22:00:34 <tdawson> #startmeeting EPEL (2020-12-11)
22:00:34 <zodbot> Meeting started Fri Dec 11 22:00:34 2020 UTC.
22:00:34 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
22:00:34 <zodbot> The chair is tdawson. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
22:00:34 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
22:00:34 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'epel_(2020-12-11)'
22:00:35 <tdawson> #meetingname epel
22:00:35 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'epel'
22:00:36 <tdawson> #chair nirik tdawson bstinson pgreco carlwgeorge michel_slm
22:00:36 <zodbot> Current chairs: bstinson carlwgeorge michel_slm nirik pgreco tdawson
22:00:38 <tdawson> #topic aloha
22:01:07 <michel_slm> .hello salimma
22:01:09 <carlwgeorge> howdy
22:01:09 <zodbot> michel_slm: salimma 'Michel Alexandre Salim' <michel@michel-slm.name>
22:01:15 <tdawson> Hi michel_slm
22:01:18 <tdawson> Hi carlwgeorge
22:01:40 * michel_slm found a really cool site on Mastodon but forgot to re-toot it and now couldn't find the original toot to cite :p
22:01:42 <smooge> hllo
22:01:49 <michel_slm> search is hard
22:01:51 <tdawson> Hi smooge
22:02:00 <smooge> first meeting in forever
22:02:31 <tdawson> smooge: Does this mean that grobisplitter is working again?
22:03:04 <tdawson> smooge: We definatly miss you and your wisdom of the ages
22:05:25 <tdawson> Small crowd today, but that's sorta expected this week.
22:05:36 <tdawson> #topic Old Business
22:05:43 <tdawson> EPEL-Packaging-SIG
22:05:49 <carlwgeorge> oh why, is something big going on?  >:)
22:06:14 <michel_slm> wow, didn't expect this to get bumped over epel-next :)
22:06:31 <tdawson> Yep, apple is giving away free amazon kindles with every purchase of a google nest
22:06:33 <smooge> tdawson, so I had to back grobisplitter back to the one we had previously
22:06:35 <michel_slm> I think it's time to review the changes I proposed last week and in the mailing list a couple of days ago
22:07:05 <michel_slm> (I also propose we consider the document live after today, and upcoming changes go into an EPEL ticket first)
22:07:42 <tdawson> I'm ok with that.  I didn't see any negative things to the email.
22:07:45 <michel_slm> tdawson: apple, amazon, google... get netflix and facebook on it and it's a perfect... er what's a Trifecta with 5 sides
22:08:07 <smooge> I am I am ok
22:08:25 <smooge> quintecta ?
22:08:54 <michel_slm> pentagram
22:09:18 * michel_slm just realized this is logged and hoping HR didn't notice
22:09:26 <michel_slm> :p
22:09:37 <tdawson> :)
22:09:58 <tdawson> Oh ... ya ... probrubly shouldn't have mentioned all those.
22:10:50 <tdawson> Anyway ... the changes you have to the SIG doc look ok to me.  I know I'm ok with voting it in if others are.
22:11:04 <michel_slm> I take it tdawson and smooge just voted yes. any others?
22:11:12 <michel_slm> let me fetch the link to the email for completeness
22:11:55 <smooge> I don't have a vote these days
22:12:31 <michel_slm> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/epel-devel@lists.fedoraproject.org/thread/X2K3IMNBYLVOHGW6XYECB2F3EX4C2SJS/
22:12:48 <carlwgeorge> i haven't managed to look over the whole doc, but what i've seen so far looks good.  +1
22:12:52 <michel_slm> this for the wiki changes - https://fedoraproject.org/w/index.php?title=EPEL%2FPackagers&type=revision&diff=596506&oldid=592132
22:13:40 <tdawson> smooge you are an emeritis member ... doesn't that mean you always get a vote?   But ... either way, we'll put you down as a non-committe member voting positive
22:13:54 <bstinson> mark me down +1
22:15:12 <tdawson> #info EPEL Packagers SIG documentation voted on: Yes - 4 : No - 0 : Absent - 2  ... with 1 yes from a non-committee member.
