18:30:33 <pboy> #startmeeting docs
18:30:33 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Sep 20 18:30:33 2023 UTC.
18:30:33 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
18:30:33 <zodbot> The chair is pboy. Information about MeetBot at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Zodbot#Meeting_Functions.
18:30:33 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
18:30:33 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'docs'
18:30:42 <pboy> The object today is to provide an opportunity to discuss some current issues directly, quasi virtually vis-a-vis
18:30:52 <pboy> Therefore, let's see who is here.
18:31:00 <pboy> #topic Roll call
18:31:05 <hkl> hello
18:31:10 <pboy> Please, everybody who is lurking, say either ".hello2" or ".hello <fasname>"
18:31:23 <hkl> .hello hkl
18:31:24 <zodbot> hkl: Sorry, but user 'hkl' does not exist
18:31:36 <hkl> hello lab0
18:32:01 <pboy> hi hkl
18:32:11 <pboy> Zodbot is a bit bitchy again today
18:32:14 <hkl> Some people may have been confused between IRC and Matrix.
18:32:39 <pboy> maybe, yes
18:32:42 <hkl> we need to decide it
18:33:23 <pboy> Yes, "officially" it's still IRC, as long as we have no Matrix zodbot
18:34:02 <copperi> .hello copperi
18:34:06 <zodbot> copperi: copperi 'Jan Kuparinen' <copper_fin@hotmail.com>
18:34:24 <hkl> matrix native bot is in development, and DEI team ran the matrix meeting with it.
18:34:26 <pboy> Hi copperi!
18:34:48 <hkl> hello copperi
18:34:59 <copperi> Hi
18:38:14 <pboy> Oh, I just came into the wrong window, sorry. Here again
18:38:32 <pboy> Well, what should we discuss? There are some current topics:
18:38:44 <pboy> 1. Writing together virtually
18:39:02 <pboy> 2. What’s the next step in improving Quick Docs?
18:39:19 <pboy> 3. Administrating and maintaining Docs GitLab repos
18:39:32 <pboy> Anything else?
18:39:41 <hkl> nope from me
18:40:43 <pboy> hkl OK
18:43:34 <hkl> About the scheduling and invite for writing workshop, we are looking at next week 25 or 28 Sep. https://whenisgood.net/qrnxqwp
18:44:16 <hkl> could Peter and I spare some time after the meeting?
18:44:37 <pboy> Monday would be OK for me, too.
18:44:47 <pboy> Yes, we can.
18:45:21 <pboy> Obviously, there is nothing specifically to discuss.
18:45:22 <hkl> But Monday may be too short notice for attendeess.
18:46:20 <pboy> hkl Agreed. And on Thursday 28 we have mir attendees so far, if I read the numbers corectly
18:46:31 <pboy> mir -> more
18:47:04 <hkl> yes, Thursday 28 Sep works for me, too
18:47:50 <pboy> And if you publish / announce that tomorrow, that's a 1 week ahead.
18:47:57 <pboy> I think, that's OK
18:48:07 <hkl> that sounds reasonable
18:48:08 <pboy> Because we already discussed that a lot
18:48:58 <pboy> I think, I switch to Open Floor for formal reasons.
18:49:05 <hkl> yes
18:49:14 <pboy> #topic  Open floor
18:49:35 <hkl> .hello klavier
18:49:36 <zodbot> hkl: klavier 'Test Lab' <hanku.lee@gmail.com>
18:49:47 <pboy> So we can talk. And I would like to keep the meeting open.
18:50:03 <hkl> about topic 2 and 3?
18:50:48 <pboy> Well, anything that is interesting.
18:50:59 <hkl> I see more people show interest in Docs and they appear on matrix chat and send PR on Pagure and GitLab
18:51:19 <hkl> we just need to hold 'hands'
18:51:29 <pboy> :-)
18:51:47 <pboy> Yes, we should keep in contact
18:52:15 <pboy> This is the official channel we announced everywhere
18:52:21 <hkl> so they don't feel lone writers. I enjoyed rewriting some articles in cafe, but some coaching will help in the long run.
