01:00:01 #startmeeting FAmNA 01:00:01 Meeting started Wed Apr 4 01:00:01 2012 UTC. The chair is inode0. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 01:00:01 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 01:00:03 #meetingname FAmNA 01:00:03 The meeting name has been set to 'famna' 01:00:12 #chair rbergeron nb 01:00:12 Current chairs: inode0 nb rbergeron 01:00:22 #topic Roll Call 01:00:29 oh, i just got home 01:01:22 hi nb and inode0 :) 01:01:49 * inode0 may drop off suddenly so others should just take over if that happens 01:02:08 ok 01:02:40 My normally good connection just came back to life tonight and I'm not sure how it will last 01:03:08 good evening everyone 01:03:25 while people straggle in let's go ahead and begin 01:03:31 #topic Announcements 01:04:38 none from me 01:04:56 * inode0 thinks in case he should announce something he can't remember 01:05:44 ok 01:05:46 #topic Tickets 01:06:04 evening everyone 01:06:06 .famnatickets 31 01:06:18 .famnaticket 31 01:06:21 inode0: #31 (Trademark Guidelines Draft Proposal Feedback) – FAmNA general trac - https://fedorahosted.org/famna/ticket/31 01:06:32 * inode0 should alias that too 01:07:02 #link http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Pchestek/TMGuidelinesDraft#Non-Software_Promotional_Goods 01:07:42 So, I am sad there aren't more people here who actually have been involved in producing swag as this affects them directly and their feedback is important 01:08:30 i am not experiance enough yet to make any suggestions on that as of yet, although the read was good 01:08:34 Does anyone have any comments or concerns about this? 01:08:54 besides inode0 I mean :) 01:09:18 inode, i would like to hear what you have to say 01:09:24 I'm afraid I also don't have enough experience yet either, so it was an informative read but I haven't 'practiced' producing swag yet 01:09:52 Same here for the swag as I just came in the past few weeks 01:10:01 right, I understand and I wish some of the people who have been through the process were here to discuss it 01:10:46 I can add some historical context if you'd like me to 01:10:56 please 01:11:24 About 5 years ago things were mostly made by Red Hat (swag and media) 01:11:58 Some ambassadors would make a few t-shirts for a specific event here and there, but almost all of it was made by Red Hat 01:12:28 When we wanted swag we would ask one person to send us some if they could. 01:12:43 They did their best but often there wasn't much available. 01:13:33 So some other Red Hat people who also were Fedora people came to us and basically said Red Hat can't do a very good job of making these things so would you like to try? 01:14:03 We felt empowered by that and we did try. We tried hard. 01:14:39 herlo here grabbed the media side of it and quickly began producing higher quality media at a lower price. 01:14:55 oh, hai 01:15:00 I think fedora is doing better making there own swag then red hat did. I remember that happening. Also maybe there needs to be more consistenty with getting the swag ordered and where it needs to be 01:15:20 Others began making t-shirts and buttons and other swag and over the years those who asked us to try doing it ourselves have consistently 01:15:44 said we have done a great job with this. 01:16:13 So all this shipping stuff grew out of this effort too. 01:16:18 and I don't think that has really changed, overall 01:16:37 just the people have seemed to change in Red Hat 01:16:51 at least those who are leading the Ambassadors now vs then 01:16:56 Moral to this point: we were empowered to do good work, we did, and we felt good doing it. 01:17:07 s/leading/involved with/ 01:17:14 inode0: agreed 01:17:16 carry on 01:17:23 Fast forward 5 years to today 01:17:29 My issue is being at an event and not having the swag because it was not provided 01:17:37 from what I have seen so far sounds like have gone through growing pains, and continue to do so, but seems like we are heading in the right direction 01:17:42 we aren't perfect :) 01:18:40 Legal has decided we can't keep operating the way we have been. This isn't because we have done anything wrong, but for legal reasons they need to actually *control* the process. 