18:30:09 <pboy> #startmeeting docs
18:30:09 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Jun  7 18:30:09 2023 UTC.
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18:30:09 <zodbot> The chair is pboy. Information about MeetBot at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Zodbot#Meeting_Functions.
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18:30:09 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'docs'
18:30:21 <pboy> #topic Roll call
18:30:45 <pboy> Welcome everyone
18:30:45 <pboy> Let's wait some minutes for everyone to show up.
18:36:14 <hankuoffroad[m]> .hello hankuoffroad
18:36:17 <zodbot> hankuoffroad[m]: hankuoffroad 'Hank Lee' <allegrovelo@gmail.com>
18:36:33 <pboy> Welcome Hank
18:37:21 <pboy> Well, let's start
18:37:34 <pboy> #topic Agenda
18:38:01 <pboy> #info Action item followup & Announcements
18:38:20 <pboy> #info Continuing discussion and decision of Docs team work plan F39/F40 period
18:38:32 <pboy> #info Open floor
18:38:50 <pboy> Thanks to Hank for preparing this.
18:39:05 <pboy> #link https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/call-for-docs-meeting-agenda-2023-06-07-utc-18-30/83832/2
18:39:35 <pboy> #topic 1. Action item followup & Announcements
18:40:06 <pboy> #info Currently no open action items to follow up.
18:40:20 <pboy> But an announcement:
18:40:43 <pboy> #info This year we'll have a in-person Flock again, after 3 years.
18:40:51 <hankuoffroad[m]> I was always curious - what do we announce normally in meetings?
18:40:56 <pboy> #link https://flocktofedora.org
18:41:18 <hankuoffroad[m]> oki FOMO this time
18:41:53 <pboy> hankuoffroad[m] Various items, e.g. specifically what is ongoing
18:42:31 <pboy> Regarding Flock: I'll participate.
18:42:50 <pboy> Would be nice, if we could contribute as Docs team, too.
18:43:03 <hankuoffroad[m]> pboy: yessss
18:43:39 <hankuoffroad[m]> out of 20 Docs members who else will go?
18:44:21 <pboy> Good questions. Anyone around here?
18:44:48 <hankuoffroad[m]> What is call for proposal in this context?
18:45:32 <pboy> I don't know yet. Could manage to read all the annoucements.
18:45:50 <pboy> s/Could/Couldn't/
18:47:15 <pboy> If I fead it correctly, there is currently no final schedule.
18:47:46 <hankuoffroad[m]> * for proposal (CFP) in this
18:47:50 <pboy> So it would be a good opportunity to bring something up
18:48:13 <jwf> .hello jflory7
18:48:14 <zodbot> jwf: jflory7 'Justin W. Flory' <jwf@redhat.com>
18:48:34 <pboy> Welcome Justin!
18:48:36 <jwf> Right time, right place 😁 Hey folks
18:48:48 <pboy> Can you shed some light here?
18:49:13 <jwf> Oh lol, and I did join in at the perfectly right time
18:49:16 <jwf> Right, so, Flock…
18:49:32 <hankuoffroad[m]> If CFP is about presenting something on Flock, I could support you pboy to create a deck to represent Docs. I think you have enough hands in server, so you don't need my help.
18:49:32 <pboy> yeah FLOCK!
18:49:57 <hankuoffroad[m]> jwf: great to have you here:)
18:50:04 <jwf> <pboy> "Would be nice, if we could..." <- I would love to see a hands-on workshop from Docs at Flock. Presentations/talks are also fine, but especially for a team as important as Docs, I feel like that hands-on time is very important and you get to know people better too.
18:50:25 <jwf> <hankuoffroad[m]> "out of 20 Docs members who..." <- It might be worth some extra outreach to the existing folks with the CfP announcement to see who might be able to come.
18:50:28 <hankuoffroad[m]> * my help for Server WG.
18:50:46 <jwf> pboy: There is no final schedule, but we will start making decisions after 20 June.
18:51:01 <pboy> jwf OK
18:51:35 <jwf> hankuoffroad[m]: Not to totally discourage a presentation to bring awareness on something narrow and specific (e.g. Quick Docs maybe). But I am totally biased for workshops and it might even give me an excuse to come by part of a longer slot to help on something.
18:51:45 <jwf> Hope that covers the immediate Flock questions!
18:51:53 <pboy> jwf. would be a session about contributing to quick docs a possible thing?
18:52:14 <pboy> including to get some writing done, hopefully
18:52:40 <jwf> Maybe. For a workshop, first I would ask what the goal or desired outcome is. Do you want to have 5 articles reviewed and updated? Do you want to onboard new content? And so on
18:52:59 <pboy> jwf
18:53:04 <pboy> damn
18:53:07 <jwf> I think some live-writing would be good, especially if it is on topics where subject-matter experts could be conveniently around
18:53:16 <hankuoffroad[m]> in person workshop should work better for pboy without technical glitch :)
18:53:29 <pboy> jwf I think about 5-10 articles reviewed and improved
18:53:43 <jwf> hankuoffroad[m]: Heheh. When you trim and edit the clip from the release party, you almost would never know :)
18:53:46 <pboy> sorry avout my new keyboard
18:54:20 <hankuoffroad[m]> jwf: that's the beauty of non-linear video editing.
