18:59:56 <felixfontein> #startmeeting Ansible Community Meeting
18:59:56 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Jan 11 18:59:56 2023 UTC.
18:59:56 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
18:59:56 <zodbot> The chair is felixfontein. Information about MeetBot at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Zodbot#Meeting_Functions.
18:59:56 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
18:59:56 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'ansible_community_meeting'
18:59:56 <felixfontein> #topic Agenda https://github.com/ansible/community/issues/679
19:00:02 <felixfontein> acozine, andersson007_, anwesha, baptistemm, bcoca, briantist, cidrblock, cyberpear, cybette, dericcrago, dmsimard, felixfontein, geerlingguy, gotmax, gundalow, gwmngilfen, ikhan_, jillr, jtanner, lmodemal, mariolenz[m], markuman, maxamillion, misc, nitzmahone, oranod, resmo, russoz, samccann, thaumos, zbr: The Ansible community meeting is starting now!
19:00:07 <felixfontein> The ping list is stored at https://kutt.it/meeting-people. Feel free to add or remove yourself.
19:00:10 <felixfontein> #info Agenda: https://github.com/ansible/community/issues/679 / Topics: https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics
19:00:13 <felixfontein> #topic Updates
19:00:32 <oranod> hello all
19:00:37 <anwesha[m]> Hello everyone
19:00:38 <mariolenz[m]> o/
19:00:45 <felixfontein> #chair oranod anwesha[m] mariolenz[m]
19:00:45 <zodbot> Current chairs: anwesha[m] felixfontein mariolenz[m] oranod
19:02:30 <felixfontein> hmm, I don't have any updates :)
19:02:44 <maxamillion> .hello2
19:02:45 <zodbot> maxamillion: maxamillion 'Adam Miller' <maxamillion@gmail.com>
19:03:03 <andersson007___> o/
19:03:07 <felixfontein> #chair maxamillion andersson007___
19:03:07 <zodbot> Current chairs: andersson007___ anwesha[m] felixfontein mariolenz[m] maxamillion oranod
19:04:19 <felixfontein> #info cyberark.pas seems to have some activity again (https://github.com/cyberark/ansible-security-automation-collection/commits/master)
19:04:34 <andersson007___> that's cool to hear
19:04:44 <felixfontein> yes. better late than never :)
19:04:49 <andersson007___> yep
19:05:14 <andersson007___> seems kickouts cause some activity
19:05:26 <felixfontein> I guess it's worth to discuss whether to stop the exclusion process (i.e. announce removal from Ansible 8 in the upcoming Ansible 7.2.0 release) or not
19:05:30 <andersson007___> thanks mariolenz[m]
19:05:39 <andersson007___> for revitalizing cyperark
19:06:00 <felixfontein> I wish it would happen without a looming kickout...
19:06:08 <andersson007___> i wish that too
19:06:32 <felixfontein> oh, while we're at it:
19:06:38 <maxamillion> +1 mariolenz for reviving the collection!
19:06:41 <felixfontein> #info There is a vote on removing community.fortios from Ansible: https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/discussions/179
19:07:24 <andersson007___> felixfontein: thanks for reminding!
19:07:27 <felixfontein> IMO that one is a no-brainer, that collection has basically been dead since it was created. the only reason it exists was to move these modules (that depend on the fortios collection) out of community.general so that community.general doesn't need to depend on the fortios collection just for these modules...
19:07:47 <felixfontein> right now there are only 4 SC votes, so we need some more :)
19:08:18 <felixfontein> mariolenz[m]: you yourself didn't vote btw :)
19:08:26 <andersson007___> 5
19:08:29 <maxamillion> can non-SC folks vote? :)
19:08:40 <andersson007___> yep, sure
19:08:50 <andersson007___> they can:)
19:08:53 <felixfontein> andersson007___: it says "4 comments" here, and I only count 4 votes
19:09:24 <felixfontein> mariolenz[m]: a certain amount of SC votes is needed for quorum (and in the end its the SC votes that decide), but anyone can (and is encouraged to!) vote
19:09:26 <andersson007___> ah, yes, mariolenz[m] didn't vote:)
19:09:37 <andersson007___> counted his +1 while scanning:)
19:09:50 <andersson007___> the quorum is 7 afaik
19:10:04 <andersson007___> Steering committee
19:11:27 <felixfontein> I guess we should reconsider adding google.cloud, and instead kick community.google out (which is similar to community.fortios)
19:11:43 <felixfontein> s/reconsider adding/consider readding/
19:12:40 <felixfontein> (community.google exists for a similar reason as community.fortios)
19:13:06 <andersson007___> yep, we should
19:13:17 <andersson007___> i thought it was excluded
19:13:23 <andersson007___> c.google
19:13:33 <felixfontein> (though apparently it has no dependency on c.google)
19:13:46 <felixfontein> nope, we excluded only google.cloud, but not c.google...
