18:00:00 <felixfontein> #startmeeting Ansible Community Meeting
18:00:00 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Jun  7 18:00:00 2023 UTC.
18:00:00 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
18:00:00 <zodbot> The chair is felixfontein. Information about MeetBot at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Zodbot#Meeting_Functions.
18:00:00 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
18:00:00 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'ansible_community_meeting'
18:00:00 <felixfontein> #topic Agenda https://github.com/ansible/community/issues/679
18:00:04 <felixfontein> Landrash[m], Leo[m], acozine, andersson007_, anwesha, ascherbaum, baptistemm, bcoca, briantist, cidrblock, cyberpear, cybette, dericcrago, dmsimard, felixfontein, geerlingguy, gotmax, gundalow, gwmngilfen, ikhan_, jillr, jtanner, lmodemal, mariolenz[m], markuman, maxamillion, misc, nitzmahone, ompragash, oranod, resmo, russoz, samccann, thaumos, wbentley15[m], zbr: The Ansible community
18:00:10 <felixfontein> meeting is starting now!
18:00:12 <felixfontein> #topic Updates
18:00:14 <gotmax23> .h9
18:00:14 <oranod> o/
18:00:14 <oranod> hello hello
18:00:14 <felixfontein> The ping list is stored at https://kutt.it/meeting-people. Feel free to add or remove yourself.
18:00:14 <gotmax23> oops
18:00:17 <felixfontein> #info Agenda: https://github.com/ansible/community/issues/679 / Topics: https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics
18:00:20 <felixfontein> #chair gotmax23 oranod
18:00:20 <zodbot> Current chairs: felixfontein gotmax23 oranod
18:00:35 <gotmax23> .hi
18:00:36 <zodbot> gotmax23: gotmax23 'Maxwell G' <maxwell@gtmx.me>
18:01:04 <gotmax23> #chair gotmax
18:01:04 <zodbot> Current chairs: felixfontein gotmax gotmax23 oranod
18:01:36 <cybette_> o/
18:02:03 <felixfontein> #chair cybette_
18:02:03 <zodbot> Current chairs: cybette_ felixfontein gotmax gotmax23 oranod
18:02:08 <gotmax> We have some new discussion topics which is good I guess :)
18:02:49 <felixfontein> well, it's always nicer when problems have already been resolved and no further discussion is needed... ;)
18:02:51 <maxamillion> .hello2
18:02:52 <zodbot> maxamillion: maxamillion 'Adam Miller' <maxamillion@gmail.com>
18:03:07 <felixfontein> #chair maxamillion
18:03:07 <zodbot> Current chairs: cybette_ felixfontein gotmax gotmax23 maxamillion oranod
18:03:53 <felixfontein> so which topics in particular do folks want to discuss today?
18:04:35 <gotmax> I'm partial to my own topic I opened about docs (#240), but if anyone else has something feel free to go ahead :)
18:04:48 <felixfontein> I'd like to quickly start with #239
18:04:59 <gotmax> 👍
18:05:31 <felixfontein> #topic Move the dates of Ansible Community Package 7.7.0 and 8.1.0 to 2023/06/20 (or 2023/06/22)
18:05:36 <felixfontein> #info Discussion: https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/239
18:06:03 <gotmax> I'm +1 to this
18:06:23 <felixfontein> ansible-core 2.15.1 happens to be released a week later than we assumed in the Ansible 8 roadmap, so there's the proposal to move the 8.1.0 release one week later as well, so it's after the ansible-core 2.15.1 release
18:06:33 <gotmax> Should we informally vote in the meeting?
18:06:48 <felixfontein> so far nobody was against this, so let's keep this short - if nobody here has any objections, then we stop talking about it and go to the next topic ;)
18:07:28 <acozine> o/
18:07:30 <cybette_> in addition to the 8.1.0 release date move, I believe anwesha is proposing to move it to June 22 as she can't make the June 20 release date
18:07:43 <felixfontein> #chair acozine
18:07:43 <zodbot> Current chairs: acozine cybette_ felixfontein gotmax gotmax23 maxamillion oranod
18:08:04 <gotmax> alright
18:08:11 <anwesha[m]> + 1 cybette
18:08:17 <felixfontein> I think that's fine as well, since if the RM cannot do the proposed day, what can we do? :)
18:08:20 <felixfontein> there's no magic ;)
18:08:36 <Leo[m]> hi again all!
