2025-04-09 14:02:42 <@amoloney:fedora.im> !startmeeting Fedora Council Meeting
2025-04-09 14:02:44 <@meetbot:fedora.im> Meeting started at 2025-04-09 14:02:42 UTC
2025-04-09 14:02:44 <@meetbot:fedora.im> The Meeting name is 'Fedora Council Meeting'
2025-04-09 14:02:49 <@asamalik:fedora.im> !hi
2025-04-09 14:02:50 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Adam Samalik (asamalik) - he / him / his
2025-04-09 14:02:52 <@bookwar:fedora.im> !hi
2025-04-09 14:02:53 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Aleksandra Fedorova (bookwar) - she / her / hers
2025-04-09 14:02:58 <@dcantrell:fedora.im> !hi
2025-04-09 14:02:59 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !hi
2025-04-09 14:02:59 <@zodbot:fedora.im> David Cantrell (dcantrell) - he / him / his
2025-04-09 14:03:01 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Justin W. Wheeler (jflory7) - he / him / his
2025-04-09 14:03:13 <@jonatoni:fedora.im> !hi
2025-04-09 14:03:14 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Jona Azizaj (jonatoni) - she / her / hers
2025-04-09 14:03:28 <@mattdm:fedora.im> !hi
2025-04-09 14:03:30 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Matthew Miller (mattdm) - he / him / his
2025-04-09 14:03:58 <@jflory7:fedora.im> It is a nice crowd 🙂 
2025-04-09 14:04:03 <@amoloney:fedora.im> Cool, this might be one of our main attended in a while!
2025-04-09 14:04:08 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I should have brought birthday cake to our meeting though 🙂 
2025-04-09 14:04:14 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Happy birthday Jona Azizaj (she/her) 🎂
2025-04-09 14:04:39 <@amoloney:fedora.im> Aw happy birthday Jona Azizaj (she/her) !!🎉
2025-04-09 14:05:13 <@jonatoni:fedora.im> Thank you 💙🎉
2025-04-09 14:05:20 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !link https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/fedora-council-meeting-agenda-2025-04-09/148464
2025-04-09 14:05:26 <@jflory7:fedora.im> ^^ Today's agenda, for the curious
2025-04-09 14:05:48 <@jflory7:fedora.im> A git forge update, oh my 🙂 
2025-04-09 14:06:16 <@darkaxl017:fedora.im> HBD Jona Azizaj (she/her) !! 🎉🥳🎂
2025-04-09 14:06:33 <@dcantrell:fedora.im> I heard git has been a failure and we are just going back to cvs.
2025-04-09 14:06:50 <@dcantrell:fedora.im> /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
2025-04-09 14:06:54 <@mattdm:fedora.im> I think we should info the agenda rather than link it, so that things don't bitrot in the future. i mean, not that it really matters but it makes the meetbot summary better
2025-04-09 14:06:58 <@amoloney:fedora.im> Well Im putting foward good ole fashioned pen and paper
2025-04-09 14:07:25 <@amoloney:fedora.im> Justin W. Wheeler (@jflory7): are you running todays call or will I?
2025-04-09 14:07:31 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I can run it!
2025-04-09 14:07:32 <@amoloney:fedora.im> *meeting
2025-04-09 14:07:33 <@mattdm:fedora.im> (like, !topic agenda, and then list the things, that's all)
2025-04-09 14:07:33 <@asamalik:fedora.im> cvs?! why have I been proactively emailing tarballs to people then?
2025-04-09 14:07:34 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Let's get going.
2025-04-09 14:07:42 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !topic Follow-ups for today
2025-04-09 14:07:48 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !info Git Forge Update
2025-04-09 14:07:53 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !info Proven Packager incident
2025-04-09 14:08:01 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !info Initiative vote: https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/rfc-new-community-initiative-gitops-for-fedora-packaging/146990
2025-04-09 14:08:01 <@dcantrell:fedora.im> you should consider sharballs, they are more portable
2025-04-09 14:08:06 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !topic Git Forge Update
2025-04-09 14:08:12 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Who is chairing this topic?
