17:02:30 <tflink> #startmeeting f19alpha-blocker-review-1
17:02:30 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Mar 13 17:02:30 2013 UTC.  The chair is tflink. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
17:02:30 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
17:02:30 <tflink> #meetingname f19alpha-blocker-review-1
17:02:30 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'f19alpha-blocker-review-1'
17:02:30 <tflink> #topic Roll Call
17:02:43 * kparal is here for 20 minutes
17:02:44 * satellit_e listening
17:02:51 <tflink> Who's ready for some blocker review fun?
17:03:55 * jreznik is here for that few months of blocker bugs review meetings fun
17:04:21 <tflink> hopefully it'll be less painful than 18 was
17:05:12 <jreznik> yep
17:06:21 * tflink waits another minute or so for others to join
17:08:43 <tflink> I kind of wish we had a few more people but I guess let's get started
17:08:58 <tflink> #topic Introduction
17:09:06 <tflink> Why are we here?
17:09:08 <tflink> #info Our purpose in this meeting is to review proposed blocker and nice-to-have bugs and decide whether to accept them, and to monitor the progress of fixing existing accepted blocker and nice-to-have bugs.
17:09:16 <tflink> #info We'll be following the process outlined at:
17:09:16 <tflink> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA:SOP_Blocker_Bug_Meeting
17:09:22 <tflink> #info The bugs up for review today are available at:
17:09:22 <tflink> #link http://qa.fedoraproject.org/blockerbugs/current
17:09:28 <tflink> #info The criteria for release blocking bugs can be found at:
17:09:28 <tflink> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_19_Alpha_Release_Criteria
17:09:53 <tflink> #info Up for review today, we have:
17:09:59 <tflink> #info 2 Proposed Blockers
17:09:59 <tflink> #info 0 Accepted Blockers
17:09:59 <tflink> #info 1 Proposed Freeze Exceptions
17:09:59 <tflink> #info 0 Accepted Freeze Exceptions
17:10:23 <tflink> unless there are objections, I'll get started with the proposed blockers
17:10:48 <tflink> #topic (919743) gdm unusable on old video card
17:10:48 <tflink> #link https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=919743
17:10:48 <tflink> #info Proposed Blocker, gdm, NEW
17:11:41 <tflink> hrm, it would be nice to know how many cards are affected by this
17:11:41 <kparal> I see the fail whale even in VMs. so I don't think this is related to a particular hw
17:11:53 <tflink> ah, nvm then
17:12:21 <tflink> is firstboot affected?
17:12:38 <kparal> so we need to fix the general issue first and then have a look at older hw
17:12:45 <kparal> I never saw any firstboot on F19
17:13:45 <tflink> isn't there some big change for firstboot planned for F19?
17:13:58 <jreznik> tflink: initial-setup is the new name
17:14:09 <tflink> using a gnome tool for gnome installs and firstboot for everything else?
17:14:14 <tflink> hrm,
17:14:18 <jreznik> last time I talked to marsik, it should be ready now with working systemd stuff around
17:14:29 <tflink> hrm, the criteria need to be updated then
17:14:32 <jreznik> tflink: no info about the new gnome one
17:14:38 <kparal> msivak said it will be ready after a new anaconda build is ready
17:14:41 <kparal> which currently isn't
17:14:46 <tflink> ah
17:14:59 <tflink> ok, we can deal with that when it changes, then
17:15:05 <jreznik> but firstboot is now called initial setup (not talking about gnome initial experience)
17:15:07 <tflink> thoughts on blocker?
17:15:28 <jreznik> (so quite confusing)
17:15:31 <tflink> #info for F19, firstboot is now called initial setup
17:16:07 <tflink> kparal: do you know if there is a bug for the VM issue you mentioned?
17:17:53 * nirik is sorta here. ping if I can help.
17:18:13 <kparal> unfortunately I don't know
17:18:42 <kparal> but punt this bug now, it seems very possible this will turn out to be a non-issue
17:19:13 <tflink> how so?
17:19:32 <kparal> because I think this is really not related to hardware, but generally broken
17:20:30 <jreznik> if it's generally broken, it's actually worst
17:20:40 <kparal> it's easier to fix :)
17:21:01 <tflink> I'm not sure I follow you on how that leads to a punt but it wouldn't hurt to have more information
17:21:15 <tflink> well, more likely to be fixed, anyways
17:21:44 <kparal> depends how you look at it. I think we can punt this bug and find the general fail whale bug and put a blocker status on that one
17:21:45 <tflink> hrm, the topic wasn't changed
17:22:10 <kparal> but other approaches are possible
17:22:15 <kparal> I'm sorry, I need to leave now
17:22:30 <tflink> kparal: ok - sorry about the time mixup
17:22:46 <kparal> np
17:23:36 <tflink> proposed #agreed 919743 - We suspect that this is a more general problem not limited to older graphics hardware - will revisit at the next meeting after more triage work has been done
17:23:41 <jreznik> the second bug is probably connected to this general breakage too
17:23:45 <tflink> ack/nak/patch?