18:08:41 <felixfontein> #chair Leo[m]
18:08:41 <zodbot> Current chairs: Leo[m] acozine cybette_ felixfontein gotmax gotmax23 maxamillion oranod
18:09:00 <felixfontein> #chair anwesha[m]
18:09:00 <zodbot> Current chairs: Leo[m] acozine anwesha[m] cybette_ felixfontein gotmax gotmax23 maxamillion oranod
18:09:01 <anwesha[m]> I am stuck at a train and and there is stuff happening, so got stuck.
18:09:14 <felixfontein> good luck!
18:09:20 <Leo[m]> the ping with the [m] dind't work :D
18:09:47 <felixfontein> Leo[m]: maybe it only works if it's the first word in the line?
18:10:01 <felixfontein> bridges are complicated ;)
18:10:16 <gotmax> You can try changing it to plain `leo`
18:10:23 <gotmax> not sure
18:10:56 <Leo[m]> I will try it out later, no worries! ty
18:11:00 <felixfontein> "mariolenz[m]" also wasn't translated by the bridge
18:11:35 <samccann> o/
18:11:45 <felixfontein> ok, since nobody seems to object to https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/239, I assume everyone's happy!
18:11:48 <felixfontein> #chair samccann
18:11:48 <zodbot> Current chairs: Leo[m] acozine anwesha[m] cybette_ felixfontein gotmax gotmax23 maxamillion oranod samccann
18:12:02 <felixfontein> #topic Move Ansible Community docs into the ansible-community org
18:12:09 <felixfontein> #info Discussion: https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/240
18:12:21 <felixfontein> I'm not sure whether this topic belongs here or rather to the DaWGs meeting in #ansible-docs...
18:12:34 <acozine> oh, it has been brought up in the DaWGs meeting
18:12:43 <felixfontein> I missed the one yesterday...
18:12:56 <felixfontein> (and obviously didn't read the log :) )
18:13:01 <acozine> but it deserves a wider audience
18:13:13 <felixfontein> can someone sum up what was discussed yesterday?
18:13:43 <gotmax> I was specifically talking about the SC policy docs, but I guess the wider discussion that oranod brought up is also relevant to #ansible-docs
18:15:00 <remindbot[m]> @cybette:ansible.im cyb-clock chimes every 15 minutes during the community meeting
18:16:07 <samccann> yesterday's summary - nobody screamed :-)  Which is good. It's an idea that caused much wailing and gnashing of teeth a few years back
18:17:15 <felixfontein> I guess with community taking control over ansible.com (which seems to be the medium- or long-term plan) this should be working out well
18:18:01 <acozine> two main goals: 1. allow community members to publish the docs about the community and 2. get the docs about the community out of the version switcher, since the only thing that matters for  docs about the community is what we're doing today
18:18:39 <felixfontein> I somehow have the feeling that this has been in the thoughts for a long time already
18:18:51 <acozine> we're hoping to find a solution where the docs can live outside of ansible/ansible but still be published to the docs.a.c/ansible/community URL
18:19:04 <felixfontein> (but I can never remember what's the current state of it ;) )
18:20:26 <bcoca> dont the towerdocs work 'kindof 'that way, living in their own repo
18:20:27 <oranod> I responded to gotmax 's topic with a hackMD that proposes a solution to what acozine describes. I wanted to bring it up for consideration so we don't break out a subsection of the community docs then do another lift and shift of content to another repo.
18:20:27 <acozine> yeah, we've been talking about it and looking for a solution for a long time
18:20:28 <bcoca> ?
18:21:04 <bcoca> also separataion between versioned and non versioned content
18:21:16 <bcoca> not sure if we should also sep core/community
18:21:19 <gotmax> I skimmed oranod's proposal at 7:00 am so I need to go and read it again :)
18:22:02 <acozine> yeah, the tower docs kinda work that way, but their URLs are separate at a higher level - docs.a.c/tower
18:22:36 <felixfontein> I guess the hard part is where does the build process running, and what can it access?
18:22:43 <felixfontein> s/does/is/
18:22:58 <acozine> ideally we'd have docs.a.c/ansible and include content from both ansible/ansible and from whichever community repo hosts the docs about the community
18:23:24 <gotmax23> I skimmed oranod's proposal at 7:00 am so I need to go and read it again :). I understand that this places a lot of reliance on readthedocs?
