2024-09-25 14:02:37 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !startmeeting Fedora Council - 2024-09-25
2024-09-25 14:02:38 <@meetbot:fedora.im> Meeting started at 2024-09-25 14:02:37 UTC
2024-09-25 14:02:38 <@meetbot:fedora.im> The Meeting name is 'Fedora Council - 2024-09-25'
2024-09-25 14:02:40 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !meetingname council
2024-09-25 14:02:41 <@meetbot:fedora.im> The Meeting Name is now council
2024-09-25 14:02:45 <@dcantrell:fedora.im> engineering all hands just ended, brain is mush, another meeting then?
2024-09-25 14:03:00 <@amoloney:fedora.im> Meetings will continue....forever
2024-09-25 14:03:01 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !topic Intros, welcomes, hellos
2024-09-25 14:03:10 <@jflory7:fedora.im> If this is your first time at a Council meeting, please say hello! If you have questions before we start the meeting, now is also a good time to ask.
2024-09-25 14:03:11 <@amoloney:fedora.im> !hi
2024-09-25 14:03:12 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Aoife Moloney (amoloney)
2024-09-25 14:03:16 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !hi
2024-09-25 14:03:17 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Justin W. Flory (jflory7) - he / him / his
2024-09-25 14:03:21 <@asamalik:fedora.im> !hi
2024-09-25 14:03:22 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Adam Samalik (asamalik) - he / him / his
2024-09-25 14:03:25 <@dcantrell:fedora.im> !hi
2024-09-25 14:03:26 <@zodbot:fedora.im> David Cantrell (dcantrell) - he / him / his
2024-09-25 14:03:42 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Good `$TIME_OF_DAY` folks :)
2024-09-25 14:03:49 <@jflory7:fedora.im> How is everyone doing this week?
2024-09-25 14:03:56 <@dcantrell:fedora.im> exhausted
2024-09-25 14:03:59 <@mattdm:fedora.im> Hectic. 
2024-09-25 14:04:11 <@farchord:fedora.im> Tired.
2024-09-25 14:04:22 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Phew. I know on the Red Hat Engineering side, the past couple weeks have been a bit of a rollercoaster.
2024-09-25 14:04:22 <@dcantrell:fedora.im> some pig
2024-09-25 14:04:25 <@bookwar:fedora.im> !hi
2024-09-25 14:04:27 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Aleksandra Fedorova (bookwar) - she / her / hers
2024-09-25 14:04:33 <@dcantrell:fedora.im> oh wait, I thought we were doing charlotte's web words
2024-09-25 14:04:40 <@farchord:fedora.im> dcantrell mattdm you guys want to make an Inside out movie? XD
2024-09-25 14:04:40 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Surprisingly I am not too exhausted, but I think I am in a post-Flock recovery coma still :P
2024-09-25 14:04:57 <@dcantrell:fedora.im> more like The Upside Down
2024-09-25 14:05:21 <@asamalik:fedora.im> caffeinated 
2024-09-25 14:05:52 <@mattdm:fedora.im> Good plan,, Adam
2024-09-25 14:05:53 <@farchord:fedora.im> It's rainy here, its not helping
2024-09-25 14:06:16 <@jflory7:fedora.im> A little icebreaker poll while I get an agenda together :)
2024-09-25 14:06:31 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I am thinking of seasons watching the colors outside start to change now
2024-09-25 14:06:43 <@mattdm:fedora.im> Where I grew up in Indiana, spring was best. I never understood why people liked fall. Gloomy, wet, cold.
2024-09-25 14:06:54 <@bookwar:fedora.im> Like this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zv-XNlE1s8E ?
2024-09-25 14:07:14 <@bookwar:fedora.im> (Sorry, prof. deformation)
2024-09-25 14:07:28 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I am also a spring kind of guy. Autumn is a close second. Winter is the gloomy, wet, cold time for me.
2024-09-25 14:07:28 <@mattdm:fedora.im> Here in New England, we have some days like thjat (e.g. today), but there's an extended period of mild weather -- cool at night, pleasant during the day, all the way through October.
2024-09-25 14:07:41 <@mattdm:fedora.im> Occasionally punctuated by a blizzard.
2024-09-25 14:07:42 <@asamalik:fedora.im> It's no longer hot (we don't have AC!), leaves are changing colours, what's not to like about autumn?! :P 
2024-09-25 14:07:47 <@jflory7:fedora.im> It is like this in Georgia right now too, except simply hot and humid in the day.
2024-09-25 14:07:48 <@mattdm:fedora.im> And the leaves are pretty.
2024-09-25 14:08:23 <@dcantrell:fedora.im> mattdm: it finally got to where we can shut down our AC and just leave windows open.  we are now in "no heat until trick or treat" mode
2024-09-25 14:08:24 <@jflory7:fedora.im> So, I could six folks who are here.
2024-09-25 14:08:38 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Well, seven including Steve Cossette [Farchord] :) Welcome!
2024-09-25 14:08:51 <@amoloney:fedora.im> I have a topic for todays meeting too Justin W. Flory (he/him) 
2024-09-25 14:08:53 <@mattdm:fedora.im> I'm not sure what climate difference makes it so, but where I grew up, there wasn't a "all the leaves are glorious at once" week like we have here.
2024-09-25 14:08:57 <@mattdm:fedora.im> Ooh, topics!
2024-09-25 14:08:58 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Let's go ahead and dive in.
2024-09-25 14:09:02 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Aoife Moloney: Is it a ticket or not a ticket?
2024-09-25 14:09:15 <@dcantrell:fedora.im> as someone with colorblindness, the leaves changing colors were never a big draw for me.  I just trust everyone when they say "oh those look pretty!"  yeah, ok, sure
2024-09-25 14:09:17 <@amoloney:fedora.im> yeah
2024-09-25 14:09:19 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I figured we could do a quick vote on tickets to discuss, there are a few
2024-09-25 14:09:26 <@amoloney:fedora.im> an old *chestnut*
2024-09-25 14:09:26 <@mattdm:fedora.im> We do need to talk about 1) AI, 2) KDE, 3) next strategy work
2024-09-25 14:09:27 <@ffmancera:fedora.im> Hi! sorry for being late
2024-09-25 14:09:30 <@ffmancera:fedora.im> !hi
2024-09-25 14:09:31 <@zodbot:fedora.im> FAS Fernando F. Mancera (ffmancera) - he / him / his
2024-09-25 14:09:32 <@mattdm:fedora.im> And tickets. 
