19:00:00 <felixfontein> #startmeeting Ansible Community Meeting
19:00:00 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Jan  4 19:00:00 2023 UTC.
19:00:00 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
19:00:01 <zodbot> The chair is felixfontein. Information about MeetBot at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Zodbot#Meeting_Functions.
19:00:01 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
19:00:01 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'ansible_community_meeting'
19:00:01 <felixfontein> #topic Agenda https://github.com/ansible/community/issues/645
19:00:05 <andersson007___> o/
19:00:05 <felixfontein> acozine, andersson007_, anwesha, baptistemm, bcoca, briantist, cidrblock, cyberpear, cybette, dericcrago, dmsimard, felixfontein, geerlingguy, gotmax, gundalow, gwmngilfen, ikhan_, jillr, jtanner, lmodemal, mariolenz[m], markuman, maxamillion, misc, nitzmahone, oranod, resmo, russoz, samccann, thaumos, zbr: The Ansible community meeting is starting now!
19:00:10 <felixfontein> The ping list is stored at https://kutt.it/meeting-people. Feel free to add or remove yourself.
19:00:14 <felixfontein> #chair andersson007___
19:00:14 <zodbot> Current chairs: andersson007___ felixfontein
19:00:14 <felixfontein> #info Agenda: https://github.com/ansible/community/issues/645 / Topics: https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics
19:00:21 <felixfontein> #topic Updates
19:00:42 <SeanSullivan[m]> /wave
19:00:59 <felixfontein> #chair SeanSullivan[m]
19:00:59 <zodbot> Current chairs: SeanSullivan[m] andersson007___ felixfontein
19:01:07 <markuman[m]> <andersson007___> "i've no idea:)" <- ...underscore entropy
19:01:09 <mariolenz[m]> o/
19:01:23 <mariolenz[m]> What about [google.cloud](https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/105)?
19:01:26 <andersson007___> hehe
19:01:30 <felixfontein> #chair mariolenz[m]
19:01:30 <zodbot> Current chairs: SeanSullivan[m] andersson007___ felixfontein mariolenz[m]
19:01:34 <mariolenz[m]> My idea is to wait until the next ansible release where google.cloud 1.1.2 should be included and then start a vote on [cancelling the removal](https://github.com/ansible-collections/overview/blob/main/removal_from_ansible.rst#cancelling-removal-of-an-unmaintained-collection). Does this sound OK? Or should we vote sooner?
19:01:40 <cybette_> o/
19:01:45 <felixfontein> #chair markuman[m]
19:01:45 <zodbot> Current chairs: SeanSullivan[m] andersson007___ felixfontein mariolenz[m] markuman[m]
19:01:49 <felixfontein> #chair cybette_
19:01:49 <zodbot> Current chairs: SeanSullivan[m] andersson007___ cybette_ felixfontein mariolenz[m] markuman[m]
19:02:25 <andersson007___> mariolenz[m]: SGTM
19:02:36 <felixfontein> mariolenz[m]: I think it's ok to start voting earlier already
19:02:37 <andersson007___> thanks for keeping an eye on it
19:03:25 <felixfontein> the next release including google.cloud will be Ansible 7.2 at the end of this month
19:03:42 <felixfontein> but waiting is also fine with me
19:04:28 <felixfontein> I guess we also have to talk about cyberark.pas (https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/168)
19:05:11 <felixfontein> unfortunately nothing happened so far, but that could of course be related to the winter holidays
19:05:30 <oranod> hey everyone
19:05:32 <oranod> o/
19:05:38 <felixfontein> #chair oranod
19:05:38 <zodbot> Current chairs: SeanSullivan[m] andersson007___ cybette_ felixfontein mariolenz[m] markuman[m] oranod
19:06:10 <felixfontein> #topic (Undoing) removals of google.cloud and cyberark.pas
19:06:38 <felixfontein> #info google.cloud 1.1.2 has been released and the collection seems to be maintained again
19:07:06 <andersson007___> which is great
19:07:07 <felixfontein> #info cyberark.pas has not seen any update despite a promise that something will happen, though this could also just be because of winter vacation time
19:08:24 <andersson007___> let's wait with cyberark then:)
19:08:50 <felixfontein> mariolenz[m]: do you want to start a vote of re-adding google.cloud when the Ansible 7.2.0 release happens? if yes I'll add an #action for you :)
19:10:06 <felixfontein> how long should we wait for cyberark? how about until 10 days before the release of 7.2.0 is scheduled, and then vote if something happened on whether to delay (or even cancel) the planned removal + announcement?