2025-04-09 14:08:16 <@amoloney:fedora.im> this is my topic
2025-04-09 14:08:16 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Or who has the update? 😄 
2025-04-09 14:08:25 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Floor is yours, Aoife Moloney 🙌
2025-04-09 14:09:13 <@dcantrell:fedora.im> (also, the floor is lava)
2025-04-09 14:09:22 <@amoloney:fedora.im> Parcour
2025-04-09 14:09:56 <@amoloney:fedora.im> So the dev team are getting ready to send a communication announcing pagure is no longer available for *new* projects to be hosted
2025-04-09 14:10:00 <@amoloney:fedora.im> https://codeberg.org/fedora/forgejo-deployment/issues/23
2025-04-09 14:10:36 <@amoloney:fedora.im> I owed them an ack from council on this, specifically wording we may want to use in the email and/or on a banner on the pagure.io site
2025-04-09 14:11:56 <@amoloney:fedora.im> I believe its being, or has been, discussed with infra too https://pagure.io/fedora-infra/forgejo-deployment/issue/13
2025-04-09 14:12:17 <@mattdm:fedora.im> ack from me to the email in that messag
2025-04-09 14:12:25 <@mattdm:fedora.im> ack from me to the email in that ticket
2025-04-09 14:12:51 <@bookwar:fedora.im> +1 from me too
2025-04-09 14:13:22 <@amoloney:fedora.im> There will be more comms going out, but this will be the first official 'heads up, this is happening'
2025-04-09 14:13:48 <@amoloney:fedora.im> exciting :)
2025-04-09 14:14:13 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Ryan's specific email, FYI:
2025-04-09 14:14:15 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !link https://codeberg.org/fedora/forgejo-deployment/issues/23#issuecomment-3493760
2025-04-09 14:14:17 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I am +1 to that.
2025-04-09 14:14:47 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Yes, it is!!
2025-04-09 14:14:50 <@jflory7:fedora.im> A long time coming.
2025-04-09 14:14:59 <@amoloney:fedora.im> final thoughts Jona Azizaj (she/her) dcantrell asamalik ?
2025-04-09 14:15:07 <@asamalik:fedora.im> +1 too if this is a vote :) 
2025-04-09 14:15:08 <@dcantrell:fedora.im> +1
2025-04-09 14:15:12 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Also, a little nostalgic because Pagure has had quite a 10-year journey 🥹
2025-04-09 14:15:15 <@jonatoni:fedora.im> +1 from me too
2025-04-09 14:15:31 <@amoloney:fedora.im> more of an ack than a vote, but the +1 serves the same purpose in this case :)
2025-04-09 14:15:52 <@amoloney:fedora.im> thanks! Ill let the team know 'Council Approves This Message'
2025-04-09 14:15:54 <@jflory7:fedora.im> pingou++
2025-04-09 14:15:57 <@zodbot:fedora.im> jflory7 gave a cookie to pingou. They now have 319 cookies, 2 of which were obtained in the Fedora 41 release cycle
2025-04-09 14:16:47 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Anything else here, Aoife Moloney?
2025-04-09 14:17:05 <@amoloney:fedora.im> nope, it can have an agreed statement. Ill add it now
2025-04-09 14:17:59 <@amoloney:fedora.im> !agreed Council approves the email communication the Forgejo Dev team have proposed to send to the Fedora community notifying people that pagure.io will no longer be able to host new projects
2025-04-09 14:18:25 <@jflory7:fedora.im> OK. So, congrats all, this was probably the fastest git forge topic in the history of any Fedora Council meeting ever.
2025-04-09 14:18:28 <@jflory7:fedora.im> 🏆️
2025-04-09 14:18:32 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Let's keep plugging along.
2025-04-09 14:18:43 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !topic Proven Packager incident
2025-04-09 14:18:49 <@amoloney:fedora.im> this one is mine too
2025-04-09 14:18:57 <@jflory7:fedora.im> The lava floor is back to you 🙂 
2025-04-09 14:19:23 <@amoloney:fedora.im> I guess Im a glutton for punishment 🙊
2025-04-09 14:21:01 <@amoloney:fedora.im> this is very quick - I have started a draft for the councils official statement on the topic. I meant to have something in place last week, but life I guess. Apologies. Its in a google doc, I will share it with you all now via the google doc and my aim is to have something to send to FESCo members and Peter Robinson to have a read of first before we publish it by early next week
2025-04-09 14:21:20 <@dcantrell:fedora.im> sounds good to me
2025-04-09 14:21:28 <@amoloney:fedora.im> All going well, we should try get this published by April 18?
