20:00:31 <tdawson> #startmeeting EPEL (2023-04-19)
20:00:31 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Apr 19 20:00:31 2023 UTC.
20:00:31 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
20:00:31 <zodbot> The chair is tdawson. Information about MeetBot at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Zodbot#Meeting_Functions.
20:00:31 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
20:00:31 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'epel_(2023-04-19)'
20:00:32 <tdawson> #meetingname epel
20:00:32 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'epel'
20:00:34 <tdawson> #chair nirik tdawson pgreco carlwgeorge salimma dcavalca dherrera gotmax23 smooge
20:00:34 <zodbot> Current chairs: carlwgeorge dcavalca dherrera gotmax23 nirik pgreco salimma smooge tdawson
20:00:35 <tdawson> #topic aloha
20:00:41 <jonathanspw> .hi
20:00:42 <zodbot> jonathanspw: jonathanspw 'Jonathan Wright' <jonathan@almalinux.org>
20:00:57 <carlwgeorge> .hi
20:00:58 <zodbot> carlwgeorge: carlwgeorge 'Carl George' <carl@redhat.com>
20:01:03 <rsc> .hello robert
20:01:05 <zodbot> rsc: robert 'Robert Scheck' <redhat@linuxnetz.de>
20:01:26 <nirik> morning
20:01:29 <tdawson> Hi jonathanspw and carlwgeorge
20:01:34 <tdawson> Hello rsc
20:01:38 <tdawson> Morning nirik
20:01:41 <Eighth_Doctor> .hello ngompa
20:01:42 <zodbot> Eighth_Doctor: ngompa 'Neal Gompa' <ngompa13@gmail.com>
20:01:59 <salimma> .hello
20:01:59 <zodbot> salimma: (hello <an alias, 1 argument>) -- Alias for "hellomynameis $1".
20:02:02 <salimma> .hi
20:02:03 <zodbot> salimma: salimma 'Michel Alexandre Salim' <michel@michel-slm.name>
20:02:09 <Eighth_Doctor> whoa
20:02:16 <Eighth_Doctor> what's the difference between hello and hi?
20:02:30 <salimma> hello needs your nick
20:02:39 <dminer> interesting...
20:02:42 <salimma> hi calls hello with your IRC nick assuming that's the fas
20:02:49 <dminer> .hi
20:02:49 <Eighth_Doctor> oh so hi is like hello2
20:02:50 <zodbot> dminer: dminer 'Dalton Miner' <daltonminer@gmail.com>
20:02:51 <Eighth_Doctor> .hi
20:02:52 <salimma> or... wait I think it translates it based on the mapping in fas
20:02:56 <zodbot> Eighth_Doctor: Sorry, but user 'Eighth_Doctor' does not exist
20:03:06 <Eighth_Doctor> yup that still doesn't work 🤣
20:03:14 <tdawson> Hi salimma dminer and Eighth_Doctor
20:03:26 <salimma> I think it only looks at IRC nicks not Matrix
20:03:27 <dminer> intersting haha. I guess I have my IRC nick set to dminer then, because my matrix ID is daltonminer
20:03:27 <salimma> since it's an IRC bot :)
20:03:31 <Eighth_Doctor> well, IRC side, I should show up as Eighth_Doctor
20:03:32 <tdawson> Eighth_Doctor: Don't worry ... we still believe you exist
20:04:07 * salimma laughs bitterly in layoff land
20:04:11 <Eighth_Doctor> which FAS is supposed to know :P
20:04:12 <Eighth_Doctor> the bot is buggy with me, I've accepted this for a long time :)
20:04:16 <Eighth_Doctor> oh no
20:04:40 <Eighth_Doctor> you were laid off?
20:04:41 <salimma> oh, I'm fine, but some colleagues got the axe
20:04:46 <Eighth_Doctor> oh god
20:04:48 <dherrera> .hi
20:04:49 <zodbot> dherrera: dherrera 'Diego Herrera' <dherrera@redhat.com>
20:04:51 <nirik> :(
20:04:53 <Eighth_Doctor> you gave me a heart attack
20:04:57 <tdawson> Hi dherrera
20:05:19 <Eighth_Doctor> (obviously it sucks that people have been laid off, but I don't want you to lose your job)
20:05:27 <tdawson> #topic End Of Life (EOL)
20:05:28 <tdawson> RHEL 7 will go EOL on 2024-06-30
20:05:30 <tdawson> CentOS Stream 8 goes EOL in 2024-05-31
20:05:31 <tdawson> CentOS Stream 9 goes EOL in 2027-05-31
20:05:46 <Eighth_Doctor> it's a weird feeling seeing the newer version end before the older one
20:06:25 <carlwgeorge> Eighth_Doctor: of course the bot is buggy for you, it doesn't expect people to have a dozen nics :P
20:06:27 <tdawson> Yep ... and as far as I can tell, that isn't changing ... so epel8-next will end with Stream 8.
