19:00:08 <mizmo> #startmeeting
19:00:08 <zodbot> Meeting started Tue Jun 21 19:00:08 2011 UTC.  The chair is mizmo. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
19:00:08 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
19:00:20 <mizmo> #topic roll call
19:00:23 <pcon> o/
19:00:29 <tatica> o/
19:00:35 <mizmo> o/ :)
19:00:42 <kirkB> o/
19:00:43 <Emichan> O/
19:00:46 * elad661 is here
19:00:47 <t2hot> o/
19:01:02 <tatica> :D
19:01:05 * gnokii re
19:01:13 <vinzv> o/
19:01:13 * ianweller 
19:01:23 <mizmo> coolio
19:01:29 <mizmo> #topic Fedora 16 Default Wallpaper
19:01:29 <finalzone> o/
19:01:38 <mizmo> so Tatica has been handling wrangler duties for the F16 wallpaper
19:01:45 <mizmo> she started a vote on Friday
19:01:52 <mizmo> and your votes are due... by now, right tatica?
19:01:58 <tatica> yup
19:02:06 <tatica> I don't know if anyone want to vote right now
19:02:15 <mizmo> any last-minute votes?
19:02:23 <mizmo> do you have a tally for the votes so far tatica?
19:02:24 <tatica> if so, please send me NOW your top 5 http://publictest04.fedoraproject.org/artboard/
19:02:36 <tatica> check each draw url number (ast one)
19:02:37 * vinzv will vote quickly
19:02:38 <tatica> mizmo, yup
19:03:11 <mizmo> hmm it looks like we have a last minute submission ROTFLMAO http://publictest04.fedoraproject.org/artboard/post/view/51
19:03:38 * t2hot lolz
19:03:44 <Emichan> it's got my vote :)
19:03:48 <tatica> LOL
19:03:54 <ianweller> that one has my vote as well.
19:04:01 <finalzone> ppfft
19:04:09 <mizmo> Emichan, ianweller, did you both get in all your votes on the thread?
19:04:15 <elad661> it needs some minor tweaks though
19:04:17 <elad661> :)
19:04:22 <Emichan> no - i'd like to add a last min vote for 46
19:04:28 <ianweller> mizmo: i have not voted yet no
19:04:36 <mizmo> Emichan: cool, you get up to 5, any others besides 46?
19:04:44 <ianweller> tatica: you want numbers for top 5? i can privmsg you them in a few
19:04:46 <mizmo> ianweller: now is your last chance to get 'em in :)
19:04:54 <tatica> ianweller, yeap!
19:04:56 <ianweller> k
19:04:59 <tatica> pcon, vote
19:05:02 <Emichan> 51
19:05:02 <mizmo> should we come back to this then when we get all votes in?
19:05:11 <pcon> here's my votes    42 47 41 35 (in no particular order)
19:05:11 <tatica> Emichan, 46 51 ?
19:05:52 <Emichan> tatica - 1 sec - let me look them all over again
19:06:06 <tatica> oki
19:06:18 <tatica> mizmo, if you want continue and give votes at the end
19:06:23 <tatica> people can send me their votes over pm
19:06:36 <tatica> no 51 for you people!
19:06:39 <mizmo> tatica: okay. how are you going to tally them? eg if different #'s for the same concept get voted on, are you going to combine them?
19:06:52 <mizmo> (we've combined in the past)
19:07:00 <Emichan> tatica - 46, 9, 11
19:07:15 <tatica> mizmo, I group them by concept
19:07:27 <tatica> so at the end no matter which mockup they vote, I will take them as concept
19:07:36 <mizmo> okay great
19:07:43 <mizmo> we'll move on to supplemental then, and come back to this topic
19:07:49 <tatica> +1
19:07:51 <mizmo> #topic Supplemental Wallpapers for Fedora 16
19:08:01 <mizmo> For the Fedora 16 supplemental wallpapers, pcon is our wallpaper wrangler! :)
19:08:11 <pcon> yay!
19:08:11 <mizmo> pcon sent out a blog announcement to get more submissions
19:08:19 <mizmo> we're using the wiki as the primary way to collect wallpapers, right?
