<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
16:01:00
!startmeeting Fedora ELN (2024-03-22)
<@meetbot:fedora.im>
16:01:02
Meeting started at 2024-03-22 16:01:00 UTC
<@meetbot:fedora.im>
16:01:03
The Meeting name is 'Fedora ELN (2024-03-22)'
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
16:01:06
!meetingname eln
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
16:01:11
!topic Init Process
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
16:01:14
!hi
<@zodbot:fedora.im>
16:01:16
Stephen Gallagher (sgallagh) - he / him / his
<@yselkowitz:fedora.im>
16:01:19
!hi
<@zodbot:fedora.im>
16:01:20
Yaakov Selkowitz (yselkowitz)
<@tdawson:fedora.im>
16:02:57
!hi
<@zodbot:fedora.im>
16:02:59
None (tdawson)
<@tdawson:fedora.im>
16:03:24
Ya ... someday ... someday I'll fix that up ... just not today.
<@davide:cavalca.name>
16:04:00
!hi
<@zodbot:fedora.im>
16:04:02
Davide Cavalca (dcavalca) - he / him / his
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
16:04:45
!topic Agenda
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
16:04:52
Currently we have one topic on the agenda:
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
16:05:14
!info Agenda Item: ELN mass-rebuild to adapt to `%{rhel} == 11`
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
16:05:27
Any other topics that people want to add to the list?
<@nhanlon:beeper.com>
16:05:30
!hi
<@zodbot:fedora.im>
16:05:33
Neil Hanlon (neil) - he / him / his
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
16:06:35
Actually, I just thought of one additional topic
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
16:06:52
!info Agenda Item: Flock to Fedora CfP
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
16:07:18
Let's get rolling, then
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
16:07:35
!topic ELN mass-rebuild to adapt to `%{rhel} == 11`
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
16:08:17
As discussed in previous meetings, we intended to schedule a mass-rebuild after the F40 fork. We forgot about this until now, but it's probably something we should plan for in the relatively near future
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
16:08:48
My main question about this is whether there are any other toolchain changes coming in the near future that we might want to schedule around.
<@yselkowitz:fedora.im>
16:09:58
what are we looking to gain from another mass-rebuild?
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
16:10:05
yselkowitz: I want this to be a fire-and-forget rebuild; I don't think we (ELN SIG) needs to be responsible for cleaning up fallout
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
16:10:27
yselkowitz: Among other things, we probably wouldn
<@yselkowitz:fedora.im>
16:10:41
sorry but there is no such thing
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
16:10:41
't have had so many issues around dnf5 if we'd done this sooner
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
16:11:31
That ecosystem had a bunch of `>10` conditionals that were pretty broken
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
16:12:06
I think I've fixed enough of them up at this point, but I'm sure there are other problems just waiting to sneak up on us
<@yselkowitz:fedora.im>
16:13:20
dnf was a special case
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
16:15:12
yselkowitz: Let me reverse the question: what do you think is the *cost* of doing a mass-rebuild at this point.
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
16:15:19
yselkowitz: Let me reverse the question: what do you think is the _cost_ of doing a mass-rebuild at this point?
<@yselkowitz:fedora.im>
16:15:38
besides my sanity?
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:16:06
!hi
<@zodbot:fedora.im>
16:16:07
Neal Gompa (ngompa) - he / him / his
<@yselkowitz:fedora.im>
16:16:23
if there is nothing to gain besides looking for problems, it can wait
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
16:16:36
From my perspective, it's the difference between early recognition of issues or waiting until the packages are rebuilt for other reasons.
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
16:17:15
yselkowitz: You joined this team in the first place. Your sanity is already in question :)
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:18:08
the main gain is getting a RHELish build of things with frame pointers on
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
16:18:54
Conan Kudo: I recall being swayed by your prior arguments, but I cannot recall what they were. Could you remind me?
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:19:19
well, let's see if I can recall them with a head cold :)
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
16:19:34
Oh, that’s right! That’s a big one.
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:20:01
aside from that, there are a ton of packages with rhel conditionals that flip between rhel 10 and rhel 11
<@yselkowitz:fedora.im>
16:20:17
such as?
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:20:25
well the multimedia stuff mainly
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:20:30
pipewire _et al_
<@yselkowitz:fedora.im>
16:20:54
pipewire already has a build
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:21:37
and frankly, we agreed to schedule a mass build after branching
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:21:59
precisely because of build flags changing between 10 and 11
<@yselkowitz:fedora.im>
16:22:13
and I warned you then that I was not going to be in favour of one soon
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
16:22:29
Sorry, desktop crashed. Catching back up…
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:22:39
and consistently having everything switch over so folks like myself and Davide Cavalca can actually do stuff with it right away
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:22:57
it allows us to gather data and work on things for the future
<@yselkowitz:fedora.im>
16:23:31
just to put things in perspective, dec-feb were 3 months of non-stop mass rebuilds
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:24:34
and that was because of all kind of things going wrong on the Fedora side
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:25:04
that's irrespective of the context of when the RHEL number is bumped for ELN, a mass build needs to happen
<@yselkowitz:fedora.im>
16:25:07
and in a few weeks I have holidays so I won't be around for a bit
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:25:37
it doesn't have to be right now, but I just want a date scheduled
<@yselkowitz:fedora.im>
16:25:50
why? mass rebuilds are generally before we branch, not right after
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:26:21
for Fedora, we do that because all the changes happen _before_ and are in effect _before_ branching
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:26:24
ELN is backwards from that
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:26:39
things go into effect _after_ things are bumped in a continuous fashion
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
16:26:49
In the specific case of the `%rhel` macro, that does change the calculus some
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:27:00
right, effectively that is a branching event
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:27:07
and it changes the machinery
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:27:28
when you change the machinery, you _need_ a build otherwise you don't know what the effects are
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
16:28:28
I understand yselkowitz's position here: mass-rebuilds inevitably come with fallout that needs to be addressed.