19:14:02 <felixfontein> which I think is an oversight
19:14:08 <felixfontein> let me create a vote for that
19:14:13 <mariolenz[m]> sorry, added a plus 1 to vote
19:14:57 <felixfontein> #info dellemc.powerflex will get included in Ansible if there is no objection until tomorrow (https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/177)
19:15:01 <remindbot[m]> @cybette:ansible.im cyb-clock chimes every 15 minutes during the community meeting
19:15:01 <andersson007___> felixfontein: ah, ok
19:15:19 <mariolenz[m]> I've done a lot of work identifying and removing unmaintained collections from the community package last year. At one point, I was fed up with finding out the wording I've used last time for the Bullhorn announcements and wrote some shell scripts to generate them.
19:15:37 <mariolenz[m]> Long story short, I told andersson007_  about this and threatened to publish them. Well, he thought it a good idea so here they are: https://github.com/mariolenz/my-ansible-community-scripts
19:15:59 <felixfontein> btw, we should follow up on the Ansible 8 roadmap: https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/176
19:16:12 <andersson007___> maybe we should put the scripts to community-topics?
19:16:21 <jtanner> hi
19:16:21 <felixfontein> acozine created a PR for a proposal: https://github.com/ansible/ansible/pull/79598
19:16:40 <felixfontein> I added some comments, but I guess they got lost in the holiday time :)
19:16:43 <felixfontein> #chair jtanner
19:16:43 <zodbot> Current chairs: andersson007___ anwesha[m] felixfontein jtanner mariolenz[m] maxamillion oranod
19:17:13 <felixfontein> #info Please take a look at the proposed roadmap for Ansible 8: https://github.com/ansible/ansible/pull/79598 (https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/176)
19:17:30 <andersson007___> sgtm, will try tomorrow
19:17:45 <felixfontein> thanks :)
19:17:53 <acozine> o/
19:18:08 <felixfontein> #chair acozine
19:18:08 <zodbot> Current chairs: acozine andersson007___ anwesha[m] felixfontein jtanner mariolenz[m] maxamillion oranod
19:18:11 <acozine> sorry I'm late
19:18:18 <andersson007___> thanks acozine for the roadmap proposal!
19:19:44 <jtanner> it's too bad we don't have a way to add an "unmaintained" badge on galaxy or something to that effect
19:19:54 <felixfontein> if nobody has a suggestion for a topic, I'd suggest we talk about anwesha[m]'s topic on release blockers for Ansible
19:19:57 <felixfontein> jtanner: indeed!
19:20:10 <felixfontein> #topic Central Location for Release Blockers, and defining what they are
19:20:15 <felixfontein> #info https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/178
19:20:41 <acozine> jtanner: I suppose we could open PRs against READMEs on GitHub with some kind of Badge of Shame, but most folks won't look there.
19:20:49 <mariolenz[m]> felixfontein: I'll try to remember and open a PR to include dellemc.powerflex tomorrow.
19:20:58 <felixfontein> mariolenz[m]: thanks!
19:21:08 <felixfontein> acozine: also they would need to get merged first...
19:21:17 <acozine> heh, true
19:21:19 <andersson007___> mariolenz[m]: +1
19:21:20 <jtanner> sometimes i wonder if people are finding collections through the galaxy UI anyway and if putting things there even matters
19:21:22 * acozine forgot her sweater, BRB
19:22:24 <andersson007___> i put some thoughts in the topic
19:22:32 <felixfontein> jtanner: that's a very good question... the last time I wanted to know whether a collection exists for some product/service I think I simply searched the web for "ansible xxx collection"
19:22:50 <felixfontein> andersson007___: thanks!
19:23:03 <felixfontein> what do folks think about having release blockers as issues in the ansible-build-data repo?
