2025-12-03 15:01:06 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !startmeeting Fedora Council - 2025-12-03
2025-12-03 15:01:07 <@meetbot:fedora.im> Meeting started at 2025-12-03 15:01:06 UTC
2025-12-03 15:01:07 <@meetbot:fedora.im> The Meeting name is 'Fedora Council - 2025-12-03'
2025-12-03 15:01:10 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !meetingname council
2025-12-03 15:01:12 <@meetbot:fedora.im> The Meeting Name is now council
2025-12-03 15:01:23 <@dcantrell:fedora.im> !hi
2025-12-03 15:01:24 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Dave Cantrell (dcantrell) - he / him / his
2025-12-03 15:01:25 <@churchyard:fedora.im> !hi
2025-12-03 15:01:26 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Miro Hrončok (churchyard) - he / him / his or they / them / theirs
2025-12-03 15:01:27 <@t0xic0der:fedora.im> !hi
2025-12-03 15:01:29 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Akashdeep Dhar (t0xic0der) - he / him / his
2025-12-03 15:01:30 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !topic Roll Call
2025-12-03 15:01:31 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !hi
2025-12-03 15:01:33 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Justin Wheeler (jflory7) - he / him / his
2025-12-03 15:03:39 <@jspaleta:fedora.im> !hi
2025-12-03 15:03:40 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Jef Spaleta (jspaleta) - he / him / his
2025-12-03 15:04:19 <@jonatoni:fedora.im> !hi
2025-12-03 15:04:20 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Jona Azizaj (jonatoni) - she / her / hers
2025-12-03 15:04:40 <@churchyard:fedora.im> the next meeting agenda seems a bit outdated
2025-12-03 15:04:46 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Indeed it does.
2025-12-03 15:04:53 <@jflory7:fedora.im> This is my first day back at work after two weeks.
2025-12-03 15:05:01 <@jflory7:fedora.im> So I am not quite sure what is triaged for discussion today.
2025-12-03 15:05:06 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Do we have specific topics to go through?
2025-12-03 15:05:13 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Or should I do my own live-triaging of ticket topics?
2025-12-03 15:05:24 <@bookwar:fedora.im> !hi
2025-12-03 15:05:26 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Aleksandra Fedorova (bookwar) - she / her / hers
2025-12-03 15:05:42 <@t0xic0der:fedora.im> I see a couple of ticket associated with trademarks stuff and $(something_else)
2025-12-03 15:06:34 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !info Present: @jflory7, @dcantrell, @churchyard, @t0xic0der, @jspaleta, @jonatoni, @bookwar
2025-12-03 15:06:43 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !topic Today's Agenda
2025-12-03 15:06:59 <@jflory7:fedora.im> So, from past experience, three tickets is sort of the sweet spot
2025-12-03 15:07:16 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Especially when the agenda preparation is happening live in the meeting
2025-12-03 15:07:20 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I am going to pitch three tickets to discuss
2025-12-03 15:07:43 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Ticket 1: https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/549
2025-12-03 15:07:53 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Ticket 2: https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/552
2025-12-03 15:07:59 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Ticket 3: https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/553
2025-12-03 15:08:25 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Surely there are other topics, but would be good to give the Initiative ticket the time and attention before holidays take us all away, and the two last tickets are just new, and we should ACK them at least.
2025-12-03 15:08:54 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I really _want_ to discuss this ticket, but without advance prep and the lack of urgency on it, I think it can be deferred to another time. https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/550
2025-12-03 15:09:17 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Any other suggestions or opposition to this ad-hoc agenda? To be clear, I am proposing, in this order, tickets #349, #552, and #553
2025-12-03 15:09:26 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !group members council
2025-12-03 15:09:29 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Members of council: Aoife Moloney, Aleksandra Fedorova, Miro Hrončok, Dave Cantrell, jflory7 (@jflory7:fedora.im, @fca:fedoraproject.org), Jona Azizaj, Jef Spaleta, Petr Bokoč, pboy, Ryan Lerch, Akashdeep Dhar
2025-12-03 15:09:36 <@jflory7:fedora.im> All in favor, say aye, all opposed, say nay?
2025-12-03 15:10:04 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I'll give it 30 seconds and then bombs away 🙂 
2025-12-03 15:10:26 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Well, I hope these are not bombs. We don't need any fires this close to the end of the year.
2025-12-03 15:10:29 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> the tickets aren't loading?
2025-12-03 15:10:35 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> oh there we go
2025-12-03 15:10:38 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Conan Kudo: Pagure is loading for me?
2025-12-03 15:10:52 <@jflory7:fedora.im> nimbinatus: Around?
