2024-03-22 16:01:00 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> !startmeeting Fedora ELN (2024-03-22)
2024-03-22 16:01:02 <@meetbot:fedora.im> Meeting started at 2024-03-22 16:01:00 UTC
2024-03-22 16:01:03 <@meetbot:fedora.im> The Meeting name is 'Fedora ELN (2024-03-22)'
2024-03-22 16:01:06 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> !meetingname eln
2024-03-22 16:01:11 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> !topic Init Process
2024-03-22 16:01:14 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> !hi
2024-03-22 16:01:16 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Stephen Gallagher (sgallagh) - he / him / his
2024-03-22 16:01:19 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> !hi
2024-03-22 16:01:20 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Yaakov Selkowitz (yselkowitz)
2024-03-22 16:02:57 <@tdawson:fedora.im> !hi
2024-03-22 16:02:59 <@zodbot:fedora.im> None (tdawson)
2024-03-22 16:03:24 <@tdawson:fedora.im> Ya ... someday ... someday I'll fix that up ... just not today.
2024-03-22 16:04:00 <@davide:cavalca.name> !hi
2024-03-22 16:04:02 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Davide Cavalca (dcavalca) - he / him / his
2024-03-22 16:04:45 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> !topic Agenda
2024-03-22 16:04:52 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Currently we have one topic on the agenda:
2024-03-22 16:05:14 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> !info Agenda Item: ELN mass-rebuild to adapt to `%{rhel} == 11`
2024-03-22 16:05:27 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Any other topics that people want to add to the list?
2024-03-22 16:05:30 <@nhanlon:beeper.com> !hi
2024-03-22 16:05:33 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Neil Hanlon (neil) - he / him / his
2024-03-22 16:06:35 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Actually, I just thought of one additional topic
2024-03-22 16:06:52 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> !info Agenda Item: Flock to Fedora CfP
2024-03-22 16:07:18 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Let's  get rolling, then
2024-03-22 16:07:35 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> !topic ELN mass-rebuild to adapt to `%{rhel} == 11`
2024-03-22 16:08:17 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> As discussed in previous meetings, we intended to schedule a mass-rebuild after the F40 fork. We forgot about this until now, but it's probably something we should plan for in the relatively near future
2024-03-22 16:08:48 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> My main question about this is whether there are any other toolchain changes coming in the near future that we might want to schedule around.
2024-03-22 16:09:58 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> what are we looking to gain from another mass-rebuild?
2024-03-22 16:10:05 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> yselkowitz: I want this to be a fire-and-forget rebuild; I don't think we (ELN SIG) needs to be responsible for cleaning up fallout
2024-03-22 16:10:27 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> yselkowitz: Among other things, we probably wouldn
2024-03-22 16:10:41 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> sorry but there is no such thing
2024-03-22 16:10:41 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> 't have had so many issues around dnf5 if we'd done this sooner
2024-03-22 16:11:31 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> That ecosystem had a bunch of `>10` conditionals that were pretty broken
2024-03-22 16:12:06 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> I think I've fixed enough of them up at this point, but I'm sure there are other problems just waiting to sneak up on us
2024-03-22 16:13:20 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> dnf was a special case
2024-03-22 16:15:12 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> yselkowitz: Let me reverse the question: what do you think is the *cost* of doing a mass-rebuild at this point.
2024-03-22 16:15:19 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> yselkowitz: Let me reverse the question: what do you think is the _cost_ of doing a mass-rebuild at this point?
2024-03-22 16:15:38 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> besides my sanity?
2024-03-22 16:16:06 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> !hi
2024-03-22 16:16:07 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Neal Gompa (ngompa) - he / him / his
2024-03-22 16:16:23 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> if there is nothing to gain besides looking for problems, it can wait
2024-03-22 16:16:36 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> From my perspective, it's the difference between early recognition of issues or waiting until the packages are rebuilt for other reasons.
2024-03-22 16:17:15 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> yselkowitz: You joined this team in the first place. Your sanity is already in question :)
2024-03-22 16:18:08 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> the main gain is getting a RHELish build of things with frame pointers on
2024-03-22 16:18:54 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Conan Kudo: I recall being swayed by your prior arguments, but I cannot recall what they were. Could you remind me?
2024-03-22 16:19:19 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> well, let's see if I can recall them with a head cold :)
2024-03-22 16:19:34 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Oh, that’s right! That’s a big one. 
2024-03-22 16:20:01 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> aside from that, there are a ton of packages with rhel conditionals that flip between rhel 10 and rhel 11
2024-03-22 16:20:17 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> such as?
