19:30:22 <darknao> #startmeeting docs
19:30:22 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Mar  1 19:30:22 2023 UTC.
19:30:22 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
19:30:22 <zodbot> The chair is darknao. Information about MeetBot at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Zodbot#Meeting_Functions.
19:30:22 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
19:30:22 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'docs'
19:30:30 <darknao> #topic Roll call
19:30:32 <darknao> #chair pboy darknao pbokoc py0xc3[m]
19:30:32 <zodbot> Current chairs: darknao pbokoc pboy py0xc3[m]
19:30:43 <pboy> .hi
19:30:44 <zodbot> pboy: pboy 'Peter Boy' <pboy@uni-bremen.de>
19:30:48 <darknao> .hi
19:30:50 <zodbot> darknao: darknao 'Francois Andrieu' <darknao@drkn.ninja>
19:32:30 <darknao> #topic Agenda
19:32:38 <darknao> #link https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/docs-meeting-agenda-2023-03-01/47227
19:32:40 <darknao> #info Announcements
19:32:43 <darknao> #info Quick docs update
19:32:46 <darknao> #info Open Floor
19:32:47 <darknao> #topic Announcements
19:32:57 <darknao> #info The category system for Quick Docs has been deployed on PROD
19:33:00 <darknao> #link https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/quick-docs/categories/administration/
19:33:02 <darknao> #info Next milestone is F38 (2023-04-18)
19:33:04 <darknao> #info F38 Beta Freeze is in effect until beta release next month (target: 2023-03-14)
19:33:06 <darknao> #info We use GitLab to track work: https://gitlab.com/groups/fedora/docs/-/boards
19:33:08 <darknao> #info First draft of Quick Docs contributors guide is available! Thanks pboy :)
19:33:10 <darknao> #link https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/fedora-docs/contributing-docs/contrib-quickdocs/
19:33:21 <darknao> do you have any announcement to add?
19:33:29 <pboy> nope
19:33:42 <darknao> #topic Quick docs update
19:34:06 <darknao> ok, any tickets or topics you want to talk about?
19:34:21 <pboy> Nothing from me at the moment, too. I'm still busy with my huge backlog.
19:35:08 <darknao> ok, nothing from me either
19:35:15 <pboy> Maybe, I'll have various minor questions, but I'll try on IRC
19:35:22 <pboy> on out channel
19:35:40 <darknao> #topic Open Floor
19:35:59 <pboy> nothing from me either
19:36:56 <darknao> sorry for not being very active lately, I'm quite busy with the new fedora website right now, but hopefully, thing will settle a bit after the beta release
19:37:35 <pboy> Yeah, I'm quite busy, too, with various Fedora topics.
19:37:49 <pboy> But it is mostly working alone in the the office.
19:38:27 <pboy> I'm sure, i'll have much to discuss in a short timeframe.(7 or 14 days)
19:39:38 <hankuoffroad[m]> .hello hankuoffroad
19:39:39 <zodbot> hankuoffroad[m]: hankuoffroad 'None' <allegrovelo@gmail.com>
19:39:56 <darknao> the first target for beta is in 2 weeks, so i should have more time in the same timeframe more or less
19:40:36 <pboy> Well, same for me regarding my Fedora Server engagement.
19:40:59 <pboy> Welcome hankuoffroad[m] !
19:41:41 <darknao> hi hankuoffroad[m]
19:41:54 <pboy> Anything from your side?
19:42:12 <darknao> and since I'm talking about the website, the new one is here https://fedora.gitlab.io/websites-apps/fedora-websites/fedora-websites-3.0/
19:43:08 <darknao> if you have any feedback (from a documentation standpoint) don't hesitate
19:43:20 <pboy> Yes, I think it is tjhe new getfedora.org portal?
19:43:38 <darknao> yes, it is
19:44:02 <darknao> for instance, we still have a link to the Installation Guide here: https://fedora.gitlab.io/websites-apps/fedora-websites/fedora-websites-3.0/workstation/download/
19:44:10 <pboy> And from a doc standpoint; We urgendly need a "Documentation" item in the header bar!
19:44:42 <darknao> I think we should either remove it or just rename it to "Getting Started Guide"
19:44:46 <darknao> or something like that
19:45:08 <pboy> Workstation now has it's own documentation!
19:45:20 <darknao> or actually likn to the workstation docs, yes, I just saw that
19:45:26 <pboy> https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/workstation-docs/
19:46:12 <pboy> Yes, that is their concept of a Workstation guide including installation guide.