2025-12-03 15:11:18 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !topic #549: Renewal of the Fedora Image Mode Initiative
2025-12-03 15:11:21 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/549
2025-12-03 15:11:32 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> Justin Wheeler: it's more that this is the tail end of the window in which I get timeouts every day on fedora infra
2025-12-03 15:11:48 <@jflory7:fedora.im> OK, so this one is a bit old, but it is our last pending Initiative for the year, and we have some important Council planning activities in February, so this one is quite urgent IMHO
2025-12-03 15:12:32 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I am crawling through this a bit to get up to speed
2025-12-03 15:12:49 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !link https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XnifSMYT2hnpBKAxpp-bMjpNc3XYIJ5soq5Ngs-hriA/edit?tab=t.0
2025-12-03 15:13:05 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Erm, it is a Google Doc, which is forgivable, but we should definitely get this Wiki-ified later.
2025-12-03 15:13:27 <@jonatoni:fedora.im> btw we did discuss this initiative during our last meeting 
2025-12-03 15:14:20 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Oh. Oops. I was using ticket comments as recency bias. Did we vote?
2025-12-03 15:14:52 <@jonatoni:fedora.im> we didn't vote, but we just discussed about it
2025-12-03 15:14:57 <@jflory7:fedora.im> This initiative renews the effort to make bootc-derived OCI artifacts first-class citizens in Fedora, aiming to solve ecosystem fragmentation. Targeting production readiness by F45, it proposes a sustainable pipeline for base images and subprojects.
2025-12-03 15:14:58 <@jflory7:fedora.im> - Thread: https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/renewing-the-fedora-bootc-now-image-mode-initiative/167131
2025-12-03 15:14:58 <@jflory7:fedora.im> - Proposal: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XnifSMYT2hnpBKAxpp-bMjpNc3XYIJ5soq5Ngs-hriA/edit?usp=sharing
2025-12-03 15:15:02 <@jonatoni:fedora.im> and had time to ask questions
2025-12-03 15:16:06 <@churchyard:fedora.im> I am a bit surprised this is so tightly coupled with Konflux.
2025-12-03 15:16:13 <@jflory7:fedora.im> So, given that we have high quorum for today, and in two weeks, we are right before year-end holidays, I think it is worth trying to get a vote on this
2025-12-03 15:17:12 <@jspaleta:fedora.im> Justin Wheeler: i'm already syncing with nimbinatus  regularly to stay informed on blockers, and she's herdng the stakeholders.  The actual work is is sort of already ongoing really. The benefit to formalizing this is to ensure  is nimbinatus on council so we can stay ahead of anything that might need policy adjustments before they become hard blockers on anything.   
2025-12-03 15:17:25 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Also, looking at the proposal, I think it is worth focusing on the proposed outcomes and success criteria, in terms of the role of the Council voting.
2025-12-03 15:18:24 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !info 7. A collection of feature requests, bug reports, and experimental results for upstream bootc and Konflux.
2025-12-03 15:18:24 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !info 6. A formal recommendation for a new, permanent SIG or structure to own and maintain the base images and extensions, with community members identified to kick off
2025-12-03 15:18:24 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !info 5. (Stretch) A potential universal installer for bootc switch
2025-12-03 15:18:24 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !info 4. A designated space to host the base images and other artifacts
2025-12-03 15:18:24 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !info 3. A sustainable, documented Konflux pipeline for generating OCI artifacts
2025-12-03 15:18:24 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !info 2. Production-ready subproject artifacts (CoreOS, IoT, etc.) derived from those base images
2025-12-03 15:18:24 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !info 1. Official, production-ready Fedora base images
2025-12-03 15:18:24 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !info === Expected Outcomes ===
2025-12-03 15:18:24 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !info 8. A proposal or framework for an "experimentation" or "sandbox" SIG within Fedora, modeled after concepts from CNCF or Kubernetes.
