17:00:11 <stickster> #startmeeting
17:00:11 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Jan  7 17:00:11 2010 UTC.  The chair is stickster. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
17:00:11 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
17:00:18 <stickster> #topic Roll call
17:00:28 * stickster 
17:00:43 * ctyler here
17:00:53 <dgilmore> /////
17:01:21 * dgilmore is here
17:01:24 * mmcgrath is here
17:01:24 * spot is here
17:01:30 * mdomsch is here
17:01:38 * walters here
17:01:40 * jwb is here
17:02:00 * stickster notes poelcat is absent for jury duty
17:02:16 <stickster> I see notting and glezos too
17:02:52 * glezos is here
17:03:14 <stickster> #info Present: ctyler stickster mdomsch dgilmore mmcgrath spot walters jwb notting glezos
17:03:52 <stickster> #info Regrets: poelcat
17:04:10 <stickster> caillon may be along shortly
17:04:17 <stickster> #topic Welcome new Board members
17:04:37 <stickster> OK, there are just a couple minor items to cover before Q&A
17:04:53 <stickster> First one is to welcome our new members, Chris Tyler (returning) and Colin Walters
17:05:19 <stickster> ctyler: walters: Did you each want to take a minute to talk about what you hope to accomplish on the Board during the next ~year?
17:05:21 <walters> thanks, glad to be here!
17:05:34 <mdomsch> hear hear!  Thanks for the time you're both committing to Fedora for the next year.
17:06:02 <dgilmore> welcome walters
17:06:12 <mmcgrath> welcome
17:06:27 <glezos> walters: welcome, good to have you on board!
17:06:45 <mmcgrath> ctyler: welcome back :)
17:06:58 <ctyler> howdy everyone, new and old, glad to be back
17:07:16 <walters> Sure; just for reference, my platform might be informative (https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board/Elections/Nominations), but basically, I have two main goals: Reduce intrapersonal conflict inside the project, and focus more on our end consumables (desktop and server images) than packaging
17:08:02 <stickster> #info Present: caillon
17:08:30 <ctyler> I hear you're still on the same discussion as when I left regarding target audiences :-D
17:08:46 <stickster> I'm looking forward to both these folks bringing a constructive spirit and actively getting involved in the important work ahead for Fedora
17:08:52 <mmcgrath> ctyler: that's not so much a discussion as a whole we can't climb out of :)
17:08:58 <ctyler> My goals include encouraging the development of smoother and deeper on-ramps
17:09:19 <ctyler> Moving the edge to the middle
17:09:33 <stickster> ctyler: There will be many opportunities to work on that this year, I project :-)
17:09:40 <stickster> Thanks, ctyler and walters
17:10:05 <stickster> OK, I'd like to quickly move on if possible to an update on a pending community domain matter
17:10:31 <stickster> Shall we?
17:10:56 * stickster sees no dissent, so...
17:11:03 <stickster> #topic fedoraturkiye.org
17:11:27 <stickster> Baransel, one of our contributors in Turkey, has been working on mockups for a community site, and sent details on what the site would contain to the FAB list.
17:12:16 <stickster> He just sent me a copy of his most recent mockup (I can forward that to FAB) and it appears to have a couple minor tweaks that are needed, updating a couple of button images.
17:13:25 <stickster> Since he has provided the necessary information about what functions/forums the site would include, which generally are in line with other community sites, I'd like to do the following:
17:13:33 <stickster> 1. Work with Baransel to fix the minor issues left
17:14:03 <stickster> 2. When those are complete, have the Board approve issuing a TLA.
17:14:09 <stickster> +/-1?
17:14:11 <spot> +1
17:14:14 <mdomsch> +1
17:14:18 <mmcgrath> +1
17:14:28 <dgilmore> +1
17:14:29 <jwb> fine with me
17:14:32 <glezos> +1
17:15:00 <walters> I don't have a lot of background on what the issues were, but this sounds fine generally
17:15:01 <ctyler> +1
17:15:37 <stickster> walters: Understand, thanks for commenting on that. I'll be happy to fill you in, this URL helps somewhat: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Local_community_domains
17:15:51 <walters> perfect, thanks
17:16:10 <notting> +1
17:16:45 <stickster> #agreed stickster will work with baransel to resolve remaining issues on mockup, and then the Board will approve the trademark license agreement.