19:46:35 <darknao> as for the documentation in the header, you already have a "Support" tab
19:46:56 <darknao> most links are dead here, but that will be fixed soon
19:47:45 <pboy> Nevertheless, we should have a Documentation item that links to our landing page docs.fedoraproject.org
19:48:01 <pboy> Support is mainly ask.fp.o
19:48:02 <darknao> feedback can also be posted here: https://gitlab.com/fedora/websites-apps/fedora-websites/fedora-websites-3.0/-/issues
19:48:57 <darknao> Ask is the only link working actually, but all other items would link to the docs site
19:49:21 <darknao> this section is basically the same as the home page of Docs
19:49:45 <darknao> Project Docs is dedicated to the bottom part of the Doc home page
19:51:22 <pboy> Yeah, doc is not the same as support. It is a term you are looking for regularly and should be at a visible place, same as Support or Communities
19:54:59 <darknao> that's valid, Ask already have its own section anyway, so maybe we can just rename this one to User Docs or the like
19:55:24 <darknao> and remove the Ask item from this section
19:57:20 <pboy> I think that's really essential. We need Documentation as well as Support in the header bar. It is the most visible place. And of course the other items, Communities, Contributors and Languages.
20:02:33 <darknao> do we have any other topic to discuss today or should we just close early?
20:02:55 <hankuoffroad[m]> where does Support lead to? Is it an additional feature?
20:04:13 <darknao> what do you mean? In the navigation menu?
20:04:19 <hankuoffroad[m]> yes
20:04:39 <hankuoffroad[m]> The term 'Support' in Fedora is not too familiar
20:06:00 <darknao> yeah, it could be renamed to Documentation instead in that case
20:06:10 <darknao> since this section is mostly about docs
20:07:46 <hankuoffroad[m]> i don't recall support was discussed. Could you send me the link if discussed somewhere then i'll catch up
20:09:25 <darknao> it was not discussed here, but you can give feedback on the website revamp topic https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/fedora-workstation-front-page-revamp-first-cut-looking-for-feedback/37169/112
20:09:40 <darknao> (it's the workstation one, but you can use that for the navigation menu as well)
20:10:07 <hankuoffroad[m]> ok thanks
20:10:57 <hankuoffroad[m]> i overlooked it.
20:11:20 <darknao> note that this is not about the documentation website, but the new getfedora website
20:11:40 <darknao> which link to the documentation one with this 'Support' section
20:12:49 <hankuoffroad[m]> Help = support?
20:13:13 <darknao> yes, pretty much
20:13:33 <darknao> the wiki is also included in this section
20:14:03 <pboy> Help/Support = interactive  -   Documentation = read yourself
20:14:10 <hankuoffroad[m]> help is more uniformly applicable to FOSS community. Support means obligations to give assistance to 'users', 'customers'
20:14:56 <hankuoffroad[m]> people expect higher expectation on support compared with 'help'
20:16:01 <hankuoffroad[m]> pboy: Help/Support = interactive - this equation appears arbitrary
20:16:40 <hankuoffroad[m]> will provide feedback to the link Darknao sent
20:17:13 <darknao> great, thanks hankuoffroad[m]
20:17:50 <pboy> hankuoffroad[m] It's not equal, yeah, but the main difference between Help/Support and documentation is interactivity.
20:18:19 <hankuoffroad[m]> i mean help is not equal to support
20:18:51 <pboy> OK, yes.
20:19:08 <hankuoffroad[m]> let me leave reasoned comment in discussion.
20:19:16 <pboy> but is is quitre similar, isn't it?
20:19:38 <x3mboy> .hello2
20:19:41 <zodbot> x3mboy: x3mboy 'Eduard Lucena' <eduardlucena@gmail.com>
20:20:45 <hankuoffroad[m]> pboy: absolutely not
20:21:11 <pboy> OK, I'll look at your comment.
20:21:17 <hankuoffroad[m]> it is really not about semantics. I worked in customer support sector for my life
20:22:19 <pboy> Yes, on reflection, support is more comprehensive and engaging.
20:24:03 <pboy> Welcome x3mboy, nice to see you here as well.
20:25:24 <x3mboy> Well, docs' writing is more or less part of what I do
20:25:42 <pboy> Sounds good.
20:25:54 <pboy> We have a lot to do.
20:26:53 <hankuoffroad[m]> hi x3mboy
20:27:09 <x3mboy> o/
20:29:23 <darknao> alright, thanks everyone for today
20:30:29 <darknao> #endmeeting