16:00:22 <sesivany> #startmeeting FAmSCo 2014-09-09
16:00:23 <zodbot> Meeting started Tue Sep  9 16:00:22 2014 UTC.  The chair is sesivany. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:00:23 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
16:00:25 <sesivany> #meetingname famsco
16:00:25 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'famsco'
16:00:29 <sesivany> #topic Roll Call
16:00:33 <sesivany> .fas eischmann
16:00:34 <zodbot> sesivany: eischmann 'Jiri Eischmann' <eischmann@redhat.com>
16:00:57 <sesivany> masta, tuanta: ping
16:00:57 <tuanta> .fas tuanta
16:00:58 <zodbot> tuanta: tuanta 'Truong Anh Tuan' <tuanta@iwayvietnam.com>
16:01:06 <sesivany> cwickert: ping
16:01:19 <sesivany> lbazan: ping
16:01:23 <sesivany> robyduck: ping
16:01:33 <cwickert> sorry, I'm on the run
16:01:38 <cwickert> .fas cwickert
16:01:38 <zodbot> cwickert: cwickert 'Christoph Wickert' <christoph.wickert@gmail.com>
16:02:28 <sesivany> #chair tuanta cwickert
16:02:28 <zodbot> Current chairs: cwickert sesivany tuanta
16:03:06 <sesivany> ok, let's wait if others will show up.
16:05:16 <sesivany> I don't see any regrets for today's meeting, so theoretically we should all be here :)
16:06:59 <sesivany> cwickert, tuanta: is there anything you want to especially discuss today?
16:07:23 <cwickert> sesivany: not really
16:07:31 <tuanta> not really, sesivany
16:07:55 <cwickert> #info cwickert will discuss the deliverables with the workstation working group tomorrow
16:08:05 <cwickert> tuanta: can you do the same with the server WG?
16:08:28 <cwickert> I downloaded TC5 and looked into the sizes of combined ISOs
16:08:34 <sesivany> cwickert, tuanta: ok, I've been busy changing a job in the last week, so don't have much to add, but I brought up the media on the marketing list.
16:08:38 <sesivany> #topic F21 media
16:08:47 <cwickert> ok, lets discuss this a bit
16:08:59 <tuanta> ok
16:09:13 <cwickert> so it's only server and workstation
16:09:22 <cwickert> cloud will not be available as ISO
16:09:43 <cwickert> so the question becomes. do we want separate or combined ISOs?
16:09:44 <tuanta> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Server/Technical_Specification#Supported_Architectures_and_Install_Media
16:10:18 <cwickert> uh
16:10:28 <cwickert> that does not fly for the ambassadors I'm afraid
16:11:05 * sesivany is still not sure if we should produce Server DVDs...
16:11:09 <cwickert> tuanta: if they are targeting 4 GB, why is TC5 then only 2?
16:11:14 <robyduck> .fas robyduck
16:11:16 <zodbot> robyduck: robyduck 'Robert Mayr' <robyduck@gmail.com>
16:11:25 * lbazan here
16:11:25 <cwickert> sesivany: only if we could combine ISOs I think
16:11:31 <lbazan> .fas lbazan
16:11:32 <zodbot> lbazan: lbazan 'Luis Enrique Bazán De León' <bazanluis20@gmail.com>
16:11:46 <cwickert> #chair lbazan robyduck
16:11:46 <zodbot> Current chairs: cwickert lbazan robyduck sesivany tuanta
16:11:53 <tuanta> cwickert, it has not been completed yet
16:12:22 <sesivany> I also discussed another kind of media with gnokii today.
16:12:23 <robyduck> sorry guys, really hard for me to be in time for 16UTC
16:12:31 <sesivany> web keys, if you know it.
16:12:49 <sesivany> it may be a cheap alternative to DVDs since those are slowly dying.
16:13:39 <cwickert> web keys?
16:14:24 <robyduck> like these? http://my-key.co/webkeys/usb-web-keys
16:14:53 <sesivany> cwickert: it's a flyer that has an usb drive in it, but only with an URL, when you plug it into computer, it opens predefined URL which could be download url. We can put info about how to make a bootable usb on the flyer.
16:15:38 <sesivany> it's not in fact a media, just something to make user try it and download Fedora.
16:16:06 <sesivany> http://www.itreklama.cz/zbozi/wk002-dvojity-skladaci-papirovy-web-key
16:16:09 * cwickert is not sure he likes it
16:16:31 <cwickert> how much are they, compared to a DVD?
