<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:02:14
!startmeeting Fedora Council meeting - 2024-08-28
<@meetbot:fedora.im>
14:02:15
Meeting started at 2024-08-28 14:02:14 UTC
<@meetbot:fedora.im>
14:02:15
The Meeting name is 'Fedora Council meeting - 2024-08-28'
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:02:18
!meetingname council
<@meetbot:fedora.im>
14:02:19
The Meeting Name is now council
<@dcantrell:fedora.im>
14:02:21
!hi
<@zodbot:fedora.im>
14:02:22
David Cantrell (dcantrell) - he / him / his
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:02:47
!topic Intros, welcomes, hellos
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:02:48
!hi
<@zodbot:fedora.im>
14:02:49
Justin W. Flory (jflory7) - he / him / his
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:02:52
Hey dcantrell!
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:02:57
!group members council
<@jonatoni:fedora.im>
14:02:57
!hi
<@zodbot:fedora.im>
14:02:58
Jona Azizaj (jonatoni) - she / her / hers
<@zodbot:fedora.im>
14:02:59
Members of council: Aoife Moloney, asamalik, Aleksandra Fedorova, bt0dotninja, David Cantrell, FAS Fernando F. Mancera, Jason Brooks, jflory7 (@jflory7:fedora.im, @fca:fedoraproject.org), Jona Azizaj, Matthew Miller, Robert Wright, smeragoel, Akashdeep Dhar
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:03:07
Hey Jona Azizaj (she/her) 👋
<@jbrooks:matrix.org>
14:03:09
!hi jasonbrooks
<@zodbot:fedora.im>
14:03:12
Jason Brooks (jasonbrooks) - he / him / his
<@dcantrell:fedora.im>
14:03:25
Justin W. Flory (he/him): this isn't council specific, but I need the expensing steps for my Flock travel expenses. the cost center change-a-roo, etc
<@jbrooks:matrix.org>
14:03:28
I'm in another meeting that I can't skip, spit attn
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:03:30
Hey Jason Brooks!
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:03:51
dcantrell: Was it not in the email I sent to you in July? If not, I will follow-up soon. TL;DNR: 708 cost center, P066 project code.
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:04:11
Jason Brooks: All good, this one should be pretty light today
<@dcantrell:fedora.im>
14:04:23
Justin W. Flory (he/him): it probably was, I didn't look back in that email. my mistake
<@dcantrell:fedora.im>
14:04:45
(TL;DNR -- that's dark)
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:04:58
dcantrell: No worries! Drop me a Matrix DM if you have other pending questions, my email inbox is still a trashfire but I am working on getting it more managed.
<@dcantrell:fedora.im>
14:05:10
noted will do
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:05:26
Too Long Did Not Read? I didn't mean it so literally but maybe I see what you mean 😅
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:05:34
I know mattdm said he would be 15 minutes late or so
<@dcantrell:fedora.im>
14:05:37
funny, I was just sorted old archived mail yesterday. I try to keep a very organized email warehouse. I was starting at 1990 if that gives you any ideas of the amount of email I sort
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:05:48
I think let's go ahead and get started.
<@dcantrell:fedora.im>
14:05:58
yeah, I see DNR as Do Not Resuscitate
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:06:24
dcantrell: My first email inbox came online in 2009 :) And it was probably, technically, illegal for me to have that, COPA or whatever that bill is :P
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:06:35
Ohhhh lol 😅 Didn't think about that 😅
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:06:46
!topic Council announcements & news
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:06:50
I have two :)
<@dcantrell:fedora.im>
14:06:52
I fully recommend people delay email as long as possible as they can in their life because once you turn it on, it never stops
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:07:41
!info === Flock 2024 happened this month! Hooray! There is an official event report coming on the Community Blog soon from tosin_doreen. You can also share your own event reports and any social media coverage in a section on the Fedora Wiki. ===
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:07:50
!link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Flock_2024#Event_reports_&_social_media
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:08:44
!info === The Flock 2024 post-event survey is live until Friday, September 6th. This survey will directly influence decisions made for planning Flock 2025. We are testing some new ideas and theories in the survey. If you have not yet filled it, please fill it ASAP. Even if you were not there in-person (just choose virtual attendee option if you were remote). ===
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:08:45
!link https://fedoraproject.limequery.com/flock-2024
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:09:07
^^ Also, I intend to give a sneak preview of the 73 responses so far in this meeting, just to get a sense of where things are looking :)
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:09:14
Those are my announcements.