2024-09-25 14:09:38 <@dcantrell:fedora.im> a vote on which tickets to discuss?  what are we, Novell?
2024-09-25 14:09:40 <@amoloney:fedora.im> mine is gitforge
2024-09-25 14:09:49 <@mattdm:fedora.im> But I don't think we should do an unstructured meeting on those three things.
2024-09-25 14:09:56 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Two of the three of those are definitely tickets and also what I wanted to discuss.
2024-09-25 14:10:06 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Git forge was on my short list too
2024-09-25 14:10:09 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Hey ffmancera!
2024-09-25 14:10:15 <@jflory7:fedora.im> OK, let's go ahead and do this thing.
2024-09-25 14:10:16 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !info Present: @amoloney, @jflory7, @asamalik, @dcantrell, @bookwar, @mattdm, @ffmancera
2024-09-25 14:10:25 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !topic Community announcements & news
2024-09-25 14:10:33 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Anyone have news, updates, exciting things to share?
2024-09-25 14:10:46 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Quick 5 minute share-out before we get into meeting discussions and tickets.
2024-09-25 14:10:59 <@jflory7:fedora.im> If you have an update, just go ahead and drop `!info` or `!link` into the chat!
2024-09-25 14:11:28 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !info === "Fedora Mentored Projects – Council Hackfest" ===
2024-09-25 14:11:34 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !link https://communityblog.fedoraproject.org/fedora-mentored-projects-council-hackfest/
2024-09-25 14:11:39 <@jflory7:fedora.im> ffmancera++
2024-09-25 14:11:40 <@zodbot:fedora.im> jflory7 has already given cookies to ffmancera during the F40 timeframe
2024-09-25 14:12:06 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Oh yeah, we also had this little beta thing happen :)
2024-09-25 14:12:20 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !info === "Announcing Fedora Linux 41 Beta" ===
2024-09-25 14:12:25 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !link https://fedoramagazine.org/announcing-fedora-linux-41-beta/
2024-09-25 14:12:33 <@jflory7:fedora.im> mattdm++
2024-09-25 14:12:47 <@mattdm:fedora.im> !info Containers SIG is now having every-other-week meetings about Konflux in Fedora
2024-09-25 14:12:56 <@mattdm:fedora.im> !link https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/konflux-meetings-every-other-wednesday/131996
2024-09-25 14:12:57 <@zodbot:fedora.im> jflory7 has already given cookies to mattdm during the F40 timeframe
2024-09-25 14:13:13 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Ooh, nice.
2024-09-25 14:13:21 <@mattdm:fedora.im> Justin W. Flory (he/him): do you have a link handy to the youtube video of the AI survey meeting?
2024-09-25 14:13:31 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Good idea, I can grab it
2024-09-25 14:13:47 <@mattdm:fedora.im> It seems like good practice to include those links in the next meeting
2024-09-25 14:13:59 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !info === "Fedora Council Meeting 2024-09-11: AI/ML Survey Analysis Discussion" ===
2024-09-25 14:14:04 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eOFeeJSD3Q
2024-09-25 14:14:14 <@jflory7:fedora.im> A nice smile in the thumbnail :)
2024-09-25 14:14:33 <@mattdm:fedora.im> Heh
2024-09-25 14:14:39 <@jflory7:fedora.im> OK, we are approaching the end of the 5-minute allotment…
2024-09-25 14:14:47 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Any other news, announcements, exciting things in Fedora-verse?
2024-09-25 14:15:01 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Going once…
2024-09-25 14:15:11 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Going twice…
2024-09-25 14:15:21 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Going thrice…
2024-09-25 14:15:35 <@jflory7:fedora.im> 💥
2024-09-25 14:15:44 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !topic Ticket-driven discussion
2024-09-25 14:15:50 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issues
2024-09-25 14:16:00 <@jflory7:fedora.im> OK. There was not an organized agenda ahead of today's call. That is OK!
2024-09-25 14:16:13 <@jflory7:fedora.im> With ~45 minutes remaining, I think we can get through three, maybe four, tickets if we are punctual
2024-09-25 14:16:18 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Here is what I am going to pitch.
2024-09-25 14:16:42 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I am going to put up a few Matrix polls for voting on whether to discuss a topic today or not.
2024-09-25 14:16:45 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Barcamp-style.
2024-09-25 14:17:00 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Let's leave five minutes to collect votes, and then we will go in order of the tickets with the most votes.
2024-09-25 14:17:04 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Here they come!
2024-09-25 14:18:29 <@mattdm:fedora.im> I'm voting -1 to discussing the big things, but we could spend a few minutes planning an actual future structured discussion.
2024-09-25 14:18:52 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I think these are the four highest priority tickets
2024-09-25 14:18:59 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Am I forgetting a ticket someone wanted to see up here?
2024-09-25 14:18:59 <@mattdm:fedora.im> dcantrell: Are you using a client that shows the polls?
2024-09-25 14:19:26 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !group members council
2024-09-25 14:19:26 <@farchord:fedora.im> *poll results
2024-09-25 14:19:29 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Members of council: Aoife Moloney, asamalik, Aleksandra Fedorova, bt0dotninja, David Cantrell, FAS Fernando F. Mancera, Jason Brooks, jflory7 (@jflory7:fedora.im, @fca:fedoraproject.org), Jona Azizaj, Matthew Miller, Robert Wright, smeragoel, Akashdeep Dhar
2024-09-25 14:19:32 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Please cast your votes in the Matrix polls above.
2024-09-25 14:19:40 <@dcantrell:fedora.im> yes, I even voted
2024-09-25 14:19:54 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Steve Cossette [Farchord]: As a participating community member in this meeting slot, you can cast a vote too :)
2024-09-25 14:19:54 <@mattdm:fedora.im> vote 0
2024-09-25 14:20:00 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Community feedback on interesting topics is helpful too!
