#meeting:fedoraproject.org log

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:03:40

!startmeeting commops

<@meetbot:fedora.im>

15:03:41

Meeting started at 2025-02-04 15:03:40 UTC

<@meetbot:fedora.im>

15:03:42

The Meeting name is 'commops'

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:03:52

!topic Intros & Welcome

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:04:14

!group members commops

<@zodbot:fedora.im>

15:04:17

Members of commops: algogator, alishapapun, Aoife Moloney, bee2502, Blaise Pabon, bt0dotninja, decause, Greg Sutcliffe, jflory7 (@jflory7:fedora.im, @fca:fedoraproject.org), jhoanir, Jona Azizaj, nauticalnexus, Nick Bebout, neil (@neil:fedora.im, @nhanlon:beeper.com), Marie Nordin, roca, Robert Wright, shraddhaag, skamath, snehalbaghel, Sumantro Mukherjee, tjzabel, x3mboy

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:04:22

Welcome friends.

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:04:26

!hi

<@zodbot:fedora.im>

15:04:28

Robert Wright (rwright) - he / him / his

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:05:41

I will kick off and chair as Justin is in a plane so I'll help keep things going this morning

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:05:54

While folks settle in, our agenda is online here

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:05:57

!link https://pad.sfconservancy.org/p/fedora-commops-meetings

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:06:25

!hi

<@zodbot:fedora.im>

15:06:26

Justin W. Wheeler (jflory7) - he / him / his

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:06:31

Gah, laptop is not cooperating.

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:06:36

But my phone is working :P

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:06:39

Have you tried Fedora Linux?

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:06:54

Cookies 4 U

<@thisisyaash:fedora.im>

15:07:12

!hi

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:07:12

We don't talk about Bruno

<@zodbot:fedora.im>

15:07:13

Yashwanth Rathakrishnan (thisisyaash)

<@nhanlon:beeper.com>

15:07:20

Hi! Also on a plane but the flight attendants woke me up talking 💢

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:08:08

OK. Now here from my laptop 👍️

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:08:10

I am not entirly sure how to accept the new world of folks flying above my head while talking to me on a machine in my house.

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:08:14

But probably just a few Kbps 😛

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:08:34

We live in a world with free WiFi on Delta flights 😛

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:08:57

I don't know how my sleep depravity feels about that, but I will have existential reflections another day 😄

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:09:22

It was great to see folks at FOSDEM 😎

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:09:27

Missed you there this time Robert Wright (he/him)

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:10:23

Ok - now that we've got some folks settling in

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:10:36

!info Agenda:

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:10:36

Team announcements & news (~5-10m)

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:10:36

Intros, welcomes, hellos (~5m)

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:10:36

Open floor (remaining 5-10 minutes)

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:10:36

Ticket discussions (remaining time)

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:10:48

Hmm Meetbot - we'll talk about the new line support later.

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:10:54

!topic Team announcements & news

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:11:13

I'll start with a biggie

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:11:16

!info === "Flock to Fedora 2025: Prague, June 5th – 8th!"===

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:11:21

!link https://fedoramagazine.org/flock-to-fedora-2025-prague-june-5th-8th/

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:11:21

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:11:36

w00t

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:11:44

JWW (@jflory7) any news or updates on Flock?

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:11:49

Stressful that it is earlier… but exciting at the same time.

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:11:58

Everything we got is in that article or on the flocktofedora.org website.

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:12:00

BUT

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:12:05

The website links to the wrong sponsor prospectus

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:12:09

There is a 2025 version

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:12:15

I need to do the thing to get the new thing on the new thing

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:12:17

😛

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:12:39

Otherwise, CFP is open now, registration is open now.

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:12:45

We should think of a CommOps presence at Flock

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:12:53

Not sure what that is yet, but… get thinking

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:12:55

<eof>

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:13:05

Neil Hanlon we hand out Beefy stickers. Join CommOps, we're here for fun.

<@nhanlon:beeper.com>

15:14:10

I am hoping i can make it but its probably not looking too likely this time around

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:14:22

!info === "Contribute at the Fedora Linux Test Week for Kernel 6.13" ===

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:14:31

!link https://fedoramagazine.org/contribute-at-the-fedora-linux-test-week-for-kernel-6-13/

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:15:00

Test week is coming up!