2025-12-03 15:18:44 <@churchyard:fedora.im> the proposed outcomes all seem agreeable to
2025-12-03 15:19:14 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !info 4. Beta/nightly rolling releases of subproject artifacts (44)
2025-12-03 15:19:14 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !info 5. Fully supported production pipeline (45)
2025-12-03 15:19:14 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !info 6. Production (rolling) base images (45)
2025-12-03 15:19:14 <@jflory7:fedora.im>     Dissolved initiative with retro and documentation published (post-45)
2025-12-03 15:19:14 <@jflory7:fedora.im>     Permanent owners identified with clear documentation (post-45)
2025-12-03 15:19:14 <@jflory7:fedora.im>     SIG creation (post-45)
2025-12-03 15:19:14 <@jflory7:fedora.im>     Universal installer (stretch, 45)
2025-12-03 15:19:14 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !info 7. Production quality (rolling) artifacts from subprojects (45)
2025-12-03 15:19:14 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !info 2. A sustainable image hosting service (44)
2025-12-03 15:19:14 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !info === Success Criteria ===
2025-12-03 15:19:14 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !info 1. A clean development pipeline (44)
2025-12-03 15:19:14 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !info 3. Beta/nightly rolling releases of base images (44)
2025-12-03 15:19:21 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Oops,that was incomplete
2025-12-03 15:19:40 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !info 10. Permanent owners identified with clear documentation (post-45)
2025-12-03 15:19:40 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !info 8. Universal installer (stretch, 45)
2025-12-03 15:19:40 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !info 9. SIG creation (post-45)
2025-12-03 15:19:40 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !info 11. Dissolved initiative with retro and documentation published (post-45)
2025-12-03 15:20:39 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Well, ideally the Council would move more nimbly before work begins, but we should consider this context when taking a vote.
2025-12-03 15:20:54 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Does anyone have questions or things that feel necessary to bring up?
2025-12-03 15:21:19 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I admit that I am still wrapping my head around this a bit, but given the past context that this is a follow-up Initiative to a previous Initiative, and the scope seems well-defined, I feel positive to this
2025-12-03 15:21:29 <@jflory7:fedora.im> and Image Mode (or whatever we name it) is important for Fedora IMHO
2025-12-03 15:21:53 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Me too
2025-12-03 15:21:59 <@t0xic0der:fedora.im> Looks good from a 10k ft perspective - As long as they know what work entails as a part of this, we should be good 👍️
2025-12-03 15:22:13 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Did we have an Executive Sponsor identified yet?
2025-12-03 15:22:21 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Jef Spaleta: Is that you, given you have already been working with nimbinatus?
2025-12-03 15:22:45 <@jonatoni:fedora.im> yes, it is Jef Spaleta 
2025-12-03 15:23:10 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Super. Then let's put this to a vote now. Knowing y'all did discuss this last time anyways, it doesn't feel like rushing
2025-12-03 15:23:17 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I have some catching up to do, but that is on me.
2025-12-03 15:23:20 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Let me write a proposed:
2025-12-03 15:24:30 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> is Jef always the executive sponsor for initiatives?
2025-12-03 15:24:44 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> because it's kind of weird to me that he is the sponsor for this
2025-12-03 15:24:55 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !proposed The Fedora Council approves the renewal of the bootc Initiative with @nimbinatus as the Initiative Lead and @jspaleta as the Council Executive Sponsor. The Initiative is projected to conclude by the end of F45 release cycle, thereby concluding around December 2026.
2025-12-03 15:24:56 <@jspaleta:fedora.im> no
2025-12-03 15:24:58 <@jflory7:fedora.im> +1
2025-12-03 15:25:00 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !group members council
2025-12-03 15:25:02 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Members of council: Aoife Moloney, Aleksandra Fedorova, Miro Hrončok, Dave Cantrell, jflory7 (@jflory7:fedora.im, @fca:fedoraproject.org), Jona Azizaj, Jef Spaleta, Petr Bokoč, pboy, Ryan Lerch, Akashdeep Dhar
2025-12-03 15:25:06 <@jonatoni:fedora.im> +1
2025-12-03 15:25:23 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Outside of his fill-in role on the git forge Initiative for Aoife, this would technically be his first that he is sponsoring
2025-12-03 15:25:25 <@jspaleta:fedora.im> In fact I'm not taking another one on... Just 1 at a time for me.
2025-12-03 15:25:48 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> mmm
2025-12-03 15:25:51 <@t0xic0der:fedora.im> +1
2025-12-03 15:25:54 <@churchyard:fedora.im> +1
2025-12-03 15:26:04 <@t0xic0der:fedora.im> +1
2025-12-03 15:26:04 <@pbokoc:fedora.im> +1
2025-12-03 15:26:33 <@jspaleta:fedora.im> +1
2025-12-03 15:28:00 <@jflory7:fedora.im> bookwar, dcantrell: I believe y'all are the last two in quorum that we are looking for votes from.
2025-12-03 15:28:20 <@dcantrell:fedora.im> I thought I already voted
2025-12-03 15:28:24 <@dcantrell:fedora.im> well, +1 from me
2025-12-03 15:28:38 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Maybe you did, but I am going to make sure everything gets logged and recorded in the ticket this time
2025-12-03 15:28:58 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I didn't know y'all discussed this last time 🙂 
2025-12-03 15:29:11 <@bookwar:fedora.im> +1 from me too
2025-12-03 15:29:21 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !info Recorded votes: `+8`/`0`/`-0`
2025-12-03 15:29:21 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !info Council members with recorded votes: @jflory7, @jonatoni, @churchyard, @t0xic0der, @pbokoc, @jspaleta, @dcantrell, @bookwar
2025-12-03 15:29:32 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !agreed The Fedora Council approves the renewal of the bootc Initiative with @nimbinatus as the Initiative Lead and @jspaleta as the Council Executive Sponsor. The Initiative is projected to conclude by the end of F45 release cycle, thereby concluding around December 2026.
