18:00:02 <bcotton_> #startmeeting Council (2021-01-07)
18:00:02 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Jan  7 18:00:02 2021 UTC.
18:00:02 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
18:00:02 <zodbot> The chair is bcotton_. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
18:00:02 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
18:00:02 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'council_(2021-01-07)'
18:00:04 <bcotton_> #meetingname council
18:00:04 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'council'
18:00:05 <bcotton_> #chair bookwar dcantrell jwf riecatnor spot mattdm bcotton asamalik x3mboy
18:00:05 <zodbot> Current chairs: bcotton_ bookwar dcantrell jwf riecatnor spot mattdm bcotton asamalik x3mboy
18:00:07 <bcotton_> #topic Introductions, Welcomes
18:00:13 <jwf> .hello jflory7
18:00:14 <zodbot> jwf: jflory7 'Justin W. Flory' <foss@jwf.io>
18:00:19 <dcantrell> .hello2
18:00:20 <zodbot> dcantrell: dcantrell 'David Cantrell' <dcantrell@redhat.com>
18:00:29 <x3mboy> .hello2
18:00:30 <zodbot> x3mboy: x3mboy 'Eduard Lucena' <eduardlucena@gmail.com>
18:00:32 * King_InuYasha waves
18:00:35 <King_InuYasha> .hello ngompa
18:00:36 <zodbot> King_InuYasha: ngompa 'Neal Gompa' <ngompa13@gmail.com>
18:00:42 <mattdm> .hello2
18:00:43 <zodbot> mattdm: mattdm 'Matthew Miller' <mattdm@mattdm.org>
18:00:54 <jwf> Good $TIME_OF_DAY folks
18:01:12 <mattdm> yep! happy whenever it is to everyone!
18:01:16 <dcantrell> happy new year
18:01:31 <riecatnor> .hello riecatnor
18:01:32 <zodbot> riecatnor: riecatnor 'Marie Nordin' <mnordin@redhat.com>
18:01:41 <spot> .hello spot
18:01:42 <zodbot> spot: spot 'Tom Callaway' <spotrh@gmail.com>
18:03:30 <bcotton_> so many peoples!
18:03:43 <bcotton_> okay, let's begin
18:03:55 <bcotton_> #topic Today's agenda
18:03:57 <bcotton_> #info Trademark requests
18:03:59 <bcotton_> #topic Fedora annual survey
18:04:00 <bcotton_> #topic YouTube policy proposal
18:04:02 <bcotton_> #topic Matrix update
18:04:03 <bcotton_> #topic Add the Fedora goal of having complete integrated system
18:04:05 <bcotton_> #info Your topics here!
18:04:06 <bcotton_> OH NO
18:04:11 <mattdm> whoah
18:04:14 <spot> good meeting
18:04:15 <King_InuYasha> O.o
18:04:30 <bcotton_> I forgot to s/topic/info/ when i copypasta'ed
18:04:36 <bcotton_> but YOLO
18:04:37 <jwf> I've been there :D
18:04:41 <bcotton_> i'm not going to type #undo that many times :-)
18:04:41 <mattdm> spot someone read your tweet
18:04:49 <mattdm> yeah it's fine :)
18:04:57 <bcotton_> #topic Trademark requests
18:04:58 <bcotton_> #link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/348
18:05:00 <bcotton_> #link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/349
18:05:21 <bcotton_> and possibly 347?
18:05:31 <bcotton_> mattdm: the floor is yours
18:05:42 <mattdm> I think the Destination Linux one is in "need info" state really.
18:05:57 <mattdm> Maybe it should have that followup: like, "what exactly are you planning to make and sell"?
18:06:33 <mattdm> In the past spot has worked with mizmo on reviewing third-party items like this
18:06:46 <mattdm> I think the thing to do is to ask them that question, and for some samples?
18:07:05 <mattdm> I yield the floor to anyone else who has opinions on this :)
18:07:22 <spot> I might have a copy of the agreement terms we used for the other vendor who went through the review process.
18:07:40 <spot> if not, I know who I sent a copy to before I left RH
18:08:09 <mattdm> bcotton_ as Fedora Legal liaison that's probably your problem now :)
18:08:33 <spot> but basically, they need to tell us what they want to produce, we need to get a sample before they produce any new item, check the sample for quality, and give them permission to do so.
18:08:40 <mattdm> Do we want to ask them for samples?
18:08:43 <spot> we also want something in return for the trademark permission.
18:08:56 <bcotton_> depends on what they're planning on making and how, imo
18:09:24 <spot> bcotton_: imho, it doesn't really. anything with our logo on it should be quality controlled.