2025-04-09 14:21:44 <@jflory7:fedora.im> +1 from me
2025-04-09 14:22:08 <@mattdm:fedora.im> sounds good
2025-04-09 14:22:16 <@mattdm:fedora.im> and thanks, Aoife!
2025-04-09 14:22:26 <@amoloney:fedora.im> no problem at all
2025-04-09 14:22:55 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Was this the only update though?
2025-04-09 14:23:00 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Or do you need input from us?
2025-04-09 14:23:08 <@amoloney:fedora.im> yeah that was it, no action needed, just an FYI
2025-04-09 14:23:19 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Ah, okay.
2025-04-09 14:23:27 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Well, anyone else have something to add for this topic?
2025-04-09 14:23:32 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Otherwise, we will keep plugging along.
2025-04-09 14:23:39 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I'll write some summaries for the minutes meanwhile.
2025-04-09 14:24:20 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !info @amoloney is working on a draft with an official statement. Currently it is in a Google Doc and open to feedback with other Council members. Next, it will go to FESCo members and Peter Robinson before review. The targeted publication date is April 18th.
2025-04-09 14:24:45 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !info Thanks @amoloney for pushing this important communication forward.
2025-04-09 14:25:14 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !topic New Community Initiative discussion & vote
2025-04-09 14:25:17 <@jflory7:fedora.im> !link https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/rfc-new-community-initiative-gitops-for-fedora-packaging/146990
2025-04-09 14:25:34 <@jflory7:fedora.im> bookwar: This one is you, I think?
2025-04-09 14:26:11 <@amoloney:fedora.im> this is a follow up from last meeting. Council asked for more time to read the proposal before we vote, so I assume everyone is now in a better position to vote?
2025-04-09 14:26:20 <@amoloney:fedora.im> I am +1 to this initiative
2025-04-09 14:26:45 <@mattdm:fedora.im> Justin, are you still -1?
2025-04-09 14:27:01 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I am looking in the proposal for details about communication milestones
2025-04-09 14:27:09 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Any feedback on my feedback last time?
2025-04-09 14:27:37 <@mattdm:fedora.im> is bookwar here?
2025-04-09 14:27:42 <@bookwar:fedora.im> Yes
2025-04-09 14:27:54 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I see the last edit to the proposal was Matthew on March 18th
2025-04-09 14:27:56 <@mattdm:fedora.im> Then I will let you speak for yourself :)
2025-04-09 14:29:01 <@bookwar:fedora.im> My understanding of the current state is that: I don't want to add communication work council must do for itself into the initiative
2025-04-09 14:29:45 <@bookwar:fedora.im> This should be part of the generic Council initiave process, where we announce council decisions and keep the community uptodate on what current active council initiatives are
2025-04-09 14:30:20 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Can we identify what that communication work is?
2025-04-09 14:30:50 <@jflory7:fedora.im> As I understand the process today, this is not part of the Council Initiative process and was one of the biggest challenges we have had with our two previous and one ongoing Initiative too
2025-04-09 14:31:13 <@jflory7:fedora.im> We need some accountability for the communication work somewhere
2025-04-09 14:31:37 <@mattdm:fedora.im> I agree with both of you. We should have this, but we should add it to an SOP for https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/initiatives/, rather than to each initiative
2025-04-09 14:31:59 <@jflory7:fedora.im> We still have to take a vote on this today, though.
2025-04-09 14:32:01 <@mattdm:fedora.im> Maybe this is something CommOps can draft?
2025-04-09 14:32:26 <@jflory7:fedora.im> CommOps hasn't been included on this proposal? I am mindful that we are trying to gear up on Flock and Mentor Summit right now too.
2025-04-09 14:32:48 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I need to know that this work is going to be under active consideration and not deferred until it is either forgotten or too late.
2025-04-09 14:33:00 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I need to know that this communication work is going to be under active consideration and not deferred until it is either forgotten or too late.
2025-04-09 14:33:09 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Who takes accountability?
2025-04-09 14:33:21 <@amoloney:fedora.im> who is the council sponsor for this initiative?
2025-04-09 14:33:28 <@bookwar:fedora.im> Justin W. Wheeler (@jflory7): We need to separate the topics of how Council handles the initiative and "what are the work items within the initiative"
2025-04-09 14:33:39 <@bookwar:fedora.im> Justin W. Wheeler (@jflory7): We need to separate the topics of how Council handles initiatives and "what are the work items within the initiative"e
2025-04-09 14:33:48 <@mattdm:fedora.im> It's me. I'm the sponsor it's me.