19:10:49 <andersson007___> SGTM, the thing is not to forget
19:11:08 <mariolenz[m]> Felix Fontein: yep, i would. feel free to add an action for me and also to ping me in case i forget to do it :-)
19:11:09 <felixfontein> that would be around the 14th of January
19:11:42 <felixfontein> #action mariolenz Create vote to re-add google.cloud to Ansible 8 when Ansible 7.2.0 has been released with a new google.cloud version
19:12:34 <andersson007___> let me know when we're done with this topic, i have a quick (hope) proposal
19:13:05 <mariolenz[m]> not to put too fine a point on it, but it looks to me like cyberark.pas is only faking maintanance...
19:13:11 <felixfontein> feel free to add a new #topic, I don't think anyone else will write something
19:13:39 <felixfontein> mariolenz[m]: I'm not sure yet, but if nothing continues to be happening in the next ~10 days I tend to agree
19:13:55 <Warkdev[m]> o/
19:14:04 <felixfontein> so far the only thing happening was an added CODEOWNERS file
19:14:08 <felixfontein> #chair Warkdev[m]
19:14:08 <zodbot> Current chairs: SeanSullivan[m] Warkdev[m] andersson007___ cybette_ felixfontein mariolenz[m] markuman[m] oranod
19:15:01 <remindbot[m]> @cybette:ansible.im cyb-clock chimes every 15 minutes during the community meeting
19:15:11 <felixfontein> is everyone OK with waiting ~10 days to see whether something happened by then?
19:15:22 <felixfontein> if yes, I'll write that in the topic
19:15:32 <andersson007___> +1
19:16:18 <Warkdev[m]> +1, Xmas time is terrible
19:17:00 <mariolenz[m]> andersson007___: what did you want to propose?
19:17:06 <andersson007___> sec
19:17:24 <andersson007___> #topic adding a requirement to collection requirements for maintainers to subscribe to the news-for-maintainers repo and have this info in README for future maintainers
19:17:38 <andersson007___> So I'd like to ask you folks what do you think about adding another requirement to collection requirements saying that collection maintainers must subscribe to news-for-maintainers and track it and this info must be in collection's README. Ideas? If there's support, i'll create a topic
19:17:52 <andersson007___> and a PR
19:18:36 <andersson007___> or it'd be just a noise? not sure
19:18:54 <felixfontein> hmm, I think it would be better to have one place which says what maintainers have to do, and make every collection README link to that instead
19:19:11 <felixfontein> that makes it easier to update, and clutters collection READMEs less
19:19:13 <andersson007___> sounds good
19:19:27 <jtanner> what is the expectation after they are subscribed?
19:19:33 <jtanner> what problem is being solved
19:19:39 <felixfontein> READMEs are aimed at many difference audiences, and maintainers are a very small subset of all persons looking at the README
19:19:55 <SeanSullivan[m]> I mean as someone who is subscribed, and working through the checklist, just because they are subscribed, doesn't mean they Read, or Remember everything in the News for Maintainers
19:20:28 <jtanner> just like python devs don't read all the PEPs
19:20:34 <andersson007___> the aim is that they are aware of updates that will make their ci red (and contributors angry) if no action is done
19:20:37 <markuman[m]> yeah, subscribed != read it ...
19:20:39 <bcoca> requiremetn is 'keep up to date' .. .not subscribe (you can say a good way tto do so is to subcscribe)
19:21:07 <andersson007___> but they at least will know about it. many diligent folks will track, i think
19:23:09 <andersson007___> now i ask them to subscribe in every inclusion request describing why it's needed and they do but how about future maintainers
19:23:37 <andersson007___> it should be visible, at least in readme or somewhere
19:24:00 <felixfontein> it might be better to have a list of "things you should look at / know about / ... when being a maintainer" and make sure that list is easy to find, for example by making sure it is linked from collection READMEs, instead of trying to force folks to subscribe to something (and potentially ignore it)
19:24:16 <jtanner> s/potentially/probably
19:24:23 <andersson007___> felixfontein:
19:24:26 <andersson007___> i agree
19:24:27 <russoz[m]> Good morning everyone 😁
19:24:40 <andersson007___> morning russoz[m] !
19:24:44 <felixfontein> #chair jtanner bcoca russoz[m]
19:24:44 <zodbot> Current chairs: SeanSullivan[m] Warkdev[m] andersson007___ bcoca cybette_ felixfontein jtanner mariolenz[m] markuman[m] oranod russoz[m]
19:24:52 <felixfontein> good morning that side of the planet ;)
19:25:02 <jtanner> it's late lunch time here
19:25:07 <SeanSullivan[m]> agree on felix point
19:25:22 <andersson007___> 20 25 here
19:25:26 <russoz[m]> <felixfontein> "is everyone OK with waiting ~..." <- Yup, +1 on that
19:25:43 <SeanSullivan[m]> Good Time of Day to you andersson Bond!
