19:00:47 #startmeeting Ansible Diversity Working Group | Agenda: https://github.com/ansible/community/issues/577 19:00:47 Meeting started Thu Apr 1 19:00:47 2021 UTC. 19:00:47 This meeting is logged and archived in a public location. 19:00:47 The chair is jillr. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 19:00:47 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 19:00:47 The meeting name has been set to 'ansible_diversity_working_group_|_agenda:_https://github.com/ansible/community/issues/577' 19:00:59 o/ 19:01:03 o/ 19:01:05 #chair cybette felixfontein misc 19:01:05 Current chairs: cybette felixfontein jillr misc 19:01:22 o/ 19:01:52 #info we've provided a list of names to Robyn for the folks who want to attend the Code of Conduct workshop 19:01:56 #chair tadeboro 19:01:56 Current chairs: cybette felixfontein jillr misc tadeboro 19:02:26 #topic open floor 19:02:29 riecatnor: meeting :p 19:02:59 Hi jillr! I am Marie Nordin, I am the FCAIC at Fedora :) 19:03:10 Hi riecatnor! 19:03:13 Misc reached out by email to ask if I could join in a meeting, and here I am 19:03:18 #chair riecatnor 19:03:18 Current chairs: cybette felixfontein jillr misc riecatnor tadeboro 19:03:42 #topic Fedora / Ansible D&I collaboration 19:03:46 I've discussed with Robyn and we propose that those in Red Hat make use of the training benefits we have to pay for it, and if that doesn't work out, we (Ansible community team) can cover the cost 19:03:54 hello all! 19:03:59 we're also happy to cover the cost for community members (non red hatters) 19:04:16 hi riecatnor mattdm ! 19:04:28 Ansible's D&I community is still fairly new, and misc has shared with us a lot of the ideas and work that the Fedora community has been doing. we thought we could learn a lot from y'alls experiences 19:04:34 Someone needs to ask: FCAIC stads for ... 19:04:37 #chair mattdm 19:04:37 Current chairs: cybette felixfontein jillr mattdm misc riecatnor tadeboro 19:04:42 Fedora Community Action and Impact Coordinator 19:04:45 community-smithed 19:05:05 pronounced f-cake :) 19:05:16 I'm very interested in cake :) 19:05:21 That last one I can remember ;) 19:05:28 It's a long story, but it's stuck :) 19:05:33 riecatnor: I think you need your own blog called "f-cake news" 19:05:51 pictures of cupcakes, only. 19:05:52 let's please not assign riecatnor any more work! 19:06:56 We are happy to field any questions on D&I and CoC topics, and do our best to answer 19:07:07 * jillr recalls all the things we wanted to ask the fedora folks.. 19:07:36 We're planning to send several people to the Otter Tech CoC workshop in the near future, I understand some of y'all have already done that? 19:08:13 Yes, we found it very useful. We ended up being some of the more experienced folks there. Buckle in tho, it is quite long 19:08:58 https://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/sresults/?group_id=ansible-diversity&type=channel for the meeting where we discussed "bring fedora folks" 19:09:17 Yeah, it was a good workshop. 19:09:28 Definitely needed longer breaks. 19:09:34 It is focused on taking incident reports from reporters, and talking to reported people. 19:09:43 in addition to training folks who will be responding directly, we're also going to need to create some guidelines for Ansible staff on how to refer incidents to the new response team, 19:09:56 right now any Ansible staff can and do handle things they see ad-hoc, 19:10:17 do you think the workshop covers material necessary to do that, or should we also plan to find more support for that aspect? 19:10:26 we use a private pagure repo to take incidents, and if we get them by IRC/verbally, one of us will transpose that into the repo 19:10:32 I think there's something to be said for having a "look, not even considering coc, we're going to moderate things" 19:10:56 The workshop does not address CoC/guidelines 19:11:00 The workshop is very specifically about responding to incidents, both in taking reports and talking to reported people. 19:12:02 gotcha, so we might need some other assistance to come up with "hey everyone who's become used to just dealing with things, this is what you have to do now going forward" 19:12:05 I am looking into CoC consultants for some Fedora things we need assistance with, happy to provide a review 19:12:20 riecatnor: oh that would be great, thanks 19:14:17 yes :) 19:14:22 sorry I'm trying to check logs for other topics and I might be having internet issues, anyone else have topics we wanted to ask the Fedora folks? 