2025-04-09 14:34:17 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Communication about a change as large as this should be a work item. I don't know who should own it, but it needs to be accounted for and explicitly present.
2025-04-09 14:34:30 <@amoloney:fedora.im> ok, exec sponsor should work with this team to make sure communication milestones are in place and looked after
2025-04-09 14:34:35 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I have just seen us charge forward too many times over the years without a plan of how we will talk about big change with the community 🤷‍♂️
2025-04-09 14:34:47 <@mattdm:fedora.im> Agreed, but let's separate it.
2025-04-09 14:34:55 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Sometimes those decisions end up causing expensive problems later.
2025-04-09 14:34:55 <@dcantrell:fedora.im> Our anti-hero.
2025-04-09 14:35:38 <@jflory7:fedora.im> At the current moment, I am still -1 because I don't feel like any of my concerns were accounted for or addressed. This was the #1 thing for me.
2025-04-09 14:35:50 <@amoloney:fedora.im> so mattdm  I trust you will follow up and do some due diligence with bookwar and those working on this initiative that there'll be appropriate communication
2025-04-09 14:36:35 <@jflory7:fedora.im> All I want for my +1 is some accountability and advance identification of what appropriate communication looks like and what it is supposed to mean.
2025-04-09 14:36:49 <@amoloney:fedora.im> As a reminder, I believe this came up the last time and its important to note that this work is investigatory
2025-04-09 14:37:02 <@amoloney:fedora.im> bookwar: correct me if Im wrong
2025-04-09 14:37:24 <@bookwar:fedora.im> Aoife Moloney: you are right. The initiative on its own does not create a change
2025-04-09 14:37:25 <@amoloney:fedora.im> I understood that this work needs to be investigated first and proved viable before a larger, more permanent change happpens
2025-04-09 14:37:33 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Because it is investigatory and the community has strong opinions about this, it reinforces my belief that communication planning is critical
2025-04-09 14:38:05 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Somehow, we need to talk about this work as we go instead of doing it in a silo and then presenting a finished product
2025-04-09 14:38:07 <@bookwar:fedora.im> It is not clear to me what kind of work item we are supposed to request from CommOps team, which is also already known to be overwhelmed with all other tasks
2025-04-09 14:38:30 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I am confused about how CommOps came into this frankly, because I thought the challenge others had was that the communication should be a Council-owned thing.
2025-04-09 14:38:32 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Now it is CommOps?
2025-04-09 14:38:35 <@mattdm:fedora.im> I will take accountability for making sure that good communications happen.
2025-04-09 14:38:35 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I am not following this.
2025-04-09 14:38:55 <@jflory7:fedora.im> mattdm: I want a plan.
2025-04-09 14:39:00 <@mattdm:fedora.im> I brought up CommOps as possibly helping us draft a standard comms plan for initiatives
2025-04-09 14:39:17 <@mattdm:fedora.im> But if that group isn't the right place to do it, we can do that at a council level.
2025-04-09 14:39:20 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I see. That could potentially be a fit, but that is not going to solve the issue we have right now
2025-04-09 14:39:40 <@bookwar:fedora.im> There is a plan. It includes communication steps required to request feedback about the initiative from the community
2025-04-09 14:39:44 <@amoloney:fedora.im> this issue is a bit silly to me to block on
2025-04-09 14:39:45 <@mattdm:fedora.im> Are the things you see as _particularly specific_ to this initiative? That's where I'm a little lost.
2025-04-09 14:40:12 <@jflory7:fedora.im> 
2025-04-09 14:40:12 <@jflory7:fedora.im> This is the only detail I see about communication in the proposal:
2025-04-09 14:40:12 <@jflory7:fedora.im> > "Support for presenting the work at Flock and other relevant places and collecting feedback"
2025-04-09 14:40:26 <@jflory7:fedora.im> This is super vague 😕 
2025-04-09 14:40:30 <@bookwar:fedora.im> February, FOSDEM 2026 - Collect feedback, present the result, and propose next steps at CentOS Connect or Distribution Devroom.