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
16:28:37
If nothing else, *something* will break our composes and need fixing
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
16:28:48
So we need to figure out when we have the capacity to handle that fallout.
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:29:04
we need it to not be a Yaakov-only thing too
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:29:14
there's _no_ reason this should be handled _just_ by him
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
16:29:16
In the past, that's been pretty much only Yaakov or I working to fix it.
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
16:29:29
Exactly, but that takes commitment from additional people :)
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:29:39
last cycle, I spent a lot of time fixing the multimedia stack when it broke multiple times throughout the ELN -> C9S process
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
16:29:59
I'll admit, I didn't notice, but that probably speaks to you efficiency :)
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:30:00
but I'm weird and try to fix things when nobody asks for it
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
16:30:06
I'll admit, I didn't notice, but that probably speaks to your efficiency :)
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:30:25
one of the things neither of you have been particularly good at is asking the rest of us to help out
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:30:42
we're all here, and most of the time, we just sit here and do nothing because we don't know what we _can_ do
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:31:25
I know that Davide Cavalca has asked before what he can help with
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:31:31
and I've asked before too
<@davide:cavalca.name>
16:31:37
yeah I'm happy to put some cycles into this
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:31:38
most of the time, we just don't have anything
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:31:58
this is not RHEL where none of us can touch anything... it's still Fedora here
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
16:32:25
That's probably a fair assessment. I haven't done enough to remind folks that https://sgallagh.fedorapeople.org/dbs_status.html exists and is a great place to see what needs help
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:32:33
I've been personally spending time with Troy Dawson to prep KDE for EPEL 10, and that has also resulted in my looking through ELN itself too occasionally
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:32:40
but we can absolutely help out more if we know what to do
<@yselkowitz:fedora.im>
16:33:02
during the f40 mass rebuild I posted tickets with lists of packages ftbfs
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:34:21
sorry I missed those
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:34:37
but let's try to help out more now
<@yselkowitz:fedora.im>
16:34:47
Neil and Davide contributed a few fixes
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:35:21
some of these failures I see on that page are things I've already been working with Troy on fixing
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:35:28
so at least there's that...
<@yselkowitz:fedora.im>
16:35:39
eln extras definitely needs help
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:35:50
some of these I'm confused about their failure states
<@yselkowitz:fedora.im>
16:35:55
I haven't got to those
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
16:36:29
(We also need to put together a joint investigation on how to branch ELN Extras into EPEL 10 in the near future, but let's brainstorm on that and discuss it at the next meeting)
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:36:41
yup makes sense
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:37:32
I'm aware of a pile of ELN+Extras linked stuff are failing and that's been something I've been trying to untangle in spare cycles with everything going on for f40
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
16:37:35
Conan Kudo: As Yaakov says, we've largely been letting the ELN Extras stuff slide while we got EL 10 moving. Now is probably the right time to put some love into those failures
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
16:37:52
Conan Kudo: As Yaakov indicated, we've largely been letting the ELN Extras stuff slide while we got EL 10 moving. Now is probably the right time to put some love into those failures
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:38:01
f40 has been probably the busiest cycle I've had in a long time
<@davide:cavalca.name>
16:38:05
this is good timing as I was going to start updating the stuff Meta cares about in there next week
<@davide:cavalca.name>
16:39:07
last I checked the cloud packages (awscli, azure-cli, etc) were not in great shape
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:39:26
a lot of them were orphaned and some were picked up again
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
16:39:36
Davide Cavalca: I've gotten the impression that's true of Rawhide as well
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:39:44
yes
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:39:55
most of these are 1:1 to rawhide except the desktop stacks
<@nhanlon:beeper.com>
16:40:00
i saw a bunch of gcp stuff was orphaned this week too (?)
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:40:05
yes
<@nhanlon:beeper.com>
16:40:20
i did see go-sig was on most of them
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:40:30
the public cloud integration tooling is all a mess and work in #cloud:fedoraproject.org needs to be done to sort it out
<@nhanlon:beeper.com>
16:41:05
as you know, very much in for helping.
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:41:48
that's something to coordinate with mhayden and davdunc
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
16:42:01
Since we've gone a bit far afield, I just want to circle back to the mass-rebuild question.
Proposal: Out of interest in not burning people out, we'll plan to do the mass-rebuild in late April or early May and check in with toolchain teams for additional features to pull in at that time.
