18:00:09 <mattdm> #startmeeting Board (2014-11-17)
18:00:09 <zodbot> Meeting started Mon Nov 17 18:00:09 2014 UTC.  The chair is mattdm. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
18:00:09 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
18:00:13 <mattdm> #meetingname board
18:00:13 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'board'
18:00:39 <mattdm> #topic Informal chat with fedora council candidates
18:00:45 <mattdm> if anyone is around....
18:01:02 <mattdm> we didn't, particularly, go out of our way to advertise this
18:01:08 <gholms> :(
18:01:38 <mattdm> I'm working on getting the election interviews on the magazine now -- they came out really well
18:02:38 * randomuser is around, using phone IRC, looking for wifi
18:02:58 <mattdm> #chair gholms
18:02:58 <zodbot> Current chairs: gholms mattdm
18:03:00 <mattdm> hi randomuser!
18:03:16 * jreznik is here too :) hey all
18:03:24 <mattdm> hi jreznik!
18:03:58 <jreznik> my mini birthday party is over, so back to serious work :)
18:04:00 <number80> heya
18:04:14 <number80> jreznik: your b-day ?
18:04:44 <mattdm> #chair number80
18:04:44 <zodbot> Current chairs: gholms mattdm number80
18:05:08 <mattdm> jreznik does voting open at 00:00 UTC (eg in about 6 hours?)
18:05:12 <jreznik> number80: next Monday but the only day eveyrone had a free time
18:05:24 <number80> ok :)
18:05:37 <jreznik> mattdm: yep, in 6 hours
18:05:39 <mattdm> also happy birthday :)
18:05:45 <jreznik> thanks :)
18:06:16 <randomuser> jreznik's birthday is a national holiday in cz - happy birthday!
18:06:40 <mattdm> jreznik: what's the link to vote?
18:07:32 * jwb is here
18:07:44 <mattdm> #chair jwb
18:07:44 <zodbot> Current chairs: gholms jwb mattdm number80
18:08:11 <number80> misc: I know you're here
18:08:21 <inode0> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/voting is the normal link to vote
18:08:22 <jreznik> #link https://admin.fedoraproject.org/voting
18:08:32 <mattdm> jreznik thanks.
18:09:09 <mattdm> so, is it just current board members and prospective council members here?
18:09:19 <mattdm> or do we have an audience?
18:09:37 <number80> any fedoristas could speak up :)
18:09:46 <randomuser> there's almost always an audience, they just don't speak up :P
18:09:59 <jreznik> advertise it on the other channels?
18:10:04 <mattdm> jreznik: sure
18:12:32 <mattdm> in absense of other questions I'm going to continue with a bit of administrivia
18:12:44 <mattdm> cla_done is accomplished by checking a box in FAS, right?
18:13:42 <randomuser> mattdm, been a while... at least, if you log in to FAS, it is in your TODO
18:14:02 <mattdm> I'm writing the header for the interviews. Wondering how much detail to put there.
18:14:05 <mattdm> Probably not very much.
18:14:17 <mattdm> So, anyway. :)
18:14:24 * jreznik copied anycla from other elections
18:14:25 <mattdm> Anyone want to talk about Firefox? :)
18:14:29 <gholms> Certainly not if you're space-constrained
18:14:37 <randomuser> well, if someone is just now getting a FAS account and doing the CLA, they probably don't have time to get a +1 group for eligibility anyway
18:14:38 <gholms> Ahhh, firefox.
18:14:42 <mattdm> gholms more... attention-span constrained
18:14:54 <jreznik> randomuser: we are not cla+1
18:14:55 <mattdm> randomuser this election is just cla_done, not +1, I think
18:15:00 <randomuser> ahhh. ok
18:16:02 <randomuser> we already set the default homepage; setting the default newtab to the same or to previous tabs would be trivial
18:16:21 <randomuser> ...not that anyone thinks it is a technical problem
18:16:45 <gholms> Is there precedence for this already?
18:18:07 <gholms> Does stuff like gnome-software already request things from non-fedora destinations when they first run, for instance?
18:18:15 <randomuser> heh
18:18:21 * gholms is honestly wondering, has no idea
18:18:36 <randomuser> oh - I wasn't going to bring it up, but yes
18:18:50 <mattdm> randomuser: the default homepage in f21 was changed to newtab -- based on our discussion I asked for it to be put back but it hasn't been yet
18:18:53 <mattdm> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1157682
18:18:56 <randomuser> gnome-software has webapps for a handful of third party things
18:19:19 <mattdm> yeah, but those webapps are actually bundled into a package we ship
18:19:35 <randomuser> gholms, and iirc, all of the screenshots in appdata files are loaded from external resources
18:20:03 <randomuser> not exactly apropos, but there is *potential*, i suppose
18:20:15 <gholms> Yeah, it's specifically requesting stuff from third parties that I'm wondering about.