01:18:54 That is my characterization, not theirs. 01:18:56 That's BS 01:19:01 http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/advisory-board/2012-March/011523.html 01:19:05 read please ^^ 01:19:11 But I think it is a fair characterization. 01:19:26 agree 01:19:44 * nb doesn't really see a problem with the draft 01:19:52 given the clarifications that spot provided 01:20:08 they *do* have to have control over the trademark or everyone could call stuff fedora 01:20:16 it's not attacking us, its just protecting our name 01:20:22 So one thing everyone sort of needs to understand is that the old folks who felt so empowered 5 years ago now feel a bit of the opposite. 01:20:38 really, the guidelines just spell out pretty much how we already do stuff 01:21:04 And the old folks who feel they are losing control of what they built need to get over it because that is just the way it is going to be. 01:22:24 So from my perspective at this point we just need to work on some details, and spot and pam while not very talkative are very cooperative about accommodating our concerns. 01:22:26 trademark laws, what a nightmare 01:22:50 award3535, i agree :) 01:23:32 There was a lot of detail removed in the second draft of the guidelines that bothered many of us in the first draft and that demonstrates their willingness to work to make things be as easy as possible for us. 01:24:22 yeah 01:24:23 So at this point my concerns are pretty minor 01:24:35 But I still have some 01:24:48 okay, spill the beans 01:25:07 One concern I have is whether or not the Good Vendor/Bad Vendor list should be public. 01:25:51 Public makes it easiest for everyone, but I feel like it is both an endorsement of vendors and a bad and perhaps dangerous thing to flag them as bad in public. 01:26:34 So I would really prefer any such lists be internal to the project but not available on the wiki in plain sight. 01:26:47 Perhaps a person would need to be logged in to see that page then? 01:27:03 yes, that is what I prefer in this case 01:27:28 agreed, even if you left the bad ones off, they can get a little testy, and I agree with logging on to see the lists 01:27:42 as the process of getting approved designs has been described we will also need to login to do that 01:28:25 the other objection I still here from ambassadors is about the whitelist of approved types 01:28:30 I think a good/bad vendor list should be available for Ambassadors and others that have to log into there fas accounts 01:29:02 Tom has indicated that Red Hat may be willing to explicitly take responsibility for hte list 01:29:06 or just a select ambassadors/design and red hat 01:29:14 I'm accepting the representation that there isn't a better way to do this and I am confident spot will approve every new type we ask for. 01:29:40 yeah 01:29:51 sounds good\ 01:29:55 nb: if Red Hat maintains the lists then I probably won't get sued for damaging the business of some vendor but 01:30:21 yeah they make the list but ambassadors have access to said list 01:30:30 it still looks like we are endorsing businesses on the Good Vendor list when we haven't even used them! 01:30:56 why would we add them to the list when we haven't used them? 01:31:19 and we are smearing vendors as being bad when we have used them only once and we didn't like it - could easily have been our bad luck and they are normally fine vendors 01:31:30 nb: that is the process in the guidelines 01:31:35 could be Red Hat actually used them and that may be why they are on the list 01:31:49 I think the list should only include good and used, leave any undesireables off 01:31:50 if we want to use a new vendor we add them to the good vendor list and go ahead and use them 01:32:09 no, we are the ones adding them and moving them to the bad list 01:32:18 ok 01:33:06 anyway, we have little experience with any of these vendors and I don't want Fedora to appear to be either endorsing them or saying something negative about them to the public 01:33:14 that just doesn't feel right in my gut 01:33:42 Then see if we can make that list an ambassadors only list that others do not have access to 01:33:48 I am no lawyer, but it doesnt look right either 01:33:49 award3535: we need the bad list to prevent us