2025-04-09 14:40:30 <@bookwar:fedora.im> August 15, 2025 - Announce the work on Fedora Magazine and start the feedback gathering
2025-04-09 14:40:36 <@bookwar:fedora.im> There are two items ^^
2025-04-09 14:43:07 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I guess I want to see a gradual onramp of increased communication as things are either successful or unsuccessful.
2025-04-09 14:43:07 <@jflory7:fedora.im> 
2025-04-09 14:43:07 <@jflory7:fedora.im> - How is feedback going to be transparently collected? Is this going to happen in the public or in Red Hat internal ticketing systems? Where is the community engagement piece?
2025-04-09 14:43:07 <@jflory7:fedora.im> - Specific stakeholders to collect feedback from other than "community". Who do we involve at different points? Different groups of contributors have different feedback. We don't always need to do something massively public, as much as it is talk to specific stakeholders, packagers, or leaders in the community.
2025-04-09 14:43:07 <@jflory7:fedora.im> 
2025-04-09 14:43:07 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I am pretty sure I provided something like this last time in the Council meeting, but off the top of my head, here are some specifics:
2025-04-09 14:44:18 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I don't like it when we say "ask the community for feedback" because that does not seem to account for how wide and spread-out our community is. For instance, there are different things you post to the Magazine from what goes to devel@
2025-04-09 14:44:40 <@mattdm:fedora.im> that's fair
2025-04-09 14:44:41 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I just feel like we are setting ourselves up for challenges when we are already going through so many huge changes at once
2025-04-09 14:44:53 <@jflory7:fedora.im> We need to make sure we are not giving the community whiplash
2025-04-09 14:45:07 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I remember a comment someone shared about a notable Python packager who felt like he has no idea how the project collaborates anymore
2025-04-09 14:45:14 <@jflory7:fedora.im> And I felt that one
2025-04-09 14:45:21 <@jflory7:fedora.im> This is something that touches on that specific in my eyes
2025-04-09 14:45:50 <@mattdm:fedora.im> 
2025-04-09 14:45:50 <@mattdm:fedora.im> So
2025-04-09 14:45:50 <@mattdm:fedora.im> 
2025-04-09 14:45:50 <@mattdm:fedora.im> "* August 15, 2025 - Announce the work on Fedora Magazine and start the feedback gathering from packagers and the infrastructure team"
2025-04-09 14:45:50 <@mattdm:fedora.im> and "feedback will be collected through an initiative-specific tag on discourse"
2025-04-09 14:46:34 <@mattdm:fedora.im> and maybe "significant findings from investigation and feedback will be tracked in a forgejo project"
2025-04-09 14:47:27 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I know this is frustrating, but I also hope that you can see my perspective of how we have handled (and often fumbled) communicating about really big shifts on how we collaborate and work together as a community. I am not going to change my vote until I see something in writing on the proposal. I was a little disappointed that we had this long conversation last time, and it took until this moment in this meeting for it to come up that my feedback was vetoed and decided it was not relevant.
2025-04-09 14:47:33 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I wish we had this conversation weeks ago 😕 
2025-04-09 14:48:28 <@bookwar:fedora.im> We had discussed it. And I did ask explicitly to put the suggestions you have into the thread on Discourse
2025-04-09 14:48:54 <@jflory7:fedora.im> mattdm: Those things are improvements, yes. I would like to see at least a few more things integrated into the timeline.
2025-04-09 14:49:16 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I'm sorry, I must have missed that action. I can take some accountability myself and get this feedback articulated in the Discourse thread.
2025-04-09 14:49:42 <@amoloney:fedora.im> Id wager this is more discourse v email than much else. but thats a topic for another day
2025-04-09 14:49:57 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Hah, yeah, Discourse still hurts me but I won't get into that either 😛 
2025-04-09 14:50:15 <@bookwar:fedora.im> Currently you are going a bit too deep in the details, to my taste.  I am not expected to write which bug tracker I am going to use to track this initiative in the initiative proposal. The same way - I am not specifying which exact category the communication should go into.