2024-09-25 14:20:02 <@dcantrell:fedora.im> the only functional client for our Matrix setup is the Element web client which is...meh
2024-09-25 14:20:09 <@amoloney:fedora.im> its gitforge and kde on 4 votes coming out top so far
2024-09-25 14:20:57 <@amoloney:fedora.im> * correction - kde with 6
2024-09-25 14:21:03 <@jflory7:fedora.im> #504: 4 points
2024-09-25 14:21:03 <@jflory7:fedora.im> #502: 2 points
2024-09-25 14:21:03 <@jflory7:fedora.im> #486: 2 points
2024-09-25 14:21:03 <@jflory7:fedora.im> #500: 3 points
2024-09-25 14:21:10 <@mattdm:fedora.im> I do think we need to show some progress on the KDE request
2024-09-25 14:21:14 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Factoring in the -1 votes too
2024-09-25 14:21:20 <@amoloney:fedora.im> correction - kde with 6
2024-09-25 14:21:22 <@jflory7:fedora.im> So, let's do that order sort
2024-09-25 14:21:57 <@jflory7:fedora.im> #504, #500, #502, #486. I am putting the Flock one on priority because of the tied votes and I will use secretary/chair privilege to be the tiebreaker vote :P
2024-09-25 14:22:02 <@jflory7:fedora.im> (in that order)
2024-09-25 14:22:05 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Let's goooooo!
2024-09-25 14:22:16 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !topic #504: Request to upgrade Fedora KDE Desktop Spin to Edition status under the Personal Systems WG
2024-09-25 14:22:20 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/504
2024-09-25 14:22:21 <@mattdm:fedora.im> fyi I am taking unilateral action and deleting the anti-gnome rant from the ticket.
2024-09-25 14:22:56 <@jflory7:fedora.im> mattdm: Caution on deleting stuff though, maybe redirect to another more appropriate place?
2024-09-25 14:23:14 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I don't have a lot of context on this ticket but I wouldn't mind getting some opinionated context from others here
2024-09-25 14:23:23 <@mattdm:fedora.im> I might have left it if they'd followed the instructions and put that kind of thing in the Discussion thread. _There is already a redirect message_.
2024-09-25 14:23:24 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I understand the ask but it does seem very sensitive.
2024-09-25 14:23:28 <@farchord:fedora.im> It was a "fluff piece", didn't add much to the discussion, but I wouldn't say that it was "anti-gnome"
2024-09-25 14:23:35 <@bookwar:fedora.im> I was considering replying pointing that "choice of the default option" is offtopic, but I am find with removal too
2024-09-25 14:23:38 <@jflory7:fedora.im> mattdm: Ack, fair enough.
2024-09-25 14:23:52 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Maybe let me ask this
2024-09-25 14:24:01 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Is there a reason _not_ to promote KDE as an official edition?
2024-09-25 14:24:03 <@mattdm:fedora.im> I think we all know that people have strong feelings about desktop environments
2024-09-25 14:24:34 <@amoloney:fedora.im> so can I ask what we need to discuss? or can/should we jst vote in the ticket now and it is either approved or rejected
2024-09-25 14:24:37 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Always :)
2024-09-25 14:24:39 <@mattdm:fedora.im> Yes, there are reasons.
2024-09-25 14:25:10 <@mattdm:fedora.im> I can try and summarize if it would be helpful.
2024-09-25 14:25:22 <@dcantrell:fedora.im> so doing this breaks the previous decision fedora made which was to promote gnome as the tier 1 desktop environment.  the default.  do we care about that anymore?
2024-09-25 14:25:39 <@mattdm:fedora.im> Eduard brought up some of them in the topic.
2024-09-25 14:25:47 <@jflory7:fedora.im> mattdm: A TL;DNR on pros/cons would be helpful.
2024-09-25 14:25:57 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !link https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/fedora-council-tickets-ticket-504-request-to-upgrade-fedora-kde-desktop-spin-to-edition-status-under-the-personal-systems-wg/131059
2024-09-25 14:26:15 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Oh geez that is a lot of replies
2024-09-25 14:26:23 <@mattdm:fedora.im> 1. Our general policy (one edition, one audience) has been successful.
2024-09-25 14:26:48 <@mattdm:fedora.im> 2. It gives a clear path for new users, rather than starting the journey with a big choice
2024-09-25 14:27:02 <@mattdm:fedora.im> 3. We're already spread thin -- notably, Quality Team has concerns
2024-09-25 14:27:51 <@mattdm:fedora.im> 4. There is a Fedora-GNOME affinity that we've had for a long time (see GNOME Asia, for example)
2024-09-25 14:28:24 <@jflory7:fedora.im> What changes if a Spin becomes an Edition?
2024-09-25 14:28:26 <@mattdm:fedora.im> Yeah -- I'd like everyone voting to have at least absorbed that before voting.
2024-09-25 14:29:02 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Could there be two different audiences? A User Workstation and Developer Workstation? TBH, with my personal experience of trying GNOME and KDE out with non-tech people over the years, I find that they typically reach different audiences
2024-09-25 14:29:04 <@dcantrell:fedora.im> some questions:  does changing KDE from spin to edition functionally change anything for those users?  changing KDE to an edition creates more work for people--who are those people and what is the work?  can KDE as an edition now block or delay releases
2024-09-25 14:29:14 <@mattdm:fedora.im> Since KDE already has an exception and is release-blocking, not as bad as it could be... but increased prominence comes with higher expectations.
2024-09-25 14:29:32 <@farchord:fedora.im> Yes we'Re already release blocking, on arm as well.
2024-09-25 14:29:54 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Are we able to do a needs assessment on the gaps in coverage for Quality Team, and identify someone in the KDE WG who could advocate and do some work in this area?
2024-09-25 14:30:20 <@farchord:fedora.im> I am personally working on getting hardware to do testing on the arm-side of things. Unfortunately, all of that hardware wont help for 41... barring mainline support. I'm working on one that might though.
2024-09-25 14:30:31 <@dcantrell:fedora.im> I'm asking the questions, but personally I have no problems with making Fedora KDE an edition rather than a spin.  The project is as much about the users as the software and if there is a strong user base around KDE now on Fedora, great!
2024-09-25 14:30:54 <@mattdm:fedora.im> 2. Some of those people are the KDE SIG. But also: Quality, Rel-Eng, and anyone who has a package in the KDE install.
2024-09-25 14:30:54 <@mattdm:fedora.im> 1. Not functionally for users. However, comes with changes for contributors
2024-09-25 14:31:21 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I have felt for a long time that we could do more to build an affinity with KDE, especially given the renaissance of KDE in Fedora from say, 8-10 years ago. I remember the days when Fedora KDE was… a bit of a punching bag. But a lot has changed since those days. It is tough because money is not the easiest vehicle for me to build that affinity, but I want to at least try and do more.