17:23:50 <kparal> ack
17:26:27 <tflink> sigh, not sure we have enough people for quorum anymore
17:26:34 * nirik looks up
17:26:36 <tflink> we were pushing it with 3 of us
17:26:46 <nirik> ack
17:26:52 <jreznik> ack
17:27:03 <tflink> #agreed 919743 - We suspect that this is a more general problem not limited to older graphics hardware - will revisit at the next meeting after more triage work has been done
17:27:20 <tflink> #topic (909473) Fail whale page appears after logging in
17:27:20 <tflink> #link https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=909473
17:27:20 <tflink> #info Proposed Blocker, gnome-shell, NEW
17:28:20 * nirik waits for bugzilla
17:28:33 <adamw> sorry i'm late
17:29:01 <tflink> adamw: no worries
17:29:14 <jreznik> hi adamw!
17:29:17 * nirik thinks the report needs more info... gdm messages output, X output, etc.
17:29:40 <jreznik> and seems like it's a similar generic issue as with the previous one
17:29:41 <nirik> also, if kdm works, is this a gnome-shell bug?
17:29:43 <tflink> yeah, I also suspect that this and 919743 are related
17:30:05 <tflink> does kdm require llvmpipe when no hw 3d is present?
17:30:37 <adamw> this could be related to the blacklisting I guess..
17:31:18 <adamw> kdm shouldn't
17:31:20 <tflink> proposed #agreed 909473 - This needs more triage and logs before we make a decision on blocker status but we suspect that it could be related to 919743 - will revisit at the next review meeting
17:31:29 <jreznik> tflink: kdm does not need acceleration
17:31:53 <tflink> adamw: kparal mentioned that he's been seeing something similar with VMs, so it might be llvmpipe
17:32:08 <jreznik> llvmpipe is completely blacklisted in kwin, upstream does not want it ever enabled :)
17:32:17 <jreznik> yep, could be llvmpipe
17:33:08 <tflink> either way, I don't think we have quite enough information to work off of right now
17:33:16 <jreznik> same as the previous one
17:33:21 <adamw> blacklisted cards don't fall back to llvmpipe, that's a longstanding issue. i don't think they broke at gdm before, though.
17:33:23 <tflink> ack/nak/patch to the proposal?
17:33:43 <jreznik> proposal?
17:33:48 <jreznik> ah, I see
17:33:51 <jreznik> sorry, blind today
17:33:55 <jreznik> ack
17:33:58 <adamw> ack
17:34:08 <tflink> didn't fallback mode get removed for gnome 3.8?
17:34:20 <tflink> or was that just discussion?
17:34:42 <tflink> #agreed 909473 - This needs more triage and logs before we make a decision on blocker status but we suspect that it could be related to 919743 - will revisit at the next review meeting
17:34:57 <tflink> and that would be all of the blockers for today :)
17:35:03 <adamw> yeah...non-3D fallback got removed for classic...
17:35:05 <adamw> that may be it.
17:35:34 <adamw> yeah, can we just make 909473 a blocker? now i wake up i think i see what's going on
17:35:58 <tflink> adamw: oh?
17:36:02 <tflink> #undo
17:36:02 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Agreed object at 0x248a8150>
17:36:05 <adamw> we need blacklisted cards to fallback to llvmpipe now.
17:36:15 <adamw> or else gnome just isn't going to work, as there's no unaccelerated session for them.
17:36:34 <adamw> it's clearly a blocker, only question is whether it's a dupe
17:36:46 <tflink> are there enough people using blacklisted cards to justify taking it as a blocker?
17:36:57 <jreznik> if gdm needs llvmpipe, then it's dupe I'd say
17:37:36 <adamw> jreznik: it's not gdm
17:37:38 <adamw> it's gnome
17:37:49 <adamw> well, may be gdm _too_, but gnome is the simplest case.
