent URL to be effective (there's already a separate docs discussion about how/where to host pages that don't really fit a specific version)
18:41:15 <bcoca> user confusion will persist as long as we do confusing things
18:41:27 <bcoca> briantist: until the method changes ...
18:41:30 <gundalow> bcoca: What about "To find the version of the "ansible" package see https://docs.ansible.com/ansible/latest/community/version.html"
18:42:07 <bcoca> gundalow: i just made the point about the inadequacy of /latest/
18:42:59 <gundalow> bcoca: hum, I don't follow why that's an issue
18:43:08 <samccann> can the `ansible --version` command just say 'use pip show ansible to see the community package version`
18:43:15 <samccann> that way it stays accurate to whatever is installed
18:43:37 <bcoca> gundalow: version 6 changes how you store version, version 5 shipped with  /latest/ users of 5 will get wrong info once 6 is released
18:43:43 <samccann> i realize there is more text in that pip output but it's not rocket science to find the version in it
18:43:48 <gundalow> Or what about new section such as https://docs.ansible.com/ansible/devel/installation_guide/intro_installation.html#whats#installed
18:44:09 <bcoca> /devel/ is even worse than /latest/
18:44:28 <bcoca> gundalow: the problem is not the section, its the version
18:44:34 <jtanner> imo the confusion is not going to be solved by excessive docs or extending cli outputs. If core is no longer "ansible", the bin script should change to "ansible-core[playbook] and the "ansible" package should provide it's own bin script with either a redirect to core. Or the "ansible" package stops masquerading as ansible and is renamed to something more apt like "ansible-community" or something like that
18:44:56 <bcoca> ^ what he said
18:45:01 <remindbot[m]> @cybette:ansible.im cyb-clock chimes every 15 minutes during the community meeting
18:45:14 <gundalow> OK. I don't think we are getting anywhere, so should change topics
18:45:19 <samccann> personally i do get tired of calling it Ansible the package so people know
18:45:57 <bcoca> samccann: but ansible provides ansible as it depends on github ansible, but it itself is not ansible, yet depends  on ansible
18:46:13 * samccann smacks bcoca w a rubber chicken
18:46:14 <samccann> heh
18:47:12 * cybette researches rubber chicken for swag
18:47:38 <gundalow> -----------------------------
18:47:42 <gundalow> #topic Open Floor
18:47:46 <gundalow> Anyone got anything else?
18:48:30 <bcoca> i keep getting ticktees for the other bcoca ...
18:49:04 <gundalow> #info Ansible London Meetup used Jitsi-> YouTube + Matrix #europe:ansible.com ) for the first time, for yesterday's meetup. Seemed to work well
18:50:18 <cybette> #info Ansible Montreal meetup tomorrow (April 21), presentations will be in French, details and sign up https://www.meetup.com/Ansible-Montreal/events/284804996/
18:50:37 <dmsimard> yes, I will be at the Montreal meetup with swag \o/
18:50:48 <cybette> \o/
18:51:34 * briantist learns French by tomorrow 🤔
18:52:32 <dmsimard> gundalow: we're doing it on bluejeans this time but I hope we can switch to matrix+jitsi for the next one
18:53:47 <acozine> will it be bilingual?
18:55:40 <acozine> nm, i see it will be in French
18:56:00 <acozine> don't think my college French would be up to that, though
18:56:47 <cybette> acozine: feel free to organize an English one in your area (I'll be happy to support/help)
18:56:57 <gundalow> dmsimard: Going to schedule another virtual London meetup for end of next month
18:57:14 <acozine> heh, there's already one here in MSP . . . and yes, it's in English
18:57:32 <felixfontein> sorry, I forgot to mention that I'm not around today :)
18:58:01 <briantist> what do you mean Felix, you're right there 👆
18:58:07 <gundalow> felixfontein: :)
18:58:08 <felixfontein> I just came home
18:58:55 <acozine> heh
18:59:15 <acozine> is there a reason https://github.com/ansible-collections/overview/pull/201 is still marked `WIP`, felixfontein ?
19:00:02 <felixfontein> I don't think there is
19:00:18 <felixfontein> it's mainly that I completely forgot last week to un-WIP it and create a voting issue...
19:01:47 <gundalow> thanks for un-WIP'ing that felixfontein
19:02:09 <gundalow> (and I apologise for abusing the English language)
19:02:19 <gundalow> I guess we are done
19:02:21 <gundalow> Thanks all
19:02:27 <gundalow> #endmeeting