22:15:45 <michel_slm> yay!
22:15:57 <tdawson> :)  Ya!!
22:16:14 <michel_slm> I don't have anything else on this topic. was busy catching up on the CentOS news as well as... ah, even worse news for my employer :p
22:16:35 <tdawson> michel_slm: Sounds good.  And thanks again for moving this forward
22:16:41 <tdawson> OK, next topic epel-next
22:17:29 <tdawson> carlwgeorge: How are things progressing?
22:18:36 <carlwgeorge> smooge hooked me up with the grobisplit repos, i was able to implement the koji stuff in staging and did a successful build
22:18:58 <carlwgeorge> next up is getting permissions to staging bodhi to figure out those steps https://pagure.io/releng/issue/9794#comment-705881
22:19:17 <tdawson> Cool ... it's really moving along.
22:19:29 <carlwgeorge> if anyone is curious what that looked like https://koji.stg.fedoraproject.org/koji/buildinfo?buildID=1621291
22:21:01 * michel_slm would like to clarify that FB <3 Stream and our bad news is unrelated
22:21:37 <tdawson> Nice ... it looks like the repos are all setup and it's looking good.
22:22:03 <smooge> after that it will be getting pungi and other thigns to produce and mirror manager and ..
22:23:13 <tdawson> All those ... little things? ... that make it usable.
22:24:04 <tdawson> Does it seem like it will at least be done in stg before the holidays?
22:24:53 <smooge> I am not sure
22:25:03 <smooge> releng next week will only be mohan
22:25:15 <smooge> nirik is out until January
22:26:16 <tdawson> Well ... I guess if it's not all setup ... at least test packages can be built in stg.
22:26:46 <tdawson> carlwgeorge: Is there anything you need from us to help?  perhaps do some test builds?
22:27:08 <carlwgeorge> if you like, but i don't think it's necessary
22:27:37 <carlwgeorge> so much of this is just reused and tweaked from epel8, so it's not uncharted territory
22:28:48 <tdawson> Sounds good then.  anything else before we move on?
22:29:04 <carlwgeorge> nope, go ahead
22:29:53 <tdawson> #topic EPEL-7
22:30:29 <tdawson> I don't have anything for EPEL7 ... does anyone else?
22:31:10 * tdawson takes a breath before moving to the next topic.
22:31:18 <tdawson> #topic EPEL-8
22:32:27 <tdawson> The biggest real discussion I've seen is what to do about missing -devel packages.
22:33:01 <tdawson> Most of the other discussions were misinformation, or emotions about the CentOS Linux news.
22:33:33 <tdawson> Although I did put out my proposal, I did have one question.
22:33:36 <michel_slm> as someone bitten by this in the past... is there a procedure to follow that's not one-off fixes? I think one of the missing dependencies I have (might have been libuv-devel) ended up being shipped separately
22:34:16 <michel_slm> (need to catch up on tdawson's proposal, apologies I missed it)
22:35:08 * nirik is here now... ca read back
22:35:16 <tdawson> That's sorta what my proposal is about.  We just assume that Red Hat will not release those packages, and we figure out doing things compeltely within EPEL
22:35:59 <tdawson> bstinson: carlwgeorge: Do either of you know if Red Hat is going to allow CentOS Stream Devel to exist?  Or at least be populated?
22:36:03 <carlwgeorge> there is a procedure, but sadly it's package by package requests https://wiki.centos.org/FAQ/CentOS8/UnshippedPackages
22:36:09 <michel_slm> I like Miro's proposal. if we can just take that unpublished -devel RPM and push it to epel instead of an official repo that would be sweet
22:36:11 <bstinson> the most correct way is to ask Red Hat for them to be shipped
22:36:35 * nirik hasn't read any of the proposals. were they on the list ? today?
