18:10:13 #startmeeting 18:10:13 Meeting started Thu Jul 14 18:10:13 2011 UTC. The chair is mizmo. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 18:10:13 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 18:10:19 #topic roll call 18:10:35 o/ 18:10:43 * elad661 18:10:50 * jsmith lurks 18:11:04 tatica didn't make it i guess 18:11:16 so maybe we should push off the f16 wallpaper decision (again) 18:11:21 but i don't want it to drag on 18:11:28 what do you guys think? 18:11:42 I don't know... 18:11:44 the ultimate deadline is july 26 18:11:49 * t2hot whispers 'tatica went for lunch' 18:11:52 so it's not the end of the world 18:11:59 t2hot, do you know when she left? 18:12:20 mizmo: She was online a couple of hours ago -- probably the crazy sysadmin at her job again, blocking her internet access 18:12:23 my week has been swiss cheese, the ibm repair guy has been in to fix my laptop over and over... i just got it back 18:12:46 maybe we could make a decision on list if she cant be at meetings real time 18:12:49 ill send her an email 18:12:59 maybe since we used to meet on tuesdays, we could start a discussion on-list today 18:13:00 she left about 1:12mins ago 18:13:07 and she could organize it for a decision on tues 18:14:13 sounds ok for me 18:14:28 okay cool 18:14:40 #info we'll start a discussion on the default wallpaper decision on list today 18:14:51 #info tatica will organize the decision announcement on tues 18:15:35 Hello 18:16:08 pcon, are you around? 18:16:32 Sorry I'm late. 18:16:47 Ryan__: it's ok 18:16:56 Thanks. 18:16:59 well 18:17:04 i think it probably goes without saying :) 18:17:13 we should keep advertising the supplemental wallpaper process so folks know they can submit 18:17:22 mizmo: it seems that there were no new supplemental wallpapers submissions at all 18:17:32 elad661, except for yours right :) 18:17:36 i have some, i need to submit them 18:17:47 mizmo: mine was there in the f15 page 18:17:48 sorry I'm late 18:17:52 ill send out a identi-twit now on it 18:17:56 its all good, new meeting time 18:18:00 we started late :) 18:18:01 Can anyone please help me with submitting a supplemental wallpaper? I can't seem to create a Fedora Account System account. 18:18:03 so it doesn't count as new 18:18:39 Ryan__: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/accounts/user/new 18:18:40 Ryan__, can you stick around after the meeting and we'll walk you through it? 18:18:52 have you seen our joining tutorial? 18:18:57 Okay. I will do that. Thanks. What time does this meeting end? 18:19:10 http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Join_the_Design_Team 18:19:27 it won't go on any later than 3, maybe end earlier since we've not a full house today (new meeting time) 18:19:55 Okay. 18:20:13 Well even if we don't get new supplemental wallpapers submitted, we still have a lot to chose from 18:20:19 Did anyone that has seen my "Graphitti" wallpaper like it? 18:20:37 yeh it's true, its no real emergency 18:20:38 This is so I can make changes if I need to. 18:20:51 * t2hot wonders if Ryan__ == Haks??? 18:21:01 Ryan__, let me look it up really quick, since we're on the supplemental wallpapers topic 18:21:17 Okay. I just thought this would be a good time to bring it up. 18:21:54 huhu elad661, Ryan__, mizmo and everyone who is awake 18:21:57 is it this one Ryan__? http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/design-team/attachments/20110709/318f9867/attachment-0003.jpe 18:22:22 would you like a critique? would anybody be opposed to giving ryan a critique right now or do you think it'd better for after the meeting? 18:22:25 Yes, that is one. The other one has two birds on it. 18:22:29 * t2hot waves at gnokii 18:22:47 okay this is the other http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/design-team/attachments/20110709/318f9867/attachment-0002.jpe 18:22:59 Ryan__, which one do you want feedback on? which one do you think is strongest and you'd like to work on the most? 18:23:03 definitely a no on 18:23:16 That's the one. I was talking about the second one when I asked. 