14:12:56 <potty> #startmeeting FAmSCo 2016-05-04
14:12:56 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed May  4 14:12:56 2016 UTC.  The chair is potty. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:12:56 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
14:12:56 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'famsco_2016-05-04'
14:13:09 <potty> #meetingname FAmSCo
14:13:09 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'famsco'
14:13:16 <potty> #topic Roll Call
14:13:20 <potty> .hello potty
14:13:22 <zodbot> potty: potty 'Abdel G. Martínez L.' <abdel.g.martinez.l@gmail.com>
14:13:38 <yosef7> xopa
14:14:07 <yosef7> ups
14:14:10 <yosef7> Error de canal
14:14:25 <potty> #info The reminder works perfectly
14:14:49 <potty> #info Gabriele, Sirko, Luis sent their regrets.
14:15:56 <potty> #info No ping today from Christoph, Tuanta and Giannisk
14:16:26 <potty> #info potty sent an email to the Fedora Design list but with no response from them.
14:16:37 <giannisk> .fas giannisk
14:16:37 <zodbot> giannisk: giannisk 'Giannis Konstantinidis' <giannis@konstantinidis.cc>
14:16:46 * giannisk waves at everyone.
14:17:02 <potty> hi giannisk :)
14:17:06 <potty> just me right now
14:17:30 <giannisk> potty: Only the two of us?
14:17:42 <potty> #info cwickert added the Lazy Consensus info on https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_Ambassadors_Steering_Committee#Governance
14:17:44 <potty> giannisk: yes
14:18:31 <potty> giannisk: shall we continue on the meeting? or just end it and continue by trac and mailing list?
14:19:00 * cwickert is sorry for beeing late
14:19:01 <potty> hi cwickert
14:19:04 <cwickert> being+
14:19:10 <cwickert> hi potty
14:19:10 <potty> it is ok
14:19:11 <potty> :)
14:19:16 <cwickert> .hello cwickert
14:19:17 <potty> 3 out of 7
14:19:17 <zodbot> cwickert: cwickert 'Christoph Wickert' <christoph.wickert@gmail.com>
14:19:19 <potty> still no quorum
14:19:58 <cwickert> afair mailga and gnokiI see annot make it
14:20:25 <cwickert> who else is here?
14:20:38 <cwickert> anything from tuanta?
14:20:39 <potty> here is giannisk potty and cwickert
14:20:48 <potty> #chair cwickert giannisk
14:20:48 <zodbot> Current chairs: cwickert giannisk potty
14:20:52 <cwickert> thanks
14:21:14 <cwickert> so, we have three topics on the agenda afaics
14:21:23 <potty> cwickert: i must go away for a while. I'm about to begin give a workshop
14:21:23 <potty> May you continue chairing the meeting?
14:21:31 <cwickert> 1. transition to FOSCo
14:21:31 <cwickert> 2. xregional travel
14:21:31 <cwickert> 3. reorganisation mentors
14:21:34 <cwickert> potty: ok
14:21:39 <potty> I would not be offline but not as active as i would like
14:21:42 <cwickert> giannisk: are you here?
14:22:00 <cwickert> potty, giannisk: I think we can only discus FOSCo anyway
14:22:13 <potty> yes
14:22:14 <cwickert> let's start with the easy ones
14:23:13 <cwickert> .famsco 394
14:23:13 <zodbot> https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/394
14:24:24 <cwickert> #info so far gnokii, tuanta, giannisk, cwickert and mailga have discussed in #394
14:24:38 <cwickert> nothing from potty and lbazan yet
14:24:46 <cwickert> and there does not seem to be a consensus
14:25:08 <cwickert> there are various propsals
14:25:46 * nb opinion is that it could be decided by the regions involved
14:25:51 <potty> cwickert: should be create several proposals (like 2 or 3, and then vote)
14:26:01 <cwickert> gnokii suggested splitting costs 50:50. each region should reserve USD 1k for interregional sponsoring
14:26:10 <nb> i.e. if NA requests that cwickert come to an event in NA, than EMEA and NA could discuss who pays for it
14:26:30 <cwickert> nb: right, that's basically what I suggested, discuss things case by case
14:27:21 <cwickert> nb: but the problem is not so much about EMEA or NA but more about LATAM and APAC. Especially in APAC there seems to be an 'us vs. them' attitude
14:27:27 <nb> cwickert, oh
14:27:40 <cwickert> one the one hand I can understand it
14:27:55 <potty> cwickert: my thoughts are to have a interregional budget and if the contributor from region X goes to region Y because of he/she was invited then the expense goes to region Y... if he/she only wants to go to region Y to a event (no invitation from any region Y contributor) the expense goes to region X...