16:16:58 <tuanta> it is interesting, but I am not sure it fit to our purpose
16:17:01 * masta is here
16:17:03 * tuanta is listening
16:17:04 <sesivany> I'm not sure either, but a thing to consider, we will have to replace DVDs sooner or later and full-featured usb drives won't be achieveable any time soon.
16:17:08 <cwickert> #chair masta
16:17:08 <zodbot> Current chairs: cwickert lbazan masta robyduck sesivany tuanta
16:17:18 <masta> thank you cwickert
16:17:37 <cwickert> sesivany: I think we should just tell people to slim down their stuff ;)
16:17:42 <sesivany> cwickert: I've asked for quotes, we'll see. It should be much cheaper than normal usb drives because it has almost zero capacity.
16:18:24 <cwickert> If we can do with flyers and media for the same price, then I would prefer them
16:18:35 <tuanta> btw, we should make sure that it works fine on Linux :)
16:18:35 <cwickert> them = flyers + dvds
16:18:49 <robyduck> sesivany: the idea is nice, but people need an Internet connection to install Fedora.
16:19:12 <sesivany> cwickert: a simple flyer with download urls + qr code + instructions how to create a bootable usb drive could also be a good alternative.
16:19:15 <robyduck> so actually we don't have really good alternatives to DVDs
16:19:30 <cwickert> can we get back to actual media for now
16:19:35 * cwickert really is in a hurry
16:19:39 <lbazan> robyduck: +1
16:20:00 <cwickert> so, for alpha TC5, we could do a dual arch server + workstation DVD
16:20:07 <sesivany> robyduck: I don't think it's a problem for people in Europe and US. It is still a problem for APAC and LATAM though.
16:20:16 <cwickert> but this only works if the WGs don't change their sizes
16:20:20 <sesivany> cwickert: how much is worstation iso now?
16:20:48 <robyduck> 1,3GB
16:20:49 <cwickert> 1-2 - 1,3 GB I think
16:21:02 <tuanta> I think we should have separated media for Workstation and Server, they should not be merged, because they have got two separated sets of users
16:21:16 <cwickert> tuanta: +1
16:21:19 <cwickert> but
16:21:28 <cwickert> the multi dvds are just very practical
16:21:28 * robyduck is more and more convinced we should provide *only* workstation
16:21:40 <sesivany> we can even make mini DVD (8 cm), they can hold up to 1.44 GB. They would be much lighter for shipping.
16:21:52 <robyduck> sesivany: +1
16:21:56 <cwickert> sesivany: but that is not dual arch
16:22:07 <tuanta> sesivany, it would be nicer too
16:22:21 <lbazan> sesivany: +1
16:22:29 <sesivany> cwickert: you can also have dual layer ones with a total capacity of 2.66 GB.
16:22:40 <cwickert> sesivany: I doubt it is cheaper
16:22:47 <cwickert> then a regular DVD
16:22:53 <masta> I think we should only provide workstation
16:22:54 <cwickert> plus, we loose space for marketing
16:23:08 <cwickert> the space on the sleeves is actually valuable
16:23:11 <sesivany> cwickert: cheaper probably not, but if the price is about the same, it would really help with shipping, DVDs are very heavy.
16:23:27 <cwickert> sesivany: ok, please get quotes then
16:23:42 <cwickert> anyway, I think there is not much to discuss for us now
16:23:55 <cwickert> I did the test composes, but we first need to know what the WGs really want
16:24:11 <sesivany> cwickert: yeah, please get an opinion from the wwg.
16:24:18 <tuanta> in my mind, I will provide Server media for system engineers, IT students who want to try for servers and Workstation one for end-users, separately
16:24:20 <cwickert> I will discuss this with the workstation people tomorrow and I ask tuanta to do the same for the server
16:24:23 <tuanta> +1 sesivany cwickert
16:24:56 <sesivany> I'm for a separate workstation DVD, that's something we should produce for sure. Server DVDs? Not so convinced.
16:25:07 <cwickert> tuanta: relevant questions: are they fine with a dual arch media? are they supporting i686 at at all or only x86_64
16:25:39 <robyduck> sesivany: I have the same opinion, server and cloud are more specific and people know how to get them
16:25:40 <sesivany> #action cwickert and tuanta to discuss f21 media with workstation and server working groups
16:25:48 <tuanta> cwickert, Fedora Server will run on and provide install media for i686, x86_64, and armv7hl servers
16:26:03 <cwickert> sesivany: I don't think the server will be that popular, but if we have the big distinction of server vs. workstation, we should have media for both, to illustrate the new targets
16:26:49 * yn1v is here
16:26:53 <sesivany> and what about other flavors? Should we produce something like "Other flavors of Fedora" DVD with other desktops?