19:25:57 <andersson007___> hehe
19:26:52 <markuman[m]> the cause of this topic is imo also the lack of number of maintainer on some collections.
19:26:55 <andersson007___> we have maintainer guidelines btw, i'll check if the info is there
19:27:19 <andersson007___> about news-for-maintainers, should be
19:27:20 <mariolenz[m]> <andersson007___> "So I'd like to ask you folks..." <- Can we automate checking this? Everything we have to do manually sucks.. well, not everything. But the more automation, the better.
19:28:02 <andersson007___> mariolenz[m]: if they have a link to the maintainer guidelines in their readme i think we can automate it
19:28:14 <jtanner> perhaps it's time to start building a system where collections don't need maintainers
19:28:14 <andersson007___> check if it's there
19:29:05 <felixfontein> jtanner: hmm, that would be nice :)
19:29:19 <felixfontein> not that trivial though
19:29:20 <andersson007___> exclude everything:)
19:29:38 <jtanner> perhaps
19:29:54 <felixfontein> at some point you always need some folks to make sure that a collection sticks to some standard (whatever it is), and these folks would again be collection maintainers
19:29:59 <jtanner> process begets process
19:30:01 <remindbot[m]> @cybette:ansible.im cyb-clock chimes every 15 minutes during the community meeting
19:30:20 <felixfontein> but yeah, making it easier to be a collection maintainer is always a good thing :)
19:31:20 <markuman[m]> can chatgpt solve this issue? :)
19:31:35 <felixfontein> I don't think in a good way :D
19:31:56 <jtanner> it might tell everyone to stop making thin rest wrappers into modules
19:32:05 <andersson007___> we could clone issues from news-for-maintainers across all collection repos automatically:)
19:32:38 <Warkdev[m]> jtanner: How else would you do it ?
19:32:51 <jtanner> roles, uri calls, etc
19:33:23 <markuman[m]> maybe the news-for-maintainers can be ended in a PR. once the "news" are merged, GH creates issues in all collections :)
19:33:47 <felixfontein> if you need more than one task, modules are usually more efficient than roles
19:34:00 <SeanSullivan[m]> we might get a process using things to check if people are compliant and then spam them once a week and create a list
19:34:17 <Warkdev[m]> jtanner: uri module is really bad at handling many things when you need to automate R-API's with idemotency in mind imho. Roles do not suit it either due to speed effectiveness. Plus you've the httpapi plugin which is made to interact with API's :)
19:34:33 <Warkdev[m]> Which kind of non-compliance was faced lately ?
19:34:42 <felixfontein> SeanSullivan[m]: sounds like an awesome way to increase the number of happy maintainers ;)
19:34:53 <markuman[m]> Sean Sullivan: that won't work. it's the same as alerts in IT departments. If there are too many, they'll ignored.
19:35:10 <SeanSullivan[m]> Oh agreed, was just responding to the Chat GPT usefulness,
19:35:11 <andersson007___> +1
19:36:09 <felixfontein> Warkdev[m]: not tagging releases in git, not testing against newer ansible-core releases in CI
19:36:44 <felixfontein> and not fixing or properly ignoring issues the sanity tests inform about
19:36:57 <Warkdev[m]> Only speaking about community collections, right ?
19:37:02 <felixfontein> (that are the ones I can think about from the top of my head)
19:37:12 <andersson007___> fyi i'll add a note for myself to come up with the list of things maintainers should be aware of.