2024-03-22 16:20:25 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> well the multimedia stuff mainly
2024-03-22 16:20:30 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> pipewire _et al_
2024-03-22 16:20:54 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> pipewire already has a build
2024-03-22 16:21:37 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> and frankly, we agreed to schedule a mass build after branching
2024-03-22 16:21:59 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> precisely because of build flags changing between 10 and 11
2024-03-22 16:22:13 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> and I warned you then that I was not going to be in favour of one soon
2024-03-22 16:22:29 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Sorry, desktop crashed. Catching back up…
2024-03-22 16:22:39 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> and consistently having everything switch over so folks like myself and Davide Cavalca can actually do stuff with it right away
2024-03-22 16:22:57 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> it allows us to gather data and work on things for the future
2024-03-22 16:23:31 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> just to put things in perspective, dec-feb were 3 months of non-stop mass rebuilds
2024-03-22 16:24:34 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> and that was because of all kind of things going wrong on the Fedora side
2024-03-22 16:25:04 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> that's irrespective of the context of when the RHEL number is bumped for ELN, a mass build needs to happen
2024-03-22 16:25:07 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> and in a few weeks I have holidays so I won't be around for a bit
2024-03-22 16:25:37 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> it doesn't have to be right now, but I just want a date scheduled
2024-03-22 16:25:50 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> why? mass rebuilds are generally before we branch, not right after
2024-03-22 16:26:21 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> for Fedora, we do that because all the changes happen _before_ and are in effect _before_ branching
2024-03-22 16:26:24 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> ELN is backwards from that
2024-03-22 16:26:39 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> things go into effect _after_ things are bumped in a continuous fashion
2024-03-22 16:26:49 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> In the specific case of the `%rhel` macro, that does change the calculus some
2024-03-22 16:27:00 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> right, effectively that is a branching event
2024-03-22 16:27:07 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> and it changes the machinery
2024-03-22 16:27:28 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> when you change the machinery, you _need_ a build otherwise you don't know what the effects are
2024-03-22 16:28:28 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> I understand yselkowitz's position here: mass-rebuilds inevitably come with fallout that needs to be addressed.
2024-03-22 16:28:37 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> If nothing else, *something* will break our composes and need fixing
2024-03-22 16:28:48 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> So we need to figure out when we have the capacity to handle that fallout.
2024-03-22 16:29:04 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> we need it to not be a Yaakov-only thing too
2024-03-22 16:29:14 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> there's _no_ reason this should be handled _just_ by him
2024-03-22 16:29:16 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> In the past, that's been pretty much only Yaakov or I working to fix it.
2024-03-22 16:29:29 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Exactly, but that takes commitment from additional people :)
2024-03-22 16:29:39 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> last cycle, I spent a lot of time fixing the multimedia stack when it broke multiple times throughout the ELN -> C9S process
2024-03-22 16:29:59 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> I'll admit, I didn't notice, but that probably speaks to you efficiency :)
2024-03-22 16:30:00 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> but I'm weird and try to fix things when nobody asks for it
2024-03-22 16:30:06 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> I'll admit, I didn't notice, but that probably speaks to your efficiency :)
2024-03-22 16:30:25 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> one of the things neither of you have been particularly good at is asking the rest of us to help out
2024-03-22 16:30:42 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> we're all here, and most of the time, we just sit here and do nothing because we don't know what we _can_ do
2024-03-22 16:31:25 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I know that Davide Cavalca has asked before what he can help with
2024-03-22 16:31:31 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> and I've asked before too
2024-03-22 16:31:37 <@davide:cavalca.name> yeah I'm happy to put some cycles into this
2024-03-22 16:31:38 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> most of the time, we just don't have anything
2024-03-22 16:31:58 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> this is not RHEL where none of us can touch anything... it's still Fedora here
2024-03-22 16:32:25 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> That's probably a fair assessment. I haven't done enough to remind folks that https://sgallagh.fedorapeople.org/dbs_status.html exists and is a great place to see what needs help
2024-03-22 16:32:33 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I've been personally spending time with Troy Dawson to prep KDE for EPEL 10, and that has also resulted in my looking through ELN itself too occasionally
2024-03-22 16:32:40 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> but we can absolutely help out more if we know what to do
2024-03-22 16:33:02 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> during the f40 mass rebuild I posted tickets with lists of packages ftbfs
2024-03-22 16:34:21 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> sorry I missed those
2024-03-22 16:34:37 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> but let's try to help out more now
2024-03-22 16:34:47 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> Neil and Davide contributed a few fixes
2024-03-22 16:35:21 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> some of these failures I see on that page are things I've already been working with Troy on fixing
2024-03-22 16:35:28 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> so at least there's that...
