18:00:54 <smooge> #startmeeting EPEL (2019-05-01)
18:00:54 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed May  8 18:00:54 2019 UTC.
18:00:54 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
18:00:54 <zodbot> The chair is smooge. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
18:00:54 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
18:00:54 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'epel_(2019-05-01)'
18:00:54 <smooge> #meetingname epel
18:00:54 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'epel'
18:00:54 <smooge> #topic Chair and Introductions
18:00:54 <smooge> #chair bstinson Evolution nirik smooge pgreco tdawson
18:00:54 <zodbot> Current chairs: Evolution bstinson nirik pgreco smooge tdawson
18:01:03 <nirik> morning
18:01:07 <bstinson> oh wednesday already
18:01:10 <pgreco> hello
18:01:16 <smooge> Due to RH Summit I think we may have bare quorum
18:01:24 <nirik> bstinson: time flies when you are having fun? :)
18:01:25 <pgreco> yes, quiet week, not much to talk about :D
18:01:36 * tdawson is here
18:01:58 <bstinson> s/having fun/didn't sleep on monday night/
18:02:01 <smooge> #topic Agenda
18:02:01 <smooge> #info tdawson cleaned up -testing
18:02:01 <smooge> #info RHEL-8 Released
18:02:11 <smooge> Any other items for the agenda?
18:02:23 <smooge> oh probably
18:02:33 <smooge> #info Should we do an EPEL-8
18:03:07 * smooge is a bit punchy after 4 days of 4-6 hours sleep and getting up at 0300 to 0400
18:03:17 <nirik> naw, it's over man... KIDDING!
18:03:27 <smooge> #topic tdawson cleaned up -testing
18:03:49 <smooge> Thank you very much tdawson for cleaning out the testing agenda
18:03:59 <smooge> s/agenda/backlog/
18:03:59 <tdawson> Very welcome
18:04:23 <nirik> did you get much reply from that?
18:04:23 <smooge> I think it did point out one thing.. where some people are using -testing as a rawhide
18:04:26 <nirik> any comments, etc?
18:04:36 <tdawson> True
18:04:53 <tdawson> I don't think the number of people doing that was very high, but there was some doing that.
18:05:10 <pgreco> can we count those who complain about it as karma?
18:05:16 <pgreco> and release those?
18:05:18 <nirik> when we have minor releases we could drop all updates from the previous minor at that time if we wanted...
18:05:33 <tdawson> pgreco: They didn't want them released
18:05:45 <smooge> nirik, my plan was to put the minor releases in archives and start fresh
18:05:52 <pgreco> ok
18:06:12 <nirik> smooge: right, but we would need to decide if we do anything with in flight updates...
18:06:21 <smooge> ah yeah..
18:06:41 * smooge gets that 40 yard stare
18:06:43 <nirik> it would be anoying to push a security fix or something the day before a minor release and it gets flushed... but on the other hand...
18:08:08 <smooge> yeah.. I think that we would need to do minor branching
18:08:31 <smooge> and I realize we are back to why we never did this before
18:09:11 <nirik> probibly best to just leave it up to maintainers and clean out really old ones from time to time. Or nag them more.
18:09:18 <smooge> yeah
18:09:31 <smooge> ok next up
18:09:38 <smooge> #info RHEL-8 Released
18:09:44 <smooge> #topic RHEL-8 Released
18:10:20 <smooge> #info RHEL-8 looks to be doing minor releases on a regular schedule.
18:10:43 <smooge> #info RHEL-8 has modules which are fun, tasty and good for you like brocolli
18:11:10 * tdawson wonders if there is any dip for the brocolli
18:12:02 <nirik> spicy ranch!
18:13:14 <smooge> #info CentOS team is examing the RHEL and will announce their schedule as they work out which Elder God is used
18:13:21 <nirik> anyhow, I think we have a plan for moving forward on epel8 now?
18:13:50 <smooge> #topic Should we do an EPEL-8 (OK really we will do an EPEL-8)
18:14:26 <smooge> Alright I have a general plan on how to do an EPEL-8...