20:06:48 <Eighth_Doctor> carlwgeorge: lol
20:06:55 <nirik> might add epel8-next to the EOLS?
20:07:00 <Eighth_Doctor> probably a good idea
20:07:53 <tdawson> RHEL 7 / epel-7 will go EOL on 2024-06-30
20:07:54 <tdawson> CentOS Stream 8 / epel-8-next goes EOL in 2024-05-31
20:07:56 <tdawson> CentOS Stream 9 / epel-9-next goes EOL in 2027-05-31
20:08:07 <tdawson> Like that?
20:08:13 <neil> .hi
20:08:14 <zodbot> neil: neil 'Neil Hanlon' <neil@shrug.pw>
20:08:18 <nirik> yeah, sounds good. well, reads good I guess.
20:08:19 <tdawson> Hi neil
20:08:20 <Eighth_Doctor> tdawson: yeah
20:08:23 <neil> heya tdawson
20:08:39 <carlwgeorge> tdawson: lgtm
20:08:53 <tdawson> OK, I've changed it on my agenda notes.
20:08:56 <tdawson> #topic EPEL Issues https://pagure.io/epel/issues
20:08:58 <tdawson> https://pagure.io/epel/issues?tags=meeting&status=Open
20:09:16 <tdawson> Sorry, fast transition there. :)
20:09:21 <Eighth_Doctor> once EPEL8-next drops off, we should add RHEL 8+9 EOLs
20:10:10 <tdawson> It's going to be wierd having RHEL 8 / EPEL 8 be 5 years old ... RHEL 8 was the first RHEL I was part of.
20:10:33 <tdawson> Anywy .... as for issues ... we don't have any new ones this week, and none marked for the meeting.
20:10:42 <tdawson> #topic EPEL Issues https://pagure.io/epel/issues
20:10:43 <tdawson> https://pagure.io/epel/issues?tags=meeting&status=Open
20:10:47 <tdawson> Ugg ... sorry .
20:10:55 <tdawson> #topic Old Business
20:11:38 <tdawson> carlwgeorge: I'm going to bring up the Documentation new layout ... just cuz I got a bit confused today.
20:11:54 * carlwgeorge nods
20:12:06 <tdawson> carlwgeorge: So others don't get confused (and maybe it was just me) ... what steps are you doing right now?
20:13:34 <carlwgeorge> i've mentioned a documentation overhaul.  i've created an overhaul branch in the doc repo, with the old docs moved out of the way, the new table of contents, and the antora files synced with the fedora template
20:13:38 <carlwgeorge> #link https://pagure.io/epel/commits/overhaul
20:14:53 <carlwgeorge> my intent is that now myself and others can start sending pull requests to the overhaul branch to work on restructuring the docs in smaller pieces.  once we feel the overhaul branch is where we want it to be, then we can do a big merge of that into the main branch.
20:14:58 <nirik> is there a preview? or we can pull it locally to do that?
20:15:32 <carlwgeorge> i have something of a preview at https://carlwgeorge.fedorapeople.org/epel-docs/epel/, but it has way more in it that what's in git so far
20:16:06 <tdawson> You can pull it locally and run docsbuilder.sh if you want
20:16:19 <carlwgeorge> my first two prs are https://pagure.io/epel/pull-request/224 and https://pagure.io/epel/pull-request/225, once those are merged i'll regenerate a preview and push it up to my fedorapeople space
20:16:31 <tdawson> docsbuilder.sh is in the repo.
20:16:32 <nirik> coolio.
20:17:01 <carlwgeorge> i'll try to keep that preview current over time as we get more progress done on it
20:18:00 <carlwgeorge> my initial focus is rearranging docs with perhaps light rewording, not changing policies or guidelines.  think first draft instead of perfection immediately.
20:18:17 <tdawson> Ha ... which is where my confusion came from. :)
20:19:32 <tdawson> carlwgeorge: Would you want help bringing things over?  Or do you think we'd just be stepping on each others toes?