19:08:23 <pcon> correct
19:08:28 <mizmo> we have submissions left over from F15 that will carry over
19:08:54 <pcon> we can carry them over if we want to.  I'm fine with that.  It'll help seed the pool
19:09:12 <mizmo> pcon: can you copy/paste the submissions from the f15 page into the f16 page?
19:09:19 <pcon> mizmo: sure will
19:09:23 <vinzv> pcon: is there a deadline for submissions?
19:09:24 <mizmo> #link http://blog.deadlypenguin.com/blog/2011/06/20/fedora-16-supplemental-wallpapers/  pcon's blog announcing f15 supplemental
19:09:39 <pcon> vinzv: yes there is.  It's on the wiki as well as in the blog post
19:09:49 <mizmo> #info We will take submissions until 23:59 UTC on August 9th 2011 following that the design team will vote for the top 15 and they will be packaged up and included in the Fedora 16 release.
19:10:10 <mizmo> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/F16_Artwork/Submissions/Supplemental_Wallpapers#Submissions
19:10:33 <mizmo> so everyone, look for some wallpapers to help get some high-quality artwork in the running
19:11:16 <mizmo> does anybody have questions / concerns about supplemental wallpapers?
19:11:24 <pcon> gallery updated
19:11:38 <pcon> oh noes.  it didn't save....
19:12:10 <Emichan> we want supplemental wallpapers to be photos, not drawings, right?
19:12:28 <mizmo> yep i think we've traditionally done photos only
19:12:44 <elad661> I don't see any reason not to have drawings
19:12:49 <elad661> if you make a really really good one
19:12:51 <mizmo> and you don't have to be the artist, but you have to make sure the artwork is licensed appropriate for fedora use
19:13:03 <mizmo> elad661: for supplemental drawings, we'll use the drawings folks work on for the default
19:13:06 <pcon> but that bring up a point.  All of the stuff on the page says "image" not photo
19:13:07 <mizmo> elad661: the ones that don't win the vote
19:13:09 <tatica> ?
19:13:21 <mizmo> elad661: eg the ones on the artboard
19:13:25 <elad661> ok
19:13:42 <tatica> what if we open a special non-prior for vector simple wallpapers? (those that you can manipulate background color with gnome, and things like that?)
19:13:52 <mizmo> pcon: its up to your discretion if you want to s/image/photo there
19:14:07 <pcon> I'm fine with it, and I think it'll all shake out during the voting
19:14:20 <mizmo> tatica: it would complicate voting.... probably we'd want a different submission pool for those
19:14:52 <mizmo> we could break the submission page into a photo gallery and a vector art gallery
19:14:58 <tatica> mizmo, +1
19:15:01 <mizmo> but, putting together background changeable vector artwork
19:15:04 <mizmo> is not something a lot of people do
19:15:08 <mizmo> it's a specialized skill
19:15:19 <mizmo> so i dont think we would get a whole lot of submissions, and it would confuse people looking to submit photos
19:15:24 <mizmo> so im not really sure it's worth doing
19:15:33 <tatica> that was my next question
19:15:34 <tatica> jeje
19:15:58 <mizmo> i would say, if folks are interested in doing background changeable vector artwork, go ahead and do it and we'll figure out how to package it later
19:16:13 <vinzv> mizmo: +1
19:16:14 <mizmo> it doesn't have to be a submission process since there won't be as many submissions
19:16:19 <mizmo> cool
19:16:48 <mizmo> #info supplemental wallpaper submissions will be photo only, if you're interested in submitting background-color-changeable SVG/vector wallpapers, work on it and let us know, we'll figure something out
19:16:56 <mizmo> okay anything else on supplemental wallpapers?
19:17:37 <mizmo> okay tatica how is the voting looking? are you still getting votes in, or are you ready to announce?