2025-12-03 15:29:37 <@bookwar:fedora.im> Though my concern of Konflux does stay, I don't want to block on it
2025-12-03 15:29:50 <@jflory7:fedora.im> OK, great. nimbinatus will be on-boarded to the Council soon.
2025-12-03 15:30:07 <@jflory7:fedora.im> This is important, because we have a hackfest, or newly-named Strategy Summit, to be planning 🙂 
2025-12-03 15:30:18 <@jflory7:fedora.im> and the summit could be a great venue for the bigger concerns that I missed last meeting
2025-12-03 15:30:23 <@jspaleta:fedora.im> that's not to say the exec sponsor can't change.  If we come to a point where nimbinatus would prefer a different exec sponsor, or there's a good reason for me to fledge this and pick up a different initiative, horse trading in the future as long as nimbinatus is cool with the change will be fine with me.  But i'm not going to pretend like I have the capacity to exec sponsor multiple things.  
2025-12-03 15:30:23 <@jflory7:fedora.im> OK. We are tight on time.
2025-12-03 15:30:29 <@jflory7:fedora.im> 30 minutes remaining. Let's go to the next two tickets.
2025-12-03 15:30:33 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Thanks folks for the quick vote!
2025-12-03 15:30:50 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !topic #552: Trademark Usage Approval Request for FedoraCVE.org
2025-12-03 15:30:56 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/552
2025-12-03 15:31:02 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Not sure if y'all discussed this one too last time.
2025-12-03 15:31:08 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I need a minute to review.
2025-12-03 15:31:20 <@jspaleta:fedora.im> noted.  I think the only way to start addressing those concerns is to start engaging and finding the specific problems.
2025-12-03 15:31:50 <@churchyard:fedora.im> I don't have a problem with the trademark request. presumably, the domain name should probably owned by Fedora/Red Hat if it isn't already
2025-12-03 15:31:51 <@bookwar:fedora.im> This is new
2025-12-03 15:32:40 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !link https://github.com/FedoraCVE/fedora-cve-dashboard
2025-12-03 15:32:44 <@bookwar:fedora.im> mhroncok: the original disclaimer on that site was that it is not affiliated with Red Hat 
2025-12-03 15:32:46 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Source code for the thing looks like GPL-3.0
2025-12-03 15:32:47 <@jspaleta:fedora.im> hmm.  Do we have any mechanism for that?  Definitely not a strong tie to the trademark usage right?
2025-12-03 15:33:15 <@t0xic0der:fedora.im> Not a problem with the trademark stuff but just like it was brought up internally, I think that the list could use some curation before it is shared in the open. 
2025-12-03 15:33:15 <@t0xic0der:fedora.im> 
2025-12-03 15:33:15 <@t0xic0der:fedora.im> QA folks mentioned that a bunch of these reports are either very specific to the package maintainers or are something that we can't do much about as downstream.
2025-12-03 15:33:17 <@jflory7:fedora.im> So, who is actually _responsible_ for this though?
2025-12-03 15:33:32 <@jflory7:fedora.im> "We recently launched FedoraCVE.org, a community driven, non profit initiative built by two experienced security engineers from Red Hat Product Security"
2025-12-03 15:33:39 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Is there a nonprofit actually running this thing?
2025-12-03 15:33:44 <@churchyard:fedora.im> it's not a blocker for the trademark thing. more like: yes, let's use the Fedora brand here, but we allow it for a project of Fedora
2025-12-03 15:33:46 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> No.
2025-12-03 15:33:52 <@t0xic0der:fedora.im> The Red Hat PSIRT 
2025-12-03 15:33:54 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Or is it being produced by Red Hat engineers as part of their dayjob work, therefore putting some responsibility on Red Hat?
2025-12-03 15:34:08 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I like the concept in general, but I want to be clear on who "owns" this and who we are granting trademark approval to
2025-12-03 15:34:11 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> From what I gather, it's 50/50
2025-12-03 15:34:23 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> at least the ProdSec leadership is aware and supportive of it
2025-12-03 15:34:26 <@churchyard:fedora.im> maybe it is produced by Red Hat engineers in their free time, hence non profit?