18:23:25 <samccann> i think the underlying goal is the build process becomes out in the open so more than me and don can trigger it etc etc
18:23:33 <oranod> I think we could have a repo with the package docs and then build on top of a specific ref from ansible/ansible
18:24:37 <oranod> that's what started all this for me at least, trying to open up the package docs build and giving more ownership of docs.ansible.com to the community
18:25:05 <gotmax23> oranod: Yeah, I was envisioning something like that when I opened the ticket. I think that's workable.
18:25:49 <oranod> I wish I had something a bit more solid to present on all this right now but it's in the works so I wanted to bring it up early for consideration to avoid breaking things out and creating yet more fragmentation
18:27:41 <samccann> Can folks add to the community-topic a list of files/pages they feel should be separate from ansible/ansible?
18:28:34 <gotmax23> I listed Collection Requirements and Ansible Roadmap in the issue body. I'll think if there's thing else.
18:28:47 <gotmax23> Maybe the distribution installation instructions should move out also?
18:28:54 <gotmax23> They're specifically about the community package.
18:29:20 <gotmax23> That's https://docs.ansible.com/ansible/latest/installation_guide/installation_distros.html
18:30:01 <remindbot[m]> @cybette:ansible.im cyb-clock chimes every 15 minutes during the community meeting
18:30:15 <felixfontein> hmm, moving the distribution installation instructions out could be a good idea to avoid at least some of the problems we had with these docs in the past :)
18:30:20 <samccann> yeah that's the level of detail we probably want to think about. And whether we really want to separate things out like that. For example, separating out the core install from the package install means a person landing on one or the other page may not even realize there's another option
18:31:51 <Leo[m]> gotmax23: +1 and it should probably be modified to mention "Ansible community" or "Ansible project", to make it clear
18:32:10 <samccann> We've sort of standardized on calling it the Ansible package (vs ansible-core)
18:32:25 <samccann> it's a difficult beastie
18:32:46 <felixfontein> sometimes folks call it 'Ansible community package' - I wonder whether that's better (or worse)
18:33:02 <felixfontein> at least then it's clear that this isn't something sold by RH ;)
18:33:10 <gotmax23> That's what I always call it
18:33:23 <Leo[m]> samccann: Ansible package is confusing in terms of AAP
18:33:40 <Leo[m]> and we are kind of calling it in so many ways, even inside RH
18:34:02 <samccann> yeah the problem is everything is called ...ansible
18:34:07 <gotmax23> Yeah, the fact that we kept the ansible name after the core split has led to a lot of confusion :(
18:34:07 <felixfontein> :)
18:34:09 <Leo[m]> project is the most common definition for most upstream packages
18:34:19 <felixfontein> ansible, the breakfast cereal!
18:34:34 <samccann> but the Ansible project IS ansible/ansible in github... which is ansible-core
18:34:41 <samccann> AHAHA Ansible Donuts!
18:34:57 * gotmax23 worries this is going to turn into 10 minutes of bikeshedding :)
18:35:08 <felixfontein> hehe
18:35:12 * Leo[m] goes look what bikeshedding is
18:35:22 <felixfontein> you're an optimist if you think it's just 10 minutes ;)
18:35:25 <cybette_> Ansible potpourri
18:35:45 <felixfontein> Leo[m]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bikeshedding
18:36:10 <samccann> heh valid point. We can debate what to call things later etc... what do we want to talk about wrt the overall strategy of peeling some of the docs out of ansible/ansible?
18:36:42 <gotmax23> I'm a bit weary about the whole readthedocs thing
18:36:46 <felixfontein> probably step 1 is getting a build process running that compiles some repo from gh.com/ansible-community/ to somewhere on docs.ansible.com/
18:36:47 <samccann> and what are the "do not touch' items? Like docs.ansible.com/ansible must stay the same or something
18:36:57 <gotmax23> I don't know that I want to require every package in the ecosystem to have to use that
18:37:02 <gotmax23> It has some limitations
18:37:39 <samccann> gotmax23: that sounds like a related discussion (RTD strategy). Is it worth starting a separate community topic on that?
18:37:56 <gotmax23> I do think it's a good idea to suggest using one of those common themes
18:38:04 <gotmax23> samccann: Can you elaborate :)?
18:38:14 <felixfontein> one problem with RTD is that likely all the redirects we have for docs.ansible.com/ansible/xxx/ will no longer work
18:38:16 <gotmax23> what do you mean by RTD strategy?