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:15:09

And lastly

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:15:11

!info === 2025-01-26: "Fedora Operations Architect Report" ===

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:15:16

!link https://communityblog.fedoraproject.org/fedora-operations-architect-report-4/

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:15:36

Just to highlight some of Aoife Moloney 's posts

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:16:33

🥲

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:17:07

If anyone knows what is happening around Fedora, it is Aoife.

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:17:10

Speaking of which - if folks are interested in what's going on in Fedora. The Fedora Council is having their annual Face to Face (F2F) right now in Spain! You can follow along and see some of the actions being discussed in their channel #council:fedoraproject.org. Having been in Council myself until recently, I can say it's an interesting read as an observer.

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:17:37

I am also a remote observer this time 😅

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:17:53

Any other announcements?

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:18:06

None from me.

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:18:56

OK... moving along

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:18:56

!topic Ticket discussions

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:19:13

As always, you can see tickets for meeting discussions here

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:19:15

!link https://gitlab.com/fedora/commops/home/-/issues/?label_name%5B%5D=meeting%20topic%20request

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:19:32

I'll start with the first in the list

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:19:34

Sorry for attacking your emails this week.

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:19:34

!link https://gitlab.com/fedora/commops/home/-/issues/28

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:19:49

I get worried when I open my email and GitLab is all I can see in my scroll.

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:20:26

OK - so new thoughts around this. We discussed over the last few weeks offline between folks around if positioning a more Notebook Forward Based Approach makes sense.

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:20:27

I guess when you are constantly in a state of chaos, you forget what it is like to dump that chaos all at once in a public issue tracker 😅🫣

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:20:47

Jupyter Notebooks?

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:20:56

Yeah, I submitted a new Infra ticket to ask for Data Hub to be installed on CommuniShift.

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:21:10

Nice

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:21:11

Which we could tap into and allow folks to create and run notebooks, but more interestingly...

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:21:17

Got a !link?

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:21:30

We can host the Parquet files NEXT TO the Notebooks - meaning we solve for my biggest painpoint

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:21:34

Equitable access to the data

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:22:05

!link https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/issue/12357

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:22:37

How does this solve the pain point?

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:23:01

The problem I've struggled with is I can give a bunch of people tools to work with the Fedora data, but they have to keep rebuilding the foundational data. That's been a headache and a struggle. So if we want to produce dashboards, we have a to have a place to run these "dashboards" or reports that lives with the data.

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:23:25

We have to, ahh… package them 😎

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:23:32

Basically yeah.

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:23:55

🦗🦗

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:24:11

So - to solve this problem and to just get "something" up in the air, and to use some native OpenShift capabilties, which means less dev time and more data time, I think this is a fast way to get something up.

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:24:21

ha ha. i laughed but IRL not internet.

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:24:35

So then, what is Data Hub? Specific software? A system?

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:24:46

Then I did it right.

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:24:57

!link https://opendatahub.io/

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:25:44

It provides a few things:

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:25:44

2. A whole host of other stuff for actually developing and managing AI models.

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:25:44

1. A Notebook hosting and Jupyter kernel management

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:25:55

Hmm, seems like something I should share with the Council for context during the AI guidelines discussion this week

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:26:12

What are we building AI models for?

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:26:18

Like, what is the purpose

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:26:31

Sorry, to clearify. OpenDataHub does all that. We, CommOps, don't need that.

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:26:34

We just need the notebooks.

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:26:38

The Jupyter notebook stuff makes a lot of sense

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:26:55

Sorry, another step back. Why? 😄

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:27:06

The benefit is I don't want to throw up a bunch of stuff we need to manage, the Operator on OpenShift just comes with it all.

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:27:11

So less overhead, more thigns quickly.

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:27:14

That's my train of thought.

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:27:17

Why this, I mean

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:27:34

This is the first thing that I think community members will wonder about

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:27:41

I think there are lots of valid reasons why

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:27:47

But it should be in line with our values. The Four Foundations

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:27:57

People will want to know that connection, most of all, our contributor community

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:28:42

Well, I think that's what I'm saying. I'm not saying we should or can use those parts of it. I'm saying the tooling "can" do it, but we're not targeting that. We're targeting just the Notebook and Data Science parts of it. Think of it as a platform with a lot of features.

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:29:22

We're turning it on, but not using those features. We're talking about just a small portion of those capabilities. Ideally, if we can shut it off and just keep it simple to notebook and kernel hosting, then all the best.

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:29:22

Maybe I can do a quick persona example, just to make sure I am understanding this right.