19:37:18 <felixfontein> collections included in Ansible, which are not only community collections
19:37:35 <jtanner> Warkdev[m]: that's a good point, which i think implies a more robust/generic uri module would serve most needs
19:37:35 <felixfontein> (if you deine community collection = collection in the cmomunity namespace)
19:38:37 <Warkdev[m]> jtanner: A very simple and basic case is the fact you can't hide a bearer token. Only with no_log which makes playbook handling very nasty if you only have API call's :)
19:38:43 <jtanner> or perhaps a new way in core to make a block of tasks / role into a on-the-fly module or a single remote call
19:39:04 <Warkdev[m]> felixfontein: Ok then what are the options if the rules are not followed, excluded from Ansible ? Then there are unhappy customers who were using those collections, probably
19:39:10 <felixfontein> Warkdev[m]: data tagging should help for that, but no idea when it will be done
19:39:26 <SeanSullivan[m]> Customers can always use the Upstream and include from galaxy
19:39:53 <SeanSullivan[m]> We aren't forcing them not to use it, just basically removing, unmaintained, and poorly maintained colllections
19:39:54 <felixfontein> Warkdev[m]: if the rules are not followed, exclusion from ansible is the only thing we can do... but as SeanSullivan[m] wrote, customers can always install the collections manually
19:39:59 <Warkdev[m]> SeanSullivan[m]: Not all :p
19:40:37 <jtanner> "customers [AND COMMUNITY] can always install the collections manually"
19:40:40 <felixfontein> there are also folks who propagate to abandon the ansible package completely and use ansible-core + a set of collections instead
19:40:54 <jtanner> +1
19:41:05 <jtanner> that was the original intent
19:41:23 <felixfontein> I have to admit that at work I mainly install ansible because I'm too lazy to just install the collections I'm actually using
19:41:38 <andersson007___> there was a discussion https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/82
19:42:01 <andersson007___> just a fyi for folks who don't know
19:42:02 <felixfontein> (on my dev machine I don't have ansible installed, but there I have ansible-core + collections in editable mode :) )
19:42:42 <Warkdev[m]> Well, with EE from AWX, that's the way to go, no ? So if a collection isn't maintained, in that scenario, it doesn't really harm
19:42:46 <markuman[m]> felixfontein: here too. We only install from upstream/git when gets broken and is not released yet
19:43:16 <felixfontein> Warkdev[m]: yes, if you use EEs, you already use ansible-core + your own set of collections
19:43:16 <Warkdev[m]> At work I've no access to Ansible Galaxy nor Redhat Automation Hub, the only available thing is git clone + install of that (I know it sucks but that's corporate speed <3 )
19:43:16 <mariolenz[m]> felixfontein: we install and use ansible because we have a proxa cache for pypi, but not for galaxy ;-P
19:43:38 <markuman[m]> Warkdev[m]: O_o you can access github.com but not galaxy.ansible.com?
19:43:45 <felixfontein> mariolenz[m]: hehe, I would also sum that up under "too lazy" ;)
19:44:19 <jtanner> tbf, galaxy.ansible.com has some scaling issues
19:44:27 * felixfontein is currently reading a book which uses the abbrevation 'corpses' for corporate folks...
19:44:50 <felixfontein> jtanner: oh yes... and a lot of timeout issues
19:44:52 <andersson007___> hehe
19:45:20 <remindbot[m]> @cybette:ansible.im cyb-clock chimes every 15 minutes during the community meeting
19:45:35 <Warkdev[m]> markuman[m]: *I can git clone from my own laptop and copy that to my dev env but I can't ansible-galaxy on my own laptop nor download the tarball (thanks AV Proxy !) indeed. :)
19:45:42 <felixfontein> ok, I guess it's time for open floor if nobody has another proper topic
19:46:00 <felixfontein> #topic open floor
19:46:17 <felixfontein> (the discussion is basically already in open floor mode anyway ;) )
19:46:22 <SeanSullivan[m]> Open Topic, What should be the official Ice Cream Flavor of Ansible
19:46:22 <SeanSullivan[m]> I vote Rasberry to match the Red
19:46:30 <felixfontein> :D
19:46:38 <jtanner> Vanilla, because ansible was supposed to be simple.
19:46:47 <felixfontein> but the community color is ... what was it name again?
19:46:56 <Warkdev[m]> felixfontein: Indeed. I thought it was the final intent (although it starts to make Ansible very complex for a beginner who wouldn't know where to start). I've discussions with complete newbies at work and every word I say is like a new thing "gitlab" "python" "pytest" "module" "vault" "tower" "inventory" :D
19:46:57 <cybette_> pool
19:47:10 <mariolenz[m]> Sounds like security theatre to me :-)=)
19:47:31 <Warkdev[m]> > <@ssulliva:matrix.org> Open Topic, What should be the official Ice Cream Flavor of Ansible
19:47:31 <Warkdev[m]> > I vote Rasberry to match the Red
19:47:31 <Warkdev[m]> Cookie dough because... because !