18:38:52 <samccann> read the docs and requiring/pushing all ansible projects to use it. That seems tangential to pulling docs out of ansible/ansible (some docs)
18:39:02 <samccann> maybe it's just the way i'm viewing things.. .dunno
18:39:13 <felixfontein> who does own/control readthedocs btw?
18:39:24 <gotmax23> I was responding to Don Naro's proposal posted in the original issue.
18:39:38 <gotmax23> If we want to split out part of the discussion, I guess that's okay
18:39:40 <oranod> felixfontein: hopefully we wouldn't need to touch those particular redirects
18:40:09 <felixfontein> oranod: then you cannot change the DNS for docs.ansible.com to point to RTD
18:40:24 <oranod> my idea for the "ecosystem" on RTD is more about all the Ansible projects that are already hosted on RTD and are causing a lot of fragmentation
18:40:40 <acozine> I think each repo owner controls that repo's RTD presence
18:41:22 <oranod> felixfontein: no, but I don't think we'd want to do that.
18:41:29 <felixfontein> acozine: I mean control as in: who controls the whole service (and can turn of, change, ... random things when they want to)
18:41:45 <acozine> felixfontein: I'm not sure, but not us
18:41:56 <oranod> there's actually quite a great community behind read the docs
18:41:56 <felixfontein> oranod: ah, I now see, I'm still scrolling throught hat proposal
18:42:54 <felixfontein> I eventually found https://about.readthedocs.com/company/, but it was not easy to find that IMO
18:42:55 <acozine> yes, RTD is a great community, and it is a wonderful home for many projects that would otherwise not have a place to publish their documentation
18:43:27 <gotmax23> So then how would DNS for docs.ansible.com be set up?
18:43:49 <felixfontein> gotmax23: the propsal says to keep docs.ansible.com as-is, and use ecosystem.ansible.com as a RTD subdomain
18:44:12 <acozine> Don Naro: where is your RTD proposal? I can't find a link
18:44:13 <gotmax23> Ah, I see
18:44:31 <felixfontein> https://hackmd.io/Ejh1G6hjSO2DFiJXyUpUsw?both#Ansible-ecosystem-on-Read-The-Docs
18:44:34 <felixfontein> acozine: ^
18:44:35 <oranod> I'd like to bring that to this group soon for wider discussion actually. I don't have all the answers for the DNS side of things
18:44:44 <oranod> thanks felixfontein
18:45:00 <remindbot[m]> @cybette:ansible.im cyb-clock chimes every 15 minutes during the community meeting
18:45:08 <cybette_> i look forward to having the forum where we can easily find (and link to) such proposals and discussions :)
18:45:17 <felixfontein> cybette_: +1!
18:45:24 <acozine> what problem is the move to RTD design to solve?
18:45:27 <felixfontein> I'm looking forward to the forum for other reasons as well...
18:45:46 <felixfontein> like being able to move support requests to the correct place, when they end up in community-topics or the ansible-devel mailing list...
18:46:36 <gotmax23> I wonder if we can block non contributors from creating community-topics Github Discussions that aren't for votes
18:46:54 <gotmax23> We should make it clearer that it's not a support forum
18:47:13 <Leo[m]> gotmax23: with the forums, discussions should be in the forum I think. and the polls allow for better voting/integration there
18:47:33 <oranod> acozine: well it's only a proposal now but partially to de-frag all the project docs that are scattered over RTD. also ultimately to provide consistency with sphinx and mkdocs themes. also we can get search across all the subprojects.
18:47:38 <gotmax23> Right, but I was more so talking about the current system
18:47:49 <felixfontein> gotmax23: I'm not sure it's really possible... that's why I'm waiting for the forum, that will have better rights management I guess :)
18:48:14 <samccann> correct me if I'm wrong Don Naro but if we bring most docs into one RTD ..erm.. domain? then we can have a site search over all of them?
18:48:26 <Leo[m]> gotmax23: do you mean changing something before the forum is available?
18:48:32 <gotmax23> Yes
18:48:56 <Leo[m]> maybe not worth the effort right now with the forum so close in sight 🎉
18:49:00 <felixfontein> we can talk about that later if you want, should we finish the current topic ifrst?
18:49:02 <gotmax23> For example, we could delete every topic from https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/discussions/categories except the last two about votes
18:49:59 <gotmax23> Also, it's possible to label a category as Announcement so only members can create new Discussions but anyone can reply
18:50:24 <oranod> samccann: yeah. rtd use elastic search under the hood, of which I'm a big fan. but it's not perfect. eg. doesn't index html from custom builds. their docs say mkdocs don't work with search but I've seen some results from the lint project so not sure if that's still accurate.