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:09:20
I mean, there is probably more, but those are top of mind.
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:09:26
Anyone else have anything to call out or share?
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:09:33
Anything interesting? Any upcoming deadlines to be aware of?
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:10:25
Going once…
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:10:35
Going twice…
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:10:45
Going thrice…
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:11:00
💥
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:11:21
!topic Special topic: Sneak preview of Flock 2024 post-event survey results
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:11:33
I thought this might be an insightful update to touch on quickly
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:11:45
There is still 1.5 weeks left for people to fill in the responses, so this is not a final view
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:11:49
But the results are pretty telling so far.
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:12:10
I am not going to recap all the survey responses, but specifically, I want to call out the type of respondents so far, and the responses to the 2025 changes questions (so far)
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:12:25
So, without further ado…
<@mattdm:fedora.im>
14:13:13
(suspense)
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:13:19
So far, our respondents are largely in-person, but we have a good slice of virtual attendees who were not able to attend.
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:13:41
We had 112 people who checked in in-person for Flock. So, I would like to get that number of in-person people higher before the end of the survey.
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:13:46
But we are getting good uptake so far.
<@ludiusvox:fedora.im>
14:13:59
I'll take the survey today okay
<@mattdm:fedora.im>
14:14:12
Justin and I have a quibble over what "virtual attendees" might include :)
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:14:45
!info 112 in-person check-ins. Responses to the survey so far include 45 in-person attendees, 29 virtual attendees/non-attendees, 26 speakers, 19 volunteers, 4 organizers.
<@mattdm:fedora.im>
14:15:09
I really want to hear from contributors and potential contributors who would have liked to be there in person, even if they also didn't set aside the time as a "virtual attendee"
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:15:16
Next up! 2025 Changes section…
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:15:40
We are collecting data about this, but I won't share that today. I will wait until the survey is officially closed and then review. Most of that feedback is qualitative anyways and not quantitative.
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:16:32
These are the three primary questions we are testing for 2025.
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:16:38
The responses are quite interesting so far.
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:16:54
!info Three primary questions being tested for 2025.
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:17:16
!info 1. In the future, would you prefer Flock to Fedora to: Stay in the same place, alternate regions but keep the same place, change place after a few years, change location every year, no preference.
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:17:33
!info 2. What are your thoughts on changing when Flock to Fedora is held each year? August, June to July, September to October.
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:17:44
!info 3. What are your thoughts on holding Flock to Fedora sequentially with DevConf.CZ in Brno, Czechia (June 2025)?
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:17:50
My interpretation of the results so far…
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:18:14
By the numbers, the strongest preference for location is to change every year. However, it is not a majority.
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:18:47
The majority of people who requested a new location every year highly valued the opportunity to visit somewhere new and different, and to connect with local community members in places we go. It also opens up opportunities for people to attend who might not normally attend.
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:19:18
However, the qualitative feedback from the people who chose all the other responses was that the sameness provides more predictability and makes Flock easier to plan for and commit to in advance. The plan is consistent and people can plan with consistency.
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:19:28
(It also makes organizing the event itself easier, but that is a tangent for now)
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:19:38
The question on timing was a lot more mixed though.
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:19:45
There was not a strong favorite for the dates.
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:20:14
However, one thing that came up in qualitative feedback is that September and October is Objectively Bad™ because of the Fedora release schedule and various deadlines in the release cycle that are lined up right on the heels of the August Flock date.