20:20:34 <carlwgeorge> there's a potential for stepping on toes, but yes help would be nice.  so i guess just coordinate somewhat in #epel when you want to focus on a section of content.
20:20:55 <tdawson> Sounds good.
20:21:32 <carlwgeorge> e.g. you could say "i'm gonna work on writing the new 'contact us' page" so no one else starts that work
20:21:51 <carlwgeorge> it would be a bit frustrating to be working on something silently then see another pr pop up to do the same thing
20:22:18 <tdawson> Yep.
20:22:56 <tdawson> carlwgeorge: I've probrubly said this before, but i'll say it again, thank you for your work on this.  Getting documentation looking good can be alot of work.
20:23:25 <tdawson> Anything else before we move on?
20:24:33 <tdawson> Any other Old Business that anyone wants to bring up?
20:24:40 <nirik> +1
20:25:46 <tdawson> #topic General Issues / Open Floor
20:26:02 <tdawson> Does anyone have anything for Open Floor?
20:26:40 <yselkowitz[m]> I have added my packages to ELN Extras, wondering if there is a general effort to use ELN Extras to prepare for EPEL 10?
20:27:14 <carlwgeorge> it's come up as an idea for pre-creating epel10 branches, but i'm not aware of any progress towards that yet
20:28:18 <tdawson> Ya.  The number of packages in ELN Extras is much smaller than what's in epel9 ... so even if we did that, it wouldn't really help too much.
20:28:28 <carlwgeorge> i think it's basically waiting on a volunteer to do a deep dive on what it would take to do such a mass branch event
20:29:34 <salimma> what's the timeline for epel 10 again? Davide and I are also interested in this
20:29:35 <carlwgeorge> i agree with tdawson, using eln extras as a reference is a good idea, but it would be even better to included "does it have an epel9 branch" into that logic.  even if the package never gets added to epel10, creating the branch doesn't hurt anything and is easy to retire if it indeed doesn't make sense for epel10.
20:29:46 <tdawson> Oh ... it's up above 1000 packages - https://tiny.distro.builders/view--view-eln-extras.html
20:29:57 <Eighth_Doctor> and KDE SIG is interested in this too
20:30:27 <carlwgeorge> rhel9 was 2022, so rhel10 will be 2025.  working backwards from that means i would expect c10 in 2024, and hopefully we can deliver epel10 around the same time.
20:30:35 <Eighth_Doctor> because I really don't want to do that whole effort manually again
20:30:39 <Eighth_Doctor> it sucked
20:31:19 <Eighth_Doctor> importantly, Fedora 40 is next spring
20:31:25 <Eighth_Doctor> and that's what CentOS Stream 10 is branched from
20:31:31 <Eighth_Doctor> so this is the run-up to that :)
20:31:54 <jonathanspw> by fedora 40 you mean faster dnf :D
20:31:56 <tdawson> Wha ... already  ... man ... I better get busy.
20:32:19 <carlwgeorge> i'm hopeful that by the end of this year we have all the details for epel10 agreed upon, and hopefully a demo of parts of it in staging
20:33:07 * salimma needs to get busy on ELN work in H2
20:34:02 <dminer> jonathanspw: excite!
20:35:15 <tdawson> So the question nobody I've seen ask is ... will subscription-manager be faster?
20:35:17 <carlwgeorge> #info seeking volunteer to investigate mass branching epel10 based on eln-extras and/or epel9 branches
20:35:28 <Eighth_Doctor> lol
20:35:41 <Eighth_Doctor> tdawson: you're funny
20:35:56 <salimma> carlwgeorge: I'm interested, what's the scope?