2025-12-03 15:34:50 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I would consider it "supported by Red Hat" but not necessarily "sponsored" yet
2025-12-03 15:34:53 <@jflory7:fedora.im> There is one. misc knows a lot about this, and he can offer some tips for the CLE folks on how to do this properly. The secret process involves asking for forgiveness instead of permission 🌚
2025-12-03 15:34:55 <@jspaleta:fedora.im> a project aspiring to have a larger community?
2025-12-03 15:34:57 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> supported = not shut down
2025-12-03 15:35:12 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I don't know about _that_, but it's something
2025-12-03 15:35:17 <@bookwar:fedora.im> This was discussed at FESCo meeting. But also not conclusive. There is some internal Red Hat communication regarding this effort, but it is currently seems to be a local initiative which may potentially grow into something more, but without clear plan at the moment
2025-12-03 15:35:26 <@t0xic0der:fedora.im> "Get things done, ask questions later" ;P
2025-12-03 15:36:06 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Maybe I should be careful about what I write in a logged, public meeting about this 😛 But anyways, it is not so critical to the whole effort.
2025-12-03 15:36:44 <@jspaleta:fedora.im> Something I need to have some friendly chats about? I'm still rebooting my brain from turkey coma. But I may have been aware of this as a project, just not the public website.
2025-12-03 15:36:46 <@t0xic0der:fedora.im> 
2025-12-03 15:36:46 <@t0xic0der:fedora.im> One of the things that came up was the maintainability of the dashboard entries and the team might have hires with their onboarding done via this action. 
2025-12-03 15:36:46 <@t0xic0der:fedora.im> Yeah, it is intended to be opened up slowly to the community with promises of reactivating the Fedora Security SIG while they are at it.
2025-12-03 15:36:53 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Centering back on the topic then, it seems like this is an initiative being worked on by two Product Security engineers at Red Hat, who want to contribute back upstream and make CVE awareness a greater thing in Fedora. I see lots of ways that a tool like this could be helpful, and I have no issue with the Fedora logo appearing on this site.
2025-12-03 15:37:15 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I think having the logo appear on the site adds a lot of legitimacy to it, and given the close connection to Fedora and Red Hat, I think the use of the trademark is both appropriate and fair.
2025-12-03 15:37:19 <@bookwar:fedora.im> I think we can not make decisions on this topic until we understand future plans
2025-12-03 15:37:21 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I think this needs to be hosted on Fedora infrastructure though
2025-12-03 15:37:33 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I don't know where it is now, but it needs to be here
2025-12-03 15:37:53 <@bookwar:fedora.im> Is it meant to be just a dashboard and nothing more, is it meant to be an initiative to interpret and act on the data on the dashboard?
2025-12-03 15:38:05 <@jflory7:fedora.im> From a trademark perspective, I think the thing we are _usually_ sensitive about is plans for commercial activity. I don't see that here, and even if they were confusing about who owns this, it seems clear to me that making money is not a goal of this site
2025-12-03 15:38:14 <@t0xic0der:fedora.im> This. We have very little information on where it is hosted apart from the source code itself and the folks who are behind it 🤷
2025-12-03 15:38:22 <@churchyard:fedora.im> I don't think this needs to be hosted on Fedora infra at all.
2025-12-03 15:38:28 <@jflory7:fedora.im> This would be good feedback to send upstream, but I don't think this is for the Fedora Council to decide.
2025-12-03 15:38:31 <@jflory7:fedora.im> We are not owning this work
2025-12-03 15:38:38 <@jflory7:fedora.im> We are just approving the use of the Fedora logo here
2025-12-03 15:38:44 <@jspaleta:fedora.im> that would be a great future action. Not sure that's required for trademark approval.   
2025-12-03 15:38:50 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> not yet anyway :)
2025-12-03 15:38:56 <@bookwar:fedora.im> I want to be careful here, because we should not be hostile to open research
2025-12-03 15:38:59 <@churchyard:fedora.im> in fact, we host one things on github pages and it works :/
2025-12-03 15:39:00 <@jflory7:fedora.im> If someone external made this and called it "The Big Hat Database of CVEs", it would still be cool, but maybe less official feeling
2025-12-03 15:39:16 <@churchyard:fedora.im> in fact, we host some things on github pages and it works :/
2025-12-03 15:39:25 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> the core reason is that we can keep the infra from blocking it from overpulling
2025-12-03 15:39:35 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> since we can gate access technically
2025-12-03 15:39:38 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Here, let me try to write a `!proposed` to get a temperature check on where we are feeling on this, and whether we are all on the same page
2025-12-03 15:39:40 <@bookwar:fedora.im> If someone wnats to analyze Fedora project, its data, code, bugs and so on, they should be able to do it independently, and we should not be possessive about it
2025-12-03 15:39:42 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> and it also forces the deployment to be open too
2025-12-03 15:39:45 <@churchyard:fedora.im> that's why I think the domain name needs to be owned
2025-12-03 15:39:51 <@t0xic0der:fedora.im> But the "unofficial-ness" should be stated explicitly, no?