19:17:39 * tatica reminds: 14 people has voted so far... there is still time! pm me
19:18:05 * gnokii doesnt vote or vote for all
19:18:26 <vinzv> tatica: i just voted via mailing list
19:18:32 <tatica> vinzv, I got them too :D
19:18:39 <vinzv> alright :)
19:18:46 <mizmo> okay maybe we'll move to the next topic to give folks a bit more time to vote
19:18:58 <tatica> jajaj yeah
19:19:06 <mizmo> okay #topic anaconda UX
19:19:13 <mizmo> #topic anaconda UX / installer redesign
19:19:24 <mizmo> elad661: do you want to talk about where we're at with this? :)
19:19:40 <elad661> mizmo: I prefer you'll do the talking
19:19:46 <elad661> :)
19:19:48 <mizmo> lol okay
19:19:56 <mizmo> the full background on the project is here in this blog post from friday http://blog.linuxgrrl.com/2011/06/16/making-fedora-easier-to-use-the-installer-ux-redesign/
19:20:07 * t2hot ...that's how elad likes it :)
19:20:13 <mizmo> gejoreni started a blog and posted his research plan so far
19:20:23 <mizmo> #link http://blog.linuxgrrl.com/2011/06/16/making-fedora-easier-to-use-the-installer-ux-redesign/ <= ux redesign introduction / explanation
19:21:02 <mizmo> #link http://blog.gejoreni.com/?p=40  <= Joseph's research plan
19:21:21 <mizmo> if you'd like to help out, one thing you can do is look over Joseph's (gejoreni)'s research plan, and come up with questions to ask users
19:21:32 <mizmo> another thing you can do, is help us come up with idea for ransom notes!!
19:21:39 <mizmo> these are banners that will display as the install progresses
19:21:43 <mizmo> here is an example with the hot dog:
19:21:53 <mizmo> http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/hotdog/kitchen.png
19:21:59 * t2hot wow that's a lot of documentation .... good job
19:22:02 <mizmo> that's from.... a really old version of red hat linux, maybe red hat linux 8 or red hat linux 9
19:22:10 <elad661> oh, and don't forget to point out any issue or annoying thing or whatever in the current anaconda
19:22:15 * finalzone is glad animated banners will return
19:22:20 <elad661> and comment on our mockups
19:22:24 <mizmo> this is the fake one we have in our mockups http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/blog/pictures/mockups/hub2.png
19:22:29 <mizmo> we're thinking 750 px X 120 px
19:22:32 <mizmo> they can be funny
19:22:36 <tatica> brb
19:22:36 <mizmo> they can be serious
19:22:40 <mizmo> anything you can come up with that you think new users might want to see
19:22:48 <mizmo> yep and our mockups too, they are in the 'fedora-ux' sparkleshare
19:23:11 <finalzone> maybe some easter eggs like mini-games
19:23:13 <mizmo> our mockups are here: http://linuxgrrl.com/fedora-ux/Projects/Anaconda/Prototypes/
19:23:17 <tatica> back
19:23:22 <mizmo> finalzone: games might be harder but we can talk to the devels about it
19:23:39 <mizmo> something like asteroids / space invaders / or something you could play with the keyboard
19:23:46 <elad661> #link http://git.fedorahosted.org/git/?p=fedora-ux.git <- If you want to add our repo to your sparkleshare
19:23:48 <Emichan> pong!
19:23:55 <mizmo> instead of space invaders, ketchup, mustard, and relish falls from the sky and the hot dog needs to avoid it
19:24:06 <mizmo> hehe
19:24:08 <finalzone> mizmo: that was the idea
19:24:16 <mizmo> love it finalzone :)
19:24:17 <elad661> that's actually possible
19:24:26 <elad661> with a plugin to the second hub
19:24:34 <kirkB> mizmo: have you given any thought to banner blindness?  That second example looks a lot like  abnner ad and I'm not sure it would be seen by users.
19:25:05 <elad661> [user account] [sync] [send system info] [hotdog!]
19:25:25 <mizmo> kirkB: yeh definitely, but i think it's okay - they are just there for fun, there won't be any essential info required
19:25:53 <kirkB> any guidelines for style/colour etc?
19:25:55 <mizmo> the users at the same time the banner ads are going by, are going to be actively interacting with the interface - or away from the keyboard getting lunch while their machine installs
19:26:00 <elad661> actually our new design is more accessible
19:26:12 <elad661> because we have black text on white background
19:26:20 <elad661> =higher contrast
19:26:30 <mizmo> kirkB: the only guidelines so far (which may change as we tweak) is 750x120 px :)
19:26:42 <mizmo> we might say, stick to these 3 or 4 fonts maybe
19:26:58 <mizmo> but i think they can be all over the place
19:26:59 <vinzv> what about an option for switching from banners to currently ongoing operations?