18:20:45 <mattdm> the gnome-software website selection is, as I understand it, not actually advertising. package maintainers simply selected some sites that they think desktop users will like to see as easily accessible
18:21:15 <gholms> That's awfully close to the definition of advertising.
18:21:20 <randomuser> yeah, I really wasn't going to bring it up
18:21:36 <mattdm> gholms well, except, there's no money from those sites. or agreement, even, I don't think
18:21:58 <gholms> If that's where we want to draw the line then I'd be okay with that.
18:22:21 <randomuser> no; it's a reduced chrome epiphany session with a dedicated user profile
18:22:24 <gholms> This is just something that we have to be very consistent with if we're going to make a ruling.
18:22:53 <mattdm> Remember when there was the big deal with Banshee and amazon affiliate links? Some other distributions changed those links to point to their own
18:22:54 <misc> number80: oops, yes
18:23:02 <mattdm> I think that we just left it
18:23:32 <randomuser> it seems most people don't especially object to advertising, it's the targeted nature of the advertising
18:23:46 <number80> yeah, banshee folks wanted that to be given to the GNOME foundation
18:23:55 <mattdm> That is, I don't think we removed that at all, so there are apps with profit-making advertisements in fedora and no one has to my knowledge raised it as an issue
18:23:56 <number80> we respected their choice
18:24:07 <mattdm> so this is similar; links which make money for mozilla
18:24:47 * gholms nods
18:24:54 <misc> well, the other issue is that some people do dislike the dependence on google for mozilla, so they try to do something about that, to divrsify their income
18:25:16 <misc> ( and they add already their share of heated discussion internally, i discussed with a guy there last week )
18:25:33 <mattdm> Right. So this leaves the contact-mozilla-for-what-to-show issue
18:26:37 <mattdm> to me, this seems basically indistinguishable from whether they had left https://start.mozilla.org/ as the default for new tabs and started running the ads there
18:26:40 <gholms> The fact that it's on the default new tab page, which is nearly impossible to avoid, worries me somewhat.  IIRC, banshee doesn't send info anywhere like that without explicit action.
18:26:55 <gholms> Oh yeah, that's true.
18:27:51 <randomuser> I'm mostly comfortable about this, as long as the type of data collected and the way it is used is unambiguous
18:28:12 <jwb> i think this is just going to be another trend we have to deal with as upstream mozilla tries to fund itself and branch out to other platforms.  they're going to do things that make them money and get them userbase on those platforms (and linux, but that seems to be a minor platform at the moment)
18:28:27 <randomuser> "minimal user data sanitized of personal information" is not an adequate elaboration for our users
18:28:29 <number80> I think we should just disable this by default
18:29:05 <misc> so i guess someone should contact them for clarification
18:29:07 <number80> mandatory advertisement is not something we should allow
18:29:33 <randomuser> number80, RFE: prompt for opt-in ?
18:29:51 <mattdm> I think it would be good to have relatively clear guidance here so we're not continually moving the goalposts
18:30:01 <mattdm> randomuser: as it currently is, it prompts for opt-out
18:30:03 <misc> prompt for opt-in is gonna be a bit ridiculous, like iphone activation with 20 screens :/
18:30:08 <number80> randomuser: could be an option, I'd like to fund Mozilla but we ought to respect end-users privacy
18:30:39 <mattdm> from https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/privacy/firefox/, firefox already does a number of things that are not much different
18:30:41 <mattdm> for example:
18:30:46 <mattdm> To help display relevant snippets, Firefox sends Mozilla a monthly request to look up your location at a country level using your IP address. We then send that country level information back to Firefox, where it's stored locally. Firefox will then choose snippets to show you based on the locally stored country information.
18:30:48 * gholms hasn't seen that prompt before
18:30:52 <number80> Besides, disabling this option is a better choice than putting icecat by default as we keep promoting the firefox brand
18:31:03 <mattdm> gholms try a new profile with the new version
18:31:18 <randomuser> misc, nah, one sentence on top of the previously visited sites grid, "Do you want to help fund Mozilla by allowing curated links to appear on the new tabs page?"
18:31:36 <misc> randomuser: wikipedia still :) ?
18:31:38 <misc> style
18:32:17 <randomuser> yeah, that as a guideline leaves a lot of room to be distasteful
18:32:36 <jwb> number80, there's the question of how much we can disable and still use the firefox brand though
18:32:54 <misc> I guess also any kind of popup should be discusse with mozilla, they did think about it, and they have designers thinking about that
18:32:56 <number80> jwb: yes
18:33:17 * randomuser starts a new firefox profile to see the opt-out firsthand
18:33:18 <number80> misc: they don't have the same constraint as us
18:33:50 <number80> when you install fedora workstation, you get firefox as default browser, you don't have a choice
18:33:51 <misc> number80: ie, they do not have the constraint of keeping the trust of their users ?