2024-09-25 14:31:22 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> There's not that much change for those either.
2024-09-25 14:31:30 <@dcantrell:fedora.im> I think this would just lead to lots of confusion....this gets close to how RH names RHEL variants
2024-09-25 14:31:50 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> We've already been mostly operating like a WG for close to five years.
2024-09-25 14:31:55 <@mattdm:fedora.im> The Workstation team never reallllly leaned strongly into the Developer audience, and is in fact finding a lot of success more broadly. I think it would be a big mistake to make that split.
2024-09-25 14:31:55 <@amoloney:fedora.im> My PoV is that this is more about optics and not tech
2024-09-25 14:31:56 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> also... hi
2024-09-25 14:31:58 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> !hi
2024-09-25 14:32:00 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Neal Gompa (ngompa) - he / him / his
2024-09-25 14:32:03 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Is this specifically physical, consumer hardware or can it be virtualized?
2024-09-25 14:32:10 <@farchord:fedora.im> And to be fair, neither Gnome or KDE (Afaik) is especially targeted towards devs or workstations XD
2024-09-25 14:32:11 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Hey Conan Kudo 👋
2024-09-25 14:32:14 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Aoife Moloney: Hard agree
2024-09-25 14:32:24 <@mattdm:fedora.im> Note that I am trying to fairly represent the viewpoints I've heard. I have personal opinions too. 
2024-09-25 14:32:30 <@farchord:fedora.im> Physical consumer hardware. VMs are easy(ish) to spin.
2024-09-25 14:32:36 <@dcantrell:fedora.im> if we promote Fedora KDE to an Edition, do we still have something called "Fedora Workstation"?
2024-09-25 14:32:51 <@amoloney:fedora.im> ack mattdm  and thann you for the points too, thats what actually made it very clear to me
2024-09-25 14:33:14 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> There were people asking us to rename Fedora Workstation to "Fedora GNOME Workstation" to make it less confusing. It would also put it in alignment with everything else that has the desktop name in the variant.
2024-09-25 14:33:26 <@amoloney:fedora.im> I would think so, and I would see this as still remaining as the default too
2024-09-25 14:33:41 <@mattdm:fedora.im> dcantrell: Yeah, there is definitely some argument for making them Fedora GNOME [something] and Fedora KDE [something], where [something] _could_ be Workstation.
2024-09-25 14:33:47 <@amoloney:fedora.im> but there at least would be another *option*
2024-09-25 14:33:49 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Interesting. When I work with people who did grow up in the age of the Internet, I find that GNOME is a friendlier experience than KDE for this type of user. But for people who are Linux hackers and developers, I understand the appeal of KDE/Qt as an option. It offers a lot of customization that is not always there in GNOME
2024-09-25 14:33:55 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Interesting. When I work with people who did _NOT_ grow up in the age of the Internet, I find that GNOME is a friendlier experience than KDE for this type of user. But for people who are Linux hackers and developers, I understand the appeal of KDE/Qt as an option. It offers a lot of customization that is not always there in GNOME
2024-09-25 14:34:07 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> From my point of view, I would actually rather we didn't call it a "default".
2024-09-25 14:34:31 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I don't really like the idea of putting the desktop name in the name of the Edition…
2024-09-25 14:34:40 <@jflory7:fedora.im> It is jargon to a lot of people
2024-09-25 14:34:43 <@asamalik:fedora.im> the naming of Workstation vs. Desktop could be a little confusing 
2024-09-25 14:34:43 <@jflory7:fedora.im> And confusing
2024-09-25 14:34:46 <@farchord:fedora.im> I'm not a developer or a hacker really XD There'S alot of things I love about gnome and KDE, but chose KDE... honestly, I learned over time that there'S just no discussing tastes XD
2024-09-25 14:35:01 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I like edition names that instead center the audience they are intending to reach.
2024-09-25 14:35:04 <@bookwar:fedora.im> I think we should decide on whether or not we as Fedora Council agree that KDE should be equally represented in the project if it equally passes the requirements. If yes, than it is the job of the Fedora Design and Marketing folks to come up with the implementation.
2024-09-25 14:35:06 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> The main reason for this is optics, pushing Fedora KDE to the front page and to break past the glass ceiling we've had for the past couple of years.
2024-09-25 14:35:09 <@amoloney:fedora.im> I understand, but that might be a sticking point to getting to a win-win for everyone... :/
2024-09-25 14:35:15 <@asamalik:fedora.im> I personally like the choice. But then one of the reasons I'm on Linux is that I can make it more what I like. And I've been using it for 17 years so I know the difference there. I have no idea what that big decision right from the start do to newcomers...
2024-09-25 14:35:15 <@asamalik:fedora.im> From talking to people and just seeing what people use, there's a lot of KDE already. What's interesting that many people I asked actually install the Workstation Edition, and then add KDE on top of it, so their system won't even report it properly. (Although my sample size isn't huge...)
2024-09-25 14:35:15 <@asamalik:fedora.im> 
2024-09-25 14:35:36 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Steve Cossette [Farchord]: I see. I was wondering if some space in AWS would be helpful or not for that, but it sounds like probably no
2024-09-25 14:35:49 <@mattdm:fedora.im> 2. KDE is second most popular by a reasonably large margin.
2024-09-25 14:35:49 <@mattdm:fedora.im> 4. I think that team can deliver on the extra needs of being an edition -- as Neal notes, it's not far away anyway.
2024-09-25 14:35:49 <@mattdm:fedora.im> 3. KDE team has done a _lot_ of work in Fedora in the last few years, bringing together Fedora folks and upstream, and has a lot of positive energy.
2024-09-25 14:35:49 <@mattdm:fedora.im> 1. For Fedora, the desktop user segment is important, and big enough that we can allow two.
2024-09-25 14:35:49 <@mattdm:fedora.im> 
2024-09-25 14:35:49 <@mattdm:fedora.im> My personal feelings are:
2024-09-25 14:36:07 <@farchord:fedora.im> Well no, AWS VMs would help.... to a point. aarch64, like x86_64, has nuances in it's hardware.