<@yselkowitz:fedora.im>
16:42:12
May
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:42:14
Stephen Gallagher: +1
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:42:19
May is fine for me
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
16:42:27
I'll amend that
<@nhanlon:beeper.com>
16:42:33
+1; noting, though, that that is 9.4/8.10 release season
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
16:42:43
Proposal: Out of interest in not burning people out, we'll plan to do the mass-rebuild in May and check in with toolchain teams for additional features to pull in at that time.
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:42:46
from a Fedora context, that doesn't really matter
<@nhanlon:beeper.com>
16:42:54
agreed, just noting.
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
16:43:01
appreciated
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:43:01
Stephen Gallagher: +1
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
16:43:43
!agreed Out of interest in not burning people out, we'll plan to do the mass-rebuild in May and check in with toolchain teams for additional features to pull in at that time.
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
16:44:54
!info The conversation also lead to a reminder that we have https://sgallagh.fedorapeople.org/dbs_status.html as a guide for packages in ELN and ELN Extras that need some love. Help would be appreciated.
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
16:45:43
!topic Flock to Fedora CfP
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
16:46:45
I've submitted two short items for Fedora ELN: 1) The State of the Fedora ELN Union and 2) A retrospective round-table session on Fedora ELN -> CentOS Stream 10
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:47:04
who is part of the roundtable?
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
16:47:12
Anyone who attends :)
<@nhanlon:beeper.com>
16:47:32
will the tables actually be round?
<@nhanlon:beeper.com>
16:47:35
I'll riot.
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
16:47:41
No promises on the shape of the tables.
<@nhanlon:beeper.com>
16:47:45
okay, fair.
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:47:46
aww
<@davide:cavalca.name>
16:48:10
I'm also planning a Fedora ELN talk at community day during RH Summit
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
16:48:11
But I mean, if you are in attendance at Flock and had some involvement with ELN in the CS10 timeframe, we'll find you a chair.
<@davide:cavalca.name>
16:48:30
I'll be at flock and will definitely try to attend this
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:48:34
same
<@yselkowitz:fedora.im>
16:49:03
hadn't planned on going but maybe I should reconsider 🤷
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
16:49:33
yselkowitz: As I understand, it's practically in your backyard?
<@yselkowitz:fedora.im>
16:49:47
a few hours drive
<@yselkowitz:fedora.im>
16:50:07
not great timing but if need be I could make wed-thu
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
16:50:09
Yeah, I'll be driving from Massachusetts
<@nhanlon:beeper.com>
16:50:20
though i'll take a plane of course to make sure i kill as many trees as possible /s
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
16:51:02
Neil Hanlon: I think that just provides food for trees. Now dead dinosaurs on the other hand...
<@nhanlon:beeper.com>
16:51:15
lol
<@tdawson:fedora.im>
16:51:17
I am hoping to be there, but I won't know for a few more weeks.
<@nhanlon:beeper.com>
16:51:17
debating taking my EV but worried about charging 😅
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:51:34
I was planning on flying up there, but I could be convinced to carpool
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:51:44
I just am never driving myself up to Rochester ever again
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:51:48
I did that once, never again
<@nhanlon:beeper.com>
16:51:51
lol
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
16:51:56
If anyone has another topic around ELN they'd like to discuss at Flock, please submit something to the CfP!
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
16:53:35
OK, that's all I had on the subject.
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
16:53:39
!topic Open Floor
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
16:53:51
We've got seven minutes left, anyone got anything else?
<@tdawson:fedora.im>
16:53:57
Nothing from me
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:54:11
nothing from me either
<@davide:cavalca.name>
16:54:42
just a reminder that if you have any regexps checking the OS version, they _will_ break when el10 comes out
<@yselkowitz:fedora.im>
16:54:58
huh?
<@davide:cavalca.name>
16:55:09
10 is two digits, so it won't match \d
<@davide:cavalca.name>
16:55:53
and neither does 40 (the version that ELN exposes, as it matches Fedora)
<@davide:cavalca.name>
16:56:05
well, probably 41 now, but the point stands
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
16:56:42
Where are we exposing the Fedora version in ELN?
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
16:56:50
That's a bug if we are
<@davide:cavalca.name>
16:57:14
pretty sure it was in os-release
<@davide:cavalca.name>
16:57:21
tbh I assumed it was on purpose
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:57:31
it is
<@conan_kudo:matrix.org>
16:57:40
Fedora ELN is still not RHEL
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
16:58:24
Hmm, that's not intentional and we should fix that.
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
16:58:42
It shouldn't be RHEL, but it also shouldn't be numeric
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
17:00:00
Ah, I guess I have it set up so we look like the ELN "variant" of Rawhide.
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
17:00:06
But that's not really accurate.
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
17:00:11
That will require some thought.
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
17:00:17
We're out of time in the meeting though.
<@davide:cavalca.name>
17:00:23
yes checking for variant_id is how I tell ELN apart internally fwiw
<@nhanlon:beeper.com>
17:00:41
saved by the bell ;)
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
17:00:50
Thank you for participating, folks.
<@sgallagh:fedora.im>
17:00:57
!endmeeting