18:15:54 <smooge> https://etherpad.gnome.org/p/EPEL-8-maybe
18:16:17 * smooge is having document meltdown issues at the moment
18:16:58 <nirik> yeah, it's really slow here, but it did load
18:17:32 <smooge> there were a couple of others I worked on.. but I think this was the shortest
18:17:41 <nirik> I think we should skip to the making repos koji can use... doing a pass with no modular content seems a waste to me
18:18:27 <nirik> but I guess that says that I just cant read
18:19:18 <smooge> I think that was in an earlier version
18:19:43 <orionp> How is koji going to consume modular content?
18:20:17 <nirik> anyhow, (for irc logs) IMHO its: mirror content, setup script to split modules into seperate repos, get list of default modules, add to staging koji, try and build a base of things, later rinse repeat
18:20:47 <nirik> orionp: we are going to split modules into their own repos and only add as external repos in koji the default or buildonly ones.
18:20:47 <tdawson> nirik: In short, we just pretend they are small repo's, correct?
18:20:59 <tdawson> or ... what you just said :)
18:21:02 <nirik> no, they will really be modules... the next part is:
18:21:27 <nirik> koji patch to how it merges external repos + mergerepos_c patch that merges module repodata
18:21:51 <nirik> so then dnf in koji will hopefully do the right thing with what we give it
18:22:23 <smooge> so one thing we won't be able to do in the past was download and then do a createrepo on the downloads.. it tends to lose the moduleinfo
18:23:30 <nirik> smooge: right, we need the full metadata...
18:23:53 <nirik> once we get it working in stg, we can move to prod with a small pool of packages and open the gates...
18:24:03 <smooge> so one thing I was thinking of was what if instead of building against the always updated version, we rebuild against what is shipped in the ISO only.
18:24:06 <nirik> (and modules would come later... this is all just non modular content)
18:24:56 <nirik> thats going to mean we might miss security updates and bugfixes tho right?
18:25:07 <smooge> well security updates we aren't shipping
18:25:15 <nirik> but rhel is
18:25:55 <nirik> the api for the base should stay the same, so that would be ok, but appstream could change? or only by adding new modules?
18:26:48 <smooge> at the moment i am not sure how the appstream will change or how often.. or if they will change defaults in the middle of a minor version
18:26:49 <nirik> and when do they change defaults? only at minor releases? or anytime?
18:26:54 <nirik> yeah
18:27:19 <smooge> but if they change defaults during a minor we will have to change what we are building against anyway
18:27:33 <nirik> yep
18:27:45 <smooge> because we will be hardcoding which micro-repos we are building against
18:27:53 * nirik nods
18:28:39 <nirik> do we have/want to send an announcement with the plan? and/or blog post? or does anyone find the plan bad ? :)
18:28:41 <smooge> so anyway.. I need to write out a couple more lines.. but is there any questions on the doc in general to send to the mailing list? I have some other content to add but it was being reviewed
18:28:46 <smooge> hah
18:29:06 <nirik> jinx.
18:29:30 <nirik> smooge: if you like I can write something up too... you have done so many of these things... but if you want to go for it.
18:29:33 <tdawson> When we branch in stage, with those be epel8 branches, or epel8.0, or epel8-stage ?
18:29:43 <tdawson> Or is that too minor a detail right now?
18:30:10 <nirik> IMHO epel8
18:30:17 <smooge> I was going to say epel8.0
18:30:40 <smooge> and we do a branch set for epel8.1 when it goes into beta
18:30:43 <nirik> per minor branches are going to annoy maintainers a lot
18:31:02 <nirik> having to request every minor release...
18:31:02 <orionp> I gotta run - but I'd like to be involved in building/testing/helping out
18:31:25 <orionp> unless you can build for older point releases, what's the point of epel8.X?
18:31:29 <tdawson> I think we need to do the minor branches, or the new EPEL scheme will never work.