from using them again in the future 01:34:03 inode0: I like the 'put it behind fas' idea you suggested 01:34:09 seems like a reasonable place 01:34:12 Sonar_Gal: yeah, I'm fine if it is just behind a fas login 01:34:42 login with Fas is good for me 01:34:52 Yes then it's not public to anyone without Login rights 01:35:35 it makes our lives a little harder, we'll need to login to check it and update it - I'd rather do that than the alternative I think 01:36:11 there may be some reason it needs to be public too, who knows 01:36:14 I agree, logging on doesnt really bother me either 01:36:30 +1 01:37:24 so back to the approved types list - anyone want to make a case one way of the other on that? 01:38:01 * kk4ewt 01:38:25 being an information assurance profession, making the lists public does open alot of issues, placing a list where its not publically visible is the best idea 01:39:01 +1 with vendor list in a trac instance 01:39:24 +0 01:39:36 I think the current plan is to add frisbees as an approved type we'll file a ticket in some trac and spot will add it 01:39:42 Fas login to access list 01:39:43 * nb doesn't see a problem as long as spot really does approve new stuff as soon as he says he will 01:39:46 unless you propose condoms 01:40:29 a condom is another safe bet 01:40:59 ok, so I think we are ok with approved types and approved designs? 01:41:15 +1 Better to be safe "than" sorry. 01:41:30 yes, the designs are good 01:41:35 We still design them and they approve them? 01:41:45 that is one option 01:42:08 we didn't always design them, I usually ask mizmo to design the ones I have used 01:42:39 ok 01:42:53 basically the only thing new here is that the group that approves logo usage for others will now do it for us as well 01:43:04 +1 01:43:25 if I am not mistaken, if we design them, there must be an approval process listed to protect the trademarks 01:43:31 I just think if they design them we should also have a say if we like them or not. 01:43:38 and they will also keep a repository of approved designs that we can reuse on approved types without doing the approval steps again 01:44:13 Sonar_Gal: they haven't ever forced anything on us 01:44:22 ok 01:44:32 it has been a very friendly and productive relationship 01:45:03 mizmo and other design team folks who have done this have worked with us to get a design that is correct and meets our goals 01:45:33 when I do logos and such for fedora and jboss projects I go through a number of proposal/mock ups with the involved parties until they are happy with my design 01:45:45 i'm up 01:46:20 my experience for fedora swag has been very friendly (even the images for the Virtual Banner) 01:46:57 Fudcon was alittle difficult because they wouldnt listen 01:47:14 So I will admit I am annoyed to be told I have to get their approval, but I did anyway so I'm just annoyed by being told I have to :) 01:48:01 I do have one more point of concern 01:48:35 Legal can't allow all contributors to get the "special" treatment we are getting 01:49:02 please specify 01:49:02 So some subset must be defined and they chose the Ambassador Group as that subset 01:49:30 and the ambassador group is the group that produces the most 01:49:39 Which is nice but is it the best way to form the subset I guess is the question 01:49:50 it does, almost all 01:50:13 but I gave the example that the case badges were not designed or produced by a member of that group 01:50:35 so can we find a way to not exclude people like him? 01:51:15 one possibility is forming a new fas group that we can easily add people to who want to work on swag 01:51:42 another possibility is we can leave it the ambassador group and have some way to fast track swag producers into that group 01:52:08 maybe there are other options, I don't know 01:53:12 +1 for your ideas and options 01:53:28 +1 agree 01:54:13 * inode0 sort of fears people going around the mentoring process by producing swag, but that isn't all bad either 01:55:18 ok, I want to touch on one more topic tonight so before I move on does anyone want to get anything more into the record regarding the trademark guidelines? 