19:27:03 <mizmo> it's a fun value add
19:27:12 <elad661> vinzv: such as?
19:27:18 <mizmo> vinzv: we're going to have a key you can press (probably esc maybe f1) to see the full install log
19:27:26 <elad661> we will have the installing: something.... line
19:27:31 <mizmo> vinzv: other than that the progress bar will have the package or operation currently going on top
19:27:36 <mizmo> yeh what elad661 said :)
19:27:44 <elad661> and you can ctrl+alt+f(something) to see debug info
19:27:49 <elad661> anaconda does that already
19:28:30 <vinzv> alright... didn't recognize the "intalling..." area
19:28:33 <mizmo> today we've been discussing in #anaconda about how we are going to layout storage
19:28:42 <elad661> I don't think we need anything more than "installing: something" to be in the UI
19:28:42 <mizmo> we've made some progress :)
19:28:48 <mizmo> if anybody is interested just pop into #anaconda
19:28:59 <finalzone> I have submitted first mockup on sparkleshare, not much but package selection
19:29:01 <vinzv> elad661: absolutely.
19:29:16 <mizmo> vinzv: im thinking since what's currently going on changes, it'll draw your eye's attention more than a static mockup
19:29:25 <mizmo> finalzone: the installer team wants to drop individual package selection
19:29:29 <mizmo> finalzone: i haven't seen your mockup yet though
19:29:33 <mizmo> i dont know if that's what it has in it
19:29:33 <elad661> mizmo: just add the log to the sparkleshare repo for later refernce
19:29:40 <elad661> finalzone: I have seen it
19:29:53 <elad661> and the anaconda team doesn't want such thing...
19:29:57 <elad661> causes many problems
19:30:00 * elad661 brb
19:30:06 <finalzone> really?
19:30:31 <mizmo> yeh
19:30:51 <mizmo> it makes it harder for QA because we can't test all possible package combinations
19:30:58 <mizmo> and it uses pirut, which has a very limited UI
19:31:05 <mizmo> so the idea is give people a base, let them pick a spin
19:31:14 <mizmo> and post-install they can use package kit, which is a much better tool, for adding on individual packages
19:31:59 <mizmo> finalzone: im trying to think of the other reasons they are trying to drop it
19:32:06 <mizmo> finalzone: i know maintaining a UI separate from packagekit is an issue
19:32:34 <finalzone> hard to believe pirut was still alive
19:32:40 <mizmo> finalzone: i think the general idea is having some separation between install and post-install
19:33:01 <ianweller> (sorry to interrupt, but can someone ping me when we hit open floor?)
19:33:05 <mizmo> to do install very well, and leave fine-grained customization to post-install, because fully-installed fedora is a much better environment (you can research apps before installing them at their homepages, etc)
19:33:08 <mizmo> sure ianweller
19:33:10 <ianweller> mizmo: thx
19:33:15 <mizmo> tatica: got all the votes in?
19:33:21 <tatica> yeap
19:33:22 <mizmo> anybody have any questions / ideas about anaconda's redesign?
19:33:27 <ixxvil> mizmo: when do you need the banner stuff?
19:33:28 <mizmo> ill check your mockups out after the meeting finalzone
19:33:29 <tatica> should I send them to mail list and give results here?
19:33:34 <tatica> to make more transparent everything?
19:33:40 <mizmo> ixxvil: the features aligned to fedora 17 so there is no rush at all
19:33:46 <ixxvil> mizmo: ah ok
19:34:00 <mizmo> tatica: results here first and maybe announce to the list after the meeting?
19:34:07 * elad661 is back
19:34:10 <mizmo> #topic Fedora 16 Default Wallpaper Vote results
19:34:13 <mizmo> tatica: you're on :)
19:34:23 <tatica> oka
19:34:35 <tatica> === Nautilus Haks === 11
19:34:41 <tatica> === Floating Castle === 10
19:34:45 <finalzone> mizmo: ok
19:34:51 <tatica> === Nautilus ixxvil === 6
19:34:55 <tatica> those ate the top 3
19:35:06 <mizmo> okay great!
19:35:17 <mizmo> thanks to everyone who submitted proposals!
19:35:30 <tatica> 54 votes total!
19:35:44 <mizmo> tatica: if someone didn't make the top three, at this point, they can continue their designs for supplemental if they'd like, right?