20:37:56 <carlwgeorge> my thinking is reviewing the mass branching releng playbooks and determine if an adaptation of those will work for mass creating epel10 branches, based on some criteria
20:38:10 <salimma> ahh
20:38:28 <tdawson> Eighth_Doctor: It's something I've brought up many times internally.  It's a legitimate reason that some people don't use RHEL vs clone.  (And by some people, I usually mean me)
20:38:33 <salimma> if we have documentation on where they are I'm interested in taking a look
20:38:46 <Eighth_Doctor> tdawson: it's why I don't
20:39:10 <carlwgeorge> i'm sure nirik is finding the exact location but i bet it's in pagure.io/releng
20:39:11 <Eighth_Doctor> and the way that subman works means that you have to run it all the time to be authenticated for repos
20:40:16 <tdawson> yep
20:40:28 <nirik> There's a number of different things. The doc is at https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/infra/release_guide/sop_mass_branching/
20:40:42 <carlwgeorge> nirik++
20:42:51 <salimma> nirik++
20:43:01 <Eighth_Doctor> nirik++
20:43:20 <Eighth_Doctor> kevin++
20:43:21 <salimma> note: I don't expect to be the only person looking at this, so by no means should you be dissuaded from taking a look too :)
20:43:29 * salimma needs to work on some Btrfs toys first
20:43:40 <Eighth_Doctor> 🧈
20:43:46 <nirik> and mailman3 for rhel9? ;)
20:43:47 * nirik runs
20:44:00 <Eighth_Doctor> that's pretty close to being ready, I think
20:44:04 <nirik> But yeah, any help with mass branching welcome.
20:44:24 <Eighth_Doctor> and I believe jonathanspw was looking at the FAS stack
20:44:42 <jonathanspw> sort of...sadly I think i'm having to abandon the idea of ipsilon
20:44:46 <salimma> nirik: yes, that too
20:44:52 <Eighth_Doctor> I'm working on making pagure 6.0 happen for RHEL 9
20:45:03 <salimma> slowly clawing my way through that, I took a complete break while on sabbatical
20:45:08 <Eighth_Doctor> refreshing everything for latest versions of stuff, fixing the CI, etc. is a slog :)
20:45:23 <Eighth_Doctor> but we got a new contributor excited about the project, so :D
20:45:24 <nirik> yep. it's painfull, but appreciated!
20:45:28 <jonathanspw> is anyone planning to give mirrormanager some love?  I'm happy to help but I don't think I can tackle it alone due to my unfamiliarity with it
20:45:30 <rsc> Eighth_Doctor: is Pagure still a thing - wasn't GitLab supposed to be the successor?
20:45:37 * Eighth_Doctor sighs
20:45:47 * salimma > <@rsc:libera.chat> Conan Kudo: is Pagure still a thing - wasn't GitLab supposed to be the successor?
20:45:48 * salimma opens popcorn
20:45:54 <carlwgeorge> lol
20:45:58 <salimma> jonathanspw: what does it need?
20:46:05 <rsc> salimma: okay, I am taking back this question, even it was meant seriously.
20:46:08 <jonathanspw> well it's still running on python2...
20:46:13 <jonathanspw> salimma
20:46:23 <nirik> jonathanspw: do reach out to adrian (the maintainer). I think he would at least help out moving to rhel9
20:46:28 <Eighth_Doctor> I ported the mm2 code to Python 3 years ago, and apparently nobody deployed it
20:46:31 <Eighth_Doctor> so the port rotted
20:46:41 <Eighth_Doctor> and it's broken again
20:47:05 <carlwgeorge> rsc: tldr, it's not dead per say, but red hat isn't investing in it anymore.  Eighth_Doctor is basically keeping it on life support.
20:47:30 <jonathanspw> perhaps neil and team could help with mm as well
20:47:31 <Eighth_Doctor> and still trying to do community building
20:47:48 <Eighth_Doctor> I try to do that for all the fedora-infra apps
20:48:23 <Eighth_Doctor> otherwise they all die because nobody pays attention to them and they fall into disrepair, like bodhi, pdc, and other similar apps that don't see outside adoption
20:48:54 <rsc> carlwgeorge: sounds strange. But I'm not sure if I should ask why it is as it is...
20:49:03 <salimma> on the mailman front, I should note that the conference organizers for Southern Calif Linux Expo want to use it too
20:49:14 <nirik> I'm... not sure if I want to discuss this... so I will just sit quietly
20:49:21 <salimma> so... if anyone has spare time and want to help get the django dependencies into epel9 that'd be much appreciated
20:49:24 <Eighth_Doctor> Michel Alexandre Salim 🎩: the bugzilla.org folks do too
20:49:49 <salimma> because after that, and getting mailman3 back in Fedora, I think everything should be smooth
20:51:16 <tdawson> Anything else for Open Floor?
20:52:37 <tdawson> Thank you all for coming, and for the good discussions.  And thank ya'll for all you do for EPEL and it's community.
20:52:52 <tdawson> I'll talk to you next week, unless I talk to you sooner.
20:53:01 <tdawson> #endmeeting