16:26:57 <tuanta> hi yn1v
16:26:58 <cwickert> tuanta: I know, I can read ;) they will provide ISOs, but that does not mean that they want us to distribute actual media. e.g. hardly anybody will need a armv7 dvd
16:27:22 <cwickert> sesivany: my idea was to have one desktop, eventually one server, and one "alternate" media
16:27:34 <tuanta> ok, I got your point, cwickert
16:27:36 <cwickert> the latter would be similar to the current multi-desktop dvd
16:27:44 <sesivany> cwickert: ok
16:28:14 <sesivany> cwickert: I asked for quotes for volumes of 1000, 2000, 3000, 4000, and 5000. Then we can calculate.
16:28:28 <cwickert> ok
16:29:18 <sesivany> last time we produced installation dvd in the quantity of 1000 the unit price was $.80 compared to $.35 in the quantity of 5000.
16:29:29 <yn1v> I don't know if this has been discussed, but the workstation will support 32bit?
16:29:43 <sesivany> yn1v: afaik it should
16:30:10 <robyduck> yes it will
16:30:27 <robyduck> but 64 bit is recommendet
16:31:03 <sesivany> ok, I think we've discussed everything we could today.
16:31:19 <sesivany> next topic?
16:31:33 <lbazan> ok
16:31:39 <sesivany> #topic New Mentor Process
16:31:51 <sesivany> I haven't seen any update here.
16:32:01 <sesivany> did we get any feedback from the mentors?
16:33:11 <sesivany> looks like not :)
16:33:17 <tuanta> actually, not much (almost nothing)
16:33:38 <tuanta> mentors may be an inactive group :)
16:34:35 <sesivany> that's why I think FAmSCo should make the decision.
16:35:02 <sesivany> maybe we can always announce it on the fama mailing list, give people a week to provide feedback and then vote.
16:35:21 <sesivany> it's better than having mentors vote and then desparately wait for their votes.
16:35:43 <tuanta> yes, I see
16:35:58 <lbazan> +1
16:36:24 <tuanta> we have weekly IRC meetings
16:36:58 <lbazan> tuanta: mentors?
16:37:07 <tuanta> FAmSCo
16:37:08 <sesivany> cwickert: what do you think about it? the process would be: nomination by an existing mentor, announced on the fama mailing list, mentors given a week to provide feedback, then voted and appointed by famsco?
16:37:22 * cwickert is busy, sorry
16:37:40 <lbazan> tuanta: ok
16:37:59 <tuanta> sesivany, I think it is more feasible process
16:38:08 <robyduck> sesivany: I'm ok with it
16:38:09 <tuanta> we may change that way
16:38:10 <lbazan> sesivany: too long for something so simple ..
16:38:36 <yn1v> it is no simple because people is not responding :-(
16:39:06 <sesivany> lbazan: we can of course remove the announcing and waiting, but I was trying to find a middle ground between my and cwickert's proposal.
16:39:16 <lbazan> robyduck: you send feedback to the mentor list and only you have two answers?
16:39:55 <robyduck> yes
16:39:59 <robyduck> probably 3
16:40:31 * robyduck looked, 3 votes
16:40:38 <sesivany> the thing is that the way I put it we are not dependent on activity of mentors, they may or may not provide feedback, the whole process can be 1 week long nevertheless.
16:40:42 <robyduck> one of them is you ;)
16:40:54 <robyduck> sesivany: agree
16:41:31 <tuanta> +1 sesivany. that's fine enough
16:41:35 <lbazan> sesivany: +1
16:41:41 <sesivany> so do we agree on this? I will prepare a formal process for the next meeting and we can vote about it and then implement it.
16:41:47 <lbazan> robyduck: :)
16:42:00 <lbazan> sesivany: +1
16:42:15 <yn1v> I find it a bit frustrating about the lack of response. Which does not mean that they do their work, means that we haven't establish a good communication or they are not motivated to vote in the issue
16:42:46 <sesivany> yn1v: I think the motivation is the problem here.
16:42:58 <yn1v> I agree with sesivany proposal
16:43:10 <sesivany> yn1v: other mentors just don't care enough if paul mellors becomes a mentor or not.