19:35:51 <tatica> sure
19:35:56 <tatica> the idea is not to dismiss ANY draw
19:35:56 <mizmo> cool
19:36:03 <mizmo> and we'll support them, give them critique and feedback
19:36:04 <tatica> is to give priority for alpha development
19:36:08 <tatica> yes
19:36:10 <mizmo> but the main focus is the top 3
19:36:14 <tatica> yes
19:36:21 <mizmo> cool
19:36:40 <tatica> so, now goal is to find more artist to focus on color
19:36:47 <tatica> not sketches
19:36:51 <mizmo> when is the due date for coloring?
19:37:17 <tatica> july 5
19:37:34 <tatica> and after that, a final stage for polish
19:37:45 <tatica> deadline: july 26
19:37:48 <mizmo> #info top 3 wallpapers / Nautilus Hacks (11), Floating Castle (10), Nautilus ixxvil (6)
19:37:57 <mizmo> #info We'll focus on the top 3 wallpapers for coloring. Coloring is due July 5
19:38:01 <tatica> (those are the amount of votes)
19:38:03 <mizmo> #info Final polishing is due July 26
19:38:15 <tatica> not the image number, just for the record
19:38:21 <mizmo> #info If you like a proposal that didn't make top 3, you can continue to work on it and polish it for inclusion in supplemental
19:39:13 <mizmo> cool
19:39:18 <mizmo> anything else on supplemental wallpapers?
19:39:27 <kirkB> what are the iamge numbers, I'm having trouble figuring that out
19:39:28 <mizmo> or default wallpapers?
19:39:38 <tatica> just a sec
19:39:40 <mizmo> kirkB: there's multiple numbers per submission depending
19:39:49 <kirkB> that's OK, just the concept
19:39:59 <kirkB> not sure which Nautilus is which
19:40:00 <tatica> === Nautilus Haks === 11: 40: 41: 43: 44: 48: 50:
19:40:16 <tatica> === Floating Castle === 46: 49:
19:40:21 <mizmo> the one is icebergs is HaKs
19:40:27 <mizmo> the one with the jellyfish is ixxvil
19:40:32 <tatica> === Nautilus ixxvil ===  5:  8:  9:  13:
19:40:37 <kirkB> got it - thanks
19:40:41 <elad661> I have to go... (please make the meeting a bit sooner next time, so I'll be able to stay through the whole thing)
19:40:43 <elad661> bye
19:41:13 <tatica> :D
19:41:23 <mizmo> okay
19:41:28 <mizmo> so two more topics, ABRT and open floor
19:41:37 <mizmo> #topic Ticket #180: ABRT usability assessment
19:41:41 <mizmo> so this may be short & sweet
19:41:54 <kirkB> no word from the team
19:41:58 <mizmo> i've been pestering the ABRT devs to take a look at Kirk's usability assessment so far but i haven't heard from them either
19:41:59 <kirkB> or feedback
19:42:15 <kirkB> I suffered a hard drive crash last week, so it is good I uploaded what I had :)
19:42:24 <mizmo> whoah that really sucks, sorry to hear :( :(
19:42:32 <mizmo> its kind of a sucky situation that they aren't responding, so if you want to move on to a different project in the meantime it's totally understandable
19:42:39 <kirkB> not much lost thanks to backups
19:42:48 <mizmo> you're more than welcome to join us on the anaconda project
19:43:11 <kirkB> do you need more help on it?  I'd like to finish up what I've started unless there's a more pressing need
19:43:16 * tatica send hungs to kirkB
19:43:49 <mizmo> it's up to you! we're good either way, if you want to continue on ABRT please feel free
19:44:00 <kirkB> thankss for the hugs, but I'm not really upset about this.  Getting to do what I enjoy (even if nobody is listneing)  ;)
19:44:06 <mizmo> i just know it can be frustrating sometimes if devs aren't very responsive so i just wanted to make sure its all cool
19:44:10 <mizmo> okay great :)
19:44:12 <mizmo> well ill keep pushing :)
19:44:21 * t2hot (tatica ...'hungs'????)