17:16:59 <stickster> OK, the wiki is back which means I have one other short business item we can resolve
17:17:03 <stickster> Move on?
17:17:25 <mdomsch> yep
17:18:02 <stickster> #topic Appropriate material for Planet
17:18:30 <stickster> First, let me preface this by saying I believe we covered this in a phone call but I wanted to call out the information on the Planet wiki page
17:18:32 <stickster> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Planet#Appropriate_Material
17:19:18 <stickster> I've added a note about correspondence -- if there are problems, they can go to the webmaster@ address
17:19:38 <stickster> Since it would be a web content issue at that point, as opposed to a problem with the infrastructure itself.
17:20:13 <stickster> The main change that happened on this page back before the holiday was to issue a little guidance to our community on what sorts of material are not appropriate for our planet feed in general
17:20:45 <stickster> So this last change simply includes a way for people to report problems via IRC or email.
17:21:01 <mmcgrath> Did whoever objected to the last bad material on planet actually contact the poster or did they go straight to us?
17:21:40 <stickster> mmcgrath: In this particular case, they came to a couple Board members during the FUDCon event in Toronto
17:22:01 <spot> mmcgrath: there were several complaining comments on the offending post as well
17:22:14 <stickster> As it turned out, though, contacting the poster (which I did directly) ended up being educational -- the feed to the planet is a feed itself, which might not have been obvious
17:22:21 <mmcgrath> Did the poster refuse to remove it after thsoe comments got on there?
17:22:31 <mmcgrath> yeah
17:22:54 <spot> mmcgrath: i think they actually altered the post to make it more offensive...
17:22:55 <stickster> mmcgrath: No -- we don't know whether the administrator of that feed saw the comments before responding to the email I sent him.
17:23:15 <ctyler> iirc the intermediate feed admin pulled the feed from his list
17:23:20 <stickster> ctyler: That's correct
17:23:28 <stickster> The particular case probably is irrelevant at this point.
17:24:01 <stickster> We've now clearly established some examples of what's not appropriate which the community can use in the future.
17:24:10 <mdomsch> I presume webmaster@ is being monitored regularly?
17:24:10 <stickster> and how they can report problems.
17:24:23 <stickster> mdomsch: Yes, it feeds to the fedora-websites-list, and I'm on that list
17:24:36 <mdomsch> ok
17:25:10 <walters> (do we want to allow meta-feeds in general?)
17:25:43 <dgilmore> walters: i think its ok
17:25:45 <stickster> walters: I'm not opposed to them as long as the administrators of those feeds understand the limitations we've set
17:25:54 <glezos> walters: I don't see a probem with that.
17:25:56 <dgilmore> in this instance it was fedora mexio feed
17:26:17 <walters> ok
17:26:19 <mdomsch> so content generally ok in that feed; just a few problematic posts
17:26:26 <stickster> It was just one.
17:26:53 <mmcgrath> mdomsch: yeah, AFAIK we've only had like 4 or so questionable posts since I joined fedora, it's pretty rare
17:26:59 <stickster> Right.
17:27:09 <mdomsch> fair enough - mistakes happen; they get corrected and/or removed until correction is in place.  I'm fine with that.
17:27:13 <stickster> So if there aren't any objections to what's set up on that wiki, we can move on.
17:27:24 <ctyler> I wonder if that Wiki page should state that feeds that contain "inappropriate material" may be removed from the planet feeds.
17:27:25 <glezos> Even so, a planet, being an aggregation of many people, cultures and ways of expressing thoughts, it's totally reasonable that some slightly not 100% cool posts might be posted.
17:27:25 <stickster> s/wiki/wiki page/
17:27:50 <ctyler> That's the implication, we should probably state it.
17:28:06 <stickster> ctyler: You're right. I thought that statement was on the page explicitly but it's not.