2025-12-03 15:40:17 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> that's fine, but then it shouldn't be using the fedora name everywhere and looking like an official site
2025-12-03 15:40:26 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> it looks like our other sites, and that's an issue
2025-12-03 15:40:37 <@jflory7:fedora.im> (Also, FWIW, us saying "yes" today does not mean it is actually done. We _do_ actually have to talk to Red Hat Legal first about all trademark requests.)
2025-12-03 15:40:37 <@bookwar:fedora.im> That is what disclaimer was supposed to be doing
2025-12-03 15:40:40 <@jspaleta:fedora.im> until its in fedora infra... I think being explicit is good.  How the trademark is used in the interface is the question for me.
2025-12-03 15:41:10 <@jflory7:fedora.im> OK, here comes a `!proposed`, because I do want to make sure we leave time for this thorny Weblate ticket that we have yet to cover.
2025-12-03 15:41:31 <@bookwar:fedora.im> This is why I think we need to understand the plan before choosing whether we ask to "not look like Fedora" or to "become a part of Fedora". Both options are perfectly fine and possible.
2025-12-03 15:41:54 <@churchyard:fedora.im> I would assume that such approval can be reverted later if we decide the thing is no longer "proper"
2025-12-03 15:42:05 <@jflory7:fedora.im> absolutely
2025-12-03 15:42:39 <@churchyard:fedora.im> and I think "look like Fedora" is completely OK for presenting Fedora data
2025-12-03 15:43:05 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !proposed The Fedora Council conditionally approves the use of the Fedora logo on the fedoracve.org website, pending final approval from Red Hat Legal trademark experts. The Fedora Council RECOMMENDS the use of a clear disclaimer on the site that the site is not officially managed or run by the Fedora community (to avoid our Fedora Infra team getting support requests when there are issues). The Fedora Council RECOMMENDS transferring ownership of the domain to Red Hat IT so it can be maintained and renewed in perpetuity by those responsible for the Fedora trademark.
2025-12-03 15:43:07 <@jflory7:fedora.im> +1
2025-12-03 15:43:27 <@churchyard:fedora.im> +1
2025-12-03 15:43:47 <@t0xic0der:fedora.im> Ambivalent about the looks here, really. I have (re)written a couple of applications for Fedora Infra in the past couple of quarters and while they have the blue and white tint, nothing else really states the likeness problem 🤷
2025-12-03 15:43:52 <@t0xic0der:fedora.im> +1
2025-12-03 15:44:01 <@pbokoc:fedora.im> +1
2025-12-03 15:44:46 <@jspaleta:fedora.im> +1
2025-12-03 15:44:52 <@bookwar:fedora.im> "look like" meaning blue theme and styling - is fine. "Look like" meaning official fedora statement on the state of CVEs - maybe not.
2025-12-03 15:44:56 <@jonatoni:fedora.im> +1
2025-12-03 15:45:00 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> changing the color would be enough to make it look unofficial
2025-12-03 15:45:05 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> just not being fedora blue makes a difference
2025-12-03 15:45:35 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> it can be a off-brand blue for all I care
2025-12-03 15:45:59 <@bookwar:fedora.im> Blue color is not owned by Fedora.
2025-12-03 15:45:59 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I could make the recommendation for a more clear disclaimer on the state of CVEs stronger. WDYT?
2025-12-03 15:46:28 <@jflory7:fedora.im> It is not, but in the context of our registered trademark, it can be relevant
2025-12-03 15:46:50 <@t0xic0der:fedora.im> Sounds good. They could use the Fedora Project themes for all we care but as long as there is a textual statement of disclaimer that disconnects us from their endeavours - we should be good.
2025-12-03 15:47:03 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !proposed The Fedora Council conditionally approves the use of the Fedora logo on the fedoracve.org website, pending final approval from Red Hat Legal trademark experts. The Fedora Council RECOMMENDS the use of a clear disclaimer on the site that the site is not officially managed or run by the Fedora community (to avoid our Fedora Infra team getting support requests when there are issues), AND does not represent the state or management of CVEs in Fedora Linux. The Fedora Council RECOMMENDS transferring ownership of the domain to Red Hat IT so it can be maintained and renewed in perpetuity by those responsible for the Fedora trademark.