19:44:30 <tatica> hugs hugs :$
19:44:33 <tatica> my weird language
19:44:34 <mizmo> i think they really want the help, they're probably at a busy point in their dev cycle
19:44:46 <mizmo> okay let's do open floor
19:44:50 <mizmo> #topic open floor
19:44:54 <mizmo> ianweller: open floor
19:44:56 <ianweller> open floor!
19:45:12 <tatica> open floor!
19:45:16 * tatica start to dance!
19:45:17 <ianweller> so i've been working on fedora-business-cards
19:45:32 <ianweller> it's been something i've been wanting to do for a while, make it so that 1) you can have any size you want and 2) it actually uses our new fonts
19:45:40 * t2hot ... wow
19:45:45 <ianweller> i just wanted people to say "yes this works" with the new font choices: http://ianweller.fedorapeople.org/ianweller-front.png
19:46:00 <ianweller> (and here's the back: http://ianweller.fedorapeople.org/ianweller-back.png)
19:46:17 <ianweller> no design change, just font changes (and a huge code restructuring!)
19:47:26 <mizmo> looking at it cold, the irc nick / network line seems hard to digest, the placement of fedoraproject.org a bit odd
19:47:38 <mizmo> freedom / friends / features /first we do all caps in comfortaa
19:47:49 <t2hot> I was thinking the redesigns will bring a visible change apart from font changes
19:47:49 <ianweller> ok
19:47:54 <ianweller> do we still want pipe separators for the foundations?
19:47:56 <mizmo> on www.fpo
19:48:11 <mizmo> on www.fpo we dropped the pipes, we just use a . now
19:48:16 <mizmo> FREEDOM. FEATURES. FRIENDS. FIRST.
19:49:02 <mizmo> my gut tells me, put a blank line between fedoraproject.org and the user-specific details
19:49:16 <mizmo> <info specific to person> <space> <info about the project generally>
19:49:17 <ianweller> should i move GPG key ID up with the user-specific stuff?
19:49:20 <mizmo> yeh
19:49:53 <mizmo> maybe consider some two column field label / field data separation too
19:49:58 <mizmo> EMAIL foo@bar.org
19:50:10 <mizmo> IRC foo (irc.freenode.net)
19:50:18 <mizmo> GPG ID alskjglksaj
19:50:31 <mizmo> with the labels right-aligned, the field data left-aligned
19:51:03 <ianweller> i'll play with that
19:51:47 <ianweller> how it currently has worked is that there's 6 lines you can fill in with whatever you want.
19:51:51 <ianweller> it defaults to what's in that image now.
19:52:15 <ianweller> i wonder if anybody would want anything more than email, irc and GPG key ID
19:52:29 <mizmo> i would put phone and city
19:52:35 <t2hot> +1
19:52:36 <mizmo> so people know the region of the country im from
19:52:50 <mizmo> most people might not put phone, but city / state / country would be useful
19:53:08 <ianweller> how about a 'LOC' label for location?
19:53:21 <ianweller> or not obvious enough
19:54:28 <t2hot> I thought the code runs field=value queries ... you can leave the choice to the user
19:55:21 <ianweller> the code has 6 just generic lines
19:55:27 <ianweller> i can edit them with gibberish if i want
19:55:53 <ianweller> anyway, i'm done, unless people have more feedback :)
19:55:56 <mizmo> why not use 'LOCATION'
19:55:57 <ianweller> i'll come back to the list today or tomorrow with a mockup
19:56:05 <mizmo> i dont think theres any reason to shorten it that much
19:56:09 <mizmo> sounds good
19:56:14 <ianweller> mizmo: i'll look at it, yeah
19:56:17 <mizmo> anybody else for open floor?
19:56:26 <rrix> Yes, I have a comment regarding the voting
19:56:43 <rrix> _
19:56:44 <rrix> \/"/_ All Hail the Beefy Miracle!
19:56:45 <rrix> /_/
19:56:47 <rrix> \ \
19:56:49 <rrix> That is all.
19:56:50 <tatica> LOOOOOOOL
19:57:02 * rrix yields the floor to mizmo
19:57:22 * ianweller adds our cute beefy miracle ascii to beefymiracle.git/sources
19:57:54 <mizmo> okay cool
19:58:00 <mizmo> meeting over then i suppose
19:58:07 <mizmo> time to go put a hot dog on the barbie
19:58:10 <mizmo> #endmeeting