14:28:21 <cwickert> potty: I will add this to the wiki
14:28:22 * nb is opposed to centralizing more of our budget
14:28:29 <cwickert> nb: ++
14:28:49 <nb> for example, I don't see the cross-regional travel happening for NA and EMEA
14:29:03 <nb> if LATAM and APAC want to set aside money for it, good for them
14:29:42 <cwickert> nb: it's mostly about 'developed' vs. emerging communities, say kital travels from EMEA to India or dglimore from NA to the LATAM FUDCon
14:29:53 <nb> yeah
14:30:03 <nb> then APAC or LATAM would pay, I would think
14:30:07 <nb> since it is traveling for them
14:30:24 * nb thought that is how it always has been
14:30:25 <cwickert> this is what we usually do
14:30:29 <cwickert> right
14:30:44 <cwickert> but it seems people in APAC are unhappy about this
14:30:46 <giannisk> cwickert: yes, back
14:30:51 <cwickert> giannisk: welcome!
14:31:03 <cwickert> frankly speaking, I don't really see a problem here
14:31:05 <nb> cwickert, well, people in NA and EMEA will be unhappy if they have to pay for it
14:31:10 <nb> cwickert, i don't see a problem here either
14:31:26 <cwickert> I mean, there is only a handful of vocal people in APAC
14:31:38 <cwickert> who are complaining they have to pay for somebody else
14:31:55 <cwickert> whether or not this complaint is justified is one question
14:32:20 <cwickert> but given the fact that APAC underspends massively every year, I don't understand why they are so picky
14:32:28 <nb> +1
14:32:45 <cwickert> and by massively I mean they spend half of the money they request, if not less
14:32:49 <nb> yeah
14:33:18 <cwickert> anyway, let's collect proposals
14:33:43 <nb> #proposal: Generally the region people travel to will pay.  Exceptions can be discussed case-by-case by the regions involved
14:34:09 <cwickert> let's phrase this a bit differently
14:34:11 <cwickert> #undo
14:34:11 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: INFO by cwickert at 14:24:24 : so far gnokii, tuanta, giannisk, cwickert and mailga have discussed in #394
14:34:19 <cwickert> dammit
14:34:32 <cwickert> nb: you cannot make proposals :)
14:34:36 <nb> oh ok
14:34:40 <cwickert> chair nb
14:34:44 <cwickert> #chair nb
14:34:44 <zodbot> Current chairs: cwickert giannisk nb potty
14:34:47 <cwickert> now you can
14:35:16 * giannisk is having another short meeting in the meantime, will try to follow-up
14:35:59 <cwickert> giannisk: I'll add everything to the wiki, don't worry
14:36:21 <cwickert> seems there is no #proposal command in meetbot, anyway
14:36:39 <nb> oh ok
14:38:48 * decause reads scrollback
14:38:52 <decause> .hello decause
14:38:53 <zodbot> decause: decause 'Remy DeCausemaker' <decause@redhat.com>
14:39:11 <cwickert> nb: how about: "Rule of thumb: Unless people are invited to attend an event in another region, their region pays. If they are invited, the inviting region pays. Exceptions can be discussed case-by-case."
14:39:14 <cwickert> or
14:39:25 <cwickert> "Discuss everything case-by-case"
14:39:26 <cwickert> or
14:39:33 <cwickert> "share costs 50:50"
14:39:44 <cwickert> not sure how this is meant to work in practice though
14:39:59 <cwickert> we need to ask gnokii to clarify his propsal
14:40:08 <nb> cwickert, I kind of like "discuss everything case-by-case"
14:40:29 <nb> otherwise i think we might run into a discussion about "what does invited mean"
14:40:41 <nb> although, i like your proposal
14:40:48 <nb> it's pretty much what I was thinking
14:40:58 <nb> about if the region they are traveling to asks them to come, then that region pays
14:41:07 <cwickert> nb: well, it really means invited. It's not that I submit a talk because I want to give it but somebody explicitly asked me to attend
14:41:25 <decause> the #idea command should work
14:41:42 <cwickert> thanks decause
14:41:48 <nb> cwickert, true
14:42:11 * nb likes Rule of thumb: Unless people are invited to attend an event in another region, their region pays. If they are invited, the inviting region pays. Exceptions can be discussed case-by-case.