18:23:20 remember in critiques we try to always have backup for the points we make 18:23:33 so don't just say 'that's great' or 'that's bad' without giving some rationale and tips for improvement 18:23:37 For supplemental I've always thought it was left up to artistic taste ... what kind of feedback are you looking for Ryan? 18:23:40 Ryan__, okay so let's talk about the second on 18:23:47 Okay. 18:24:22 I am asking for any type of feedback, good or bad. 18:24:46 can you tell us a bit about your work so we can understand where it's coming from? what kind of feeling do you want folks looking at it to have? 18:25:20 today 222 years ago was the attack on the bastille, begin of french revolution important date 18:25:33 For me when looking at a photo I typically want to have an item of focus, it helps the person focus on something and gives the overall picture "a point" as it were. I think in this photo the birds would be natural places to focus, but the colouring de-emphasizes them, almost hiding them. 18:25:37 I took this from one of my parent's cameras. They took it at the Nashville Zoo. I just played around with the extensions in Pinta, and I came up with this. 18:26:04 I didn't like it, I think it would look better without the color change 18:26:10 Ryan__: maybe stick to the original color of the photo 18:26:15 So I find the colouring almost distracting, which I suspect wasn't your intention? 18:26:25 and then modify from there making it look more brighter, softer 18:26:31 oh, tatica is here 18:26:32 so is the meeting started? 18:26:35 yeh, i think the subject is great 18:26:40 I was thinking about taking the same bird photo, and making everything but the two birds black and white. 18:26:42 gnokii: yes 18:26:53 birds in nature--it's a good subject. natural subjects in photography wallpaper tend to be very popular 18:27:06 I'm back! 18:27:07 wallpaper particularly is tricky though 18:27:20 That would bring the birds in to focus. 18:27:23 have you had a chance to look at our wallpaper guidelines Ryan? there are a few tips there that i think might help you out 18:27:28 https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/F16_Artwork/Submissions/Supplemental_Wallpapers 18:27:41 Okay/ 18:27:46 * tatica reading 18:28:02 you usually want a soft focus, which is one of the points 18:28:05 Ryan__, your work would have been outstanding if you had more noise to the picture 18:28:15 another guideline that might help is "As the name suggests, visually, it should settle into the "background" of the activity scene. " 18:28:40 Okay. 18:29:10 I just read the supplemental wallpaper submissions guidelines. 18:29:38 your idea for making the image black and white and only having the birds in color is a good way to guide the viewer's eye to the area of interest 18:29:54 like kirkB mentioned, they are kind of hidden right now with the pinta color effect 18:30:26 I have done that with a few photos, and it gives the photos a cool effect. 18:30:29 there are some other design tools you could use to pull the focus gently towards the birds, and lower the competition the nature/trees background gives them 18:30:48 for example, you could simulate a camera focus with a soft blur effect on the areas the birds are not in 18:31:10 you could add a vignette around the edges of the graphic so it fades into the background a bit (this can be really powerful with b&w photography) 18:31:13 Okay. I think I might try that. 18:31:18 * tatica loves some of the photos on that page... but some can be improove 18:31:57 Ryan__, here is an example of one that applies both design 'tricks' - both the focus and the vignette (and it's b&w!) http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ldbr0xOGu61qcziavo3_500.jpg 18:32:16 Ryan__, you see how the rocks behind them are totally blurred out, but they are in perfect focus? 18:32:22 normally all those rocks would be high contrast and distracting 18:32:42 Okay 18:33:17 That does have a nice effect. 18:33:24 Ryan__, here's a good gimp tutorial that will walk you through a soft focus http://gimpguru.org/tutorials/softportrait/ 18:33:41 (although i think the end result of that tutorial applied it too much ;-) ) 18:33:50 That's what I need. I have GIMP, but I don't know how to do the soft focus though. 18:34:48 I know how to do that in Pinta, but not Gimp. This looks like a good tutorial. Thanks for the link, mizmo! 18:34:54 can I help with something? I'm still lost but I get that you're talking about photography 18:34:57 (right?) 18:35:15 tatica, right 18:35:21 post-processing actually 18:35:35 I am getting feedback on my supplemental wallpaper. 18:35:44 tatica: we are in the middle of the design team meeting, the corrent topic is supplemental wallpapers 18:35:45 Ryan__, it might be better to use gimp just so the rest of us can help you out better 18:36:04 Yes. 18:36:09 oh oh 18:36:21 sorry! I'm still slow by lunch :$ 18:36:37 Ryan__, so if you want to get that blurred out effect for stuff in the distance behind the birds, you could try this technique: http://ffaat.pointclark.net/blog/archives/158-A-Better-Fake-Tilt-Shift-with-the-Gimp.html 18:36:45 Okay 18:36:48 Ryan__, mask the birds out so their focus is unaffected 18:37:08 vignettes are really easy and you can do that automagically using a gimp plugin 18:37:25 Ryan__, have we provided you a good direction here to push your wallpaper further? 