18:50:29 <acozine> so is this a fair paraphrase: "some ansible-related projects have docs on RTD today, they don't want to change, so instead of making them publish to docs.a.c we should publish our stuff to RTD"?
18:51:02 <oranod> "our stuff"?
18:51:15 <acozine> I'll read the whole proposal carefully when I have a chance
18:51:24 <acozine> heh, sorry, old habit
18:51:44 <felixfontein> :)
18:51:48 <acozine> "out stuff" == core docs, module docs, and other stuff that's currently on docs.a.c
18:52:32 <felixfontein> we need some way of ecosystem projects to publish their docs on docs.ansible.com, so we would need some system similar to RTD anyway
18:52:41 <felixfontein> I guess using RTD is the easiest way to achieve that
18:53:10 <oranod> yeah, exactly. saved me a whole bunch of typing. we either use something like RTD or build something like RTD.
18:53:19 <acozine> yeah, I'm trying to figure out if the appeal of RTD is "the community is largely there already", or if it's more about features, or something else entirely
18:53:22 <samccann> yeah I hadn't been thinking about it that way, but if it were open/easier to publish to docs.ansible.com, would that change the discussion... or is RTD just 'that much better' as a publishing platform etc that it's a more future-proof directoin
18:54:04 <felixfontein> the main advantage of RTD are a) that they already do what we would need to provide, and b) we don't have to implement and maintain our own solution
18:54:14 <acozine> I absolutely agree that all the docs for the Ansible ecosystem should be published somewhere together
18:54:23 <felixfontein> there might be other solutions than RTD providing similar service, but I guess RTD is the most known one
18:54:35 <felixfontein> (you could say, the Microsoft Windows of the docs publishing platforms :D )
18:54:41 <gotmax23> samccann: I'd be open to allowing publishing to docs.ansible.com. but I'm not sure how perms would work
18:55:05 <samccann> well even don and I don't currently controll the server that hosts docs.ansible.com
18:57:01 <Leo[m]> felixfontein: afaik, RTD is an open source project, which also do hosting/saas, but the source is available.
18:57:25 <Leo[m]> or I was misled all this time? :D
18:57:54 <felixfontein> Leo[m]: I have no idea, I never really looked into what RTD really is and how it works
18:58:01 <felixfontein> (I also haven't used it for projects yet)
18:58:09 <Leo[m]> RTD with be more like Matrix and Discourse in that regards, they are a platform,a s well as code
18:58:16 <Leo[m]> *would
18:58:22 <cybette_> Leo: I think the analogy is less to do with whether it's open source and more about its popularity :)
18:58:34 <felixfontein> I guess we could operate our own server(s) then, but that comes with costs...
18:58:44 <felixfontein> (both money and personell costs)
18:59:10 <oranod> the build process for those "package docs" is a memory hog. it spends loads of time banging against compiled regex and building those intersphinx links. unfortunately we can't really put that on RTD due to costs.
18:59:36 <Leo[m]> cybette_: I see, I was thinking maybe the worry was the lock-in, and as they are an open source project, we don't have to worry about that, even if we use their platform for hosting
19:00:12 <felixfontein> oranod: at least not without rebuilding/rethinking the whole build process, which is a lot of work
19:00:25 <felixfontein> so no RTD for docs.ansible.com/ansible/xxx/ in the near future
19:00:31 <Leo[m]> (which by the way, I think it's the best path... using OSS companies providing their project as a service is a great way to support them and get the best service)
19:01:19 <gotmax23> Open Source SAAS != No lock in unfortunately
19:01:30 <oranod> it's a lot of work but I think we can do it in an open, secure way
19:02:20 <oranod> when I say open I do mean we would create some kind of build/deploy pipeline that the community could have access to
19:02:36 <acozine> sorry, folks, i have to run to my next meeting
19:02:45 <samccann> thanks acozine !
19:02:48 <felixfontein> actually it's time to finish anyway :)
19:02:52 <acozine> thanks for the link to that hackMD, I'll read it when I get a chance
19:02:58 <felixfontein> any last words before I close the meeting?
19:03:04 <oranod> thanks acozine
19:03:09 <acozine> I'm traveling again next week, will probably miss this meeting
19:03:14 <acozine> but see you in 2 weeks!
19:03:48 <felixfontein> save traveling acozine!
19:03:54 <felixfontein> #endmeeting