17:28:28 <stickster> #action stickster Add statement to https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Planet#Appropriate_Material stating that feeds may be removed for inappropriate material
17:29:01 <ctyler> Then it logically follows that if a planet feed contains IM then the whole planet feed may be dropped.
17:29:42 <mmcgrath> :( this is becoming much ado about an incredibly rare issue
17:29:45 * stickster does not want to revisit the topic of what is inappropriate material here, which was discussed previously in a Board meeting.
17:29:49 <stickster> mmcgrath: +1.
17:29:55 <stickster> Let's move on.
17:30:11 <glezos> mmcgrath: +1
17:30:24 <ctyler> agreed.
17:30:34 <stickster> Which would bring us to Q&A
17:30:59 <stickster> EvilBob has a question about FUDCon
17:31:14 <stickster> #topic Q&A
17:31:20 <EvilBob> What are the plans for a summer FUDcon and
17:31:37 <EvilBob> Did I miss my turn?
17:31:46 <stickster> :-)
17:31:47 <mmcgrath> EvilBob: nope,
17:31:52 <dgilmore> EvilBob: its your tuen  now
17:31:54 <mmcgrath> but you did just have a "FUDCon and"
17:32:03 <dgilmore> turn even
17:32:14 <stickster> EvilBob: Did you mean, "did I miss my turn to have FUDCon in my hometown?"
17:32:18 <EvilBob> Will there be a summer FUDcon in NA this year? What plans are being made at this time no matter where it might be.
17:32:23 <stickster> Ah, OK
17:32:27 <EvilBob> looking for ways the community should or can help out I guess
17:32:38 <mmcgrath> I'm not even sure who plans that, stickster is that you or the community team or a bit of both?
17:32:50 * caillon bets boston
17:33:02 <jwb> that's where the RH Summit is this time, right?
17:33:09 * dgilmore was uner the understanding that there is only going to be one UDCon a year
17:33:10 <jwb> if so, i thought we avoid that
17:33:10 <caillon> jwb, for the next 3 or so years, yes
17:33:23 <jwb> caillon, i thought we wanted to avoid piggy backing there
17:33:25 <stickster> mmcgrath: FUDCon events are planned jointly between me, people who are interested in helping on the fudcon-planning list, and the Community Architecture team which foots the majority of the bill.
17:33:32 <dgilmore> FUDCon
17:33:48 <dgilmore> sorry my internet connection sucks today.  there is a snow day
17:33:51 <stickster> There is one major FUDCon event per geographic region per year.
17:34:15 <caillon> jwb, iirc we want to avoid joint conferences.  but we could have them before/after
17:34:23 <stickster> That is all the Community Architecture budget can support.
17:34:34 <EvilBob> stickster: So one should start working on a proposal for 2010 in NA?
17:34:46 <caillon> make it somewhere warmer please
17:34:53 <spot> caillon: +1 to that
17:34:57 <spot> i hear miami is nice.
17:35:16 <caillon> spot, in that vice city kinda way...  :-)
17:35:18 <stickster> The events are set up with a maximum of one FUDCon somewhere per Red Hat fiscal quarter. The North American event falls in Q4 (December-February) each year.
17:35:24 <EvilBob> Well anywhere in the North American summer is nice or "too dang hot"
17:35:36 <stickster> So the next NA FUDCon will be next Q4.
17:35:39 <notting> mmm, fudcon overtown.
17:35:53 <stickster> We are trying to plan for a warmer FUDCon this time.
17:36:04 <dgilmore> spot: i think pheonix sounds good
17:36:08 <EvilBob> stickster: any chance of that changing to a rotation?
17:36:31 <glezos> stickster: greece?
17:36:33 <stickster> We've said that before, of course -- there is a major factor in that bringing many contributors to an area far away is a significant expense and lowers the amount of money we have to subsidize contributors.