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:20:43
So, in that sense, it is either preferable to keep the early/mid August dates, or possibly shift earlier so there is more time for people working on changes in an upcoming release to use Flock as momentum instead of taking away time to land their changes.
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:21:04
Lastly, the DevConf CZ question.
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:21:08
Strong, strong opinions here :)
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:21:15
And the most interesting question to me personally.
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:21:37
It is an open secret that Flock will return to Europe in 2025, per our historical cadence of swapping continents. I don't see reason for that to change in 2025.
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:21:58
However, the majority of respondents so far were neutral to the idea of sequencing Flock after DevConf CZ.
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:22:05
But it was a slim majority.
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:22:22
If you count the people strongly or somewhat in favor, it is almost the same amount of people who were neutral.
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:22:32
The minority of people were somewhat or strongly against.
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:23:04
And of those respondents, it seemed like most people were against Europe entirely, versus being specific to Brno or DevConf CZ. The negative feedback was usually "too expensive to travel to Europe" or "please have Flock in the US again."
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:23:20
I think there is definitely something interesting here… but the survey is not finished yet.
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:23:38
I suspect there will be some tighter coordination between DevConf CZ and Flock in 2025, but it remains to be seen how or what that might look like.
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:23:49
This concludes your Flock 2024 post-event survey sneak peek 🎬️
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:23:55
Any questions? Comments? Thoughts?
<@dcantrell:fedora.im>
14:24:43
regardless of events or locations, I think running Flock immediately after another conference is asking a lot of participants. many will want to do both DevConf.CZ and Flock and it's a lot of time to be away from your day job, your family, etc.
<@dcantrell:fedora.im>
14:25:00
I feel many will be forced to pick one or the other to attend
<@dcantrell:fedora.im>
14:25:09
and I just don't like conferences competing like that
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:25:41
That was the feedback expressed by people who were strongly against sequencing Flock and DevConf CZ on the basis of the event itself (versus being opposed to Europe generally). However, the responses so far appear to indicate that a lot of people feel the *opposite*
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:25:58
That it enables them to choose both events and be involved with both, where normally they would have to choose one or the other
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:26:23
Does that change if we decided to do Brno as a city, instead of somewhere else, say Prague? Not sure.
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:26:39
More discussion will be needed once the survey results are officially in.
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:26:49
One idea that came to my mind though…
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:27:12
Some feedback shared was that the overlap of speakers and topics means that some things would be repeated between DevConf CZ and Flock
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:27:19
Which, I can see true in some cases and not true in others
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:27:21
However—
<@dcantrell:fedora.im>
14:27:26
that's a valid concern. I think we would see repeats
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:28:00
I was thinking that DevConf CZ might be a nice landing place for general talks and topics about Fedora in a wider user/developer context. While Flock might be a better landing place for things that are very, very specific to Fedora. Maybe a few presentations, but mostly workshops and hackfests.
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:28:36
So, I was imagining a DevConf CZ that had a "Flock to Fedora" track, or maybe just the existing Linux track. And then 1-2 days pause, followed by one day of Flock-only presentations, and two days of workshops/hackfests.
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:28:46
This is *only* an idea :)
<@dcantrell:fedora.im>
14:28:48
having done both for a long time, I can say I would pick Flock over DevConf.CZ simply because there are too many people at DevConf.CZ and it's always held in a terrible location where you can't get in to any talk
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:29:43
dcantrell: Is DevConf CZ a mission-critical event for you personally though? It sounds like you would fit into a bucket of people that _would_ be forced to choose between one or the other. If you were forced to make this choice, would it be detrimental for your objectives as a Council member?
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:29:49
Or a contributor in general?
<@mattdm:fedora.im>
14:29:51
Yeah, if I'm gonna prepare a talk, might as well give it twice!