19:47:47 <andersson007___> mariolenz[m]: hehe
19:47:53 <Warkdev[m]> mariolenz[m]: Laggy answer ? :p
19:47:59 <felixfontein> I would vote for Mövenpick's Swiss Chocolate ice cream, since that's the only one you ever need :P
19:48:13 <mariolenz[m]> yep
19:48:32 <jtanner> alkaline or lithium ice cream, cause you all love the batteries included
19:48:32 <oranod> I think pistachio would match the community colour pretty well
19:48:37 <Warkdev[m]> That's how rather big historical non-IT and highly regulated corporations looks like yup ;)
19:48:46 <felixfontein> jtanner: doesn't sound healthy. but then... ice cream and healthy... so what ;)
19:49:00 <andersson007___> or ice cream with batteries
19:49:04 <andersson007___> whole
19:49:14 <andersson007___> bad for theeth
19:49:14 <felixfontein> note to kids: don't try this at home!!!11
19:49:16 <jtanner> copper sprinkles
19:49:19 <russoz[m]> +1 pistachio
19:49:38 <cybette_> or mint, simple yet refreshing
19:50:08 <Warkdev[m]> You could just split ansible package in ansible-core + another one ansible-batteries, no-one is forced to have batteries but if you install it, you got back the old plain ansible. Maybe that's dumb \o/
19:50:14 <andersson007___> reminds about linux mint
19:50:38 <felixfontein> something not ice cream related: I've started a PR to mention the type of a callback plugin on its docs page, and to create indexes of callback plugins by type (stdout, aggregate, notification). please take a look and comment: https://github.com/ansible-community/antsibull-docs/pull/90 - especially if you have formulation improvements :)
19:51:04 <felixfontein> Warkdev[m]: 'ansible' is basically the 'ansible-batteries' you are proposing :)
19:51:46 <Warkdev[m]> Well, yes and no. The batteries would only be the "common collections that IT world loves" without ansible. So as a user, you'd need to have both. Get people used to ansible-core only..
19:51:59 <felixfontein> ah
19:52:11 <felixfontein> so basically ansible without the dependency on ansible-core?
19:52:41 <felixfontein> but then you can install ansible-core 2.123 together with ansible-batteries 1.0.0, which very likely won't work well together :)
19:52:54 <andersson007___> :)
19:53:16 <Warkdev[m]> Btw, anyone busy already with the documentation of collections development, pytest stuff and customization ? I've found plenty of info leeching through various collections repo but I couldn't find the official doc sometimes (looking at you config.yaml in tests/unit folder to limit the supported Python versions of ansible-test command)
19:53:19 <mariolenz[m]> This is nothing to discuss right now, but maybe we should have a look at https://github.com/ansible/community/wiki/ because (at least) some of the content looks outdated.
19:53:37 <Warkdev[m]> felixfontein: Yeah, that was a raw idea like I can get sometimes... Not the best thought, opens some door sometimes
19:54:20 <andersson007___> mariolenz[m]: yeah, it needs updates definitely
19:54:51 <felixfontein> Warkdev[m]: docs are a good place to discuss in #docs:ansible.com (matrix) / #ansible-docs (irc)
19:55:13 <mariolenz[m]> yeah, i thoight so...
19:55:27 <Warkdev[m]> Another channel I was missing, thanks ;)
19:56:14 <andersson007___> mariolenz[m]: README should be also updated, there's even no info about matrix
19:56:53 <andersson007___> i already have it in my notes. any help would be much appreciated
19:57:09 <Warkdev[m]> openfloor topic, can we make internal_test_tools a rule for all collection maintainers ? :p
19:57:28 <felixfontein> what do you mean by 'rule'?
19:57:57 <Warkdev[m]> Something you need to have instead of packaging all the time the same mocks ;)
19:58:16 <cybette_> Warkdev: you can see a list of all ansible community channels in #space:ansible.com
19:58:45 <felixfontein> Warkdev[m]: that was my intention when creating that collection, not sure whether anyone uses it so far except me in some cases ;)
20:00:11 <Warkdev[m]> felixfontein: I've used it lately (although it's not published) and I find it handy if you manage multiple collections. If you make it a rule, it then becomes a de-facto documentable "how-to" :)
20:00:26 <mattclay> Warkdev[m]: That config file is briefly mentioned in the docs: https://docs.ansible.com/ansible/latest/dev_guide/testing/sanity/compile.html
20:01:12 <felixfontein> mattclay: looks like there is some broken RST in there :)
20:01:43 <felixfontein> Warkdev[m]: feel free to add more stuff to it (or clean things up in it)
20:01:46 <Warkdev[m]> mattclay: Thanks. I must admit these are not the page I've open when I'm trying to understand "how-to" but rather the general "collection development" page
20:02:02 <felixfontein> ok, I think it's time to end this meeting
20:02:10 <felixfontein> feel free to continue discussing here :)
20:02:12 <felixfontein> #endmeeting