18:54:23 <jwf> pboy: Then I think that could be a good workshop. For Quick Docs, it would be great to do some content review and organization perhaps. The biggest thing of all though is that perhaps you could identify some topic leads or new maintainers to help out more with Quick Docs.
18:54:35 <jwf> It is definitely a very visible part of our docs, as I learned this weekend!!
18:54:54 <pboy> Yes it is.
18:55:18 <pboy> So, I'll prepare workshop about Quick Docs
18:55:27 <pboy> you can count that in
18:55:32 <hankuoffroad[m]> Sounds exciting. Although I can't be there in person, I will help pboy Justin W. Flory (he/him) to make Flock a success
18:55:38 <jwf> pboy++
18:55:38 <zodbot> jwf: Karma for pboy changed to 4 (for the release cycle f38):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
18:55:45 <jwf> \o/ Cookies!
18:55:56 <jwf> hankuoffroad[m]: Sorry that we will miss you hankuoffroad!
18:56:24 <pboy> Yeah, indeed !!!!
18:56:37 <jwf> pboy: Cool. Make sure it is in by 20 June for best results :) Also, I am happy to take a peek at an abstract or draft proposal and share feedback too
18:56:41 <hankuoffroad[m]> i'll do my very best for virtual and local activities.
18:56:52 <pboy> Hank, would be very positive if you could make it
18:57:14 <pboy> But virtual is better then not at all
18:57:36 <jwf> True.
18:57:43 <hankuoffroad[m]> pboy: I can only wish :) In my family, I am the only one with FOSS blood.
18:58:14 <hankuoffroad[m]> pboy: I'm also planning a local event in London later this year.
18:58:29 <jwf> Down the line, I would really like for Fedora as a whole to support more local and regional events. But the outlook for 2023 is tricky. At the very least, I will get you the swag for that!
18:58:39 <pboy> My wife will not participate, she will do the "Ladies propgram" as it was named in ancient times. :-)
18:58:57 <jwf> Cork is a lovely city…
18:59:09 <hankuoffroad[m]> jwf: hotel in Cork is sooo expensive
18:59:12 <pboy> Yeah, she knows.
18:59:22 <jwf> Anyways, I digress. If y'all have Flock questions, you can ping me in the Docs channel or in #fedora-flock / #flock:fedoraproject.org
18:59:50 <jwf> hankuoffroad[m]: It is waaay better than Dublin, but they aren't the most affordable either. Our room block should help get a more competitive cost though.
19:00:02 <pboy> OK, I will have questions for sure. I have to organize the Server WG, too.
19:00:15 <jwf> 👍️
19:00:20 <jwf> Then you know where to find me!
19:00:30 <pboy> Yes, thanks.
19:01:05 <pboy> Anything else regarding FLOCK?
19:01:20 <hankuoffroad[m]> nope
19:01:33 <pboy> OK. Then lets switch topic
19:01:51 <pboy> #topic Continuing discussion and decision of Docs team work plan F39/F40 period
19:02:20 <pboy> At the moment I have nothing special for Quick Docs.
19:02:32 <pboy> Hanks, thank for your summerize
19:02:42 <pboy> It's helpful for the planning.
19:03:04 <hankuoffroad[m]> i think the workshop in Flock will help raising awareness for QD and find experts on most needed articles.
19:03:19 <hankuoffroad[m]> pboy: no problem. happy to assist
19:03:58 <pboy> Yes, I hope we have the "bulk update" as you named it complete before Flock.
19:04:10 <pboy> At least 'll try hard to get it done.
19:04:28 <pboy> Se we can use flock to make a step into the future
19:04:48 <pboy> In stead of managing the old status
19:05:33 <hankuoffroad[m]> I'm thinking of semi-automatic process to update. It is theory, but I will try a few steps and need to go through the hurdle of text manipulation and scripts.
19:05:39 <pboy> OK, anything else regading Quick Docs?
19:05:53 <hankuoffroad[m]> no, we can move to next
19:06:09 <hankuoffroad[m]> * It is in theory, * theory now, but
19:06:32 <hankuoffroad[m]> pboy: yes
19:07:13 <pboy> Regarding semi-automatikc: I'm afraid development takes longer than a manual par force ride through the documents
19:07:41 <pboy> And ig would be a one-time product. For nothing else useful.
19:08:09 <hankuoffroad[m]> To be clear, it is bulk update of files. You may be right, but taking them through one by one seems inhumane
19:08:43 <hankuoffroad[m]> especially for technical community and programmers mindset
19:09:14 <pboy> yeah inhumane in some kind. On he other hand: It has to be done. And it is mostly boring copy & paste with some adjustments.
19:09:51 <pboy> If you would like to play with scripting, the automatic release notes project would be worthwhile!
19:10:03 <hankuoffroad[m]> pboy: hurting your fingers and eyesight
19:10:46 <pboy> I'm proud owner of a brand new MacBook Apple silicone.
19:10:51 <pboy> :-)
19:11:04 <hankuoffroad[m]> pboy: I'd love to, but will take time for such scripting.
