16:00:08 <nirik> #startmeeting EPEL (2012-06-15)
16:00:08 <zodbot> Meeting started Fri Jun 15 16:00:08 2012 UTC.  The chair is nirik. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:00:08 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
16:00:08 <nirik> #meetingname epel
16:00:08 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'epel'
16:00:08 <nirik> #topic init process/agenda
16:00:08 <nirik> #chair smooge tremble dgilmore
16:00:08 <nirik> EPEL meeting ping abadger1999 rsc stahnma tremble dgilmore smooge nb maxamillion tremble Jeff_S HackMan
16:00:08 <zodbot> Current chairs: dgilmore nirik smooge tremble
16:00:12 <smooge> here
16:00:19 <nirik> who all is around for a epel meeting? :)
16:00:59 <Jeff_S> .
16:01:10 <Jeff_S> I'd like to be a table since we have four chairs already
16:02:08 <nirik> ha
16:02:19 * abadger1999 here
16:03:12 <nirik> who all has topics? I assume we will poke more at the overlap issue as we always do. ;)
16:03:31 <Jeff_S> nothing else here...
16:03:45 <nirik> #info broken deps script for epel6 that needs to be cleaned up: http://fedorapeople.org/~kevin/epel-deps/spam-o-matic-el6
16:04:34 <nirik> #topic Overlapping with RHEL (part 10)
16:04:51 <nirik> so, where were we on this? abadger1999 sent a proposal to the list...
16:05:21 <nirik> there was a bunch of discussion.
16:05:56 <nirik> much of it was from what is a 'basic subscription.
16:06:52 <abadger1999> I think people on list disputed what went into "Basic Subscription", whether there's additional cost involved with addons, and whether we could/should split on Addons vs channels instead of basic subscription.
16:06:59 <nirik> and some was things that seemed to go much more high level and just confused me. ;)
16:07:05 <nirik> yeah
16:07:57 <nirik> perhaps we could try and answer those questions via talking with Red Hat support folks.
16:08:17 <smooge> I think we keep it simple and say we have /en/os and we added two extra channels. If people have a problem iwth that then EPEL is not the project for them.
16:09:37 * nirik re-reads thread
16:11:12 <nirik> smooge: I agree that would be easiest.
16:12:29 <nirik> so, I think the 'base subscription' thing is just not going to help us any... perhaps we should drop trying to use that.
16:12:50 <smooge> yeah. It looks like it depends on when, who and what was bought.
16:13:28 <abadger1999> <nod>
16:14:15 <nirik> dgilmore: any more luck finding channel owners? or thats all unknown still?
16:14:18 <rbergeron> (is this still loosely about the puppet thing?)
16:14:25 <nirik> rbergeron: somewhat.
16:14:27 <Jeff_S> and centos includes more than "/en/os and we added two extra channels."?
16:14:30 <dgilmore> nirik: still unknown
16:14:36 * rbergeron is happy to help run people down
16:14:37 <rbergeron> or chase down
16:14:44 <rbergeron> i suppose running down sounds pretty bad :)
16:14:44 <nirik> rbergeron: it's about what epel will allow in it's repo.
16:14:51 <rbergeron> nirik: yeah, i got that part :)
16:14:52 * Jeff_S pictures rbergeron in her car running down channel owners
16:15:14 <nirik> the problem is we can't just say "nothing thats in RHEL'
16:15:24 <nirik> because there are eleventy gillion channels.
16:15:45 <smooge> Jeff_S, well what is in CentOS these days not counting Extras and such
16:16:25 <Jeff_S> smooge: not counting extras, correct.  I think it's important to consider centos users as well. IMO more important than RHEL (yes, I said that!)
16:16:25 <rbergeron> is there a list of specific owners you're looking for or just "general list, whateve ryou can find"
16:17:40 <nirik> rbergeron: one of the thoughts was that we do 'nothing in base os/optional/lb/ha and if a channel owner of another channel requested it, we could add their channel packages to the list of 'don't ship these''
16:18:07 <nirik> but for that to work channel owners would need to communicate with us and say "please don't ship channel-foobar packages in epel'
16:18:36 <rbergeron> okay
16:18:51 <rbergeron> dgilmore: is your list at 0 or started?
16:19:49 <nirik> this would mean channel owners could be disruptive if they started shipping a bunch of stuff epel users use and then asked us to stop shipping them, but I would hope they would be reasonable.
16:20:33 <dgilmore> rbergeron: ive been talking to stickster_afk
16:20:46 <Jeff_S> nirik: I don't think we could have a policy that puts channel owners in charge of what we ship.  But we surely should consider their requests when reasonable
16:21:12 <nirik> Jeff_S: sure. I guess I was thinking case by case...
16:21:18 <Jeff_S> +1
16:21:20 <nirik> I don't think anyone wants to cause problems for others...
16:21:26 <Jeff_S> nirik: maybe just some people ;)
16:21:41 <nirik> at least I hope we can minimize problems caused by epel for both rhel and other distros.
16:22:12 <smooge> Jeff_S, my question was what is in Centos Core for 6 and how does it overlap with RHEL .. eg is it built out of just /en/os or does it pull in other channels.
16:22:49 <nirik> so, how about this: we rephrase the proposed thing to drop mentions of 'base subscription' and ask on list if anyone has better proposals if they don't like that one.
16:22:59 <Jeff_S> smooge: it's built out of everything that's shared publicly on ftp.redhat AFAIK.  let me see if I can get a better definition
16:23:14 <nirik> Jeff_S: that would include a number of channels then...