2024-03-22 16:35:39 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> eln extras definitely needs help
2024-03-22 16:35:50 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> some of these I'm confused about their failure states
2024-03-22 16:35:55 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> I haven't got to those
2024-03-22 16:36:29 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> (We also need to put together a joint investigation on how to branch ELN Extras into EPEL 10 in the near future, but let's brainstorm on that and discuss it at the next meeting)
2024-03-22 16:36:41 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> yup makes sense
2024-03-22 16:37:32 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I'm aware of a pile of ELN+Extras linked stuff are failing and that's been something I've been trying to untangle in spare cycles with everything going on for f40
2024-03-22 16:37:35 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Conan Kudo: As Yaakov says, we've largely been letting the ELN Extras stuff slide while we got EL 10 moving. Now is probably the right time to put some love into those failures
2024-03-22 16:37:52 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Conan Kudo: As Yaakov indicated, we've largely been letting the ELN Extras stuff slide while we got EL 10 moving. Now is probably the right time to put some love into those failures
2024-03-22 16:38:01 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> f40 has been probably the busiest cycle I've had in a long time
2024-03-22 16:38:05 <@davide:cavalca.name> this is good timing as I was going to start updating the stuff Meta cares about in there next week
2024-03-22 16:39:07 <@davide:cavalca.name> last I checked the cloud packages (awscli, azure-cli, etc) were not in great shape
2024-03-22 16:39:26 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> a lot of them were orphaned and some were picked up again
2024-03-22 16:39:36 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Davide Cavalca: I've gotten the impression that's true of Rawhide as well
2024-03-22 16:39:44 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> yes
2024-03-22 16:39:55 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> most of these are 1:1 to rawhide except the desktop stacks
2024-03-22 16:40:00 <@nhanlon:beeper.com> i saw a bunch of gcp stuff was orphaned this week too (?)
2024-03-22 16:40:05 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> yes
2024-03-22 16:40:20 <@nhanlon:beeper.com> i did see go-sig was on most of them
2024-03-22 16:40:30 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> the public cloud integration tooling is all a mess and work in #cloud:fedoraproject.org needs to be done to sort it out
2024-03-22 16:41:05 <@nhanlon:beeper.com> as you know, very much in for helping.
2024-03-22 16:41:48 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> that's something to coordinate with mhayden and davdunc 
2024-03-22 16:42:01 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Since we've gone a bit far afield, I just want to circle back to the mass-rebuild question.
Proposal: Out of interest in not burning people out, we'll plan to do the mass-rebuild in late April or early May and check in with toolchain teams for additional features to pull in at that time.
2024-03-22 16:42:12 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> May
2024-03-22 16:42:14 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> Stephen Gallagher: +1
2024-03-22 16:42:19 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> May is fine for me
2024-03-22 16:42:27 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> I'll amend that
2024-03-22 16:42:33 <@nhanlon:beeper.com> +1; noting, though, that that is 9.4/8.10 release season
2024-03-22 16:42:43 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Proposal: Out of interest in not burning people out, we'll plan to do the mass-rebuild in May and check in with toolchain teams for additional features to pull in at that time.
2024-03-22 16:42:46 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> from a Fedora context, that doesn't really matter
2024-03-22 16:42:54 <@nhanlon:beeper.com> agreed, just noting.
2024-03-22 16:43:01 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> appreciated
2024-03-22 16:43:01 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> Stephen Gallagher: +1
2024-03-22 16:43:43 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> !agreed Out of interest in not burning people out, we'll plan to do the mass-rebuild in May and check in with toolchain teams for additional features to pull in at that time.
2024-03-22 16:44:54 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> !info The conversation also lead to a reminder that we have https://sgallagh.fedorapeople.org/dbs_status.html as a guide for packages in ELN and ELN Extras that need some love. Help would be appreciated.
2024-03-22 16:45:43 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> !topic Flock to Fedora CfP
2024-03-22 16:46:45 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> I've submitted two short items for Fedora ELN: 1) The State of the Fedora ELN Union  and 2) A retrospective round-table session on Fedora ELN -> CentOS Stream 10
2024-03-22 16:47:04 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> who is part of the roundtable?