18:37:39 Yes, you have. Thank you. 18:37:58 yay :) 18:38:11 if you need more help, I have several videos of tilf 18:38:13 keep us updated on your progress, and please feel welcome to hang out in here and ask questions anytime 18:38:20 Okay. 18:38:21 Ryan__, will catch you up after meeting 18:38:28 tatica has an amazing set of tutorial videos that will be a big help 18:38:32 Thank you 18:38:36 okay 18:38:47 tatica, do we want to make the f16 decision now then? 18:38:57 we'd talked about doing it on the mailing list because we wanted you to be around for it 18:39:05 * tatica takes a deep breath 18:39:06 but since you're here maybe it's better to discuss it now? 18:39:26 yes, let's talk about it and see if we can came up with a decition 18:39:31 okay cool 18:39:34 or at least to know "where we are" now 18:39:36 #topic fedora 16 default wallpaper 18:39:47 ok 18:39:49 i haven't had any time to work on icebergs since last week 18:40:02 I have looked over all of the sketches and think they are all good. 18:40:06 so we have reduce our list from 3 to 2, ad people is really puting a LOT of effort 18:40:22 http://publictest04.fedoraproject.org/artboard/post/list == last updates are here, so I would like you to take a quick look 18:40:22 it looks like haks uploaded a new icebergs one http://publictest04.fedoraproject.org/artboard/post/view/80 18:40:51 I'm trying to help t2hot with his render, another update here http://www.flickr.com/photos/tatadbb/5936596631/ 18:40:55 this is where the icebergs + nautilus left off http://publictest04.fedoraproject.org/artboard/post/view/75 18:40:57 That's very nice 18:41:02 is not at artboard yet since we are missng the trees right now 18:41:14 I mean, the iceberg wallpaper is very nice 18:42:02 so do we want to critique each one a bit maybe? 18:42:06 and see where to go from there? 18:42:11 i definitely have some feedback on the castle one 18:42:17 I would like to thank a LOT to ixxvil and haks first since they put a LOT of effort on draw this ones 18:42:32 and thank a LOT to mizmo and t2hot who have put a lot of time in coloring and give live to them 18:42:48 now... lets do it first on the iceberg and then to the castle 18:43:01 is that ok? (that way I can do a list of suggestions of each one) 18:43:06 sounds good 18:43:10 so for iceberg we have two 18:43:22 #1 http://publictest04.fedoraproject.org/artboard/post/view/80 18:43:31 #2 http://publictest04.fedoraproject.org/artboard/post/view/75 18:43:35 what do we think about #1? 18:43:52 cool 18:43:56 i love the texture of the icebergs, it's a very interesting pattern 18:44:03 i think the brightness in the upper right is maybe a bit too extreme 18:44:11 but that's easily toned down 18:44:20 but where is the connection to verne? 18:44:24 i really like that it is more abstract 18:44:31 elad661, it could be you're 20,000 leagues under the sea, looking up 18:44:35 I would increase the blue saturation :$ 18:44:48 mizmo: yes, but It's better with the submarine 18:44:57 I think to make the image warmer, you should make the colors a little bit darker. 18:45:01 so it doesn't tell as much of a story without the submarine 18:45:21 but... 18:45:22 if i squint, i see mostly black, a ring of blue, then mostly white 18:45:26 we can add some small fish 18:45:27 maybe 70% black 18:45:46 so people know that those are ice pieces 18:45:58 it gives me a bit of a strange feeling because of the light - like i died on the bottom of the ocean and im going to heaven o_O 18:46:05 it's... religious? 18:46:21 no if we add a bit of color 18:46:28 lolz 18:46:29 like some fishs and something like that 18:46:30 icebergs aren't flat on the bottom which makes it harder to identify them 18:46:31 small ones 18:46:38 icebergs can go deep into the water 18:46:41 exactly 18:46:47 what ive been telling since the beginning 18:46:50 it isnt flat 18:46:52 we can add some 3D look making a copy of the layer and moving it a bit 18:46:55 that's easy to solve 18:47:01 btw tatica t2hot did u remember where the icons on default are postioned on ur wallpaper? 18:47:06 that is a weird angle 18:47:18 but adding depth to the icebergs would, i think, drastically change the image composition. 