2025-04-09 14:50:53 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I don't expect you to tell me which git repo or bug tracker you will use to collect feedback, but I expect to know from whom you will collect feedback, when you will start collecting feedback, and at about what times you are expecting input from people in the community
2025-04-09 14:51:02 <@bookwar:fedora.im> The initiative has multiple stakeholders, users, contributors, packagers, developers, and infrastructure people. Yes, gathering feedback from the community means all of them
2025-04-09 14:51:06 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Because people will want to know, and for me, I want to know where to direct people at what points
2025-04-09 14:51:12 <@amoloney:fedora.im> Im pretty sure the 'mode of communication' was going to be discourse anyway
2025-04-09 14:51:24 <@amoloney:fedora.im> I dont get why this needs to be spelled out in an investigation phase
2025-04-09 14:51:25 <@jflory7:fedora.im> But that is too much at once, it is overwhelming to try to talk to everyone at once.
2025-04-09 14:51:27 <@bookwar:fedora.im> Do i know exactly which channel I am going to use right now - I am not sure I have to write it down to every single one
2025-04-09 14:51:41 <@jflory7:fedora.im> That is not what I am looking for
2025-04-09 14:51:44 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Now it is going too deep
2025-04-09 14:51:50 <@bookwar:fedora.im> That's why I have several months allocated for this work
2025-04-09 14:52:23 <@mattdm:fedora.im> 
2025-04-09 14:52:23 <@mattdm:fedora.im> Council will need some additional time to review this proposal, but do support the investigation into an alternative git-based workflow for packaging, however we are reluctant to approve it yet without a clearer understanding of the 'grand end goal' of this work and need more communication milestones to exist as part of the proposal. We will make a formal decision on this at the next council meeting on April 9th and engage with the proposers for additional context in the discussion thread in the meantime 
2025-04-09 14:52:23 <@mattdm:fedora.im> FWIW what we agreed on was:
2025-04-09 14:52:26 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I'd like to break it down into smaller pieces around communication. The technical work is well-represented in this way but I see the piece about integrating community feedback milestones in the proposal as critical
2025-04-09 14:53:14 <@asamalik:fedora.im> The way I see this, it's an investigation. It's not changing anything for anyone.
2025-04-09 14:53:14 <@asamalik:fedora.im> 
2025-04-09 14:53:14 <@asamalik:fedora.im> In my opinion this gives way less pressure about having refined communication plans before this even starts. By definition, an investigation can go multiple ways, attracting different people with different problems etc. So I'm personally quite OK with it being open like this.
2025-04-09 14:53:14 <@asamalik:fedora.im> 
2025-04-09 14:53:14 <@asamalik:fedora.im> It starts with "The goal of the initiative is to explore the possibility to..." which makes that super clear.
2025-04-09 14:53:17 <@jflory7:fedora.im> That looks right mattdm but I don't see the communication milestones as part of the proposal
2025-04-09 14:54:08 <@mattdm:fedora.im> Since you were the one advocating for those,we were kind of of waiting for you to provide more detail in the discussion thread 
2025-04-09 14:54:15 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I want to know who is being included when 😕 
2025-04-09 14:54:29 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I missed the action that I was supposed to reply on Fedora Discussion
2025-04-09 14:54:30 <@mattdm:fedora.im> I am still not sure what exactly you mean by "communications milestones"
2025-04-09 14:54:34 <@amoloney:fedora.im> bookwar:  can you stick in 'Announcing the investigation' and then 'reminder about feedback deadline' and 'publishing of feedback' as a few milestones? Is that good enough for an *investigation*?
2025-04-09 14:54:47 <@mattdm:fedora.im> Like, can you give an example of what one would look like?
2025-04-09 14:55:22 <@jflory7:fedora.im> These are my unanswered questions
2025-04-09 14:55:26 <@bookwar:fedora.im> I do treat "gathering feedback" as big part of an actual work on that initiative. It is definitely not just code it, run it, and say "done". And I think it is reflected in the timeline. I can adjust the wording around it, but this is where I am looking for explicit suggestions.
2025-04-09 14:56:00 <@mattdm:fedora.im> From that...