<@dcantrell:fedora.im>
14:30:30
no, DevConf.CZ is not mission critical for me. I've stopped going in recent years because I wasn't getting anything of value from it. so yeah, I'd like choose between the two
<@dcantrell:fedora.im>
14:30:34
and I'
<@dcantrell:fedora.im>
14:30:52
ll say it again....2+ weeks away from home is a long time. maybe I'm the only one who doesn't hate home life so much :)
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:30:56
I also like this because some feedback on the sessions (not shown today) was that there was not much user-focused content. Which, on one hand, we don't really _do_ at Flock because it is about contributors. But on the other hand, contributor-centric content can be intimidating and difficult for people who want to get more involved to do so. The barrier to entry is high.
<@mattdm:fedora.im>
14:31:08
Did we ask any questions that might help us categorize the people who fit into each of these buckets? (Like, "Fedora is my full time job"?)
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:31:47
So, maybe for you, this would not be a terrible trade-off since DevConf CZ is not that appealing to you anyways. I wonder if others who feel forced to choose between the two would feel similarly?
<@mattdm:fedora.im>
14:32:12
You definitely aren't. Since Aoife isn't here, I'll speak for her... she doesn't mind travel but doesn't like it to be extended.
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:32:26
The amount of time spent traveling is definitely subjective :) Some people said that they only attend one or two global events a year, so this would be like the one big annual travel time for them
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:32:39
And I do suspect that is reflective of volunteers more than people paid to do Fedora, but that is just my hunch
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:33:07
No, we didn't. That would have been a good question. The only filter we have is whether someone identifies as a Fedora contributor, Fedora user, or both.
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:34:05
Nobody came at me with pitchforks or love letters here… I thought the responses might be more strong. But what about this idea?
<@dcantrell:fedora.im>
14:34:43
I am not a fan
<@mattdm:fedora.im>
14:35:17
I hate it. :) David is right about the venue. Plus, it will make the "everyone's got too many places to be at once" problem worse.
<@jonatoni:fedora.im>
14:35:50
Attending two conferences can be overwhelming 😅 It reminds me a bit FOSDEM and Council hackfest
<@mattdm:fedora.im>
14:35:55
I have _so many_ good ideas for this poll in retrospect. :)
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:35:56
Well, using the same DevConf CZ venue in Brno is not an option anyways
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:36:00
The university requirements are too tight
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:36:06
If we did go to Brno, we would have to go somewhere else
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:36:09
Not the university
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:36:22
Hindsight 20/20 :)
<@mattdm:fedora.im>
14:36:33
Yeah. A lot of us used to do: FOSDEM, a week of RH meetings, DevConf, and then maybe some more meetings. Very intense.
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
14:36:51
This is a terrible idea.
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:36:56
It is more or less still this way if you are a member of Fedora Council :D Well, maybe less RH meetings.
<@dcantrell:fedora.im>
14:36:57
yes, the week of RH "sweatlodge" meetings
<@mattdm:fedora.im>
14:37:10
And similarly polarizing (even among RHers). Some people thrive in that kind of thing, some people very much did not.
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:37:16
Why?
<@dcantrell:fedora.im>
14:37:17
which I am convinced only happened to justify the airfare and hotel for everyone to go to DevConf
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:37:28
Conan Kudo: Why?
<@mattdm:fedora.im>
14:37:45
I love my home life, but I also love Brno. So I didn't mind the longer stay. Also, had the luxury of bringing family along sometimes.
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
14:37:48
The biggest problem with anything circling DevConf is that it will suck the air out of everything else.
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
14:38:08
It's too big, and it's culturally not a community conference.
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:38:27
This is still a challenge with Flock content too. One feedback that appears universal so far is that Flock had _too much content_ this year. I know that we will likely reduce content, likely at least one less room and earlier finishes (not 6 PM).
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
14:38:32
It's a Red Hat engineering conference that happens to be open to the public.
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:38:37
I don't know if I can take much user-focused content at Flock 2025.
<@dcantrell:fedora.im>
14:38:45
I too have brought family to Brno. I even pushed a stroller on Brno sidewalks....turns out that doesn't work. But I've been to Brno a lot now. Other places sound interesting.
