17:01:08 <smooge> #startmeeting EPEL (2019-06-05)
17:01:08 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Jun  5 17:01:08 2019 UTC.
17:01:08 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
17:01:08 <zodbot> The chair is smooge. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
17:01:08 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
17:01:08 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'epel_(2019-06-05)'
17:01:08 <smooge> #meetingname epel
17:01:08 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'epel'
17:01:08 <smooge> #topic Chair and Introductions
17:01:08 <smooge> #chair bstinson Evolution nirik smooge pgreco tdawson
17:01:08 <zodbot> Current chairs: Evolution bstinson nirik pgreco smooge tdawson
17:01:32 <Evolution> o/
17:01:48 <pgreco> ok, I'm here
17:02:01 <smooge> hello
17:02:16 <smooge> this may be a no quorum meeting.
17:02:24 <smooge> #topic nirik is on break this week
17:02:30 <smooge> #topic Chair and Introductions
17:02:40 <smooge> #info nirik is on break this week
17:03:07 <pgreco> smooge, next week will be complicated also, I think
17:03:09 <smooge> #topic Agenda
17:03:09 <smooge> #info EPEL Proposal: EPEL Master branch AKA Rawhide
17:03:09 <smooge> #info EPEL-8
17:03:19 <smooge> #info There will be NO meeting next week
17:04:21 <smooge> several of us will be locked in an escape room with a skunk
17:05:01 <smooge> ok I don't see tdawson or bstinson so I will just paste what I was going to have and we go to open floor
17:05:22 * bstinson is here, but barely
17:05:48 <pgreco> ok, we could just recap last week, and the mails after that
17:06:08 <smooge> #topic EPEL Rawhide (take 2)
17:06:08 <smooge> #info https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/epel-devel@lists.fedoraproject.org/message/FYOOSAJOTDNCE4RLF32ORFO6WL2M5WD5/
17:06:08 <smooge> #topic EPEL-8
17:06:08 <smooge> #info grobisplitter is in production
17:06:08 <smooge> #info working with mohan to get koji.stg and builders.stg into place
17:06:09 <smooge> #info koji.stg knows about EPEL-8 and some builds have been attempted
17:06:11 <smooge> #info next steps are staging git, bodhi, etc etc
17:06:13 <smooge> #topic Open Floor
17:06:49 <pgreco> basically, no rawhide in the name, but same concept
17:06:53 <pgreco> then epel8 (as stable)
17:07:08 <pgreco> and branch out on point release (and archive)
17:07:09 <smooge> ok so last week sgallagh said he would offer some changes which he did and the proposal did not burn like mine
17:07:20 <tdawson> I thought epel meeting was in a hour ... sorry I'm late
17:07:27 <tdawson> '
17:07:51 <smooge> ah f@#$@#$
17:07:55 <pgreco> tdawson, he keeps changing it to keep us awake, I thought it was 18:00 utc ;)
17:07:56 <smooge> tdawson, you are right
17:08:18 <smooge> do you guys want me to stop it because I bet bstinson may be available then
17:08:21 <smooge> sorry
17:08:42 <pgreco> I don't think 1 hour will change bstinson's life
17:08:51 <tdawson> I'm ok either way
17:09:14 <smooge> well he might be eating lunch and having quiet time and in an hour will be like 'hey guys can't a guy eat a ham sandwich without people calling meetings?'
17:10:00 <bstinson> i'm watching enough to pay attention now :)
17:10:14 <smooge> bstinson, sorry
17:10:51 <smooge> i got off the phone with the bank and glanced at the clock and said its :01 I am late starting the call
17:11:03 <smooge> ok so back to
17:11:09 <smooge> #topic EPEL Rawhide (take 2)
17:11:39 <smooge> I like the propsoal, I think it would be a good one, and I think we could probably implement it
17:12:34 <smooge> I can put it up for a vote at the next meeting, but I am looking to create 2 git branches in stging this afternoon epel-8 and epel-master-8
17:13:23 <pgreco> smooge, epel-8-master instead?
17:13:29 <smooge> sure.
17:13:36 <pgreco> just thinking about sorting
17:13:44 <smooge> I should be consistent
17:13:50 <sgallagh> Also it sounds odd when spoken aloud
17:13:57 * sgallagh arrives late
17:14:04 <smooge> no you are 45 minutes early
17:14:06 <pgreco> or 47 mins early
17:14:25 <smooge> I misread my clock and panic'd I missed the meeting beginning again
17:14:26 <sgallagh> I arrived precisely when I meant to!
17:14:56 <smooge> so yes epel-8-master
17:15:01 <tdawson> I know people weren't thrilled about epel-rawhide ... I didn't know -master was what we ended up with ... or is this just to get something started?