2025-04-09 14:56:00 <@mattdm:fedora.im> 
2025-04-09 14:56:00 <@mattdm:fedora.im> Actions to improve initiatives
2025-04-09 14:56:00 <@mattdm:fedora.im> 
2025-04-09 14:56:00 <@mattdm:fedora.im>     Add requirements to initiatives page, similar to Editions promotion
2025-04-09 14:56:00 <@mattdm:fedora.im>     [??] Create a playbook for a lead to follow when running an initiative
2025-04-09 14:56:00 <@mattdm:fedora.im>     [Jason] Create a playbook for exec sponsor to follow for initatives
2025-04-09 14:56:07 <@mattdm:fedora.im> ping Jason Brooks :)
2025-04-09 14:56:14 <@amoloney:fedora.im> those are not milestones. they're open quesitons
2025-04-09 14:56:23 <@amoloney:fedora.im> those are not milestones. they're open questions
2025-04-09 14:56:55 <@mattdm:fedora.im> Also from the council hackfest, we said that we want a weekly update on each initiative posted to DIscussion
2025-04-09 14:56:56 <@jflory7:fedora.im> - "Include input and interviews with proven packages in Month X"
2025-04-09 14:56:56 <@jflory7:fedora.im> - "Invite feedback over 2-3 weeks around Month Y in a public discussion with the development community on devel@ and Fedora Discussion"
2025-04-09 14:56:56 <@jflory7:fedora.im> - "Create documentation about ongoing findings of the investigatory work by Month Z"
2025-04-09 14:57:17 <@amoloney:fedora.im> thats a timeline
2025-04-09 14:57:19 <@amoloney:fedora.im> not milestones
2025-04-09 14:57:20 <@bookwar:fedora.im> If change the word 'community' to 'community: users, contributors, packagers, developers, and infrastructure people', will it be enough?
2025-04-09 14:57:47 <@mattdm:fedora.im> so that's the _start_ of a standards comms SoP
2025-04-09 14:57:59 <@jflory7:fedora.im> No, the community definition is too broad. I really want to know who we are talking with when. A proven packager is going to have very different feedback on this than an everyday user
2025-04-09 14:58:03 <@bookwar:fedora.im> I honestly just don't get the core argument, so if you'd like a change, please work _with_ me on what exactly the change should be. 
2025-04-09 14:58:16 <@amoloney:fedora.im> I owe some work to the initiatives process from the hackfest so I will take ownership of that
2025-04-09 14:58:21 <@asamalik:fedora.im> that's quite a specific window for feedback 
2025-04-09 14:58:21 <@asamalik:fedora.im> August 15, 2025 - Announce the work on Fedora Magazine and start gathering feedback ...
2025-04-09 14:58:21 <@asamalik:fedora.im> February, FOSDEM 2026 - Collect feedback, present the result, and propose next steps...
2025-04-09 14:58:21 <@asamalik:fedora.im> 
2025-04-09 14:58:21 <@asamalik:fedora.im> It says:
2025-04-09 14:58:21 <@asamalik:fedora.im> 
2025-04-09 14:58:29 <@jflory7:fedora.im> This might be better over A/V than text, because I feel like I am trying to work with y'all on this but maybe we are communicating past each other 😕 
2025-04-09 14:58:55 <@asamalik:fedora.im> I really hope this won't get withdrawn out of frustration, because it's trying to explore an interesting thing. 
2025-04-09 14:58:57 <@mattdm:fedora.im> thanks Aoife. But let's not let Jason off the hook completely :)
2025-04-09 14:59:06 <@amoloney:fedora.im> Ill tag him
2025-04-09 14:59:10 <@jflory7:fedora.im> Feedback from who? Feedback on what? The whole world? 😕 
2025-04-09 14:59:13 <@amoloney:fedora.im> and I agree
2025-04-09 14:59:23 <@bookwar:fedora.im> I think it is better to work on Discourse. Ssuggest the edits as you see fit, and I will incorporate them in the text.
2025-04-09 14:59:24 <@amoloney:fedora.im> this is becoming really ridiculous
2025-04-09 14:59:43 <@mattdm:fedora.im> I have already edited it to say " Announce the work on Fedora Magazine and start gathering feedback from Fedora packagers and from Infrastructure, Release Engineering, and Quality Teams"
2025-04-09 14:59:45 <@asamalik:fedora.im> also, time over, we have to free this channel
2025-04-09 14:59:51 <@asamalik:fedora.im> we have 12 seconds
2025-04-09 14:59:53 <@jflory7:fedora.im> I also agree, because I value the work and I think it would have a positive impact. But I don't want to leave our community behind when we are already making so many huge changes in a relatively short time
2025-04-09 14:59:56 <@asamalik:fedora.im> there's a meeting right after us
2025-04-09 15:00:12 <@jflory7:fedora.im> OK. I also have to drop for another meeting too
2025-04-09 15:00:30 <@amoloney:fedora.im> !endmeeting