2024-03-22 16:47:12 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Anyone who attends :)
2024-03-22 16:47:32 <@nhanlon:beeper.com> will the tables actually be round?
2024-03-22 16:47:35 <@nhanlon:beeper.com> I'll riot.
2024-03-22 16:47:41 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> No promises on the shape of the tables.
2024-03-22 16:47:45 <@nhanlon:beeper.com> okay, fair.
2024-03-22 16:47:46 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> aww
2024-03-22 16:48:10 <@davide:cavalca.name> I'm also planning a Fedora ELN talk at community day during RH Summit
2024-03-22 16:48:11 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> But I mean, if you are in attendance at Flock and had some involvement with ELN in the CS10 timeframe, we'll find you a chair.
2024-03-22 16:48:30 <@davide:cavalca.name> I'll be at flock and will definitely try to attend this
2024-03-22 16:48:34 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> same
2024-03-22 16:49:03 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> hadn't planned on going but maybe I should reconsider 🤷
2024-03-22 16:49:33 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> yselkowitz: As I understand, it's practically in your backyard?
2024-03-22 16:49:47 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> a few hours drive
2024-03-22 16:50:07 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> not great timing but if need be I could make wed-thu
2024-03-22 16:50:09 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Yeah, I'll be driving from Massachusetts
2024-03-22 16:50:20 <@nhanlon:beeper.com> though i'll take a plane of course to make sure i kill as many trees as possible /s
2024-03-22 16:51:02 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Neil Hanlon: I think that just provides food for trees. Now dead dinosaurs on the other hand...
2024-03-22 16:51:15 <@nhanlon:beeper.com> lol
2024-03-22 16:51:17 <@tdawson:fedora.im> I am hoping to be there, but I won't know for a few more weeks.
2024-03-22 16:51:17 <@nhanlon:beeper.com> debating taking my EV but worried about charging 😅
2024-03-22 16:51:34 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I was planning on flying up there, but I could be convinced to carpool
2024-03-22 16:51:44 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I just am never driving myself up to Rochester ever again
2024-03-22 16:51:48 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I did that once, never again
2024-03-22 16:51:51 <@nhanlon:beeper.com> lol
2024-03-22 16:51:56 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> If anyone has another topic around ELN they'd like to discuss at Flock, please submit something to the CfP!
2024-03-22 16:53:35 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> OK, that's all I had on the subject.
2024-03-22 16:53:39 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> !topic Open Floor
2024-03-22 16:53:51 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> We've got seven minutes left, anyone got anything else?
2024-03-22 16:53:57 <@tdawson:fedora.im> Nothing from me
2024-03-22 16:54:11 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> nothing from me either
2024-03-22 16:54:42 <@davide:cavalca.name> just a reminder that if you have any regexps checking the OS version, they _will_ break when el10 comes out
2024-03-22 16:54:58 <@yselkowitz:fedora.im> huh?
2024-03-22 16:55:09 <@davide:cavalca.name> 10 is two digits, so it won't match \d
2024-03-22 16:55:53 <@davide:cavalca.name> and neither does 40 (the version that ELN exposes, as it matches Fedora)
2024-03-22 16:56:05 <@davide:cavalca.name> well, probably 41 now, but the point stands
2024-03-22 16:56:42 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Where are we exposing the Fedora version in ELN?
2024-03-22 16:56:50 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> That's a bug if we are
2024-03-22 16:57:14 <@davide:cavalca.name> pretty sure it was in os-release
2024-03-22 16:57:21 <@davide:cavalca.name> tbh I assumed it was on purpose
2024-03-22 16:57:31 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> it is
2024-03-22 16:57:40 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> Fedora ELN is still not RHEL
2024-03-22 16:58:24 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Hmm, that's not intentional and we should fix that.
2024-03-22 16:58:42 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> It shouldn't be RHEL, but it also shouldn't be numeric
2024-03-22 17:00:00 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Ah, I guess I have it set up so we look like the ELN "variant" of Rawhide.
2024-03-22 17:00:06 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> But that's not really accurate.
2024-03-22 17:00:11 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> That will require some thought.
2024-03-22 17:00:17 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> We're out of time in the meeting though.
2024-03-22 17:00:23 <@davide:cavalca.name> yes checking for variant_id is how I tell ELN apart internally fwiw
2024-03-22 17:00:41 <@nhanlon:beeper.com> saved by the bell ;)
2024-03-22 17:00:50 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Thank you for participating, folks.
2024-03-22 17:00:57 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> !endmeeting