2024-09-25 14:36:17 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> We lack capacity for automated testing in AArch64, which is primarily virtualized. I would like to resolve that somehow, but I don't know if we can as the Personal Systems team.
2024-09-25 14:36:21 <@farchord:fedora.im> A good example is the issues we've been having with the rpis and f41
2024-09-25 14:36:36 <@mattdm:fedora.im> Right, this is actually an argument for having a separate edition. Making it more prominent would make more people who want KDE start there, giving more accurate data.
2024-09-25 14:37:02 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I mean to say, people who are more tech-y and look for that customization tend to go for KDE in recent years, from my experience. People who don't want that and are okay with opinionated defaults go with GNOME. In my personal experience, mileage may vary
2024-09-25 14:37:13 <@mattdm:fedora.im> (People can use `dnf swap` to change the release info, and KDE enthusiasts probably _should_.)
2024-09-25 14:37:36 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> This is mostly undocumented and harder than it should be due to the double-release package thingy we do now for every variant.
2024-09-25 14:37:37 <@dcantrell:fedora.im> so shall we vote?
2024-09-25 14:37:43 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Erm, I don't know if this is sustainable either. Making KDE an Edition does not magically get people to show up in the Design and Marketing Teams, which are already stretched super thin right now.
2024-09-25 14:38:10 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> It does make it easier for me to attract people from the KDE venues to contribute in those spaces in Fedora.
2024-09-25 14:38:16 <@farchord:fedora.im> Yes and no.... I usually draw parallels between Windows vs Mac and KDE vs Gnome.... Gnome users tend to like simple design choices, similar to macs.... While Windows users may find themselves more at home on KDE. Or, I guess, Gnome with the "Dash to Panel" extension enabled.... but then isn't that kinda KDE-ey? XD
2024-09-25 14:38:21 <@mattdm:fedora.im> I do think bookwar 's point is important. If we _can't_ sustain it, we shouldn't do it.
2024-09-25 14:38:27 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> For example, the fedoraloveskde.org website was developed by a KDE person for us.
2024-09-25 14:38:32 <@jflory7:fedora.im> This aligns with my personal feelings TBH
2024-09-25 14:38:41 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> Nobody from Fedora marketing was involved in that site.
2024-09-25 14:39:04 <@jflory7:fedora.im> OK… on the testing/QA side, maybe we can have a friendly chat with our AWS friends on whether this would help bridge a QA gap.
2024-09-25 14:39:11 <@farchord:fedora.im> We also now got a sizeable amount of KDE devs using Fedora KDE for development now, which I find awesome!
2024-09-25 14:39:13 <@mattdm:fedora.im> 
2024-09-25 14:39:13 <@mattdm:fedora.im> Do we think we, as a council 
2024-09-25 14:39:13 <@mattdm:fedora.im> to take a vote now?
2024-09-25 14:39:13 <@mattdm:fedora.im> 2. And have enough feedback from impacted Fedora teams
2024-09-25 14:39:13 <@mattdm:fedora.im> 1. Understand the pros and cons well enough
2024-09-25 14:39:13 <@mattdm:fedora.im> 
2024-09-25 14:39:22 <@farchord:fedora.im> I would love that!
2024-09-25 14:39:26 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> There is no motivation for me as the Personal Systems/KDE lead to direct people to our Mindshare groups when it doesn't matter.
2024-09-25 14:39:43 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> But if we are Edition-level, then that changes things.
2024-09-25 14:39:50 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I need something more concrete to vote on
2024-09-25 14:40:08 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I am -1 to Fedora GNOME Workstation and Fedora KDE Workstation
2024-09-25 14:40:09 <@farchord:fedora.im> Conan Kudo: wasn'T there a talk also how it's difficult to get hw mfgs/oems engaged when kde is, and I will use colorful wording here, "just a mere spin"?
2024-09-25 14:40:15 <@amoloney:fedora.im> Yes, but I would like us to have a plan to support this change
2024-09-25 14:40:21 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> yes, it's a big problem
2024-09-25 14:40:22 <@mattdm:fedora.im> Conan Kudo: has Workstation bought into the "Personal Systems" umbrella? If they have, I'm okay with it, but I don't want more complication where it's not needed.
2024-09-25 14:40:34 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I feel like this is really important for Editions. Using the project names in the Editions is backtracking to pre-F21 days.
2024-09-25 14:40:52 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> You asked for a WG, I created one for KDE to live under. I intend to reach out to other groups over time where it makes sense.
2024-09-25 14:40:56 <@farchord:fedora.im> We asked the Workstation WG, they are content keeping the status quo, which honestly I expected
2024-09-25 14:41:01 <@asamalik:fedora.im> 
2024-09-25 14:41:01 <@asamalik:fedora.im> The reason I haven't put a +1 in the ticket straight away is that I don't know if we have the testing and support capacity. 
2024-09-25 14:41:01 <@asamalik:fedora.im> Other than that, I believe it's a solid choice to have both Gnome and KDE side to side as the two major desktop experiences people can have with Fedora. 
2024-09-25 14:41:03 <@amoloney:fedora.im> as in, we know how we are able to get around sticky points like 'The council agreed this, and now youre saying that. Why' and also what can we do to support impacted teams if we promote KDE to Edition
2024-09-25 14:41:08 <@dcantrell:fedora.im> I think we should stick with the original request.  Promote Fedora KDE Spin to edition status.  yes or no.  We've brought up a bunch of other whatifs, but those are not in the ticket.
2024-09-25 14:41:22 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> The Workstation WG preferred to remain completely separate
2024-09-25 14:41:27 <@jflory7:fedora.im> This is interesting, but I also don't want to make a vote on potential contributions versus actual contributions too
2024-09-25 14:41:57 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Because Fedora Marketing is basically me and Joseph, and a handful of folks who do drive-through contributions as they can…
2024-09-25 14:42:22 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Yes and yes, but I need more concrete proposal on what we are voting to approve
2024-09-25 14:42:30 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I do talk to Joseph, and we have brainstormed on stuff conditioned on becoming an Edition.
2024-09-25 14:42:36 <@asamalik:fedora.im> Can we first vote on whether or not we want to promote it, and then have a potential separate discussion about naming? 
2024-09-25 14:42:45 <@mattdm:fedora.im> We can do this one of two ways, I think. One: agree (or decline) to promote KDE to Editions status, and then treat things like the policy change as follow-up work; or Two, start with the policy change.