17:36:59 * ctyler notes that the Bahamas are in NA
17:37:05 <walters> heh
17:37:08 <stickster> glezos: I think we're talking about the next North American FUDCon, but certainly I have no objections to a EMEA FUDCon in Greece :-)
17:37:23 <stickster> EvilBob: As far as rotation, I think we want to keep our options open
17:37:46 <stickster> Toronto was a great success in terms of attendance, material, and so on
17:37:55 <EvilBob> stickster: I know for myself and many others December is tough one budget wise
17:38:02 <dgilmore> i liked toronto
17:38:12 <stickster> And it ended up being no more expensive than Boston because of much of the logistics work that ctyler did as part of the FUDCon planning group
17:38:26 <walters> being bus-able from boston worked out well i think
17:38:26 <stickster> EvilBob: I certainly understand and agree :-)
17:38:50 * spot notes that Debian lets various cities bid on the location
17:39:03 <stickster> spot: I was just getting to that...
17:39:26 <walters> spot: hm, how does that work?  is it the city government?  or universities/businesses on behalf of the cities?
17:39:36 <stickster> We have an open planning process for FUDCon using the fudcon-planning list, which we debuted with the Toronto event
17:40:07 <walters> ironically the last DebConf i attended was also in Toronto
17:40:16 <spot> walters: with the caveat that this was explained to me over beer at an event, my understanding is that the community members in the various cities bid
17:40:44 <spot> very similar to how WorldCon works if there are any SFF folks.
17:40:50 <stickster> So it would totally make sense to have NA Fedora contributors let us know if they can provide a free venue with good Internet support, and then we weigh the other costs (travel, lodging, etc.) with that information to establish a venue.
17:41:10 <stickster> I would like to encourage everyone here interested in FUDCon planning to join the list: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/fudcon-planning
17:41:42 <stickster> #info FUDCon planning process is open and the planning group's open list is found at https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/fudcon-planning
17:41:51 <mdomsch> bus-able is one challenge I have in suggesting Austin for location
17:42:06 <mdomsch> it's not bus-able from anywhere with large numbers of contributors
17:42:44 <stickster> mdomsch: Yes, certainly the bus would be a more difficult journey. But with advance notice we can buy cheaper airline tickets, and spread the cost of the event over two or more fiscal quarters.
17:42:55 <stickster> So it's not an immediate no-go
17:43:06 <mdomsch> interesting...
17:43:08 <notting> mdomsch: is austin transit-able once you get there?
17:43:17 <mdomsch> notting, sure - with lots of cars...
17:43:27 <notting> heh
17:43:38 <mdomsch> public transit isn't viable
17:43:51 * stickster would like to move this discussion to the fudcon-planning list for follow-up
17:44:17 <EvilBob> It's an open list for subscribers?
17:44:22 <stickster> Absolutely
17:44:34 <mdomsch> EvilBob, and the archive is open too :-)
17:44:35 <stickster> See link above (or in notes later)
17:44:54 <stickster> EvilBob: Thanks for your question!
17:45:18 <stickster> Oh wait, it looks like EvilBob had another related but distinct question
17:45:35 <stickster> EvilBob: You had a question about community focus at the Toronto event, go ahead
17:45:51 <EvilBob> I was just wondering how well it went
17:46:12 <EvilBob> and a comment, I think we missed to boat a little on promoting it to the User contingent. I found myself telling two people in the area about the event, One was a student at the host location.
17:46:15 <stickster> There were two immediate problems we observed, neither of which was fatal
17:46:17 * mmcgrath wants context about this question
17:46:31 <stickster> 1. The BarCamp method starts to break down with larger audiences if it's constrained to one day
17:46:35 <caillon> EvilBob, the survey ends tomorrow... i think that may help answer your question.
17:46:50 <EvilBob> caillon: I forgot about that
17:47:00 <caillon> (assuming people partake)
17:47:13 * mmcgrath took it.  Google voice question?  comon :)
17:47:20 <EvilBob> mmcgrath: Just wondering if Users made it, how was the event from their POV
17:47:20 <stickster> 2. The wealth of good talks means we might need to rethink the overall FUDCon schedule, but the survey may give us more info
17:47:37 <stickster> #link https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-announce-list/2010-January/msg00000.html
17:47:39 <mmcgrath> EvilBob: oh oh, ok.