18:31:35 <smooge> nirik, so for minor releases I was thinking we just auto branch from 8.0 -> 8.1 and if a maintainer wants to stop they dead.package 8.1
18:31:49 <nirik> but they could just dead.package epel8 ?
18:32:34 <nirik> orionp: yeah
18:32:47 <smooge> I was figuring it would make pungi/etc easier if the branches they pointed to a minor
18:33:08 <tdawson> I typed what I did before I ready orionp's comment.  He has a good point.  If you can't build on older releases ...
18:33:09 <nirik> pungi doesn't know about branches, it gets everything from koji tags.
18:33:27 <smooge> orionp, so what I am seeing is that during the beta for 8.1 you would build a newer version there and keep the older one in 8.0
18:33:41 <smooge> if you build the newer one then you are oging ot publish in the older tree
18:34:28 <smooge> so there is a period where you are 'building' for both a new and old. If someone has a better way of dealing with that I am ok with it. I just didn't come up with anything
18:35:15 <smooge> or does the problem I am seeing even exist?
18:35:42 <nirik> well, I am not sure what the problem is... wanting to push newer to beta, while still being able to push fixes/security to older?
18:36:02 <tdawson> I don't see how we will be able to build with beta's ... I thought Red Hat doesn't publically release them.
18:36:05 <pgreco> well, it could be epel8-stable and epel8-testing
18:36:08 <pgreco> or whatever
18:36:13 <tdawson> minor beta's I mean
18:36:23 <nirik> tdawson: yeah, true
18:36:24 <pgreco> just not a number linked to point releases
18:36:34 <nirik> well, we have that now... updates and updates-testing
18:37:00 <nirik> clearly there's lots of corner cases we will have to deal with. ;)
18:37:24 <smooge> so I wasn't looking to build with the beta, just announce that the beta is there and if you want a major jump you can test it in the 8.N branch.
18:37:52 <smooge> but yeah.. I am missing the fact that we would need to rebuild all that with 8.N when it came out
18:38:22 <smooge> ok so let us just go with epel8 branch
18:38:30 <nirik> 8.x still gets updates after 8.x+1 beta is out right? so thats another case...
18:38:32 <smooge> if we end up needing more we can amke them later
18:38:55 <smooge> epel8-rawhide
18:39:09 <smooge> actually that might make sense..
18:39:31 <nirik> indeed. it well could.
18:40:03 <smooge> it solves my problem and could be a place where people who dont give a F about stability on their production systems could put things
18:40:08 <nirik> "update as you like, users keep all parts when it breaks"
18:40:42 <smooge> I will put that as a proposal and people can dwell on it for the coming week
18:40:56 <tdawson> You know what ... I really like that, and not just for epel8 ... there might be some epel7 people who want that.
18:40:59 <nirik> so when we have 8.0 and 8.1 beta comes out, we tell people to test in epel8-rawhide, then when 8.1 comes out we archive 8.0, tell people they can land their big 8.1 changes for a week, move on?
18:41:24 <nirik> smooge: yeah, it's a pretty nice idea actually.
18:41:29 <nirik> tdawson: indeed.
18:42:04 <nirik> and epel8-rawhide acts like rawhide (nightly compose of all builds)
18:43:32 <nirik> I'm reallying liking that idea...
18:43:37 <smooge> ok cool
18:44:22 <smooge> let us write it up, send it out ot the lists and vote on it.
18:44:28 <nirik> once we have modular builds people can really go nuts there...
18:44:55 <smooge> I am going ot need to get some food.. my brain has turned on the big E sign
18:45:04 <smooge> #topic Open Floor
18:45:12 <smooge> Anything else for this week?
18:45:13 <nirik> red smooge needs food badly!
18:45:42 <smooge> blue smooge shot the food
18:46:28 <smooge> ok if not we are going to call this a week and try to have blog posts and plans put to the list by end of day tomorrow
18:46:50 <tdawson> Sounds good.
18:46:59 <pgreco> nothing from me here
18:47:49 <smooge> thank you all for coming and see you next week
18:47:52 <smooge> #endmeeting