19:11:18 <pboy> It's so expensive, it must be superb
19:11:49 <pboy> Regarding scripting: no problem, F39 is out of question for that. F40 / F41 would be perfect.
19:12:33 <pboy> Well, let's go the the text sub-topic:
19:12:47 <pboy> Contributor onboarding
19:13:03 <hankuoffroad[m]> pboy: release note automation needs to be assigned on capable hands. As I confessed to the world, I'm a script kiddy yet (don't know what commands do sometimes)
19:13:22 <hankuoffroad[m]> oki next
19:13:51 <pboy> hankuoffroad[m]  Agreed. Bud "learning by Doing" it great.
19:14:23 <hankuoffroad[m]> pboy: CTA proposal needs some input from you and a few more people.
19:14:47 <pboy> I like your plan.
19:15:04 <hankuoffroad[m]> Even if CTA is not agreed soon enough, I have backup plan that keeps me going and interested.
19:15:07 <pboy> What can I contribute?
19:15:54 <hankuoffroad[m]> Where to put CTA banner in Docs home page? I recall you hinted that there is no place to put banner.
19:16:17 <pboy> Depends on the banner.
19:16:47 <pboy> My idea is a very visible blob at the right margin.
19:16:51 <hankuoffroad[m]> 1. location & size, 2. Roles - are three personas I selected okay?
19:17:18 <hankuoffroad[m]> well I leave 1 to people with creative mind.
19:17:52 <pboy> I'm lost, at the moment. Where do I find the 3 personas?
19:18:07 <pboy> Sorry, if 'm not prepared enough
19:18:32 <hankuoffroad[m]> ah let me remind you of that - technical review, UX/UI and document maintenance.
19:18:56 <pboy> OK, yes I remembe those
19:19:27 <hankuoffroad[m]> I believe it is easier to reach to documentarian who are specialized in these areas.
19:19:47 <pboy> I've experience in the later two, yes, and a bit in the first (depending on the technique)
19:20:30 <pboy> Yeah, specifically document maintenance is a full time engagement.
19:20:42 <hankuoffroad[m]> I know it is controversial not to mention people without any experience. But Docs hackfest can be an opportunity for anyone who is interested in Docs. Other than that, we can focus on special groups.
19:21:07 <hankuoffroad[m]> pboy: that's what i think i do and you and more contributors recently.
19:21:42 <pboy> Yes, we do. But our progress is in really small steps.
19:21:51 <pboy> But, there is progress, fortunately
19:22:03 <hankuoffroad[m]> so as long as the messaging on who we are calling for and where to put campaign message, we are good
19:22:40 <hankuoffroad[m]> pboy: yes we do it steadily and find new opportunities
19:22:58 <pboy> I'm contemplating, what would be the next step?
19:23:26 <pboy> Would we need a designer first, someone like Emma?
19:23:46 <pboy> Or do we have to do specific preparations?
19:24:08 <pboy> I'm missing the overview right now.
19:24:11 <hankuoffroad[m]> i'm thinking to send out a reminder once a week to calling for feedback, and open MR with design and wording to get them approve by at least 5 reviewers.
19:24:27 <hankuoffroad[m]> * i'm thinking to send out a reminder once a week to calling for feedback, and open MR with design and wording to get them approved by at least 5 reviewers for the MR.
19:25:06 <pboy> Hm, 5 reviews is a lot, at least in the current situation.
19:26:22 <pboy> I suppose, we have to make a decision and produce a solution. And then wait for feedback. Just as we did with the docs home page.
19:26:36 <hankuoffroad[m]> If you have design ideas and copy, please let me know. I'll blend it with my template and share.
19:27:16 <pboy> Probably we should do it sep by step.
19:27:44 <hankuoffroad[m]> <pboy> "My idea is a very visible blob..." <- what is it about? could you maybe send you handwritten note or doodle?
19:28:09 <pboy> If we would consider a graohics block in the right margin. What would be a possible message?
19:29:09 <pboy> At the moment a have no specific idea. I just know, there is a lot of free space we can use.
19:30:06 <hankuoffroad[m]> maybe you can sleep on it and share your thoughts over next few days
19:30:24 <pboy> Yeah, good idea.
19:30:47 <pboy> BTW, I saw you made a beak.... room on matrix.
19:31:04 <hankuoffroad[m]> s/you/your/
19:31:23 <pboy> Can we use that? UJnfortunately, I couldn't care much about matrix so far.
19:31:25 <hankuoffroad[m]> yeah
19:31:42 <hankuoffroad[m]> will send you the link
19:31:48 <pboy> OK.
19:31:51 <hankuoffroad[m]> https://matrix.to/#/!fqiJNelYSHhEtzCQxi:fedora.im?via=fedora.im
19:32:28 <hankuoffroad[m]> thanks to all. meeting done?
19:32:32 <pboy> Thanks, I try that tomorroy
19:32:39 <pboy> Yes, time is up
19:32:55 <hankuoffroad[m]> bye
19:32:56 <pboy> See you soon - I hope
19:32:58 <pboy> bye
19:33:05 <pboy> #endmeeting