01:56:16 .famnaticket 32 01:56:17 inode0: #32 (SELF Brainstorming) – FAmNA general trac - https://fedorahosted.org/famna/ticket/32 01:57:13 We haven't scheduled this meeting yet but we really want to try to do some new fun things at SELF and if you have ideas please add them to that ticket or join us when we announce a brainstorming meeting 01:58:17 #topic Open Floor 01:58:57 There are some events coming up soon and we really need to do the budget business for them before they happen. Hint. Hint. 01:59:18 inode0: first has the V-banners been sent to ILF 01:59:30 * inode0 has no idea 01:59:37 neither do I 01:59:43 nb ping 01:59:44 really I have no idea about anything related to ILF 02:00:03 aside from it being in two weeks 02:00:26 is nb going to ILF or SELF 02:00:33 I don't know that either 02:00:53 I also have heard there is someone wanting to propose a FAD at SELF 02:00:53 no budget has been allocated for either event beyond the sponsorship for SELF 02:00:57 greetings everyone! 02:01:33 i missed it again, 02:01:35 chanchito: i will get you a shipping label for the event box tomorrow 02:01:54 nb is listed on the SELF page he is attending 02:02:03 i am in austin and wont be home to ship it until the 20th of april 02:02:15 that doesn't really follow from being listed award3535 :) 02:02:18 as you can see, working late is affecting my schedule 02:02:32 2 weeks in a row, i'm late for the meeting 02:02:51 this meeting is still in progress at least 02:02:55 i missed devopsday due to work 02:02:59 so sorry john 02:03:05 that is ok 02:03:19 oops 02:03:21 * nb was away 02:03:23 the new online lottery site is taking all my time lately 02:03:25 kk4ewt, i plan to go to SELF 02:03:38 mom is in the hospital now and with everyting going on i am not going to be able to make ILF 02:03:52 ok 02:04:36 well we don't even know if anyone is going to do ILF 02:04:38 * inode0 has a bad feeling about ILF 02:04:42 yeah 02:04:48 bpepple listed himself on wiki 02:04:50 is that the Indiana Linux Fest 02:04:53 and threethirty said he might 02:04:54 ILF 02:04:54 yes 02:04:55 chanchito, yes it is 02:04:59 ok 02:05:11 we have people in the area but it is 2 weeks away and nothing is planned 02:05:27 what about justin o'brien? 02:05:39 a.k.a "slack-ta-vist" 02:05:46 so lets contract brian and send the West Coast Banners and the central event box 02:05:52 he lives in indiana 02:06:05 we can name people in the area but the fact is they haven't stepped up 02:06:12 true 02:06:23 hoping we could apply some group pressure 02:06:31 has anyone heard from brian to say if he is going for sure? 02:06:33 bpepples lives about 3 hours away 02:06:37 he hasn't made an event page yet afaik 02:07:04 and it isn't the way we want to organize events to ignore them until the last minute and then recruit someone nearby to go do a half-baked presence 02:07:07 IMO 02:07:19 +1 02:07:19 another good point 02:07:30 how true, better no presence than a shoddy one 02:07:51 well i agree and disagree 02:08:05 #action inode0 will cheer up and be less grumpy next week 02:08:08 we were a big hit last year at this conference 02:09:02 get me a plane ticket and a room and drop ship the event box and west coast v-banners and i will go work the show 02:09:07 at the NELF, i have to admit, only our booth/table looked professional and coordinated, Debian was scanty, OpenSuse had a lack of materials, and BSD was scanty also 02:09:19 so I guess we're pretty good 02:09:33 * graphite6 totally bummed, was thinking of going to SELF but just realized she has a wedding in Dallas that weekend :( 02:09:48 is Dallas still there tonight? 02:10:03 lol 02:10:05 They are still having severe warnings 02:10:13 true, it may be gone by June 02:10:14 approx 793 for a plane ticket it looks like 02:10:16 watching all the tornado damage now 02:10:16 from roa to ind 02:10:18 yeah raining here in austin too 02:10:19 there were 18 wheelers flying through the air 02:10:29 that same storm is heading my way tomorrow 02:10:31 yikes 02:10:36 no way 02:10:39 yes 02:10:43 fingers crossed for everyone 02:10:51 at least two tornadoes 02:10:56 wow 02:11:12 ok lets finish up 5 am comes mighty early 02:11:19 * inode0 senses we are drifting and will close the meeting in a couple of minutes 02:11:22 roger 02:11:38 * inode0 makes that seconds 02:11:41 #endmeeting