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:39:01
The benefit of being near DevConf CZ (or in 2026, maybe DevConf US) is that it is a better home for user/dev focused content that does not have a very strong contributor angle
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:39:24
In CZ, ~40% of attendees are Red Hatters.
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:39:31
I'm not sure that holds true for CZ
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:39:33
Not sure about US
<@mattdm:fedora.im>
14:40:16
My thought is: publish the schedule early, ask people to mark attendence (if the schedule program allows that?) and then put popular talks as plenary sessions in the mornings.
<@mattdm:fedora.im>
14:40:32
but that's a different topic :)
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:40:43
Even if we more clearly segment Flock as _contributor_ focused and funneled more user/developer content to DevConf? I don't know what I will do with user/dev content in the 2025 CFP. I will have to reject more of it this time.
<@mattdm:fedora.im>
14:41:03
That's actually a pretty good ratio, considering.
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
14:41:07
I don't think we should do that.
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:41:08
I'm not sure I agree with this, and I would have disagreed even before I worked at Red Hat :)
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:41:23
Should not do what exactly?
<@mattdm:fedora.im>
14:41:27
Do we know what % are local (or nearby) RHers?
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
14:41:38
Tilt it even further to being dev only
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
14:41:56
Tilt it even further to being contributor only
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:42:01
Yeah, timing is a thing I want to be better at generally at 2025, which is why this survey is going to be so important for shaping the final decision :)
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:42:20
Also, it is worth noting that the majority of respondents were either neutral or in favor of sequencing with DevConf CZ
<@mattdm:fedora.im>
14:42:26
I wouldn't say _dev_. I would say _contributor_. But I also think we should have a "new/potential contributor" track
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:42:27
The strong opposition, so far, is a minority
<@mattdm:fedora.im>
14:42:42
let's wait til the survey is done before drawing strong conclusions
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
14:42:56
Also, it's not about the numbers, it's about the actual responses.
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:43:06
I could see why you see it this way. But the hard fact is that Flock 2025 will have less content. The CFP was extremely competitive this year, and it will be even more competitive next year.
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
14:43:21
If everyone votes for jwf to jump off a cliff, would you do it?
<@davdunc:fedora.im>
14:43:48
-1
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
14:44:15
I'm reasonably certain two things would happen if we did this:
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
14:44:15
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
14:44:15
* We would get a reduced speaker/attendee set over time
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
14:44:15
* We would get more recycled talks rather than talks focused on the Fedora audience
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:44:18
I am just giving context :) There are lots of strong opinions here. I also am mindful that sometimes people who have thoughtful feedback are not always the most vocal. I am mindful of the old saying, the squeeky wheel gets the grease… and I don't want to be too biased toward doing things the way we have always done them.
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:44:33
For a number of reasons, we cannot keep doing Flock the way we have always done it
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:44:49
Both to evolve the conference and grow our community, and also so I don't rage-quit my job :P
<@davdunc:fedora.im>
14:44:55
Can we write a position paper on that?
<@dcantrell:fedora.im>
14:45:10
We should be thinking about our long term Fedora strategy and goals and how adjusting Flock will help us achieve those
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:45:10
Thanks David 🤣
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
14:45:27
tbf, I am also -1 to jwf jumping off a cliff :)
<@davdunc:fedora.im>
14:45:44
I think it's important to identify why we need to change.
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:46:13
This is fair feedback. I think something to think about with a new model for Flock might be being more intentional about newcomer inclusion. There were actually some fantastic ideas shared for how to do that in the survey that I have never thought of. But I think any changes to the Flock model does need to be very intentional of making sure we are leaving the door open for new people to come in.
<@davdunc:fedora.im>
14:46:24
I totally got the context, but just had to reach out there and vote "no"
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:46:52
This is probably a good action item for me to draft a CommBlog article summarizing and interpreting the survey results once they are concluded.
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
14:46:56
I also worry about a third outcome: we'd have less non-RH speakers
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:47:30
Yes, this. I think we are getting more clear on that but I would like to be more explicit. Ideally, I see the strategy as filling a large portion of this, but also, not quite a 100% fit.