18:09:44 <riecatnor> spot, +1
18:10:13 <mizmo> how do you handle if its not a physical object, like shells.com
18:10:22 <jwf> I like getting a sample before making a heavy investment. But it does slow down the ticket turnaround. I wonder if we could give permission for a small-scale release, like n number of stickers or apparel items
18:10:30 <jwf> That way, it could also give us a gauge on demand
18:10:39 <spot> jwf: if they can't turn a sample around quickly, thats a huge red flag
18:10:58 <mizmo> spot: but in endtimes shipping takes years
18:11:14 <spot> mizmo: not as worried about a shipping delay (tracking numbers, yay)
18:11:16 * mizmo still waiting on her nov xmas card order from shutterfly lol
18:11:24 <spot> because that's not on them
18:11:28 <mattdm> mizmo: for shells.com we can get complimentary login access to see it in action
18:11:39 <spot> any vendor worth doing work with is going to be okay with this model
18:12:16 <mattdm> Okay, so, should I ask for samples to be sent? To whom?
18:12:25 <spot> Fedora Legal.
18:12:28 <mattdm> s/I/we/, except I'll do it. :)
18:13:07 <spot> and the contract needs to go through Red Hat.
18:13:21 <spot> (no verbal/email agreements to use trademark for merch)
18:13:23 <mattdm> via bcotton_
18:13:25 <jwf> Does Fedora Legal mean #action bcotton_ now? :P
18:13:29 <mattdm> yep!
18:13:31 * spot shrugs
18:13:58 <mattdm> that is official btw. not in his fpgm role but in addition to it
18:14:11 <mattdm> legal saw his tshirt and was like, well, okay.
18:14:15 <King_InuYasha> welp
18:14:32 <jwf> Good to know!
18:14:57 <jwf> So, #348 blocked on a sample
18:15:03 <jwf> Do we take a vote on #349?
18:15:06 <riecatnor> spot, how would this process look for this: https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/347 an individual person requesting
18:15:21 <mattdm> yes that was my next question :)
18:15:25 <spot> well, here's my take:
18:15:34 <spot> redbubble is notoriously poor quality
18:15:43 <spot> not just in the garbage people put on there
18:15:49 <spot> but the quality of the goods produced
18:16:02 <mattdm> I'm _super_ happy with the metal prints of some art I got from there.
18:16:13 <spot> in my past lives of making merch for events, we would never consider them as a good vendor
18:16:16 <mattdm> I definitely do not intend to just enable it on all of their stuff
18:16:47 <spot> I would much rather try to find a vendor where we could have a more direct relationship.
18:16:49 <riecatnor> spot, I don't consider them a good vendor, as I put in my comment. This is on a personal level for mattdm afaik
18:17:56 <spot> i don't like this idea.
18:18:31 <spot> A) it will encourage rather than discourage people using redbubble for Fedora things (see, the FPL does it)
18:18:43 <spot> B) we have no way to enforce quality control over the vendor
18:19:59 <mattdm> Hmmm. I'm not sure on A, if we can note that it's officially authorized not _just_ because I'm the FPL
18:20:32 <spot> if it was random fedora contributor, i doubt we'd even consider it.
18:20:37 <mattdm> And on B, is it concern with variation from sample to sample?
18:21:22 <spot> mattdm: its muddy because there is no direct contract between the vendor and the trademark holder
18:21:54 <spot> you can't guarantee that redbubble won't switch sticker vendors or tshirt manufacturers
18:22:00 <mattdm> Ok, so, riecatnor definitely has misgivings too. So, I do have a plan B, which is to use Bay Photo, a high end finishing lab.
18:22:42 <spot> I think a better strategy would be to identify what items our community wants that are not being well met and trying to identify a vendor who can produce them for us
18:22:45 <mattdm> It just requires a lot more work from me; redbubble's advantage of course is it can be set up very quickly and provides a one-stop storefront
18:22:46 <riecatnor> I think spot makes a good point about looking at the situation if this was a random contributor requesting it. Would we look at this differently?
18:22:55 <mattdm> Probably, yes.
18:23:22 <mattdm> Okay, between the two of you, I will retract this idea and when I get a chance play around with the other one.
18:23:27 <spot> Red Hat has established relationships with several swag vendors who would be more than happy to do this for us
18:23:44 <mattdm> spot Yeah, riecatnor is working on that.
18:23:46 <spot> i would talk to the Brand team. :)
18:23:46 <riecatnor> spot, as I also mentioned in my comment, I am in the middle of this.