18:52:45 <pboy> So I would keep it open, ready to answer question or whatever.
18:53:06 <pboy> Until we change our official channel.
18:53:46 <hkl> official channel means IRC vs Matrix?
18:54:07 <pboy> Yes, officially it is IRC for meetings and decisions.
18:54:37 <hkl> i used matrix throughout until August
18:54:43 <pboy> Because we have zodbot to log and document.
18:55:24 <pboy> Yes, but I'm struggeling with all these different channels. It costs a lot of time.
18:55:29 <hkl> I'm just reiterating a latest info from Justin -
18:55:31 <hkl> You can follow
18:55:32 <hkl> zodbot development for progress on the new bots. The DEI Team hosted a meeting last week using the Matrix-native Meetbot, but it is definitely still in an early-testing phase. It is not quite ready for prime-time yet, but it is very close.
18:55:34 <hkl> If you want to have early access or test it out, the bot testing room is
18:55:35 <hkl> Fedora Zodbot. You can even run a test meeting with !startmeeting and !endmeeting in that room to give it a go.
18:56:11 <hkl> IRC is an additional channel for me.
18:56:43 <hkl> New people hang out in Matrix/Element, not IRC
18:57:09 <pboy> Maybe, we should give Matrix zodbot a try as a kind of aftermath for the writing workshop?
18:57:48 <pboy> Yes, new pewople do. "old" people often prefer IRC because of its effetivness.
18:57:54 <hkl> We can try weekly meeting, but not for workshop
18:58:25 <hkl> i do appreciate tools you are used to do not need to change.
18:59:35 <pboy> Yes, we could give it a try. I hope, the bridge will be working again, soon.
18:59:48 <pboy> Would make a transition easier.
19:00:37 <hkl> yes
19:01:04 <hkl> could we talk about Quick Docs and GitLab stuff?
19:01:11 <pboy> Yes!
19:01:48 <hkl> We need more interest from exprienced reviewers.
19:02:06 <pboy> Indeed.
19:02:37 <pboy> One idea is, to select one article and to ask specifically on devel list.
19:02:55 <hkl> technical review on content is like code review. if you build healthy relationship, you learn it quicker and newbies fell rewarded and stays on.
19:02:57 <pboy> I did that some time ago and got several good answers and informations.
19:03:36 <hkl> yess devel list was also suggested by good people - ankursinha and Justin.
19:03:59 <pboy> Yeah, but how to build successfully healthy relationships ?
19:04:02 <hkl> i have no idea on devel list as my tenure is short.
19:05:34 <hkl> what I mean by it and really grateful for is timely feedback  as a form of review comment and clear message, In face to face meeting, it is sort of similar.
19:05:51 <pboy> On devel list you mostly get good answers about development or application related questions.
19:07:02 <pboy> hkl Agreed! Unfortunately, everything is pretty frayed at the moment.
19:07:21 <hkl> would you initiate it anytime soon?
19:07:39 <hkl> what's frayed?
19:08:00 <hkl> devel list moving to discussion?
19:08:18 <pboy> Yes. As soon as we have our new design, I would like to select one or two articles and give it a try.
19:08:35 <hkl> so many changes in one wave
19:08:51 <hkl> it is hard to keep up. faster than my day job
19:08:58 <pboy> moving devel is controversial.
19:09:48 <pboy> Many seasoned developers see Matrix as too costly and too inefficient. Costs too much time.
19:10:30 <pboy> Something for people who like to discuss instead of get things done.
19:10:57 <pboy> Too much noise
19:11:16 <hkl> i'm more inclined to use the tool that helps me get things done.
19:11:45 <pboy> Most developers, too. And that is IRC and mailing list.
19:12:15 <pboy> for them
19:12:55 <pboy> Similar with Server WG. We don't iintend to swith wo Matrix or discussion.
19:13:25 <hkl> so if we narrow down what we can do for Quick Docs, what would you suggest?
19:14:39 <pboy> I'm trying to find someone, who can work on a new 'startpage and a new page structure for articles. darknao did already a lot. But his time is limited.