19:23:19 <andersson007___> the badge or other info showing that stuff is unmaintained should imo suggest info that folks are welcome to pick it up
19:23:31 <andersson007___> felixfontein: sgtm
19:23:44 <andersson007___> to have them as issues in there
19:24:01 <andersson007___> + milestones from me
19:24:08 <felixfontein> hmm let's talk about the unmaintained badge later, and first focus on this topic at least for a few mins :)
19:24:15 <andersson007___> sure
19:24:18 <felixfontein> milestones sound goot to me as well
19:24:57 <maxamillion> milestones seem reasonable
19:25:11 <maxamillion> and if for whatever reason that doesn't work, then we can pivot later :)
19:25:24 <felixfontein> true. so far we never had blockers, or at least none that I can remember
19:25:45 <felixfontein> but if we have some, putting them there seems to be the most obvious place to me
19:25:55 <felixfontein> I guess the main thing we should do is document this
19:26:04 <andersson007___> README?
19:26:07 <felixfontein> the hard part (IMO) is defining what a release blocker actually is :)
19:26:12 <felixfontein> yep, README sounds good
19:26:24 <andersson007___> we have some info there already about WF
19:26:32 <felixfontein> I like the definition andersson007___ suggested in the issue
19:26:32 <andersson007___> about milistones etc. afaik
19:27:52 <felixfontein> anyone wants to volunteer to update the README? ;)
19:28:04 <andersson007___> i could:)
19:28:11 <felixfontein> that would be awesome :)
19:28:32 <felixfontein> if folks have more suggestions/ideas/opinions, please add them in https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/178
19:28:36 <anwesha[m]> Can we a have clear definition about what is a release blocker?
19:28:57 <felixfontein> anwesha[m]: I have no idea how such a definition should look like
19:29:20 <felixfontein> at least if I interpret 'clear' as from a mathematician's point of view :)
19:29:22 <anwesha[m]> Since we are updating the README if may be we want to add that.
19:29:32 <maxamillion> felixfontein: Fedora has a whole process for this that is well defined, along with criteria https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Blocker_Bug_FAQ
19:29:52 <andersson007___> anwesha[m]: i'll add something like https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/178#issuecomment-1371891621
19:29:54 <maxamillion> I'm sure other projects do too, I'm just most familiar with Fedora's
19:30:01 <remindbot[m]> @cybette:ansible.im cyb-clock chimes every 15 minutes during the community meeting
19:30:19 <andersson007___> maxamillion: ah, thanks for the link, i'll take a look tomorrow
19:30:30 <maxamillion> felixfontein: errrr ... this was the link I meant to drop, that other one is good too though https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA:SOP_blocker_bug_process
19:30:40 <maxamillion> andersson007___: ^^^^
19:30:41 <andersson007___> maybe will give some ideas on how it can be improved
19:30:43 <maxamillion> certainly :)
19:30:47 <andersson007___> maxamillion:  ok, thanks
19:31:26 <andersson007___> i'll create a draft PR which we can discuss in the next meeting
19:31:27 <felixfontein> from my POV these are not clear definitions either, but they are better than what we have right now
19:31:28 <andersson007___> if needed
19:31:33 <felixfontein> cool, thanks!
19:32:17 <anwesha[m]> andersson007___: thank you
19:32:19 <felixfontein> ok, any more comments on this topic (for this meeting)?
19:32:31 <andersson007___> the community is always welcome
19:32:45 <andersson007___> :)
19:32:49 <felixfontein> :)
19:32:57 <felixfontein> #topic How to mark collections as unmaintained
19:33:14 <felixfontein> (I think we had this topic already multiple times over the last years)
19:33:20 <anwesha[m]> andersson007___: Stressing on the point community here :)
19:33:42 <felixfontein> jtanner: I think the big problem with having such a label on Galaxy is: who can actually set that label?
19:33:53 <andersson007___> anwesha[m]: yep
19:34:06 <jtanner> i think it'd have to be controlled by community leadership / steering / etc
19:34:08 <felixfontein> there will be quite a few unmaintained collections where there's nobody left who can / wants to do that, even if it would be possible
19:34:10 <andersson007___> felixfontein: we maybe
19:34:22 <andersson007___> who arranges exclusion
19:34:35 <andersson007___> we could add anything related to the WF
19:34:44 <andersson007___> i.e. to the checklist
19:34:46 <felixfontein> the question is whether we should have that power (or who should have that power in general)
19:34:49 <acozine> we're thinking of this in terms of collections that are or were included in the Ansible package, but a lot of content on Galaxy has never been in Ansible . . . do we mark those collections too?