18:23:55 <mattdm> I can be patient, sometimes :)
18:24:02 * King_InuYasha snorts
18:24:14 <riecatnor> imo, mattdm take the wallpaper you want to print and print it!
18:24:22 <mattdm> riecatnor: ssshhhhh
18:24:24 <riecatnor> if *you* want it, do it!
18:24:33 <riecatnor> lol
18:24:38 <mattdm> But seriously I also want to make it available to people. But we can talk more about that later.
18:24:52 <spot> i don't think there is any concern about people making their own goods for personal use, just the act of selling those works.
18:25:11 <mattdm> yeah and that's where redbubble is problematic
18:25:16 <spot> yup.
18:25:29 <jwf> It is fair game in CC BY-SA :) I think it is a question of access. I anticipate hearing more about what riecatnor is working on to make this feasible.
18:25:32 <mattdm> okay, I'm okay with this. Next up? :)
18:25:37 <bcotton_> in the interests of moving the conversation along, are either spot or riecatnor willing to -1 the redbubble request (#347)? because that would be enough to kill it
18:25:43 <spot> jwf: don't confuse copyright with trademark. ;)
18:25:51 <spot> -1
18:25:58 <riecatnor> -1
18:26:17 <bcotton_> cool, then 347 is dead
18:26:32 <jwf> I know – but that's why it is a Council topic :)
18:26:35 <bcotton_> and for 348 and 349 it seems like the path forward is for me to request samples
18:27:00 <bcotton_> anyone disagree with that?
18:27:11 <jwf> bcotton_: +1
18:27:20 <riecatnor> +1
18:27:23 <mattdm> bcotton_: you want sample shells?
18:27:31 <jwf> A demo environment would be nice
18:27:35 <mattdm> +1 to 348. hold up on 349
18:27:38 <jwf> If it was super laggy, might not be a good first impression
18:27:43 <mattdm> I have a demo environment of their ubuntu one
18:27:43 <spot> bcotton_: maybe want to see if the vendor is on board with our preconditions (must get samples & approval before any new item with logo is offered)
18:28:04 <mattdm> It's pretty slick although there are some technical issues.
18:28:28 <spot> Otherwise, +1 on 348
18:28:41 <mattdm> I'd like to tell them if we're okay with the general concept before they go to the trouble to set it up
18:29:09 <bcotton_> #action bcotton to get more information from the vendor on #348
18:29:30 <spot> mattdm: well, the samples will cost someone money (them or us), so making sure they are onboard with the logic matters
18:30:36 <mattdm> yes I guess this applies both to hosted environments and to physical merch
18:31:06 <mattdm> For shells.com, it's my understanding that they are mostly or perhaps completely within https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Legal:Trademark_guidelines#OEM_pre-loads_of_unmodified_Fedora_software
18:31:08 <mattdm> or could be
18:31:21 <mattdm> well wait no this one https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Legal:Trademark_guidelines#Virtual_images_or_appliances_with_unmodified_Fedora_software
18:31:24 <mattdm> or some kind of blend
18:32:00 <mattdm> but like Lenovo they'd like official permission just to be clear.
18:32:26 <spot> the difference there is the extra clause we added for data in /opt for Lenovo that was not added for virtual images
18:32:26 <mattdm> Also they may need to make some small config changes.
18:32:26 <King_InuYasha> official permission also gives us knowledge of it
18:32:48 <King_InuYasha> and gives an opportunity for tighter relationships down the road
18:33:11 <mattdm> they'd also like to be on getfedora for workstation, which doesn't sound unreasonable given that we have amazon links for cloud/coreos
18:33:31 <spot> My take on this is that we should get a list of all changes they plan to make, sanity check it, and approve it.
18:33:42 <spot> (and if that list changes, we should redo this operation)
18:34:08 <bcotton_> spot: +1
18:34:11 <mattdm> the people behind it are the founders of private internet access vpn, btw, and they've been good open source community citizens (sponsoring freenode, gnome, and more)
18:34:39 <mattdm> that makes sense to me spot
18:34:59 <spot> might want a "red hat/fedora is not affiliated with shell.com" or something. question for lawyers.
18:35:18 <bcotton_> #action bcotton to contact the vendor for #349 to get acess to a test environment and an explicit list of changes they make
18:35:40 <mattdm> #action bcotton check on affiliation disclaimer
18:35:56 <bcotton_> spot: on their end or ours?
18:36:00 <spot> ours.