14:42:20 <cwickert> look at https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/394#comment:5 : It seems some people in APAC are really willing to pay
14:42:35 <cwickert> so there only seems a small but vocal minority that has a problem
14:43:38 <cwickert> #idea Rule of thumb: Unless people are invited to attend an event in another region, their region pays. If they are invited, the inviting region pays. Exceptions can be discussed case-by-case.
14:44:17 <cwickert> #idea handle all requests case-by-case. Means we don't make a decision at all
14:44:28 <nb> cwickert, i don't think it matters who actually pays for it.  i.e. 1 credit card holder could pay and then it can just be split internally
14:44:32 <cwickert> #idea Split costs 50:50. Need to ask gnokii for more details on this
14:44:41 <nb> afaik there is no difference between regions for red hat finance
14:44:56 <tuanta> sorry, I am late :(
14:45:06 * tuanta is too busy with daily work
14:45:16 <tuanta> .fas tuanta
14:45:16 <zodbot> tuanta: tuanta 'Truong Anh Tuan' <tuanta@iwayvietnam.com>
14:45:18 <cwickert> decause: how about splitting costs among regions? I'm afraid this makes things harder to track for you and Red Hat cinance
14:45:21 <cwickert> welcome tuanta
14:45:24 <cwickert> #chair tuanta
14:45:24 <zodbot> Current chairs: cwickert giannisk nb potty tuanta
14:45:34 <tuanta> thanks cwickert
14:45:49 <nb> cwickert, it may make it a little harder for decause but i think it makes no difference to finance
14:45:51 <decause> cwickert: one receipt, one reimbursement is kinda how it works
14:45:57 <decause> unless you get multiple receipts
14:46:04 <nb> i know we have split between flock/fudcon and regional before
14:46:08 <decause> (one region covers hotel, the other covers travel)
14:46:15 <nb> decause, oh, so we can't just split it 50/50?
14:46:16 <decause> maybe something like that?
14:46:31 <cwickert> decause: right, that's why I think splitting does not work. We could still do something like "Region X pays airfare, Region Y the hotel"
14:46:35 <decause> nb: I am *very* new to the reimbursements side of things
14:46:45 <decause> remember, this was not a decause thing
14:47:11 <cwickert> decause: FWIW, it doesn't work. It's one receipt, one reimbursement, one transaction, one ticket, whatever
14:47:14 <decause> going off of what I know based on reimbursement policy, receipts are king
14:47:20 <nb> decause, AFAIK it's all the same to Red Hat, it's just how we track it in Fedora.  In the past at least, we've split between Flock/Fudcon/FAD and regional
14:47:28 <nb> decause, but something could have changed
14:47:39 <nb> decause, because it was all one reimbursement in the eyes of Red Hat
14:47:44 <nb> just how we allocate it in Fedora side of it
14:47:50 <decause> I'm not as concerned about reckoning it for budget reporting, I'm more concerned about amabassadors getting paid
14:47:57 <cwickert> nb: let's leave out premiere events, they have a global budget anyway
14:48:24 <nb> decause, yeah.  My thought was that it could be reimbursed all together (if that was the decision), and then we can budget-report it how we want, amongst regions
14:48:33 <decause> nb: but those expenses were still tracked with receipts, which we submit, and are approved
14:48:38 <nb> oh ok
14:49:17 <decause> if you wanna mix/match receipts, that is up to you, but getting a "50/50" split will require creative *purchasing* not creative reporting
14:49:26 <tuanta> how about asking one of related regions to give reports, the other (reimbursed one) gives receipts?
14:49:30 <cwickert> decause: +1
14:49:46 <cwickert> tuanta: that doesn't fly I'm afraid
14:50:02 <nb> decause, but we could make it be 1 pays for hotel, 1 pays for travel, or something like that, right?