16:43:21 <robyduck> yn1v: we can't oblige them to vote, they will be asked, and FAmSCo will pick up concerns or opinions when appointing the new mentor, That's quite enough IMHO
16:43:41 <lbazan> sesivany: +1
16:43:45 <tuanta> +1 robyduck
16:43:49 <sesivany> don't forget that silence is often understood as agreement.
16:44:20 <yn1v> yes, silence may also be that they do not have any objection
16:44:25 <sesivany> #agreed FAmSCo agreed on the process "nomination by an existing mentor, announced on the fama mailing list, mentors given a week to provide feedback, then voted and appointed by famsco"
16:44:26 <lbazan> yn1v: +1
16:44:55 <sesivany> #action sesivany to prepare a formal process description to vote about and implement (for the next meeting)
16:44:56 <lbazan> sesivany: I think we have votes for paul ..?
16:45:31 <robyduck> lbazan: yes we have 3 *+1* from 3 mentors, we could vote indeed
16:45:50 <yn1v> Oh no! I am talking and I did not cast my vote.
16:46:00 <sesivany> robyduck: ok, let's vote about paul then?
16:46:09 * yn1v hides under his desk
16:46:44 <tuanta> yn1v, we have not got any formal vote recently
16:46:45 <yn1v> I support Mellors request
16:46:56 <tuanta> sesivany will prepare for it next meeting
16:47:08 <robyduck> cwickert had some concerns about reappointing him IIRC
16:47:23 <sesivany> robyduck: link?
16:47:28 <robyduck> ha...
16:47:37 <robyduck> in one of our lates meetings
16:47:40 <cwickert> sesivany: no link, I just mentioned it in the last meeting
16:47:42 <robyduck> or the ticket?
16:47:57 <sesivany> #link http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting-2/2014-09-02/famsco.2014-09-02-16.00.log.html
16:48:03 * sesivany is searching for it...
16:48:07 <cwickert> but I don't want to block the approval
16:48:08 <robyduck> did we change the topic?
16:48:23 <lbazan> robyduck: +1
16:48:42 * tuanta is not sure too. It should not be too easy for people just out and in anytime
16:48:43 <cwickert> you are chairs, just change the topic ;)
16:48:45 * masta has to run
16:48:46 <masta> bye guys
16:48:53 <robyduck> #topic Reappoint Paul Mellors as Ambassador mentor - #367
16:48:58 * cwickert needs to leave, you can appoint him if you like
16:49:08 <tuanta> if this case is rarely, it would be ok
16:49:41 <lbazan> votes? sesivany
16:49:48 <yn1v> I do not remember any request like this before
16:50:10 <sesivany> ok, let's vote.
16:50:13 <yn1v> I don't see at this point that we have to build a process and rules for a isolated case
16:50:13 <sesivany> +1
16:50:15 <lbazan> +1
16:50:22 <tuanta> but imagine, if we have to do this kind of vote more
16:50:22 <yn1v> +1
16:50:28 <tuanta> I am ok with this too
16:50:31 <tuanta> +1
16:50:41 <tuanta> just thinking for next cases, if any
16:50:43 <yn1v> if this become a recurrent issue, then we need process and rules
16:50:44 <robyduck> we have already 1 mentor in UK, but I think it's not bad having two +1
16:51:08 <robyduck> +1
16:51:12 <lbazan> agreed! sesivany
16:51:16 <sesivany> #agreed FAmSCo approves Paul Mellors as a mentor for EMEA
16:51:33 <sesivany> tuanta: can you please do the necessary administration?
16:51:44 <tuanta> ok, let me do
16:51:52 <robyduck> #action tuanta does the necessary administration for Paul Mallors
16:52:24 <lbazan> next topic?
16:52:26 <sesivany> anything else important to discuss? I think we don't have much time for another topic though.
16:52:27 <yn1v> robyduck, an UK mentor will not only help UK, his collaboration can go beyond that
16:52:42 <robyduck> yn1v: yes, that's true and very uesful
16:53:11 <lbazan> yn1v: +1
16:53:13 <tuanta> sesivany, nope at my side
16:53:21 <lbazan> sesivany: nope for me
16:53:43 <yn1v> I do not have any topic
16:53:44 <sesivany> ok, thank you for attending today and meet you next week!
16:53:58 <tuanta> thanks and see you next week
16:54:01 <yn1v> until next week
16:54:11 <lbazan> saludos! :-)
16:54:14 <robyduck> see you
16:54:18 <sesivany> #endmeeting