<@davdunc:fedora.im>
14:48:14
We need _more_ Red Hat contributors who are community contributors as well. And I like what Conan Kudo is saying about the new contributor focus. We need younger members who are sticky.
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
14:48:18
We have been debating this with the openSUSE Conference too... In some respects the conference has become a bit stagnant.
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:48:36
I think the blind review does help partially mitigate this, but being in Brno or maybe Prague does involve a geographic bias because of Red Hat's presence in Brno. That said… I'm not convinced that is a totally bad thing, as long as we are not consciously prioritizing Red Hat engagements (which I don't see as a risk, given how our CFP process went this year)
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
14:48:36
It's come up in the last two oSC board Q&A sessions
<@farchord:matrix.org>
14:48:54
Strange, I thought Flocc was a conference for fedora contributors to announce/outline new technologies being/scheduled to be used in fedora right now
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
14:49:48
Flock is supposed to be a Fedora community conference. It evolved out of FUDCon, and has been gradually tilting toward being contributor-centric over the past ten years.
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
14:49:57
However, this was also during a time when Fedora was not popular.
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:50:01
2) My view is that Flock is a platform for Fedora contributors to network, collaborate, and advance goals that we are working on the rest of the year when we are all distributed and remote.
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:50:01
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:50:01
1) This is good feedback that we should message on the "why" of Flock much more :)
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:50:01
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:50:01
Farchord (Steve Cossette):
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:50:29
And a bit more than that, but that is a TL;DNR
<@renegadext:matrix.org>
14:50:33
I never associated flock with any sort of label
<@farchord:matrix.org>
14:50:36
yeah #2 was pretty much my general thought about it.
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:51:13
There was not a firm agenda for today, and this conversation has been useful (for me!). So I don't mind that this took all of our time, while the memory of this year's Flock is still fresh :)
<@dcantrell:fedora.im>
14:51:22
Flock replaced the previous regional FUDCon events. Those had fallen in to basically just developer hackfests in each session and not really good for new users or even contributors. There was also the problem of having multiple regional FUDCons and never getting all contributors in one place. The central event was a big move for Flock and I think that has worked out well. It is still largely developer focused, but that's also not a bad thing.
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:51:26
This surely won't be the last time you hear about this. The survey officially closes on Friday, September 6th.
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:51:39
If you are in this meeting and have NOT filled the survey… do it, and take this feedback into your responses :)
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:51:42
I am reading them all
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:52:18
I am going to move us to open floor, just to leave room for any other urgent/timely business :)
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:52:20
!topic Open floor
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
14:52:32
One thing that has changed since the pre-pandemic Flock is that Fedora is becoming popular :)
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:52:40
Are there any topics that folks want to bring up? Or, we could use the last eight minutes to keep going on Flock. I don't mind.
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:52:44
!group members council
<@zodbot:fedora.im>
14:52:47
Members of council: Aoife Moloney, asamalik, Aleksandra Fedorova, bt0dotninja, David Cantrell, FAS Fernando F. Mancera, Jason Brooks, jflory7 (@jflory7:fedora.im, @fca:fedoraproject.org), Jona Azizaj, Matthew Miller, Robert Wright, smeragoel, Akashdeep Dhar
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
14:53:16
That popularity also means we need to adjust the engagement model to keep feeding that
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:53:23
(If someone has a topic that is not Flock, you will have to speak up, otherwise we can keep plugging on Flock 🙂)
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:53:42
Yeah. I think being more intentional about including newcomers and newer folks is the strategy there.
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:53:56
I think that can fit inside of any of the other changes we are testing out in the survey, though.
<@mattdm:fedora.im>
14:54:21
_Not_ being a user conference was part of the original vision.
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:54:26
To the previous point about evolving the conference / not burning myself out, the way things happen now is currently not sustainable… I loved Flock, but those 2-3 weeks before Flock were the hardest weeks in my career thus far.