2025-12-03 15:47:07 <@jflory7:fedora.im> ^^ a slight amendment
2025-12-03 15:47:11 <@bookwar:fedora.im> Justin Wheeler: right, my recommendation would be 1) have a disclaimer about ownership, the way that they have it already almost works, but also additionally  2) have a disclaimer about the interpretation of the data.
2025-12-03 15:47:33 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I am assuming mhroncok Jona Azizaj (she/her) Jef Spaleta Petr Bokoc Akashdeep Dhar (Out sick) are still +1
2025-12-03 15:47:44 <@t0xic0der:fedora.im> Yep.
2025-12-03 15:47:51 <@pbokoc:fedora.im> Yes
2025-12-03 15:47:53 <@jflory7:fedora.im> WDYT about the revised recommendation?
2025-12-03 15:48:11 <@dcantrell:fedora.im> correct, we all know blue was created and is owned by Eiffel 65 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epnsRRPtoeU)
2025-12-03 15:48:17 <@bookwar:fedora.im> +1 from me
2025-12-03 15:48:23 <@zodbot:fedora.im> jflory7 gave a cookie to dcantrell. They now have 21 cookies, 1 of which were obtained in the Fedora 43 release cycle
2025-12-03 15:48:44 <@t0xic0der:fedora.im> Jk jk
2025-12-03 15:48:54 <@jflory7:fedora.im> dcantrell: 🤣 🤣
2025-12-03 15:49:04 <@jflory7:fedora.im> dcantrell: WDYT here?
2025-12-03 15:49:20 <@dcantrell:fedora.im> yeah, I'm ok with that.  +1
2025-12-03 15:49:29 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !info Recorded votes: `+8`/`0`/`-0`
2025-12-03 15:49:29 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !info Council members with recorded votes: @jflory7, @churchyard, @t0xic0der, @pbokoc, @jspaleta, @jonatoni, @bookwar, @dcantrell
2025-12-03 15:49:41 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !agreed The Fedora Council conditionally approves the use of the Fedora logo on the fedoracve.org website, pending final approval from Red Hat Legal trademark experts. The Fedora Council RECOMMENDS the use of a clear disclaimer on the site that the site is not officially managed or run by the Fedora community (to avoid our Fedora Infra team getting support requests when there are issues), AND does not represent the state or management of CVEs in Fedora Linux. The Fedora Council RECOMMENDS transferring ownership of the domain to Red Hat IT so it can be maintained and renewed in perpetuity by those responsible for the Fedora trademark.
2025-12-03 15:49:48 <@jflory7:fedora.im> OK. Great!
2025-12-03 15:50:06 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Jef Spaleta: Traditionally, the FPL runs the trademark requests to Red Hat Legal. Can I action you for that? Do you know how/where to do this?
2025-12-03 15:51:04 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I am going to quickly action Jef while his attention is elsewhere 🙂 
2025-12-03 15:51:09 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Oh, there he is.
2025-12-03 15:51:16 <@jspaleta:fedora.im> action me
2025-12-03 15:52:19 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !action @jspaleta Start a new ticket/email with Red Hat Legal (i.e. Richard Fontana, Jilayne Lovejoy, and Red Hat trademark lawyers) to request review of the use of the Fedora trademark on fedoracve.org
2025-12-03 15:52:25 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I think that's a wrap then.
2025-12-03 15:52:28 <@jflory7:fedora.im> 8 minutes left…
2025-12-03 15:52:34 <@jflory7:fedora.im> A third ticket is ambitious.
2025-12-03 15:52:41 <@jflory7:fedora.im> But there was not an open call for other topics.
2025-12-03 15:52:43 <@jflory7:fedora.im> So let's try!
2025-12-03 15:52:50 <@bookwar:fedora.im> I want just to mention also this topic https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/fedora-council-tickets-ticket-550-a-new-community-policy-doc-on-what-to-expect-from-the-fedora-community/173152/3
2025-12-03 15:52:59 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !topic #553: translate.fp.org requires legal T&Cs agreement of Fedora contributors
2025-12-03 15:53:05 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/553
2025-12-03 15:53:12 <@t0xic0der:fedora.im> Yeah, I think Justin Wheeler wanted to keep it for later or something
2025-12-03 15:53:37 <@jflory7:fedora.im> bookwar: That link is in the front of my mind for other reasons, but I don't think it is as urgent. I was working with Ankur in another context to open that ticket, and I think it will be a great one for us to work on together
2025-12-03 15:53:42 <@t0xic0der:fedora.im> This.