19:15:01 jillr, I could give a little overview of what we have in place and what we are working on 19:15:09 +1 thanks 19:15:14 +1 19:15:49 We currently have a CoC in place. https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ 19:16:06 the only other question is 19:21:34 if fedora is further along this D&I path, are there steps/lessons we can learn and implement here? 19:16:16 It is just "okay" in our opinion. There has been a new CoC in the works for some time, starting with my predecessor Bex 19:16:28 and I think if Fedora had a Root Cause Analysis for incident going through the roof 19:17:02 The CoC has been approved by both legal and the Fedora Council. Now we are working on supporting documents. 19:17:08 RH Legal* 19:17:15 I think there are three primary causes to increased CoC activity 19:17:22 1. Pandemic has everyone stressed out. 19:17:36 2. Enforcing the CoC seriously has people actually using it. 19:18:01 3. Society at large is in the midst of so much culture war stuff that we're caught up in it 19:18:48 Agreed to all of that 19:19:21 3 really can't be understated, I've been surpised we haven't seen more of it here in light of what I've seen in other places tbh 19:19:44 Beyond the supporting documents, we are looking at implementing a committee (currently is just Matthew and I). And we are also looking at creating moderator guidelines to use across the various chat spaces Fedora exists within 19:19:55 do you think there's any relation to how much D&I-related work you do? we haven't yet done a whole ton of events or changes yet 19:20:06 jillr, absolutely. 19:20:31 When the D&I team first started up we dealt with a couple folks, and we still get drive by misbehaviors 19:20:47 we've changed a lot of language in the project, but it seems to have mostly flown under the radar (somehow) for example 19:21:45 I have a theory that being a woman, being in the community for 8 years, folks are really comfortable telling me things.. smaller things too 19:22:10 Shockingly, it turns out to be useful to have diversity in leadership! 19:22:25 who would have thought! :D 19:22:39 does Fedora have any idea of what the demographics of the community are? 19:23:00 I was about to say "survey"... 19:23:01 this is a tough one. we don't really want to touch PII 19:23:03 we do not in ansible, beyond personal observations and guesses, but I suspect we are a fairly homogenous community. 19:23:28 it would be lovely info to have, but a ton of red tape around handling that data. 19:23:35 riecatnor: same, so we're not sure how to measure progress 19:23:43 I think ansible is different from Fedora in that ansible has likely more people here for their job 19:24:17 if we go back to in-person events, we can sort of see who shows up to Contributor Summit and AnisbleFest, but that's unreliable data that depends on the privelege of travel 19:25:23 jillr, I can talk a bit about the D&I team. 19:25:59 the d&i team started up about 6-7 years ago.. first idea was to bring a D&I rep to council in general, and there was a lot of interest. 19:26:32 So the team started up. We did some D&I panels, some sessions at our yearly conferences (unconscious bias, imposter syndrome), and then started up Fedora Womens Day 19:26:49 I may get some general idea from shipping attendee swag to different geography, plus regular/fitted tee selection etc., but again, PII 19:27:02 That grew over the course of 3 years from a few events, to 20+ FWD's globally with local organizers 19:27:35 Meanwhile, the folks on the team did not focus on sustainability and this kind of work is tiring 19:28:21 Eventually, either burnout or life took them away to some degree or another. This is about when I began as FCAIC, not something I could tackle right away, tbh. What I did do was turn FWD virtual for 2020, and that was a very successful event 19:29:19 I have taken over leading the D&I team meetings so that they minimally have some regularity in that and a feeling of connection. I organized a meetup for the team (a couple of weekends ago actually), to try to understand who is interested right now, and what they want to be working on 19:29:40 The biggest outcome from the meetup was we agreed to move Fedora Womens Day to Fedora Week of Diversity 19:29:59 https://hackmd.io/3HPn5xreRcCMbD8Mgd7c2A?view 19:31:06 The biggest pain point (besides the sustainability of the team) is that the team feels we don't reach enough of the more coding focused parts of our community. aka, we feel we are preaching to the choir 19:32:15 Plenty of ups and downs, but that is where it is at now! 19:33:51 Lesson to learn: make sure to onboard new folks at a steady-ish rate or people will get burnt out. Especially on CoC, but also D&I work in general 19:34:44 do Fedora working groups/teams have a formal membership structure? like, how do you tell who is part of the D&I team to ensure this^? 