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:30:32

I am a Fedora Python packager and contributor who uses a tool to compare my package against the Fedora Packaging Guidelines so that my package matches the upstream standard as close as possible.

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:30:38

"I am a Fedora Python packager and contributor who uses a tool to compare my package against the Fedora Packaging Guidelines so that my package matches the upstream standard as close as possible."

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:30:46

I don't know if this is naïve to ask or not

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:31:01

I am trying to wrap my head around all this AI end of things, plus the intersection with the Open Source space

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:31:10

It is a super contemporary issue in FOSS today

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:31:51

This is to give one example of why we would build AI models off of contributor data and who we are building them for

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:32:04

Oh Ok - I see what your saying.

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:32:15

Anything studying data about our contributors and their activities is going to be more sensitive

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:32:37

I don't think that means "never do it!" but it means we should know why we want to do something and how we intend to go about it

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:32:39

Makes sense?

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:32:57

It is about being responsible and ethical about our contributor community

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:33:37

It does make sense and I think that's the part that we have to figure out how to be intentional about. The technology and use cases we've identified in the CommOps tracker are purely dashboards and health checks. Not AI or modeling.

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:33:52

The tooling we're discussing at this stage is to run and host these dashboards.

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:34:20

Yeah. Maybe to start with, we should be very cautious about any AI-related stuff. The Council is meeting this week to collaborate on guidelines for the community about usage of AI/ML in the community.

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:34:26

While the tool is capable of doign those things, the intention is not to look to say "step 2 is now let's do AI" because I agree, community should weigh in from that perspective.

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:34:31

We can hold on that until we have more context and guidance

<@misc:ephaone.org>

15:34:36

Wikipedia has a jupyter notebook services to interact with project, but also access to the db, etc: https://wikitech.wikimedia.org/wiki/PAWS it might be interesting to see how they use it, their policy, etc

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:34:43

I want theseeeeee

<@misc:ephaone.org>

15:35:02

(I used it for finding a sockpuppet)

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:35:05

Every time I go to CHAOSScon, I imagine what beautiful things we could learn about our community if we had the software and capabiities of analyzing our community like others do

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:35:24

The thing here is I'm using this tool, to acomplish our project, because it's simple and easy for us to host and run (in theory).

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:35:24

It's like buying a Jet Plane when I need a bike.

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:35:29

Cool, we are on the same page 👍️

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:35:54

I just need to get from Point A to B and the Plane is on sale, and this anaology is getting away from me.

<@nhanlon:beeper.com>

15:36:05

SOLD

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:36:17

haha, thank you neil. i laughed irl.

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:37:44

OK - so we're all in alignment? We're continuing to investigate OpenDataHub on Communishift to acomplish this ticket, to enable us to build dashboards, but not leveraging "AI modeling and training capabilities on Community data" without further consensus from community.

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:38:16

I want to acknowledge this as well - because there is so many ways you can host and run these services.

<@nhanlon:beeper.com>

15:38:45

I can see how some in the community could feel that the presence of the AI stuff as an option could be a "slippery slope", despite it not being our plan or intention to use them. Still, i think we need _something_ after all.

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:38:55

My intent here is to use "what's simple, available, and easy for Fedora Infra to hold". My theory being it's well supported downstream by Red Hat in some of their data science products, so we'll have it around for a while.

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:38:57

Wi-Fi on laptop died.

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:39:43

I think that's also something we should probably start talking about more and more because honestly, it's a few lines of Python later and you're playing with proper NLU or LLM models...

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:40:03

Taking the steps toward a platform that has these capabilities and does it in a way that aligns with the Four Foundations is important

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:40:03

Can I propose we table this for the next meeting - to discuss a formal "usage of AI" guidelines for our team?

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:40:25

And also 4 F's :P

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:40:25

Or even, open it up to Fedora Discussion?

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:40:39

Yep

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:40:44

I'm okay with this direction though.

<@salimma:fedora.im>

15:41:02

!hi

<@zodbot:fedora.im>

15:41:03

Michel Lind (salimma) - he / him / his

<@salimma:fedora.im>

15:41:25

I appreciate no usage of AI without soliciting community input (personally I'm dead set against)

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:41:32

!action Robert to open a thread about "Data Science & AI usage of Community Data" to get feedback from the broader community on perspectives and to set better boundaries for our group.