14:50:15 <tuanta> ok, I will read the logs for more information
14:50:19 <decause> tuanta: receipts are king. we cannot reimburse without a receipt, and the reports are also a "fedora" requirement for reimbursement
14:50:22 <cwickert> nb: yeah, that's what we have done in the past and it worked
14:51:04 <tuanta> +1 nb cwickert
14:51:12 <cwickert> ok, we are roughly 30 minutes into this
14:51:15 <tuanta> we should look for a simple way
14:51:21 <cwickert> I suggest we continue on the wiki
14:51:41 <cwickert> I will add the three ideas to the wiki and ask gnokii to clarify his
14:51:49 <cwickert> and then we can go from there
14:51:51 <cwickert> ok?
14:53:32 <tuanta> worksforme cwickert
14:53:52 <decause> nb: yes, but then we'd need reports from people getting reimbursed too
14:54:10 <nb> don't we always need reports?
14:54:19 <cwickert> decause: I was under the impression we always need to do reports to get reimbursed
14:55:03 <tuanta> +1 cwickert
14:56:14 <cwickert> ok then
14:57:05 <decause> cwickert: yes, still the policy
14:57:09 <cwickert> #action cwickert to add the ideas for #394 to the wiki. each proposal should have one owner who can further elaborate it.
14:57:16 <cwickert> #undo
14:57:16 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: ACTION by cwickert at 14:57:09 : cwickert to add the ideas for #394 to the wiki. each proposal should have one owner who can further elaborate it.
14:57:23 <cwickert> #action cwickert to add the ideas for #394 to the ticket. each proposal should have one owner who can further elaborate it.
14:58:03 <cwickert> ok, next topic
14:58:17 <cwickert> #topic Revoking mentor status
14:58:22 <cwickert> .famsco 359
14:58:22 <zodbot> https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/359
14:58:58 <cwickert> I've said it before and I will say it again: I'm strongly against revoking status. We've had this discussion for years, not only with mentors but also with packagers or ambassadors
14:59:30 <tuanta> +1 cwickert. me too (for years too)
14:59:36 <cwickert> and every time the outcome was that we don't revoke a status but use technical means to mark people as inactive
14:59:58 <cwickert> I think this is enough also for the mentors.
15:01:24 <cwickert> #info: The idea of revoking status has been discussed in Fedora for years, not only for mentors, but also for ambassadors or packagers. Every time the outcome was that we don't revoke a status people once earned.
15:02:24 <cwickert> #info We can ask people to give up their status, but IHMO we should not take it from them. We have technical means of marking contributors as inactive, this should fix the problem with mentors being unavailable.
15:03:23 <cwickert> #info Whoever disagrees and wants us to revoke the mentor status, please update ticket #394, make a clearly defined proposal and give a rationale.
15:03:58 <cwickert> tuanta, potty, mailga, nb, decause: any objections to what I just wrote?
15:04:09 <cwickert> giannisk: ^
15:04:27 <nb> just a minute, let me read, i was away
15:04:54 <nb> cwickert, +1
15:05:15 * cwickert waits three minutes for more feedback, brb
15:05:22 <nb> FWIW, that is what other projects do
15:05:28 * nb is inactive with Mozilla for years
15:05:29 <tuanta> +1. cwickert. the good thing here is no actual limit for retaining that status; once available mentors are not enough in a region, current mentors can nominate more ones
15:05:36 <nb> but I still have commit access to mozilla.org website
15:05:41 <nb> because i earned it at one time
15:05:46 * giannisk is going through the logs.
15:05:58 <nb> cwickert, but i think we need to be more willing to appoint new mentors
15:06:15 <giannisk> cwickert: +1 to revoke status from mentors that are -clearly- not interested in mentoring new ambassadors anymore
15:06:15 <nb> did giannisk ever get approved?
15:06:26 <nb> giannisk, as in, they say it is ok to remove them?
15:06:35 <giannisk> nb: nope :) my nomination has been on hold for about 9 months...
15:07:15 * nb thinks the process for new mentor should be more like the process for packager sponsor.  wait 1 week, if there are at least 3 +1's then it passes, if there are any -1's then FESCo (FAmSCo in ambassadors' case) votes
15:07:39 <nb> giannisk, i wish you would get approved.  i think you would make good mentor
15:08:06 <giannisk> nb: thanks
15:08:07 <nb> My opinion is that the number of existing mentors should not matter.  It should be solely "would this person make a good mentor"
15:09:33 <tuanta> sponsoring a new ambassador mentor should not be the same as packager. You know, the number of ambassadors is much less than the number of packagers
15:10:05 <cwickert> giannisk: actually, I am against revoking the status. we can only ask them to give it up, but not take it. I know we disagree on this, that's why I suggest you go ahead and make a proposal in the ticket and then we can go from there
15:10:41 <cwickert> giannisk: and even though we disagree on this particular question, I'm sure you will make a good mentor
15:10:47 <nb> tuanta, yes, that is true.  but why couldn't the same process work?