19:14:41 <hkl> for me, I'll adapt to tools.
19:15:16 <pboy> We have to figure out, what is possible in the next weeks.
19:15:25 <hkl> unfortunately, presentation and UX are far from my strengths
19:16:02 <pboy> Well., I'm quite familiar with those. But I'm already overcommited.
19:16:14 <hkl> i'll focus on tech review on subject I know and help newbies.
19:16:51 <hkl> ok then we need help from UX people in design team or elsewhere
19:16:55 <pboy> Yes, and hopefully on keeping Workshops going?
19:17:16 <pboy> That's my hope to revitalize Docs team
19:17:25 <hkl> sure no doubt keeping workshop up and running
19:18:00 <hkl> i'm pleased to work with you on that
19:18:16 <pboy> Me too!
19:18:26 <pboy> And Regarding the QD tasks, we have to make compromises for now.
19:19:00 <pboy> We will not be able to make graphical changes.
19:19:18 <pboy> So, the changes will be as minimal as possible.
19:19:41 <hkl> i can only make small changes now for QD. Once workhop is well established, I can spend more time with new aticles on QD and major review
19:20:53 <hkl> we got 10 min. i saw your message on GitLab admin stuff. could we touch on that?
19:20:53 <pboy> On Flock I met a former Docs intern. She is interested in design and docs quality. And plans to help od join docs team. Hopefully, that will be successful.
19:21:10 <hkl> nice, looking forward to it
19:21:20 <pboy> Yes, gitlab admin stuff is another issue.
19:21:59 <hkl> is issue piling up again? I haven't logged into GitLab for weeks
19:22:14 <pboy> Yes, it is.
19:22:23 <pboy> And there are some MR, too.
19:22:54 <pboy> I merged some. But others have problems. And I don't have time to investigate the problem.
19:22:54 <hkl> we have limited attention and efforts, so GitLab isn;t one of them.
19:23:14 <pboy> Not for me, at he moment.
19:23:28 <hkl> new people tend to spend more time in GitLab.
19:23:37 <pboy> There is some effort to improve the UI.
19:23:53 <hkl> although there are almost no user documentation to maintain
19:24:38 <pboy> Yes. There is again a MR for the outdated Admin Guide. It's really a mess.
19:24:48 <hkl> GitLab for Docs is docs build, CI, UX, and contributor guide. what else?
19:25:20 <hkl> i'm out of depth on admin guide/Anaconda.
19:25:21 <pboy> Well, docs home page, docs admin tools, and some more
19:25:57 <pboy> Anaconda is on getlab as well. But it is stalled untill the new version is ready
19:26:17 <hkl> UI/UX can impact site level, so powerful.
19:26:38 <pboy> Yes, it influences the efficiency!
19:27:37 <pboy> And the other thing is, the login works not good, I've always to fight with commercial cooky questions, etc. I'm quite annoyed.
19:28:04 <hkl> right. However, I'm a writer and tinkerer, not UX, so I have to stay on what I can do best.
19:28:05 <pboy> And all these things cost time.
19:28:55 <hkl> time is nearly before closing, can we agree time for AV troubleshooting for us?
19:29:01 <pboy> Well, ouir time is up. I suppose we still should discuss how to prepare the workshop?
19:29:14 <hkl> where do we move to?
19:29:35 <hkl> i think we have to leave this room
19:30:01 <hkl> video call?
19:30:05 <pboy> Yes. Let's continue tomorrow. It's rather late, 10pm
19:30:17 <hkl> ah forgot.
19:30:33 <hkl> oki ping me on email
19:30:44 <pboy> Yes. Maybe tommorow any time after 13:00 UTC
19:30:55 <pboy> Yes, I ping you by email tomorrow!
19:30:57 <hkl> how to exit irc room?
19:31:03 <pboy> Bye Bye!
19:31:14 <hkl> bye
19:31:16 <hkl> exit
19:31:24 <pboy> I close the meeting and then turn simple off#
19:31:31 <pboy> #endmeeting