19:35:03 <jtanner> maybe
19:35:05 <felixfontein> removing from Ansible is a very different thing than declaring something unmaintained on Galaxy
19:35:11 <andersson007___> acozine: fair point
19:35:14 <felixfontein> acozine: indeed!
19:35:15 <jtanner> galaxy shouldn't be a sand trap of busted stuff
19:35:42 <andersson007___> i'm not sure if galaxy will work for included collections
19:35:43 <jtanner> i feel like the effort made to assess ansible's collections could benefit those on galaxy too
19:35:46 <felixfontein> jtanner: hmm, that's usually what non-curated public package repos end up being
19:36:03 <felixfontein> I mean, look at npm or pypi, you will find tons of unmaintained stuff
19:36:09 <acozine> don't we keep a list of included collections somewhere as metadata for the docs build?
19:36:10 <jtanner> perhaps. i'm just thinking out loud
19:36:20 <acozine> maybe we could use that as a place to mark unmaintained stuff?
19:36:34 <andersson007___> can there be working appearing when collection is used?
19:36:50 <andersson007___> saying that it's gonna be removed, feel free to pick it up if you want
19:36:52 <jtanner> working?
19:37:02 <felixfontein> or some kind of dead person switch, you get an email that if you don't press a button in the next three months, your collection will be marked as unmaintained... with some reminders
19:37:04 <andersson007___> warning sorry
19:37:15 <felixfontein> though that requires some contact email
19:37:51 <andersson007___> do you mean the warning?
19:37:52 <felixfontein> acozine: the docs build uses the collections that are in Ansible itself
19:38:33 <andersson007___> we could use our team's public email, or there can be a link to the collection's repo
19:38:51 <acozine> felixfontein: where does it pull the list from, then? I can't remember.
19:39:04 <felixfontein> acozine: the ansible-build-data repo
19:39:25 <felixfontein> the docsite has exactly the collections listed that are in the corresponding Ansible release
19:39:37 <acozine> ah, thanks felixfontein
19:39:50 <acozine> so we could have a marker in ansible-build-data, perhaps
19:40:08 <felixfontein> but yeah, what we could do is show some 'unmaintained' indicator on the docsite, for collections we decided are unmaintained and will be removed fom Ansible
19:40:08 <acozine> or list a "last updated" date there, or something
19:40:32 <felixfontein> right now that information is only shown in the Ansible changelog (and added there manually)
19:40:34 <andersson007___> docsite indicator sgtm
19:40:42 <andersson007___> with contact info
19:41:14 <andersson007___> and something like "click here if you want to maintain it"
19:41:28 <felixfontein> that only works if we have access to the collection repo
19:41:35 <felixfontein> (like for community.google and community.fortios)
19:41:43 <felixfontein> but doesn't work for collections like cyberark.pas
19:41:43 <andersson007___> felixfontein: fair point too
19:42:34 <andersson007___> another question is raising: should we encourage people to move repos to ansible-collections ?
19:43:16 <mariolenz[m]> I'm not sure about all the collections on galaxy, but I think it would be a good idea to have some 'the community considers this collection unmaintained' info on the docsite.
19:43:21 <felixfontein> I guess the main disadvantage is that CI for other repos in that collection gets slower every time a new repo is added :)
19:43:36 <andersson007___> felixfontein: fair point
19:44:15 <jtanner> i think from an economics standpoint, people should not move their to the ansible-collection org ... unless the CI budget is unlimited
19:44:19 <andersson007___> also we cannot add new maintainers if we don't have access to a repo
19:44:32 <felixfontein> right now we have a 'dead CI hour' at around 6:00 UTC, since many GHA based collections in gh.com/ansible-collections have their nightly CI run exactly then
19:44:57 <felixfontein> if you create a PR roughtly in 6-7 UTC, you basically have to wait for a long time until CI runs
19:45:01 <remindbot[m]> @cybette:ansible.im cyb-clock chimes every 15 minutes during the community meeting
19:45:58 <andersson007___> felixfontein: can't this be significantly improved by adding `--changed` to GHA in all the collections?
19:46:16 <andersson007___> i mean to `ansible-test` in GHA
19:46:26 <felixfontein> andersson007___: --changed doesn't work for nightly runs
19:46:34 <andersson007___> ah, yes
19:46:41 <felixfontein> resp. the idea for nightly runs is to run all tests :)
19:46:46 * andersson007___ woke up at 4 a.m today
19:47:00 <felixfontein> wow, that's early!