18:33:53 <gholms> number80: Is it something one can explain to them, at least?
18:34:01 <mattdm> tried to screenshot the popup but the dialog goes away for me :)
18:34:15 <randomuser> oh, it's on with my normal profile, the suggests just aren't important enough to show up
18:34:17 <number80> misc: I trust Mozilla but some of our users don't want to see any advertisements
18:34:31 <randomuser> mattdm, `firefox -p --no-remote`
18:34:32 <number80> if Firefox was not the default browser, I wouldn't care
18:34:48 <mattdm> randomuser: no i mean while i'm trying to take the screenshot
18:34:53 <randomuser> oh, gotcha
18:35:03 <mattdm> but in any case, it is exactly what you see when you click the "what is this page" link
18:35:27 <mattdm> So, my main concern here is a blend of branding
18:35:41 <mattdm> I don't have a big issue with Firefox having sponsored links
18:35:49 <mattdm> But, they just say "Sponsored"
18:36:17 <mattdm> Since this is our default web browser, and probably most people's main interaction with Fedora...
18:36:50 <mattdm> it isn't so clear that "Sponsored" means something other than "Sponsored by Fedora"
18:37:03 <mattdm> (Hmmm let alone "sponsor_ing_ Fedora")
18:37:19 <mattdm> This is also my concern with the websites selected for gnome-software
18:37:31 <mattdm> These things both look strongly like Fedora endorsements
18:37:33 <randomuser> the "What is this page" dialog says 'sponsored by mozilla partners' - but who's going to remember that
18:38:22 <mattdm> For people who download Firefox as a separate application, this is a non-issue, of course.
18:38:39 <mattdm> I'm really not sure what the right answer is.
18:38:41 <randomuser> mattdm, well, the webapps more strongly appear as endorsements, IMO.  Fedora is offering them $thing
18:39:01 <randomuser> firefox has a well established identity of it's own
18:39:09 * inode0 agrees with randomuser on this point
18:39:20 <mattdm> randomuser: have you seen the new wording? it seems to imply that less. but yes, I agree still.
18:39:30 * rdieter waves
18:39:37 <misc> I guess since that's a issue of how the user perceive the design, maybe we could ask to do a user survey ?
18:39:47 <mattdm> hi rdieter!
18:39:53 <jwb> we don't have time for a user survey
18:40:13 <mattdm> not for f21, certainly
18:40:18 <misc> so we can be conservative and do a survey/studiy and then revisit ?
18:40:27 <gholms> #topic Firefox's new tab page
18:40:34 <randomuser> there's plenty of signal on user perception; they have privacy concerns
18:40:39 <gholms> (Better late than never)
18:40:41 <mattdm> #info this has been the topic for the last half hour :)
18:40:52 <jwb> i don't think late is better than never on this one
18:41:02 <mattdm> misc: study is better than survey
18:41:10 <randomuser> I think we should strive to a private-by-default as much as secure-by-default
18:41:12 <gholms> jwb: On the topic, not the survey
18:41:20 <jwb> if we aren't going to change it for f21, changing it for f22 is fine but f21 is already getting a lot of extra press, etc.  perceptions will already be set
18:41:25 <misc> mattdm: yeah, english is failling me to express the difference
18:41:46 <number80> first, check with Mozilla if disabling the feature will keep allowing us to use the brand, if yes, then discuss with them, if no, we should consider switching to another browser
18:42:06 <jwb> ngh
18:42:07 <number80> for F21, it's too late
18:42:08 <mattdm> randomuser: I think there are two separate issues: the privacy concern, and the appearance of sponsorship/advocacy of things outside of our control
18:42:28 * randomuser nods
18:44:48 <gholms> These things are going to appear in software that doesn't have as high of a profile as this over time.  We may not notice immediately.  Is this case special or are we addressing the broader question?
18:45:24 <mattdm> gholms: and, probably, already appears in software in Fedora in various places that just haven't gotten attention
18:45:45 <randomuser> I don't want to be so absolutist that we have to patch out the iccf donation thing in vi
18:45:46 * gholms nods
18:46:16 <gholms> Opt-in things are a different story, IMO.