2024-09-25 14:42:55 <@amoloney:fedora.im> yes! +1
2024-09-25 14:43:10 <@bookwar:fedora.im> We previously had a policy that Fedora has only one main DE. We are voting to overturning that policy, so that it will open Fedora Marketing and Fedora Design to new contributions which challenge the status quo.
2024-09-25 14:43:34 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I don't really want to jump through more hoops for this. I spent a lot of time and energy as it is on this, as you are well aware.
2024-09-25 14:43:35 <@jflory7:fedora.im> The original request did not propose an Edition name. I need this to make a vote.
2024-09-25 14:43:41 <@amoloney:fedora.im> Darn you KDE - look what you caused for being a good spin! :p
2024-09-25 14:43:46 <@jflory7:fedora.im> The name matters 🤷
2024-09-25 14:44:00 <@bookwar:fedora.im> We can not get contributions into something which is not allowed by current policy.
2024-09-25 14:44:00 <@farchord:fedora.im> I would argue that if you'll undo the policy saying you can only have 1 DE, craft a set of criterias for which a spin can get promoted or you'll invite chaos....
2024-09-25 14:44:03 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> The one DE thing was always a bad thing to codify.
2024-09-25 14:44:05 <@mattdm:fedora.im> I think it feels more than a little aggressive to call it Personal Systems and not have Workstation included. I was expecting a KDE Edition working group.
2024-09-25 14:44:50 <@farchord:fedora.im> Maybe... just maybe.... this is why Ubuntu decided to make a completely separate name for their KDE distro
2024-09-25 14:44:50 <@jflory7:fedora.im> 
2024-09-25 14:44:50 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I know he is an ally and wants to support, but I don't want to increase demand on volunteer time with a narrow group of people who also have dayjobs and families and other non-Fedora things to keep in balance.
2024-09-25 14:44:50 <@jflory7:fedora.im> However, this is probably off-topic for the meeting discussion, we can figure this out in implementation. But I really do need an Edition name.
2024-09-25 14:44:57 <@farchord:fedora.im> instead of naming it "Ubuntu KDE"
2024-09-25 14:45:02 <@jflory7:fedora.im> +1 I want to promote
2024-09-25 14:45:07 <@mattdm:fedora.im> I don't think it was. I think it really helped with significant growth and renewed project interest. But times change.
2024-09-25 14:45:17 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> Canonical originally allowed unique names, they don't anymore.
2024-09-25 14:45:28 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> That's why only Kubuntu Xubuntu and Lubuntu exist that way
2024-09-25 14:45:36 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> That's why only Kubuntu, Xubuntu, and Lubuntu exist that way
2024-09-25 14:45:36 <@mattdm:fedora.im> Well, not just a separate name. It's technically a _whole separate project_, isn't it?
2024-09-25 14:45:37 <@jflory7:fedora.im> This is enticing to me, and I am willing to take a risk that this change will invite more of those people explicitly
2024-09-25 14:45:38 <@amoloney:fedora.im> We need to revisit the 'one desktop' policy. Times change, the world would be a sorry place if no policy was ever changed again and there is more than enough proof that a KDE Desktop is something that people in the Fedora project want
2024-09-25 14:45:53 <@mattdm:fedora.im> But sorry, I agree let's not argue name n ow.
2024-09-25 14:45:59 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> It is not. It's a subproject under Ubuntu.
2024-09-25 14:46:00 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I am totally +1 to overturning the policy
2024-09-25 14:46:07 <@dcantrell:fedora.im> this is like the twilight zone, I'm reading things from other people that I brought up earlier.  are we all parrotting?
2024-09-25 14:46:13 <@mattdm:fedora.im> yes.
2024-09-25 14:46:16 <@amoloney:fedora.im> So i think I agree with Matthews suggestion of policy change, then we can promote if we feel it meets the criteria https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/council/policy/edition-promotion-policy/
2024-09-25 14:46:17 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> yes
2024-09-25 14:46:17 <@jflory7:fedora.im> This is my concern too
2024-09-25 14:46:25 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> my excuse is I just got here though :P
2024-09-25 14:46:27 <@asamalik:fedora.im> KDEdora 
2024-09-25 14:46:29 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> haven't had time to read scrollback
2024-09-25 14:46:36 <@jflory7:fedora.im> This meeting chat is intense. I am in scrollback.
2024-09-25 14:46:59 <@farchord:fedora.im> Yo soy KDEdora? (Sorry for the Dora the Explorer reference)
2024-09-25 14:47:09 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> oh man, maybe Mythdora should be a thing again... :P
2024-09-25 14:47:12 <@dcantrell:fedora.im> Kedora?
2024-09-25 14:47:27 <@bookwar:fedora.im> mattdm: I don't quite understand what the options mean
2024-09-25 14:47:29 <@jflory7:fedora.im> mattdm: Good idea on the poll
2024-09-25 14:47:33 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !group members council
2024-09-25 14:47:36 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Members of council: Aoife Moloney, asamalik, Aleksandra Fedorova, bt0dotninja, David Cantrell, FAS Fernando F. Mancera, Jason Brooks, jflory7 (@jflory7:fedora.im, @fca:fedoraproject.org), Jona Azizaj, Matthew Miller, Robert Wright, smeragoel, Akashdeep Dhar
2024-09-25 14:47:43 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Please cast a vote here.
2024-09-25 14:48:14 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Acknowledging there are 12 minutes remaining in the meeting… here is what I propose.
2024-09-25 14:48:24 <@amoloney:fedora.im> the 2nd option is a bit at odds with the first one, or rather it might make more sense if you remove the word 'intention'
2024-09-25 14:48:44 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> Yeah, it makes it sound like it can fail regardless of choices
2024-09-25 14:48:57 <@mattdm:fedora.im> Aoife Moloney: technically, Ben will be sad if we do it that way, because the policy doesn't allow us to have two editions in the same space.
2024-09-25 14:49:00 <@bookwar:fedora.im> I'd like to see a proposal in the form of a statement from the council
2024-09-25 14:49:10 <@bookwar:fedora.im> "Fedora Council agrees that..."
2024-09-25 14:49:14 <@amoloney:fedora.im> I think we need to change the policy first
2024-09-25 14:49:18 <@mattdm:fedora.im> Let's do a video meeting on this next week.