19:34:45 this is great, thanks for sharing. 19:34:54 and yes, thanks very mich for sharing! 19:35:11 The folks who were attracted to this team are also dreamers & idealists :) just the way we love them.. thoooo this leads to indecision. A ton of bike shedding and not many decisions being made. In fact, these decisions are extra *hard* to make because the topics are so sensitive. 19:35:34 We do have a team membership in fedora accounts 19:36:04 To add on to the mindset, they wanted to do things *perfectly*- which is often the enemy of progress 19:36:30 I used the phrase "messy necessary work" last week and I think it's my new default way to refer to D&I/DEI work. :) 19:36:40 having a decision making process would be helpful 19:36:55 oof, jillr, feeling called out 19:37:04 We have a mix of formal and informal teams 19:37:08 last week was a whole lot of feels 19:37:40 yes, we had our own fallout from that in fedora as well. extra ~fun~ 19:37:44 each team basically sets their own rules for membership. some are 'show up and do something and you're one of us!' and others are more formal 19:38:24 mattdm: gotcha. Ansible overall is very informal groups now 19:38:44 https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/diversity-inclusion/get-involved/ 19:39:33 we've got https://github.com/ansible/community/wiki/Diversity 19:39:38 There's definitely advantages to informal. In other situations, more formal structure helps people feel empowered 19:39:59 I was also thinking I can share the CoC draft & supporting docs 19:40:00 it would be worth having a page off our main docs though 19:40:14 they are not yet public, tho :) 19:40:54 urf, sorry, missed most of the meeting 19:40:59 we do have a CoC, which I assume either came about pre-acquisition or else has been developed with RH Legal since? https://docs.ansible.com/ansible/latest/community/code_of_conduct.html 19:41:00 * samccann does frantic scrollback read 19:41:04 #chair samccann 19:41:04 Current chairs: cybette felixfontein jillr mattdm misc riecatnor samccann tadeboro 19:42:07 omg it's like the boy scout oath 19:42:29 I mean, different, but in structure :) 19:43:12 the ansible CoC might have been done the RH way, aka, do it first, then figure if we should had involved someone 19:43:38 (like for DNS, using SaaS, setting server, finding a name for a project , etc, etc) 19:44:01 I must admit I was pleasantly surprised when the Ansible D&I team discussed various CoCs in the context of Ansible collections. Ansible D&I members look like pragmatic perfectionists. Which is probably the best kind of perfectionist out there ;) 19:44:44 the perfect kind of perfectionist? ;) 19:44:52 mattdm: there's an Ansible motto that I think is on the walls in the Durham office, maybe? "Be kind, be open, be accountable" 19:45:48 we're more girl scouts though, cause girl scouts permit LGBTQ kids to join ;) 19:46:02 yes. +1 girl scouts. 19:46:13 I am sad that the ansible motto is not a yaml list 19:46:25 LOL 19:46:26 "Be kind, be accountable, be open, be Ansible" 19:46:32 I like that the "considerate" part isn't just "be nice" but "consider how your actions affect others". 19:46:59 And that the "kind" part goes into specifics. 19:47:25 https://photos.app.goo.gl/es6XZHizmuGdK7tv5 19:47:34 Inquisitive is a weird place to put "don't post multiple lines of code into irc", but okay. 19:47:45 Sorry, livetweeting your coc at you :) 19:48:03 cybette: that's a great poster. 19:48:19 hehe, better here than on twitter, unless you want to deal with your mentions for that :) 19:48:31 lol 19:49:22 The anti-harassment policy part is great. 19:49:57 we have a survey going out... "soon" (I'm behind on this work) to meetup organizers to check in and see how familiar/comfortable they are with their part in CoC enforcement