17:37:52 <jreznik> one is gnome, one was gdm
17:37:55 <adamw> ah
17:38:02 <adamw> more or less the same bug then
17:38:14 <adamw> what was the other bug so i can see it?>
17:38:29 <tflink> proposed #agreed 909473 - AcceptedBlocker - With gnome 3.8, the non-3d-accelerated option is being removed and blacklisted cards don't fallback to llvmpipe making them unusable with gnome
17:38:30 <jreznik> adamw: 919743
17:38:31 <adamw> tflink: for alpha, hum, maybe not. we don't need info, though.
17:39:21 <adamw> yeah, they're pretty much dupes.
17:39:35 <adamw> whether they're blocker for alpha depends how much we care about blacklisted hardware. i think maybe beta.
17:39:54 <jreznik> more beta but earlier fixed, better
17:40:14 <tflink> alpha fe, then?
17:40:36 * tflink is going to type nth several times before that change really sinks in
17:41:19 * adamw gets out the training whip
17:41:38 <adamw> fe would be reasonable as it's unlikely to make stuff worse and is a config rather than code change
17:42:28 <tflink> proposed #agreed 909473 - RejectedBlocker, AcceptedFreezeException - With gnome 3.8, the non-3d-accelerated option is being removed and blacklisted cards don't fallback to llvmpipe making them unusable with gnome. While not quite an alpha issue due to the limited amount of hw affected, a tested fix would be considered after F19 alpha freeze
17:44:03 <adamw> ack
17:44:09 <jreznik> ack
17:44:21 <adamw> i'll double check all that with ajax and bring it up again if i'm wrong
17:44:28 <jreznik> ok, thanks
17:44:30 <tflink> #agreed 909473 - RejectedBlocker, AcceptedFreezeException - With gnome 3.8, the non-3d-accelerated option is being removed and blacklisted cards don't fallback to llvmpipe making them unusable with gnome. While not quite an alpha issue due to the limited amount of hw affected, a tested fix would be considered after F19 alpha freeze
17:44:37 <adamw> did someone secretarialize already? or should i go back over the notes and do it?
17:45:03 <tflink> adamw: I don't think so - I was going to do it after the meeting if it didn't get done
17:45:08 <tflink> OK,
17:45:09 <adamw> okay, i'll get it
17:45:23 <tflink> OK, that's all of the proposed blockers for today
17:45:25 <tflink> on
17:45:35 <tflink> on to the proposed FE!
17:46:00 <tflink> and remembering where the return key is so I don't keep hitting it by accident :-\
17:46:12 <tflink> #topic (894110) The "standard" comps group could use a bit of spring cleaning
17:46:15 <tflink> #link https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=894110
17:46:17 <tflink> #info Proposed Freeze Exceptions, comps, NEW
17:46:44 <tflink> I agree with adamw here, -1 FE - the FE process is not a todo list
17:47:02 <jreznik> it's abuse of process, -1
17:47:41 <tflink> proposed #agreed 894110 - RejectedFreezeException - This bug does not meet the requirements of a FE and should be tracked like a normal bug.
17:47:52 <tflink> ack/nak/patch?
17:48:24 <adamw> ack
17:50:07 <tflink> #agreed 894110 - RejectedFreezeException - This bug does not meet the requirements of a FE and should be tracked like a normal bug.
17:50:09 <jreznik> ack
17:50:23 <tflink> #topic Open Floor
17:50:43 * tflink wishes all blocker review meetings were this short
17:50:58 <tflink> anything else that should be brought up?
17:51:25 <tflink> I assume that we'll start seeing more blocker/fe proposals once we have more images to test
17:51:36 * nirik nods.
17:52:00 * tflink needs to get set up for building smoke images for F19
17:52:09 <nirik> should be x86_64 images at least in branched today (whenever it manages to copy)
17:52:49 <jreznik> yep, smoke is what we want now
17:53:02 <jreznik> we would probably need that anaconda build kparal mentioned with inital setup
17:53:29 <satellit_e> +1 for testable f19 .isos
17:53:35 <tflink> yeah, it sounds like we're waiting on that and for the F19 sync (unless that's done now)
17:54:23 <nirik> it's not. actually branched also got restarted...
17:54:29 <nirik> do both rawhide and branched will land later today
17:54:35 <nirik> s/do/so/
17:54:45 <tflink> ok, sounds good
17:55:12 <tflink> nirik: are you talking about the boot.iso that's in the tree or the nightly builds?
17:55:22 <nirik> the boot.iso in the tree.
17:55:31 <tflink> ok, cool
17:56:26 <tflink> if there's nothing else ...
17:56:48 * tflink sets the fuse for [0,inf) minutes
17:57:45 <tflink> thanks for coming, everyone!
17:57:53 * tflink will send out minutes shortly
17:57:57 <tflink> #endmeeting