2024-09-25 14:49:18 <@amoloney:fedora.im> because its policy :D
2024-09-25 14:49:23 <@jflory7:fedora.im> 1. Vote in the ticket today SPECIFICALLY on overturning the one desktop edition policy.
2024-09-25 14:49:23 <@jflory7:fedora.im> 2. Note a follow-up that we need to identify names for the Editions because optics are important.
2024-09-25 14:49:23 <@jflory7:fedora.im> 3. Schedule a future video meeting to discuss this in high-bandwidth, perhaps on this topic only.
2024-09-25 14:49:27 <@jflory7:fedora.im> ^^ Thoughts?
2024-09-25 14:49:32 <@mattdm:fedora.im> Does someone want to draft a strawperson proposal?
2024-09-25 14:49:32 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Because folks, we are really running out of time
2024-09-25 14:49:42 <@farchord:fedora.im> I tend to agree. It needs to be guardrailed, not just dismissed.
2024-09-25 14:49:44 <@jflory7:fedora.im> mattdm: How about this?
2024-09-25 14:49:55 <@mattdm:fedora.im> To change the policy we _need to follow our own policy_ https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/council/policy/policy-change-policy/
2024-09-25 14:50:04 <@mattdm:fedora.im> I do not want to make Ben Cotton sad.
2024-09-25 14:50:04 <@amoloney:fedora.im> it is, but its a bureaucratic loophole that will help us (council) with sticky questions
2024-09-25 14:50:08 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Yes, so this is part of my Step 1
2024-09-25 14:50:16 <@mattdm:fedora.im> And, seriously, this _is_ a big change that  needs community legitimacy.
2024-09-25 14:50:34 <@amoloney:fedora.im> yeah we need to to do this
2024-09-25 14:50:39 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Agreed fully, so we can vote on the intention to change, and then work on a policy draft
2024-09-25 14:51:01 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Someone tell me -1 now or else I am going to mark this as `!agreed` and then finish out our Council meeting.
2024-09-25 14:51:08 <@asamalik:fedora.im> OK let's a put a comment in the ticket about that first, then we take a vote there? 
2024-09-25 14:51:12 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Last chance :P
2024-09-25 14:51:26 <@dcantrell:fedora.im> you guys have completely burned up my coffee energy, I need a refill
2024-09-25 14:51:28 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I can take that action
2024-09-25 14:51:30 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I don't know when I can do a video meeting with Council
2024-09-25 14:51:41 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Four tickets for today was optimistic 🥲
2024-09-25 14:51:47 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> my Wednesdays are normally quite full
2024-09-25 14:51:47 <@amoloney:fedora.im> I dont think this seriously needs another meeting :/
2024-09-25 14:51:55 <@bookwar:fedora.im> Can we reformulate the 1st item as "Fedora Council agrees to lift the policy on having a single flagman DE in the distribution and to allow different DEs be equally promoted"?
2024-09-25 14:52:25 <@jflory7:fedora.im> OK, maybe drop my point #3, and wait for the policy change before making next steps or planning another meeting?
2024-09-25 14:52:38 <@amoloney:fedora.im> With the addendum of 'provided they meet the promotion criteria for Edition status'
2024-09-25 14:52:59 <@amoloney:fedora.im> This will trigger some revision of the Edition promotion requirements though too, fyi
2024-09-25 14:53:01 <@mattdm:fedora.im> Okay, how about this. I will draft a policy change proposal. We can vote on that _this week_ as a proposal, and then we'll do the announcement of that change.  
2024-09-25 14:53:12 <@jflory7:fedora.im> 2. Note a required follow-up in the ticket that we need to identify names for the Editions because optics are important.
2024-09-25 14:53:12 <@jflory7:fedora.im> 1. Vote in the ticket today SPECIFICALLY on the intention to overturn the one desktop edition policy. Begin Policy Change Policy and drafting a changed policy.
2024-09-25 14:53:12 <@jflory7:fedora.im> 
2024-09-25 14:53:12 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Acknowledging we have eight minutes to go now…
2024-09-25 14:53:15 <@jflory7:fedora.im> ^^ THoughts??
2024-09-25 14:53:31 <@jflory7:fedora.im> 1. Vote in the ticket today SPECIFICALLY on the intention to overturn the one desktop edition policy. Begin Policy Change Policy and drafting a changed policy.
2024-09-25 14:53:31 <@jflory7:fedora.im> 3. Once the policy is ratified and a name is revisited, vote again on the change.
2024-09-25 14:53:31 <@jflory7:fedora.im> 2. Note a required follow-up in the ticket that we need to identify names for the Editions because optics are important.
2024-09-25 14:53:31 <@jflory7:fedora.im> 
2024-09-25 14:53:31 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Acknowledging we have eight minutes to go now…
2024-09-25 14:53:42 <@mattdm:fedora.im> Because no one here is opposed, announcement of the change will include our intention to promote KDE.
2024-09-25 14:54:02 <@mattdm:fedora.im> I try to avoid it, but....
2024-09-25 14:54:23 <@jflory7:fedora.im> 
2024-09-25 14:54:23 <@jflory7:fedora.im> 1. Vote in the ticket today SPECIFICALLY on Fedora Council agrees to lift the policy on having a single flagman DE in the distribution and to allow different DEs be equally promoted. Begin Policy Change Policy and drafting a changed policy.
2024-09-25 14:54:23 <@jflory7:fedora.im> 2. Note a required follow-up in the ticket that we need to identify names for the Editions because optics are important.
2024-09-25 14:54:23 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Acknowledging we have eight minutes to go now…
2024-09-25 14:54:23 <@jflory7:fedora.im> 3. Once the policy is ratified and a name is revisited, vote again on the change.
2024-09-25 14:54:30 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> The reason I didn't do this is because I don't intend to make the WG KDE-only. The KDE SIG will be nested in the WG, and I have other groups I will be reaching out to bring their efforts under our umbrella.