2025-12-03 15:53:44 <@jflory7:fedora.im> But we don't have the time to cover it today, I think
2025-12-03 15:53:46 <@jflory7:fedora.im> But we will
2025-12-03 15:53:52 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Anyways—
2025-12-03 15:53:55 <@jflory7:fedora.im> This ticket seems a little dicey
2025-12-03 15:54:09 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !link https://pagure.io/fedora-l10n/tickets/issue/45
2025-12-03 15:54:15 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !link https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org/thread/ADYMRIYYSIFTTKZBKKYAEOX4S2HLQNRI/
2025-12-03 15:55:07 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I really need to see the T&C's to comment here
2025-12-03 15:55:11 <@churchyard:fedora.im> the terms are... unacceptable 
2025-12-03 15:55:16 <@jflory7:fedora.im> It does seem absurd to transfer payment responsibilities to the user?
2025-12-03 15:55:52 <@jspaleta:fedora.im> So just for context... the terms have changed.
2025-12-03 15:55:59 <@jspaleta:fedora.im> So just for context... the terms have changed?
2025-12-03 15:56:30 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I just read it, I ain't agreeing to this
2025-12-03 15:56:34 <@jspaleta:fedora.im> The underlying issue here for us, isn't this particular service.. is how we should handle the situation when service terms change.
2025-12-03 15:56:37 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I don't want to be responsible for Fedora's payments
2025-12-03 15:56:39 <@jflory7:fedora.im> - "User: means any legal entity or natural person other than the Provider that utilizes the Service;" 
2025-12-03 15:56:39 <@jflory7:fedora.im> - "User Account: means a user account with a unique access code and password in the Hosted Weblate web interface. Each User Account can be used by only one User;"
2025-12-03 15:56:56 <@jflory7:fedora.im> "The User is obliged to pay the Price based on the received tax documents (invoices) issued by the Provider. The Price is paid in advance, and the invoice is issued and delivered to the User within 5 working days after the end of each relevant period."
2025-12-03 15:57:04 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Yeah I can see why people don't like this
2025-12-03 15:57:34 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Well, the story behind Weblate is complicated. For a long time, there wasn't a real business behind it. But in 2025, they finally moved to a registered business entity in the Czech Republic
2025-12-03 15:57:53 <@jflory7:fedora.im> So, I assume the timing is related, and probably comes with… all of the annoying legal headaches involved with being a business
2025-12-03 15:58:11 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Realistically, it should be differentiated here from the entity responsible for payment, i.e. Red Hat
2025-12-03 15:58:27 <@dcantrell:fedora.im> time to move back to transifex
2025-12-03 15:58:44 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I have a very hard time seeing Weblate chasing after FOSS contributors for money, but I think this is something we can use our role as advocates to hopefully make this better
2025-12-03 15:59:03 <@jflory7:fedora.im> The uh, tricky situation on how we did not pay Weblate for a really long time adds complexity here, but I think we can resolve this
2025-12-03 15:59:13 <@jflory7:fedora.im> OK, there is probably not much to discuss now that I actually dig into this
2025-12-03 15:59:25 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Since the bills are more in my ownership area, I think this is just an action item for me
2025-12-03 15:59:38 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I don't see much value in discussing this outside of the fact that, yeah, this is not really cool
2025-12-03 15:59:44 <@jspaleta:fedora.im> Are we paying now?  If we are paying now, need to figure out how to have a chat with them about this.
2025-12-03 16:00:10 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Siiiiigh. I think we are finally _about_ to pay or we just paid for the year. It is a long story that I cannot explain since we are out of time for this meeting.
2025-12-03 16:00:20 <@jflory7:fedora.im> IT and security policies suck sometimes.
2025-12-03 16:00:33 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> hilariously weblate is the outgrowth of suse's funded open source translation service
2025-12-03 16:00:37 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !action @jflory7 Engage in existing communications with Weblate about new T&C's and confusion over who is ultimately responsible for paying the cost of Weblate for Fedora
2025-12-03 16:00:42 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> like how transifex was ours
2025-12-03 16:00:46 <@jflory7:fedora.im> OK, so, we are at time.
2025-12-03 16:00:50 <@jflory7:fedora.im> and we do have to yield the channel.
2025-12-03 16:00:56 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I thought that was Zanata!
2025-12-03 16:01:03 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Thanks folks for your time and attention today!
2025-12-03 16:01:13 <@jflory7:fedora.im> This was a packed meeting and we did a good job at being mostly on time 🙂 
2025-12-03 16:01:16 <@t0xic0der:fedora.im> Justin Wheeler++ for chairing
2025-12-03 16:01:16 <@t0xic0der:fedora.im> Coolio, see you folks around!
2025-12-03 16:01:17 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> Zanata came after Transifex closed their code
2025-12-03 16:01:23 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Maybe we see some of y'all in two weeks or maybe not. If not, have a wonderful year-end!
2025-12-03 16:01:25 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !endmeeting