16:23:19 <Jeff_S> indeed
16:23:38 <nirik> and things like puppet, mongodb, etc that are shipped by epel too. ;)
16:23:46 <Jeff_S> do we have numbers on what part of our user and/or developer base are using centos vs. rhel?
16:23:47 <abadger1999> I'd be interested in knowing if there's any thought about Addons vs other channels inside of RH.  Are addons more stable/won't conflict with each other/have other characteristics that other channels don't?
16:23:50 * Jeff_S thinks not
16:23:51 <smooge> and stuff that conflicts within those channels :)
16:23:55 * nirik again wonders why there's been no complaints over the last year if overlaps are so common.
16:24:22 <nirik> abadger1999: I know some of the add ons ship the same packages... so they do overlap
16:24:29 <smooge> Jeff_S, no we don't. Unless CentOS starts shipping smolt or something :)
16:24:41 <Jeff_S> smooge: god(s) help us
16:24:47 <abadger1999> <nod> -- did we figure out if those are presently all the same versions, though?
16:25:09 <Jeff_S> http://vault.centos.org/6.2/os/Source/SPackages/
16:25:11 <nirik> abadger1999: the one case I saw they were.
16:25:19 <Jeff_S> nirik: no mongo there for example
16:25:22 <nirik> but not sure if that was deliberate or not.
16:25:33 <abadger1999> <nod>
16:25:42 <nirik> Jeff_S: yeah, so I wonder if it's not just base + optional
16:25:52 <Jeff_S> nirik: I'll verify that and post to the list
16:25:59 <nirik> cool. that would be great
16:26:50 <nirik> abadger1999: would you be willing to try another proposal post? or would you like me to try?
16:26:59 <abadger1999> rpm --changelog  might tell us.
16:27:16 <Jeff_S> abadger1999: hmm?
16:27:35 <abadger1999> (at leaset, if those packages in different addons had separate maintainers or not.)
16:28:30 <abadger1999> nirik: You can if you like.
16:28:38 <Jeff_S> :)
16:28:39 <nirik> sure, can try.
16:28:46 <abadger1999> I'd be okay with smooge's proposal.
16:29:10 <abadger1999> I'd be okay trying to s/Basic Subscription/Addons/
16:29:40 <abadger1999> and see if people point out that Addons won't work either :-)
16:30:46 <smooge> well there are too many addons now..
16:30:48 <nirik> yeah, it seemed it was unclear who got addons.
16:30:57 <nirik> and the addons confict with each other
16:31:15 <abadger1999> There's 6 addons listed on that page.
16:32:15 <Jeff_S> abadger1999: which page?
16:32:22 <abadger1999> http://www.redhat.com/products/enterprise-linux-add-ons/
16:32:32 <Jeff_S> thanks
16:32:42 * abadger1999 not counting the extended lifecycle ones
16:34:19 <Jeff_S> all the marketing hurts my eyes
16:34:56 <nirik> ok, hows this:
16:34:58 <jzb> Jeff_S: it's sort of like an eclipse, you're not supposed to look directly at it.
16:35:02 <Jeff_S> lol
16:35:02 <nirik> "EPEL6 will not normally ship packages that are shipped already in the
16:35:03 <nirik> following RHEL channels: os, optional, lb, and ha. Any overlapping
16:35:03 <nirik> packages must be to provide binary packages on arches not provided by
16:35:03 <nirik> RHEL ( following:
16:35:04 <nirik> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/EPEL:Packaging#Limited_Arch_Packages ).
16:35:06 <nirik> Additional channels may be added to the above list on a case by case
16:35:08 <nirik> basis. "
16:35:58 <Jeff_S> seems like a reasonable start to me
16:36:01 <abadger1999> I'm not in love with it because there's no expectation of what may or may not be added in that.
16:36:16 <nirik> yeah, thats true.
16:36:26 <abadger1999> But I'd be okay with it since it basically starts us with what we want to do now.
16:36:55 <nirik> we could drop the last sentence, and just continue to discuss adding critera.
16:38:11 <nirik> or change it to "additional channels could be added based on a critera we have yet to decide." :)
16:38:53 <abadger1999> +1 to the second wording.
16:39:16 <nirik> at least then people know it's still being discussed and they could provide input on the method. ;)
16:41:19 <nirik> ok, I can send that out for more comment.
16:41:25 <nirik> anything else on this?
16:42:00 <smooge> not from me.
16:42:14 <nirik> #topic Open Floor
16:42:20 <nirik> anything for open floor?
16:42:22 <smooge> I just want to get done with this and move back to making packages versus argueing over the color and floorsize of my bikeshed
16:42:33 <smooge> I will have mediawiki119 out this weekend I hope
16:42:45 <smooge> I will also be end of lifing all mediawiki's before then
16:43:02 <nirik> smooge: cool. ;)
16:43:33 <nirik> oh, another FYI, I will be not here for the next two meetings... someone else could run them, or we could just skip them. Either way is fine with me. ;)
16:44:19 <smooge> I can run them
16:44:43 <nirik> smooge: cool.
16:44:43 <smooge> if we miss one we may never start again :)
16:44:56 <nirik> yeah, we are bad about that. ;)
16:45:03 <nirik> ok, if nothing else will close out the meeting in a minute.
16:45:44 <nirik> thanks for coming everyone
16:45:47 <nirik> #endmeeting