17:15:20 <smooge> well I was looking at master branch
17:15:29 <smooge> so went with that
17:15:35 <smooge> it can be epel-8-wagontrain
17:15:47 <smooge> it can be epel-8-bonanza
17:15:56 <smooge> it can be epel-8-have-gun-will-travel
17:15:57 <pgreco> epel-8-youcandoyourmesshere
17:16:06 <tdawson> :)
17:16:28 <smooge> i figured master was clearer to what rawhide is in the other branches
17:16:29 <pgreco> and for stable epel-8-dontyoudarescrewthisone
17:16:44 <sgallagh> I suggested elsewhere that we should declare “bobrossing” to be the opposite of bikeshedding, because the great sage would have told us to just pick a color and make something beautiful.
17:17:19 <smooge> so let us bob ross this.. anyone have a particular cloud they want to call it?
17:17:51 <pgreco> the concept for not using rawhide is the same for not using master (acording to the ML)
17:17:52 <tdawson> Now that I think about it ... -master is fine ... similar to fedora master ... I just didn't recall us saying that.
17:17:57 <pgreco> master==rawhide
17:19:42 <sgallagh> OK, if we have to decide on this minutae before discussing the general plan... we should probably at least describe the problem we're solving.
17:19:59 <sgallagh> In Fedora, "Rawhide" kind of makes sense with its "wild west" (aka, limited rules) implication
17:20:10 <sgallagh> But that's probably NOT what we actually want EPEL "Rawhide" to be.
17:20:20 <Evolution> tdawson: did SL do anything fancy here?
17:20:21 <smooge> actually updates-testing is getting used for that
17:20:23 <sgallagh> And the name we choose should probably reflect that
17:20:23 <Evolution> they did similar versioning.
17:20:37 <Evolution> tdawson: can't recall what you/they called it though
17:20:48 <tdawson> fastbugs
17:21:01 <pgreco> ok, naming aside, the concept is clear
17:21:08 <smooge> fastlane ?
17:21:12 <sgallagh> So before we try to pick a name, let's make sure we agree on how we intend people to use it
17:21:32 <sgallagh> (whether they actually do as we intend is secondary and insoluble, so ignore it for now)
17:21:50 <smooge> so the 2 parts I am wanting to use it for are : People who want stuff a 'rural lifestyle' versus the HOA that EPEL is
17:22:11 <sgallagh> smooge: Those terms may not be globally-accessible.
17:22:20 <smooge> no they probably are not
17:22:50 <smooge> People who want to be able to put things which do not fit into what is 'extra' stable in regular EPEL.
17:23:19 <sgallagh> This is what you *want* it to be, or what you expect it will be used for?
17:23:19 <smooge> When RHEL does a major API update a place to stage the builds before they hit regular EPEL
17:23:30 <sgallagh> Because those are different questions.
17:23:35 <smooge> sgallagh, well I am seeing epel-testing being used for it already
17:24:05 <sgallagh> smooge: That didn't answer the question :)
17:24:15 <sgallagh> Is that what we *want*?
17:24:15 <smooge> I want those out of epel-testing
17:24:18 <sgallagh> I'd say no.
17:24:30 <sgallagh> I'd say that realistically we want them to use modules to solve that particular problem
17:25:00 <sgallagh> My perspective is that we want "rawhide" for "things that are being staged for an upcoming minor release"
17:25:26 <pgreco> sgallagh, or for a rebase
17:25:30 <pgreco> but yes
17:25:32 <smooge> in that case I would definitely not call it rawhide or anything wild
17:25:40 <smooge> just -future
17:25:51 <sgallagh> pgreco: Well, we established that such rebases will be permitted only at a minor release
17:25:55 <sgallagh> So same thing, really
17:26:05 <pgreco> ack
17:26:14 <sgallagh> smooge: -future, -staging, -prototype
17:26:46 <sgallagh> But again, let's first see if people agree with that use-case
17:28:42 <tdawson> On a short term basis ... I'm totally fine with calling it -master in stg while we figure out the final name.
17:29:05 <smooge> actual I think -staging sounds good.
17:29:15 <sgallagh> Yeah, that was the one I was leaning towards too
17:29:18 <smooge> I can change the epel-rpm macros
17:29:25 <sgallagh> Because it carries a strong implication that things shouldn't vary there forever
17:29:33 <pgreco> +1 on -staging
17:30:04 <pgreco> at least for now
17:30:13 <smooge> ok will fix the epel-release in staging in the next build
17:30:55 <smooge> ok anything else on this one?