15:10:52 <cwickert> that's why we should get you approved ASAP
15:11:08 <cwickert> nb: +1, it's not about numbers
15:11:53 <cwickert> nb: +1, yes, the mentor process should be just like packager sponsors
15:12:40 <nb> it should just be "would this person be a good mentor" not caring about if there is a "need" for more mentors
15:12:40 <cwickert> #action giannisk to add his ideas to #359
15:12:45 <nb> it doesn't hurt to have extra
15:13:24 <cwickert> ok, I think we all agree except giannisk, who seems distracted. I suggest to discuss this in the ticket and move on with the meeting
15:13:38 <cwickert> #topic Nominating Giannis Konstantinidis for a mentor
15:13:46 <cwickert> .famsco 379
15:13:46 <zodbot> https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/379
15:13:56 <nb> how many is quorum of FAmSCo? 4?
15:14:09 <nb> if potty was here, we'd have enough to aprove him I believe?
15:14:51 <cwickert> nb: we have lazy consensus in FAmSCo now, so we should just be able to move on
15:15:05 <nb> oh
15:15:16 <cwickert> nb: at this point it's actually just like the packager sponsors
15:15:31 <linuxmodder> pb can too it seems :)
15:15:38 <cwickert> if nobody speaks up, giannisk will be a mentor in one week from now.
15:15:40 <linuxmodder> wrong window sorry
15:15:46 <cwickert> np linuxmodder
15:15:55 <tuanta> I think once giannisk has been nominated by existing mentors, he just needs a confirmation from FAmSCo, not a kind of approval
15:16:07 <tuanta> that's the current process
15:16:24 <cwickert> tuanta is right
15:16:35 <cwickert> therefor...
15:17:52 <cwickert> #idea: Call for a vote in #379. voting period is one week, decision is made by lazy consensus. The only relevant question for the vote is if giannisk will be a good mentor. All other questions such as restructuring the mentors role should be discussed separately.
15:18:11 <cwickert> who is +1 for this proposal?
15:18:11 <tuanta> +1 cwickert
15:18:45 <nb> +1
15:19:42 <cwickert> giannisk: I know you want to rethink the mentors. Please consider reopening #366 instead, but I really want to close your ticket now and have you as mentor :)
15:21:47 <potty> Hi
15:21:51 <potty> +1
15:26:49 <cwickert> sorry, got distracted
15:26:58 <cwickert> ok, lets move on
15:27:08 <cwickert> we have one last ticket on the agenda
15:27:17 <cwickert> but I think it takes too long to discuss now
15:27:33 <cwickert> #topic Proposal: consider tranforming FAmSCo into "FOSCo" — Fedora Outreach Steering Committee
15:27:37 <cwickert> .famsco 373
15:27:37 <zodbot> https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/373
15:28:24 <cwickert> #info giannisk brought this up on the mailing list and the council asked me for a status report, too. I am supposed to give a presentation on this on 3 weeks.
15:29:38 <cwickert> #info In order to get other groups to buy in on the idea of FOSCo, we need to come up with a detailed proposal.
15:30:43 <cwickert> #action all FAmSCo members: Please make a proposal in ticket #373. Your proposal should include 1) how is FOSCo composed (number of seats, from which groups etc)? and 2) what are FOSCos duties and rights
15:32:05 <cwickert> ok, that's all for me
15:32:19 <cwickert> we are running out of time, so I'll close this meeting in 3 minutes
15:33:18 <tuanta> as also one of previous FAmSCo members, I would like to tell that previous FAmSCo have had some ideas about the new FOSCo
15:33:45 <tuanta> I will re-collect them and link to the new ticket
15:34:59 <tuanta> that's all from me
15:37:27 <tuanta> I am also leaving now. a lot of work tomorrow morning
15:38:00 <tuanta> ping cwickert
15:38:25 <cwickert> pong tuanta
15:38:35 * potty read everything
15:38:49 <cwickert> potty: I will update the tickets and send out the minutes
15:39:13 <potty> Thanks cwickert
15:39:17 <potty> cwickert++
15:40:27 <cwickert> #endmeeting