17:47:59 <stickster> #info Fedora announcements list has a link to the survey, which closes Friday! https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-announce-list/2010-January/msg00000.html
17:48:08 <mmcgrath> stickster: I think we'd be better off not re-thinking the schedule but re-thinking what we want FUDCon to be.
17:48:13 <EvilBob> More feedback will come from the survey, sorry I forgot about it.
17:48:46 <stickster> EvilBob: We actually had a surprising number of users. There's no way to get a straight count on this, because that measurement assumes there's some clear division between users and other groups
17:48:49 <stickster> We're all users in a sense
17:49:00 <EvilBob> stickster: True
17:49:15 <caillon> mmcgrath, agree with that statement 100%
17:49:15 <stickster> But if you were to classify a group of "People who haven't come to a Fedora event before, and aren't involved in the Project weekly" it was a substantial number.
17:49:39 <stickster> I say that from the perspective of someone who was at the registration table, greeting people and getting a sense of where they were coming from
17:49:40 <EvilBob> stickster: sounds like a success to me
17:49:51 <stickster> We had well over 200 attendees for the event
17:50:07 <mmcgrath> stickster: are we trending up on fudcons pretty well?
17:50:29 <ctyler> Attendance at the user track varied widely, ranging from a handful of people to 30+ per room.
17:50:33 <stickster> And Mel Chua and Jean-Francois, one of our Ambassadors in Toronto, did a good job emailing local LUGs and also working with the organizers of Ontario Linux Fest to spread the word (including with a paper ad that went to all OLF attendees)
17:50:56 <stickster> mmcgrath: Yes, but it's not a geometric progression by any means.
17:51:03 <mmcgrath> yeah
17:51:21 <stickster> This was definitely the biggest event we've ever had in terms of total attendance
17:51:32 <stickster> Maybe only marginally more than the Raleigh FUDCon a couple years ago.
17:51:44 <glezos> stickster: worldwide? I thought Brno was pretty big
17:52:15 <stickster> glezos: I'll have to look back at the reports for that event, but I think we may have topped it with this one
17:52:17 <caillon> the Karlsruhe event in 06? had a really large attendance too... then again it was piggybacking off LinuxTag
17:52:42 <ctyler> I got some interesting feedback, I think some casual Fedora users found the idea of FUDcon intimidating, but those that came enjoyed it.
17:53:08 * mdomsch found it to be intense - I'd definitely worry about that for newcomers.
17:53:11 <glezos> awesome.
17:53:38 <stickster> ctyler: If you are able to collect that feedback and post it in a couple places, it would be very helpful in terms of publicity for the next event
17:53:59 <ctyler> stickster: Will work on that.
17:54:22 <stickster> #action ctyler will gather some of the feedback from FUDCon attendees in Toronto who are casual users
17:54:31 <stickster> ctyler: And definitely encourage them to fill out the survey!
17:54:39 <ctyler> yes :-)
17:54:57 * stickster notes jwb had to drop off for $DAYJOB exigencies
17:54:58 <mdomsch> "intense" - more interesting sessions than I could possibly attend; deep content in the sessions I did attend;
17:55:35 <stickster> The most common complaint was "I only got to see <n>% of the sessions I wanted to attend" where <n> was between 1/3 and 2/3
17:55:43 <ctyler> 8 sessions wide almost guaranteed that
17:55:47 <stickster> ctyler: Correct.
17:56:04 <glezos> stickster: that's a pretty good comment, in terms of showing the quality of the conference.
17:56:20 <stickster> So let's close out this topic by saying, we definitely need to look at the survey results, which we will be doing in cooperation with the Fedora Marketing team, to see how we might improve the next offering.
17:56:57 <stickster> #info FUDCon planners will work with Marketing to glean information from survey results
17:57:18 <stickster> I'd like to encourage everyone to fill out the survey (it only takes a few minutes) and be candid with your thoughts.
17:57:33 <stickster> Move on?
17:58:14 <glezos> stickster: +1
17:58:25 <stickster> #topic AOB
17:58:53 <stickster> OK, we're at ~1 hour now, so with no more community questions in the queue, we are getting ready to close the meeting. However...