2024-09-25 14:54:32 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I revised this with bookwar's suggested edit
2024-09-25 14:54:56 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Let's please move past the Personal Systems / Workstation WG discussion folks
2024-09-25 14:54:57 <@farchord:fedora.im> It makes complete sense for all WGs to be kept to the same standards
2024-09-25 14:54:59 <@mattdm:fedora.im> I'm going to file a ticket for this because I do want non-present council members to have a chance to object early -- it would be unfortunate if such an objection comes out in the following two-weeks
2024-09-25 14:55:06 <@jflory7:fedora.im> We need to wrap this discussion and make a meaningful conclusion
2024-09-25 14:55:31 <@mattdm:fedora.im> I need to get on a train, but I will do these action items this afternoon
2024-09-25 14:55:36 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Erm, I'm not sure I want to bundle those communications…
2024-09-25 14:55:42 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I don't feel like we are ready for the community engagement…
2024-09-25 14:55:58 <@farchord:fedora.im> You will get a Gnome vs KDE war
2024-09-25 14:56:12 <@mattdm:fedora.im> I think we should. Otherwise people won't get the impact.
2024-09-25 14:56:24 <@mattdm:fedora.im> We _should_ be ready for community engagement. This isn't new.
2024-09-25 14:56:31 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Yes…
2024-09-25 14:56:39 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> Yes. And I'd like to be able to start communicating with people about it as ramping up for upcoming cycles.
2024-09-25 14:56:40 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I am still trying to work on Code of Conduct stuff already 😭
2024-09-25 14:56:56 <@jflory7:fedora.im> My emotional bandwidth is really not there for a huge, mega community debate
2024-09-25 14:56:56 <@mattdm:fedora.im> I am intending to make it _VERY_ clear that we don't need a KDE vs GNOME discussion, and delete any comments that go there.
2024-09-25 14:56:58 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> Particularly the release party and associated events.
2024-09-25 14:57:00 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Not yet
2024-09-25 14:57:01 <@amoloney:fedora.im> Lets do the actions independently then. Proposal: Update KDE Edition request with a note that this is pending a policy change review
2024-09-25 14:57:10 <@amoloney:fedora.im> In the meantime, propose a new policy 
2024-09-25 14:57:14 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Aoife Moloney: +1
2024-09-25 14:57:24 <@amoloney:fedora.im> if the change policy passes, then we can vote on KDE
2024-09-25 14:57:26 <@amoloney:fedora.im> job done
2024-09-25 14:57:29 <@farchord:fedora.im> But yeah, I do agree we dropped alot on your plates, ladies and gents.... and sorry for that! XD
2024-09-25 14:57:31 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> Can we please timebox it to have a decision in place before GA and release party?
2024-09-25 14:57:36 <@dcantrell:fedora.im> we should support diversity among desktop environments
2024-09-25 14:57:43 <@mattdm:fedora.im> !action mattdm propose policy change
2024-09-25 14:57:50 <@amoloney:fedora.im> policy change policy requires 2 weeks so that should be doable
2024-09-25 14:57:50 <@jflory7:fedora.im> ## Proposal for Council to vote
2024-09-25 14:57:50 <@jflory7:fedora.im> 
2024-09-25 14:57:50 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Update KDE Edition request with a note that this is pending a policy change review. In the meantime, propose a new policy. mattdm takes the action to create a draft.
2024-09-25 14:57:55 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Folks, can we vote please?
2024-09-25 14:57:59 <@jflory7:fedora.im> +1
2024-09-25 14:58:08 <@amoloney:fedora.im> +1
2024-09-25 14:58:11 <@bookwar:fedora.im> We will get comments like this. But for any reasonable person it should be clear that the intent here is to actually prevent the `vs` part and to create space for different DEs to thrive.
2024-09-25 14:58:19 <@dcantrell:fedora.im> +1
2024-09-25 14:58:20 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !group members council
2024-09-25 14:58:23 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Members of council: Aoife Moloney, asamalik, Aleksandra Fedorova, bt0dotninja, David Cantrell, FAS Fernando F. Mancera, Jason Brooks, jflory7 (@jflory7:fedora.im, @fca:fedoraproject.org), Jona Azizaj, Matthew Miller, Robert Wright, smeragoel, Akashdeep Dhar
2024-09-25 14:58:24 <@jflory7:fedora.im> ^^^
2024-09-25 14:58:50 <@bookwar:fedora.im> +1
2024-09-25 14:59:36 <@mattdm:fedora.im> I _like_ the idea of a Personal Systems WG, Conan Kudo. I just don't think we're ready for it, and would like to not boil the _whole_ ocean.
2024-09-25 14:59:37 <@asamalik:fedora.im> +1
2024-09-25 14:59:40 <@jflory7:fedora.im> mattdm asamalik
2024-09-25 14:59:50 <@bookwar:fedora.im> And I like where this is going, as this was a big part of my Council Election Interview :)
2024-09-25 14:59:56 <@jflory7:fedora.im> mattdm: Matthew, please 🥹
2024-09-25 15:00:01 <@jflory7:fedora.im> We have one minute
2024-09-25 15:00:03 <@jflory7:fedora.im> And need to yield the channel
2024-09-25 15:00:07 <@mattdm:fedora.im> I don't think we need a formal vote on _this_ part. No one disagrees. 
2024-09-25 15:00:24 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I do, because I think we are doing a lot of talking past each other :/
2024-09-25 15:00:36 <@farchord:fedora.im> I agree.
2024-09-25 15:00:36 <@jflory7:fedora.im> But we are out of time.
2024-09-25 15:00:39 <@mattdm:fedora.im> okay. +1
2024-09-25 15:00:45 <@jflory7:fedora.im> We will have to continue this another time.
2024-09-25 15:00:51 <@amoloney:fedora.im> Were out of time, lazy consensus enacted - were pausing KDE request while we review previous DE policy
2024-09-25 15:01:01 <@mattdm:fedora.im> thanks for running the meeting Justin W. Flory (he/him) 
2024-09-25 15:01:05 <@amoloney:fedora.im> !action mattdm to draft proposal
2024-09-25 15:01:13 <@mattdm:fedora.im> thanks for pushing things to move Aoife Moloney 
2024-09-25 15:01:19 <@amoloney:fedora.im> !action @amoloney to update KDE request ticket
2024-09-25 15:01:22 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !agreed +6/1/-0: Update KDE Edition request with a note that this is pending a policy change review. In the meantime, propose a new policy. mattdm takes the action to create a draft.
2024-09-25 15:01:34 <@amoloney:fedora.im> !action Justin W. Flory (he/him) to have a rest after all that cat herding :p
2024-09-25 15:01:37 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Alrighty folks. We will see you next time!
2024-09-25 15:01:39 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !endmeeting