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:41:34

Thanks for helping run the conversation with Fedora Infra, Robert Wright (he/him) 👍🏻

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:42:05

## Time check: 25 minutes remaining

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:42:08

Honestly, for what we want to look at, AI isn't that interesting for us. I'll also give that hot take. :)

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:42:16

Heard. Which is exactly why anything that starts getting into data about our contributor community, their activities, and participation are something we give the highest respect and consideration.

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:42:18

Could you drop a comment with this on the GitLab ticket? Looks interesting 👀

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:42:37

https://gitlab.com/fedora/commops/home/-/issues/28

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:42:41

(oh, here comes my laptop messages 🤡)

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:42:43

We have looked at other MediaWiki tech in the past for community architecture type of work

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:45:01

I also want to state for the meeting notes that there isn't any intention or lookahead to doing any kind of AI work using our community data using OpenDataHub at this time.

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:45:12

I think that's important that we say that here as well because of the sensitivity.

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:45:34

Next ticket

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:45:36

!link https://gitlab.com/fedora/commops/home/-/issues/45

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:46:11

!g topic #45 Counting Fedora release contributors

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:46:15

!link https://gitlab.com/fedora/commops/home/-/issues/45

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:46:44

I have no new updates here

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:46:47

I know Greg is working on this, I produced some similar notebooks on my blog series around user counts.

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:46:49

But would love to have someone give it a go

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:46:58

If there is a way that does not involve pain and suffering 😝

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:47:40

Awesome. Gwmngilfen: might be taking a slow day after CentOS Connect and FOSDEM. But maybe we can hear more about it in a future meeting.

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:48:45

!g topic #64 Create onboarding recommendations for Pantheon SIG

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:49:07

!link https://gitlab.com/fedora/commops/home/-/issues/64

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:50:09

Evidently, this part of Greenland that I am over right now is not good enough for GitLab 😝

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:50:25

I think I left a comment on the ticket as a clue for the meeting

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:51:18

>I cleared the assignees on this issue, because no work has started yet, to the best of my knowledge. I think it is really important we first see whether the Pantheon SIG would like this kind of support. Maybe we could ask one of their members to help peer-review changes and ideas we come up with to improve their onboarding pathway.

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:51:18

Alternatively, I was also thinking that it might be helpful to focus more on ourselves first. CommOps could do an audit of ourselves and our onboarding guidelines to find out how effective and inclusive they are. Then, whatever we learn after improving ours, we can reach out to another SIG and help them too.

<@gwmngilfen:fedora.im>

15:51:23

Quite the opposite, I'm at Day1 of State Of Open :)

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:51:47

Haaaah, keeping the event train going. All the best! It can wait until next time 👍🏻

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:52:06

Oh yeah. I was split minds here.

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:52:29

I was thinking maybe we should hold off on projects working with other SIGs and WGs on onboarding

<@gwmngilfen:fedora.im>

15:52:35

As I said in the ticket, I have a pretty much permanent conflict at this timeslot anyway, it's when my coding club runs at the primary school :)

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:52:39

First, we probably need to find a new groove for 2025

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:53:16

Maybe it is time to start looking for a new time. Or maybe I can recruit the next FPL at the same time, before their calendar gets full 😝

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:53:34

March might be a good time for a new meeting slot

<@gwmngilfen:fedora.im>

15:53:51

But I'll keep you updated as I go. I'd like to have some take on that stuff for Flock, and that means grappling with it now

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:57:11

I’m in favor of a self audit first. Might be faster.

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:57:17

We can keep the conversation going in the main team room 🙌🏻

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:57:20

Could we do a hack hour in the next week or so on this?

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:57:54

I trust us to act within both the spirit of our community and what is technically allowed by policy today

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:58:30

Ok - I think we’re out of time for today.

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:58:42

I have some personal health things going on next week. Maybe I can join or maybe not… it is better for me after February 18

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:58:44

Oh wow. The time flew.

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:58:50

Any last things folks?

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:58:55

We can coordinate this asynchronously

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:59:17

Just to say I appreciate y'all! And I have a lot of energy and enthusiasm for what we do in Fedora 💪🏻

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:59:24

Looking forward to a great year together.

<@jflory7:fedora.im>

15:59:40

Robert Wright (he/him)++ Thanks for chairing.

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:59:40

Thanks all! 💙

<@zodbot:fedora.im>

15:59:41

jflory7 has already given cookies to rwright during the F41 timeframe

<@rwright:fedora.im>

15:59:51

!endmeeting