17:31:09 <smooge> I think any final vote on it should happen after next week
17:31:25 <smooge> but we can do a -staging until we finish the EPEL-beta
17:32:15 <smooge> workflow can be fedpkg build for epel-8 goes to epel-8-staging first it can then be tagged to epel-8-testing and then epel-8
17:32:20 <sgallagh> Did we want to discuss the "dist tag on minor release" question?
17:32:45 <smooge> no that has not been brought up at all
17:32:52 <sgallagh> The question was raised about whether to abandon pending bodhi updates, but I thought it was unnecessary.
17:33:02 <sgallagh> smooge: nirik asked about it on the email thread
17:33:11 <smooge> in this meeting
17:33:16 <smooge> sorry
17:33:44 <sgallagh> Was I interpreting "ok anything else on this one?" too broadly?
17:34:07 <smooge> sorry.. lets back up
17:34:21 <smooge> that would be something to talk about and no one has brought it up at this meeting before
17:35:09 <sgallagh> Sorry, I interpreted "this one" as teh "EPEL Rawhide" topic.
17:35:26 <sgallagh> I thought you were asking for other items on that topic, so I raised one
17:35:29 <smooge> so question one is 'dist tag on minor release' and how that would fit into epel-staging
17:35:40 <smooge> and I agree that is a topic to be raised
17:36:08 <smooge> we are in violent agreement I think
17:36:29 <sgallagh> Please continue
17:39:18 <smooge> and I got pinged and had to tell someone later.. sorry
17:39:37 <smooge> ok so I think I just wanted to go over what we had on EPEL-8 currently
17:40:08 <smooge> in fedora staging the koji has the bare minimums to know about RHEL-8 and default modules
17:41:20 <smooge> the next steps are setting up the epel-release package with the right keys, get the signers to work, set up the branches and do test builds of packages to make sure things work
17:41:43 <smooge> then it will be to set up any other items in staging which are part of the build train
17:42:23 <smooge> bodhi, pdc, and probably some other items
17:43:08 <smooge> then have people do builds in stg with fedpkg-stage following a usual work pattern
17:43:24 <smooge> that should hopefully find all the skeletons in the closet
17:43:31 <smooge> s/all/many of/
17:44:21 <smooge> currently I have us leaving beta by end of June and then we can start implementing all this in July in production
17:45:36 <smooge> does that sound ok for everyone? I am hoping to hand it over for people to test builds etc around the 18th
17:46:07 <tdawson> Sounds good to me
17:46:31 <sgallagh> I don't think I get a vote, but that sounds nice and soon :)
17:46:54 <pgreco> that sounds optimistic, but I like it
17:48:37 <smooge> so a beta just means we get to build stuff and people could download things from koji.stg.fedoraproject.org. we don't have a staging downloader so composes I don't think will show up anywhere
17:49:06 <smooge> the rest of stuff showing for realz would be in July
17:49:31 <smooge> ok in that case I don't have anything else to say at the moment
17:49:48 <smooge> #topic open floor
17:50:39 <smooge> ok anything for the open floor? I think the minor distag and the bodhi-updates will need to be discussed at the next meeting when Kevin is here to articulate his wants
17:50:56 <pgreco> is there any concept around bootstrap/external repos?
17:51:20 <pgreco> I mean, many packages depend on the previous versions to build
17:52:25 <smooge> so for things which depend on previous builds, I expect we will have to use F28 for anything to do that
17:52:42 <smooge> that would be a good thing to test in builds as we will need to work out how that happens
17:53:25 <pgreco> that is what I was thinking (f28 or 29), but it needs a plan so we can tell people how to build those
17:53:26 <smooge> I found that f28 works reasonably well for any side buildroots that you need to do a chain on
17:53:49 <smooge> f29+ have newer pythons than what are in RHEL-8
17:54:28 <smooge> so I am thinking we will have to chain from f28 even if the branch/sources you use is f30
17:55:00 <sgallagh> Will there be a meeting next week or will it be in two weeks?
17:55:09 <pgreco> fwiw, for all the things I had to boostrap for centos8, I used f28
17:55:48 <smooge> there will be no meeting next week
17:56:16 <smooge> #info next meeting will be 2019-06-19 (hopefully at the right time)
17:57:15 <smooge> #info for any bootstrapping of EPEL-8, using F28 will be recommended.
17:57:33 <smooge> ok it is coming up to the hour.. and my headache medicine is calling
17:57:46 <smooge> anything else for this week?
17:57:51 <pgreco> ok, meeting in 2 minutes :D
17:57:56 <smooge> hahahaha
17:58:03 <smooge> #endmeeting