<@mattdm:fedora.im>
14:54:32
https://wordshack.wordpress.com/2012/07/24/the-future-of-fudcons/ is worth reading
<@mattdm:fedora.im>
14:54:50
(justin, can I #info that or do you have to, with the new zodbot?)
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:54:58
Anyone can :)
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:55:00
!link https://wordshack.wordpress.com/2012/07/24/the-future-of-fudcons/
<@farchord:matrix.org>
14:55:04
Right. I saw videos on what was portrayed in flock, nice conferences, but for your "average user" it would essentially be jibberish lol
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:55:20
There was one comment I really, really liked
<@mattdm:fedora.im>
14:55:22
^ is robyn bergeron's vision for Flock
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:55:23
Let me see if I can find it
<@davdunc:fedora.im>
14:55:28
thanks for that!
<@farchord:matrix.org>
14:55:40
Was there some Fedora booths at flock? Maybe portraying the new Fedora laptops?
<@farchord:matrix.org>
14:56:14
Maybe a spot where you could demonstrate how to build your own little media server on the cheap
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:56:14
Historically, we have not done booths. I think people value the hallway track more.
<@farchord:matrix.org>
14:56:26
Ah fair enough
<@dcantrell:fedora.im>
14:56:38
a Fedora show-and-tell block
<@farchord:matrix.org>
14:56:49
Essentially, yes!
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:57:05
Ooh, fun :)
<@farchord:matrix.org>
14:57:10
For users to portray their accomplishments with Fedora
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:57:13
Here are some thoughtful comments from the survey so far:
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:57:21
!info "Flock perhaps should more vigorously seek to include people involved in allied efforts, particularly working in parallel on other Linux distributions and in upstream projects for whom in person travel to a regional event is more feasible and cost effective than long distance travel. These are rare opportunities, made all the more rare by the concerns mentioned above. We should make the most of them."
<@dcantrell:fedora.im>
14:57:46
we would want people to have show-and-tell demos prepared before hand too for it to really work. make people submit ideas just like talks. but that could be fun
<@mattdm:fedora.im>
14:57:47
- _more_ Flock -- target 250 attendees, maybe 300.
<@mattdm:fedora.im>
14:57:47
What I would like to do (let's briefly imagine not exploding justin's brain) is:
<@mattdm:fedora.im>
14:57:47
- 6-month apart "Nest" conference -- virtual, and including user-focused content, target 1000+
<@mattdm:fedora.im>
14:57:47
- user content that we _send_ to bigger conferences
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
14:57:48
I have ideas about that :)
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:57:58
!info "Maybe one idea: a semi organized hallway track where a parts of the Fedora Project would hang out and at different times in the agenda and it was actively encouraged to have "none contributors" spend some time "shopping" for a fit. Another possible idea: give 5 minute lighting talks by reps from those different parts of the project highlighting skills that are used in that Working Group asking specifically for "none contributors" to come and talk more about how they could help."
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:58:30
+1. -1. +1. 🙂
<@farchord:matrix.org>
14:58:42
But then, for point #1, having Flock happen at the same time as defcon, wouldn't that increase attendee costs? (i.e. less hotel room availability, plane ticket prices, etc)?
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:58:49
Pls no more Nest, let's just get the Release Parties sustainable first 😅
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
14:59:04
not really, if it's far away from it
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:59:31
DEFcon overlap was feedback shared this year as a block, although we will _always_ inevitably conflict with something
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:59:37
There is no such thing as a perfect date
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:59:47
^^ I really liked these ideas.
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:59:54
OK folks! We are at the end of our slot.
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
14:59:59
Thanks for the active participation and discussion!
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
15:00:04
We are far from done on this topic :)
<@dcantrell:fedora.im>
15:00:07
thanks everyone!
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
15:00:12
You can expect more from me in September once the survey is officially closed.
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
15:00:18
Have a great rest of your week, folks! 👋
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
15:00:23
!endmeeting