18:46:44 <mattdm> gholms the vim message comes up every time
18:47:03 <mattdm> gholms: or some of the times at random, more accurately
18:47:25 <randomuser> that's the product advertising itself, though
18:47:29 <mattdm> on the other hand, it is basically on an "about vim" page
18:47:54 <mattdm> yeah. If this were on an "about firefox" page, I wouldn't be concerned about the brand confusion issue
18:48:20 <jwb> so this being the, uh, Boucilard, i'd rather focus on the broader question
18:48:32 <misc> one side effect of firefox is that it would give us number of users
18:48:39 <jwb> fesco can deal with firefox once we decide what's acceptable
18:48:56 <number80> *nods*
18:48:56 <misc> not sure how we want that, but I feel this might matter
18:49:25 <jwb> i mean... can i add a kernel patch that advertises the benefits of a RHEL subscription in terms of support that gets printed for every kernel crash?
18:49:36 <jwb> or could ABRT do that?
18:49:36 <mattdm> jwb++
18:50:01 * misc need to leave the building
18:50:22 <number80> best way to encourage people disabling it :)
18:50:41 <jwb> but is it allowed?
18:51:08 <gholms> Does it send data to third parties by default?
18:51:22 <randomuser> proposal: referral based revenue generators SHOULD be off by default. Package maintainers MUST work with upstream to attempt to accommodate this. Any Fedora user MAY raise the issue of a package's advertising to the council for selective review.
18:51:42 <misc> gholms: no, but to be honest, the whole "asking to user" is a bit misleading, because most will happyly send information without reviews
18:51:49 <misc> like env vars with aws keys
18:51:54 <number80> randomuser: by default is too restrictive
18:51:54 <jwb> gholms, is that the deciding factor?  "ads are OK as long as they don't send data to 3rd parties"?
18:52:04 <misc> core dump with password ( I never upload evolution crash due to that )
18:52:27 <gholms> jwb: It is if your only concern is privacy.  But this is convolved with anti-ad concerns, too.
18:52:34 <randomuser> I was mostly trying to get the 'referral' designation in there
18:52:35 <number80> default packages should *not*, but we should be less restrictive for other packages installed by users
18:52:43 <mattdm> randomuser: does that include the firefox tiles?
18:52:47 <randomuser> referral marketing is as much about user data as exposure
18:52:53 <jwb> gholms, then i guess we need to figure out if we're talking about ads, "no call home" policy, or both
18:53:13 <gholms> jwb: Indeed.
18:53:20 <jwb> which, afaik, there is NO "no call home" policy
18:53:26 <mattdm> jwb: I think we need to talk about both, but draw them separately
18:53:27 <randomuser> mattdm, it's a sponsored link; mozilla gets paid because they referred you
18:53:37 <randomuser> there are probably more correct SEO terms
18:53:42 <jwb> mattdm, sure, i'm asking what we're trying to talk about righ tnow
18:54:02 * gholms needs to depart in five minutes
18:54:19 <mattdm> jwb: the abrt question seems like the sponsorship one, not the privacy one
18:54:36 <jwb> hm.  people are dropping
18:55:02 <mattdm> jwb yeah. there's still a big devel-list thread
18:55:19 <jwb> when does the council vote conclue?
18:55:22 <jwb> er, conclude?
18:55:43 <mattdm> jwb: Nov 26
18:55:46 <inode0> So, with the new council forming next week I just want to be clear that we aren't looking for a decision before then on any of this are we? Seems to me they should decide it.
18:55:49 <mattdm> at 00:00
18:56:11 <jwb> inode0, yeah, that's why i was asking
18:56:22 <jwb> and i'd agree.  this should probably wait for a council decision
18:56:29 <jwb> which leads us to "do nothing immediately for firefox"
18:56:34 <mattdm> inode0: mostly. however, if we feel like we need a change in Firefox before the ship date, the 26th is too late
18:56:44 <jwb> mattdm, it's already too late
18:57:03 <jwb> final freeze is tomorrow
18:57:18 * randomuser balks
18:57:19 <jwb> i don't think we're going to come to conclusion by tomorrow, and get a package built and tested by then
18:57:24 <mattdm> jwb: yes, although presumably a freeze exception _could_ be made.
18:57:29 <jwb> true
18:57:29 <mattdm> I agree that it's basically too late
18:57:34 <gholms> If we ask for it, sure.
18:57:48 <mattdm> I don't think there's enough clarity to make a rush decision
18:58:18 <number80> +1
18:59:12 * randomuser has an autoconfig deployment setup and will test if off-by-default with a new profile still shows the explanation balloon
18:59:27 <randomuser> because I'm curious
18:59:50 <mattdm> randomuser okay :)
19:00:02 <mattdm> and, I guess... let's close this for now and continue discussion on the mailing lists
19:00:10 <gholms> worksforme
19:00:18 <gholms> I have to go now.  Thanks, all.
19:00:48 <mattdm> bye everyone!
19:03:13 <number80> bye
19:09:39 <randomuser> alright, I'm getting back on the road now
19:09:46 * randomuser &
19:14:29 <gholms> #endmeeting