22:36:39 <michel_slm> no "building twice and hope it matches" and also no support burden for RH. though yes, having RH ship it officially is even better
22:36:40 <carlwgeorge> tdawson: cs devel did exist, and we were required to empty it out
22:36:47 <michel_slm> it's from 4 hours ago or so in epel-devel
22:37:01 <michel_slm> carlwgeorge: sigh
22:37:09 <nirik> ah, well, I am sure I will read it when I catch up on email. I will abstain on any voting on it until then tho. :)
22:37:22 <carlwgeorge> i haven't read miro's proposal, but custom spec files to just ship a -devel package derived from a rhel spec file can be added to epel without review
22:37:31 <carlwgeorge> i.e. there is a blanket review exception for them
22:37:36 <tdawson> nirik: Oh, it's definatly not in the "vote on it" stage.   It's on the "is this possible" stage.
22:38:25 <michel_slm> carlwgeorge: if that's the case I wonder how easy it is to automate - have a tool that takes a spec, rename it to -devel and strip all the other packages
22:38:43 <tdawson> michel_slm: carlwgeorge: Correct ... Miro thought there was something prohibiting them, but there isn't.  I've got a half written reply ... but if others want to let him know he could do exactly what he proposed, they can beat me to it.
22:38:46 <michel_slm> or... if Koji can be told to "use this spec, but filter out all but -devel" that would work too
22:40:33 <tdawson> The more I think of it ... writting scripts to do that to specs ... it actually sounds easier that fighting with grobisplitter and module specs.
22:41:22 <nirik> it can't have the same name as the rhel package tho...
22:41:25 <michel_slm> I like my second proposal better, but yeah scripting would mean not having to change Koji
22:41:39 <michel_slm> nirik: yeah, I think the script will have to rename ${name} to ${name}-devel
22:42:20 <nirik> yeah... as long as name doesn't have a -devel subpackage that would probibly work.
22:42:33 <tdawson> Ya .... I'd rather change grobisplitter than all the testing that would have to go into koji to do a change like that.
22:43:18 <carlwgeorge> bullet 3 here https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/packaging-guidelines/ReviewGuidelines/#_package_review_process
22:44:01 <tdawson> carlwgeorge: Ya!!
22:44:25 <michel_slm> nice!
22:45:27 <michel_slm> thinking out loud, the build steps can be kept, all the parts in %files for the other subpackages prepended with %exclude, the name and summary and BR/Req etc. from devel added to the top and hey presto, you have a derived -devel-only package
22:45:52 <tdawson> michel_slm: Yep ... my thoughts exactly.
22:45:54 <smooge> so we can't just take th epackages out because they are in modules which have 'rules' which would not let you install them (aka filtered?)
22:46:04 <smooge> sorry scroll stopped
22:47:57 <tdawson> smooge: I didn't quite follow what you meant.  Were you saying that if the missing package was in a module, we wouldn't be able to do this?
22:48:01 <smooge> we also have to be careful with looking at the existing modules to see if there are rules for basically conflicts with the devel modules. I ran into this a lot with the beta
22:48:25 <smooge> with -devel rpm package (not devel modules)
22:49:07 <smooge> basically modularity rules seem to be able to do  'you can't have this package installed on your system' and some of the -devel packages were in one or two of the modules long ago
22:49:23 <tdawson> Youch ... correct.
22:49:32 <smooge> now grobisplitter removes that.. but joe-blow at home
22:49:46 <tdawson> I think libuv-devel might have been one of those packages.
22:49:52 <smooge> sorry packager-blow at home trying to get that
22:50:15 <smooge> working in his fedpkg local.. can't even if we have a module that says here it is
22:50:20 <michel_slm> ah yeah, I remember libuv-devel took a long time to sort out
22:50:21 <nirik> I thought that was moving into a rpm header...
22:50:33 <smooge> they can with a mock config
22:50:39 <michel_slm> shouldn't any modularity rule apply to modular RPMs only, and if it affects plain RPMs then it's a bug?