18:36:03 <bcotton_> ack
18:36:06 <King_InuYasha> bcotton_: if this goes well, I'd also be interested in seeing if we could have Fedora spins also loaded in there
18:36:10 <King_InuYasha> esp Fedora KDE
18:36:47 <bcotton_> okay, i think we're ready to move on?
18:36:56 <mattdm> King_InuYasha: they currently have a number of Ubuntu flavors, so I think they are very intersted in that
18:37:04 <King_InuYasha> nice
18:37:15 <King_InuYasha> wasn't sure based on the request, so hence the ask
18:37:56 <bcotton_> #topic Fedora annual survey
18:37:58 <bcotton_> #link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/327
18:38:00 <bcotton_> #info Previously, bookwar said she'd draft a proposal for this
18:38:08 <bcotton_> bookwar is not here, so we'll leave this for next time
18:38:11 <bcotton_> easy enough :-)
18:38:26 <bcotton_> #topic YouTube policy proposal
18:38:28 <bcotton_> #link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/323
18:38:30 <bcotton_> proposed #agreed The Fedora Council approves of this draft, but doesn't think it belongs as a Council policy. We recommend it to the Mindshare committee as a policy for that group as part of their stewardship of official social media channels.
18:38:38 <mattdm> +1
18:38:49 <spot> +1
18:38:51 <bcotton_> matthew proposed the above text in the ticket, which seems to be the general sense, but it'd be good to formalize it
18:38:53 <bcotton_> +1
18:39:54 <bcotton_> x3mboy: are you okay with this?
18:41:43 <bcotton_> #action bcotton to ping x3mboy in the ticket and if he agrees to the proposed text (which he appears to) then it is accepted
18:41:51 <mattdm> yelp
18:41:55 <mattdm> wait yep
18:41:57 <mattdm> no l
18:42:02 <bcotton_> just for that
18:42:05 <bcotton_> #topic Matrix update
18:42:07 <bcotton_> #link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/342
18:42:18 <mattdm> riecatnor is waiting on finance.
18:42:19 <bcotton_> mattdm: the people want to know about this
18:42:23 <mattdm> finance is on vacation
18:42:51 <riecatnor> things are getting set up :) corporate style lol
18:43:13 <bcotton_> #info We are waiting on Red Hat Finance who are recovering from their year-end work
18:43:47 <bcotton_> i guess they're mostly taking their recharge this week since they have to work the last week of december now
18:44:03 <bcotton_> riecatnor: so we can expect in 3-5 years? ;-)
18:44:16 <riecatnor> optimistic outlook ;)
18:44:25 <King_InuYasha> :'(
18:44:25 <riecatnor> LOL jk, I am on it
18:44:43 <bcotton_> okay, anything on this?
18:44:47 <bcotton_> anything else, that is
18:45:37 <bcotton_> #topic Add the Fedora goal of having complete integrated system
18:45:39 <bcotton_> #link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/280
18:45:40 <bcotton_> #info From vF2F: mattdm and bookwar to find a place to fit “upstream first” and then add in the contents of https://fedoraproject.org/w/index.php?title=Objectives&oldid=2124
18:45:50 <bcotton_> bookwar still isn't here, but mattdm: have you two done your homework?
18:45:58 <mattdm> no :)
18:46:03 <mattdm> it was vacation!
18:46:15 <bcotton_> what is "vacation"?
18:47:05 <bcotton_> #topic Next meeting
18:47:06 <bcotton_> #info The next video meeting is Thursday 14 January featuring Tomáš Tomecek and Hunor Csomortáni talking about source-git.
18:47:07 <mattdm> this thing that bcotton_ does work through, generating work for his colleagues!
18:47:08 <bcotton_> #info The next regular business meeting is Thursday 21 January
18:47:12 <mattdm> <3
18:47:22 <bcotton_> 😇
18:47:39 <bcotton_> #topic Do we have anything to announce?
18:47:40 <bcotton_> #info This is a regular check to make sure we're communicating to the contributor (via CommBlog) and user (via Magazine) communities
18:47:49 <bcotton_> #info We published a readout of the virtual face-to-face
18:47:50 <bcotton_> #link https://communityblog.fedoraproject.org/fedora-council-november-2020-meeting/
18:48:04 <riecatnor> we had a NYE party!
18:48:28 <mattdm> and an end-of-year blog post, which, bcotton_, I really appreciate your help with despite my snarky comments above
18:48:29 <x3mboy> I'm ok with it
18:48:36 <x3mboy> Holy delay
18:48:37 <bcotton_> and yet, it's still 2020 somehow
18:48:39 <bcotton_> x3mboy: ack
18:48:43 <x3mboy> Almost 50 messages of delay
18:49:00 <mattdm> Fedora Social Hour tonight!