17:59:28 <stickster> I want to note that John Poelstra raised an excellent point on his blog this week about how to move our audience work forward more readily, which is not to constrain it so much to a once-a-week Board meeting.
18:00:13 <ctyler> +1
18:00:47 <stickster> I think that any Board members who are interested in actively leading on this topic are able and willing to work on it in a group, and we can set up a separate call for that purpose.
18:01:37 <stickster> As much as I think we don't want meeting sprawl, the topic is too important and has been too sluggish, and it gives the community a misperception that we're aloof about it
18:01:39 * spot isn't opposed to a separate working group, as long as the board ratifies any proposals they come up with
18:02:52 <walters> do we have a wiki page on proposals that would differ from the current one?
18:03:05 <mmcgrath> walters: there's a current one?
18:03:07 <notting> one issue i've noticed is that by not having a defined time, such as the meeting, outside proposals seem to disappear for a while
18:03:10 <spot> walters: to be fair, i'm not sure there is a current proposal.
18:03:15 <stickster> spot: I agree, and I think this group (which could involve people outside the Board if desired) could make a goal of preparing digestible, actionable items
18:03:43 * spot notes that the board doesn't even seem to agree on what it has already agreed on in this space. ;)
18:03:48 <walters> mmcgrath: well, we have a start
18:03:58 <mmcgrath> we do?
18:04:02 <mmcgrath> :)
18:04:09 <stickster> notting: I'm suggesting having at least one definitive weekly meeting to do this work, but to keep it from hitting the Board until it's clear what the Board ought to do with it.
18:04:12 <walters> mmcgrath: http://lwn.net/Articles/358865/ no?
18:04:48 <stickster> We do.
18:04:51 <mmcgrath> I've read through that a couple of times and have no idea what it means
18:05:07 <mmcgrath> at least wrt the target audience
18:06:23 <walters> well, ok anyways the current topic of moving it outside regular meetings sounds fine to me
18:07:05 <stickster> OK, I'll solicit a list of participants and we'll set up a time and initial agenda.
18:07:41 <stickster> I know John is passionate about this so I'll probably work with him to do those three things.
18:07:42 <mdomsch> sounds good; we need some dedicated focus to make progress on it
18:07:55 <walters> agree with spot though about it coming back for the whole board
18:07:59 <mdomsch> and the "work on it; bring a proposal to the wider board" is a good approach
18:08:41 <glezos> sounds like a plan, i think bringing concrete proposals to the board has worked well in the past, instead of brainstorming.
18:08:55 * spot would add that he would be interested in also having the working group propose an answer to the simple question of "Can a spin define its own target audience or not?"
18:08:57 <stickster> #action stickster and poelstra to make initial agenda, solicit participants, and select time for a working group meeting
18:09:22 <stickster> spot: We'll add that to the potential agenda items then, thanks
18:09:46 <stickster> I don't have anything else on this, but I'm glad there are already some interested people putting up hands. Thanks.
18:10:11 <stickster> <eof/>
18:10:18 <stickster> Any Other Business?
18:10:56 <stickster> OK, silence is consent (to end)
18:10:59 <notting> it's been an honor to serve with all of you. have fun! :)
18:11:10 <mmcgrath> notting: :)
18:11:13 <stickster> Thank you Bill and Dimitris for everything you've done for the Board
18:11:14 <mdomsch> three cheers for departing notting
18:11:15 <stickster> and for Fedora
18:11:19 <mdomsch> and glezos
18:11:26 <glezos> stickster: It was an absolute joy, pleasure and honor.
18:11:28 <dgilmore> notting: thanks for all the fish
18:11:38 <stickster> mdomsch: Does this mean you now hold the "old timer award" for Board members?
18:11:55 <mdomsch> for another year I suppose :-)
18:12:02 <mdomsch> (unless you kick me off before then)
18:12:03 <stickster> glezos: And continued good fortune to you and your coworkers in Indifex
18:12:17 <glezos> stickster: Thank you sir. =)
18:12:45 <stickster> closing in 15
18:12:50 <stickster> 10
18:12:56 <stickster> 5
18:13:03 <stickster> #endmeeting