19:47:20 * andersson007___ is feeling it
19:47:47 <andersson007___> sorry for dumb questions today:)
19:47:59 <felixfontein> no problem :)
19:48:21 <felixfontein> also there are no dumb questions. there are only things you shouldn't have asked ;)
19:48:25 <felixfontein> (just joking)
19:48:30 <andersson007___> hehe
19:48:55 <andersson007___> can there be a file listing unmaintained collections?
19:49:17 <andersson007___> which doc generation system will use to put labels?
19:49:54 <felixfontein> andersson007___: I would use the collection meta for that (https://github.com/ansible-community/ansible-build-data/blob/main/8/collection-meta.yaml)
19:50:11 <andersson007___> felixfontein: also sgtm
19:51:15 <andersson007___> and you can easily grep stuff there to get the list if needed
19:51:24 <andersson007___> and in general it feels like a good place
19:51:30 <felixfontein> I created an issue for that in antsibull-docs: https://github.com/ansible-community/antsibull-docs/issues/93
19:51:31 <andersson007___> suitable
19:51:38 <andersson007___> felixfontein: thanks!
19:52:06 * felixfontein thinks of removed_in_version and make antsibull fail when it finds a collection in the current release that is supposed to be removed :)
19:52:37 <felixfontein> #topic open floor
19:52:50 <felixfontein> for the last few minutes of the meeting, does anyone want to talk about something else?
19:52:58 * andersson007___ thinks it's a good idea
19:53:23 * andersson007___ thinks it shouldn't be lost
19:54:03 <jtanner> just to repeat my previous update: we pushed the roles UI out to the "production" version of galaxy-beta
19:54:04 <felixfontein> once we have some deprecation info in collection-meta, I'll more or less automatically will add that ;)
19:54:14 <felixfontein> jtanner: cool!
19:54:28 <andersson007___> sounds great
19:54:31 <acozine> jtanner: link?
19:54:50 <jtanner> https://beta-galaxy.ansible.com/
19:54:56 <acozine> thanks!
19:55:00 <felixfontein> jtanner: will galaxy-beta render collection docs (similar to AH)? or will it just show README and basic content like community Galaxy?
19:55:13 <jtanner> lol, now the site won't load for me
19:55:24 <jtanner> okay , there it goes
19:55:30 <felixfontein> #info The roles UI is now available on the 'production' galaxy-beta: https://beta-galaxy.ansible.com/
19:55:48 <felixfontein> after I allowed it to use JavaScript it loads for me ;)
19:56:04 <andersson007___> should this be announced via bullhorn?
19:56:38 <andersson007___> in case there's interest in broader audience's feedback
19:56:54 <jtanner> felixfontein: it's expected to display the rendered docs, just as they do on console.redhat.com ... there is however an issue with how we're syncing the collections from galaxy.ansible.com in that the sync process doesn't include the docs. We have an api and a script that will rebuild the docs though
19:57:22 <felixfontein> jtanner: ah, that's nice!
19:57:37 <jtanner> collections that are "published/uploaded/etc" to the system directly will have the docs built as part of the import process
19:58:16 <felixfontein> I was planning to take a closer look at the docs rendering process in galaxy_ng anyway
19:58:35 <felixfontein> (to create a PR to support semantic markup)
19:59:04 <acozine> oooh, that's awesome!
20:00:06 <jtanner> https://beta-galaxy-dev.ansible.com/ui/repo/community/community/zabbix/docs/ ... note the bug
20:00:11 <jtanner> we do intend to fix it
20:00:15 <andersson007___> maxamillion:  for the context, we encourage the community to discuss and vote in the topics:) Folks who do it regularly will probably be offered to become SC members;)
20:00:31 <maxamillion> andersson007___: rgr that
20:00:59 <maxamillion> is there a "chair limit" on SC memebers or does it just keep growning and shrinking based on current active contributors?
20:01:12 <jtanner> we also have the issue that gotmax[m] pointed out with the published vs community repo thing. we still have to figure out how to fix that
20:01:13 <andersson007___> maxamillion: no limit:)
20:01:20 <maxamillion> rgr that
20:02:13 <felixfontein> ok, time to end the meeting, the hour is over!
20:02:16 <felixfontein> #endmeeting