18:49:30 <x3mboy> Cool!!!
18:49:35 <bcotton_> #info We had a NYE party
18:49:44 <bcotton_> #info mattdm wrote a love letter to the community
18:49:45 <riecatnor> also, one week left to do community outreach survey
18:49:45 <riecatnor> https://fedoraproject.limequery.com/679163?lang=en
18:49:52 <bcotton_> #link https://fedoramagazine.org/a-2020-love-letter-to-the-fedora-community/
18:50:04 <riecatnor> https://hopin.com/events/nye-party-with-fedora
18:50:06 <bcotton_> #help Fill out the Community Outreach revamp survey
18:50:13 <bcotton_> #link https://fedoraproject.limequery.com/679163?lang=en
18:50:51 <bcotton_> #info mattdm has been promoted to Distinguished Engineer
18:50:53 <bcotton_> #link https://bcotton.fedorapeople.org/mattdm-distinguished.jpg
18:50:57 <riecatnor> mattdm++
18:51:08 <mattdm> lol
18:51:11 <riecatnor> hahahaha
18:51:11 <mattdm> thank you
18:51:17 <bcotton_> ^^ may have been what i was doing while everyone was rollcall-ing
18:51:27 <mattdm> my children also asked if I was trading my fedora for a top hat
18:51:32 <spot> mattdm: congrats
18:51:38 <mattdm> thanks spot!
18:51:55 <riecatnor> bcotton_, I think distinguished mattdm might need a curly mustache
18:51:58 <x3mboy> I have a new to share
18:52:01 <jwf> mattdm++ Congrats!
18:52:10 <x3mboy> News*
18:52:12 <riecatnor> x3mboy, !
18:52:19 <bcotton_> x3mboy: go ahead
18:52:21 <mattdm> #action mattdm answer congratulations messages all afternoon :)
18:53:16 <King_InuYasha> mattdm: congratulations!
18:53:21 <King_InuYasha> what does that mean, though?
18:53:23 <x3mboy> When the F33 cycle ends, I will left my seat in mindshare and in consequence from the Council
18:53:31 <dcantrell> mattdm: congrats
18:53:54 <mattdm> King_InuYasha, dcantrell thanks!
18:54:41 <bcotton_> x3mboy: do you mean F34? (may-ish 2021)
18:54:55 <mattdm> bcotton_: he means when f34 starts, I think
18:55:12 <mattdm> (right?)
18:55:15 <x3mboy> Yes, that
18:55:18 <bcotton_> that was in november
18:55:40 <mattdm> when f34 is released, then. you know.
18:55:56 <mattdm> the way we have named these things for time immemorial
18:56:02 <bcotton_> ok, that's what i figured, just trying to disambiguate
18:56:30 <riecatnor> x3mboy, you told me a while ago you would like to retire at the end of the year as you've been on Mindshare for a *very* long time.. so from mindshare perspective you can continue til end of this release or not. Totally up to you :)
18:56:53 <mattdm> yeah same. you've done a lot of awesome things for us!
18:57:11 <bcotton_> #info x3mboy intends to retire from Fedora Mindshare Committee at the end of the current development cycle
18:57:12 <x3mboy> I will cover until F34 because I will be able to focus on i3
18:57:40 <bcotton_> #info x3mboy has done a lot of great work over the years and deserves to take a break for a bit
18:57:53 <mattdm> Does Mindshare have an established process for selecting the next Council rep?
18:57:54 <mattdm> x3mboy++
18:58:02 <jwf> x3mboy++ :)
18:58:13 <x3mboy> Thanks
18:58:19 <x3mboy> Mattdm, yes we have
18:58:22 <riecatnor> #link https://pagure.io/mindshare/issue/241
18:58:25 <riecatnor> we are retiring the marketing seat
18:58:27 <riecatnor> for now
18:58:31 <mattdm> cool, I figured.
18:58:58 <riecatnor> we are also splitting web & design seats
18:59:00 <riecatnor> #link https://pagure.io/design/issue/712
18:59:34 <mattdm> makes sense to me
18:59:44 <bcotton_> i guess that means we need to make the web team not a zombie :-)
19:00:08 <bcotton_> but we're at the top of the hour, so that's a topic for another time
19:00:19 <mattdm> yes. that's a good topic though.
19:00:31 <mattdm> thanks for running the meeting bcotton_
19:00:39 <bcotton_> bye all!
19:00:42 <bcotton_> #endmeeting