22:50:53 <smooge> nope
22:50:55 <michel_slm> I must sound really naive
22:51:09 <smooge> because a module needs to be abel to replace a non-modular package
22:51:52 <bstinson> also because that metadata needs to persist in the repo (and RHEL keeps a ton of modular component history in its shipped repodata)
22:51:56 <smooge> there are legitimate reasons for this
22:52:18 <smooge> ah yes.. bstinson I had that problem with grobisplitter on centos-stream
22:52:44 <smooge> patrick had put in a 'fix' to say never mind.. but it complained about missing metadata it couldn't check
22:53:15 <smooge> or stephen g did .. not sure which
22:53:38 * bstinson looks at perl in a way as to suggest that it highlighted similar problems before :P
22:53:58 <nirik> my understanding is that some of that metadata was going to move to being in the actual rpms, but I can't recall if thats happened yet or not
22:54:10 <smooge> anyway.. if you make a module with these things.. you may also need to put every package that the replacing module has in it
22:54:11 <bstinson> definitely not yet in EL8
22:55:01 <nirik> perhaps thats a 9 thing.
22:55:04 <smooge> there is one metadata which has been put into the rpms but it is not related to this.. it is 'you can't install a modular rpm like it was a bare module.. rpm is to choke if you try and don't turn off a flag'
22:55:05 * nirik shrugs.
22:55:23 <smooge> the hotpatch flag I think
22:55:48 <smooge> the filter rules are done at a 'higher' level
22:56:17 <tdawson> Our time is running low, and we can continue to talk about this, but I just want to ask if there was anything else someone really wanted to bring up?
22:56:43 <michel_slm> I think Neal is going to pop up soon and might want to say something
22:56:50 <smooge> anyway.. from talking with the original modularity people at EPEL-8 standup for what could be done in EPEL-8 it was pretty much make a module with a different yaml than the Red Hat one which has all the items unfiltered
22:56:52 * nirik had a short item for open floor, whenever that is
22:56:54 * King_InuYasha waves
22:56:58 <King_InuYasha> .hello ngompa
22:56:59 <zodbot> King_InuYasha: ngompa 'Neal Gompa' <ngompa13@gmail.com>
22:57:08 <King_InuYasha> it's been a rough week, sorry about being late
22:57:09 <tdawson> #topic General Issues / Open Floor
22:57:18 <tdawson> Hi King_InuYasha
22:57:25 <smooge> ok nirik has first dibs on open floor?
22:57:30 <tdawson> yep
22:57:49 <nirik> #info user managed side-tags are now available in epel7/8 and bootstrap mode is enabled (announcement to come later today with details about that)
22:58:04 <tdawson> Ya!!
22:58:05 <michel_slm> nirik++
22:58:05 <zodbot> michel_slm: Karma for kevin changed to 16 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
22:58:24 <michel_slm> we need to implement karma for EL release cycles :p
22:58:28 <King_InuYasha> woot!
22:58:34 <Conan_Kudo> nirik++
22:58:51 <orionp> nifty.  nirik++
22:58:51 <zodbot> orionp: Karma for kevin changed to 17 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
22:59:34 <tdawson> King_InuYasha: Did you have something too?
22:59:52 <King_InuYasha> not really, I just freaked when I realized that I missed everything
22:59:57 <tdawson> :)
23:00:21 <King_InuYasha> my day started at 4am EST
23:00:34 <King_InuYasha> the tail end of a hackathon
23:00:52 <tdawson> Well, looks like our time is up.  Thank you everyone for keeping this civil and on topic.  I know that was harder this week and I appreciate it.
23:00:54 <nirik> same here... koji outage pages woke me. ;(
23:01:21 <King_InuYasha> man, I feel for you nirik
23:01:32 <michel_slm> thanks tdawson
23:01:33 <tdawson> Talk to you all next week.
23:01:34 <King_InuYasha> last week, I was on-call at work
23:01:40 * smooge can't sleep the clowns keep eating me
23:01:41 <tdawson> #endmeeting