18:47:18 but haks didnt change it and kept it as such so.. 18:47:24 * tatica doesn't use icons, but yes 18:47:32 adding depth would be challenging 18:47:33 and im not sure what it'd look like without seeing it :-/ 18:47:38 not to mention proper lighting 18:47:41 else you wont see depth 18:47:46 well as tatica said, adding the depth is easy in blender 18:47:47 since you're looking straigh p at the iceberg 18:48:05 it is kind of a depressing angle though, like you are in a watery grave 18:48:09 ye 18:48:10 we did this angle in fedora 9 underwater 18:48:19 it's not a deal-breaker, just something to be aware of to work with 18:48:23 if tatica can do it, sweet 18:48:30 so overall 18:48:37 i think we like the pattern the icebergs make 18:48:42 the upper right could be toned down 18:48:45 the icebergs need more depth 18:48:52 we should make it more blue / more color 18:48:56 we should add some small fish maybe 18:48:57 I like the small fishes under the submarine 18:49:07 gnokii, we're on this one right now: http://publictest04.fedoraproject.org/artboard/post/view/80 18:49:11 Yes, the fish idea is a good one. 18:49:25 80 needs some major revamping 18:49:28 right now it's all diagonal lines, the fish would cut that a bit and make more interest 18:49:31 okay 18:49:32 the sunrays are not right 18:49:37 yeh we do have a lot of suggested changes for it 18:49:38 okay 18:49:44 do we want to move on to 75? 18:49:50 +1 75 18:50:14 okay so iceberg #2 is 75 http://publictest04.fedoraproject.org/artboard/post/view/75 18:50:22 gnokii, this is the one you were commenting on right :) 18:50:26 the fish idea was the best 18:50:33 makes it look all the more realistic 18:50:36 yes, can I say something in general? 18:50:40 75 suffers the same problem of having flat icebergs 18:50:41 gnokii, absolutley 18:50:56 yeah but we're showing depth with the side rocks and stuff 18:51:09 maybe we could remove some of the rocks and make it not look like it's sticking to the screen if you know what i mean 18:51:35 maybe more like the rocks point more towards the angle of the sunlight and 18:51:36 on all wallpaper concepts I miss one thing, I mean we stick only with submarine right now, not what Jule Verne really represent 18:51:39 I think adding another submarine, but a tiny one, far off, would give the image a nice effect and more distance. 18:51:59 ixxvil, what do you mean stick to the screen? 18:52:05 right now 18:52:19 Ryan__, yeh more depth would be really good. wallpapers with depth tend to be more pleasant to look at 18:52:28 would be stuck the right word? 18:52:31 the rocks are flat against the screen of the viewer 18:52:38 like a reversed L shape 18:52:47 gnokii, what does verne represent for you? 18:52:55 Yeah, maybe the second submarine could be gray and far-distance. 18:53:17 ixxvil, oh thats not the intention there, they haven't really been shaded properly. the idea i had there (not fully realized!) is that you're in an underwater cave and there's a hole in the roof, you're looking up at the sub 18:53:29 ixxvil, maybe it's some underwater ruins 18:53:31 more u had the same opinion he wrote more as captain nemo, there was 80 days arround the world and stuff like that 18:53:35 let me check it again 18:53:36 sec 18:53:59 gnokii, the wallpaper is based on that story (this one) 18:54:11 gnokii, and the castle one is based on The floating island (another book) 18:54:46 mizmo: oh interesting 18:54:49 wow that would be tough 18:54:51 maybe we could add some drama to the sub+icebergs by having an octopus tentacle 18:54:56 you'regoing to add ruins at the bottom? 18:55:00 maybe the octopus tentacle wrapping around 18:55:05 I have just a single question 18:55:14 * t2hot "how come I've not seen those books? Africa I suppose 18:55:15 we need a wallpaper in 2 weeks... CAN we do all of this? 18:55:15 ixxvil, not sure, it was just an idea there 18:55:24 or will be better to finish what we have already? 18:55:34 tatica, do all of what? 18:55:58 if you need help with ruins i guess t2hot and i can draw some stuff out 18:56:00 let me know 18:56:04 s/me/us/ 18:56:04 the ruins, a second submarine :S 18:56:12 no way second sub, too much of work i think 18:56:13 tatica, it's working with what we already have 18:56:18 tatica, ruins is one way i could polish off the rocks 18:56:21 mizmo: not add drama through an octopus, add better some other Jules Verne stuff 18:56:29 oh, oka 18:56:38 they have to get polished either way 18:56:44 yeap 18:56:56 a second sub, im not sure. but the idea to make the bg deeper is a good one 18:56:57 a ruined ship would be nice there 18:57:11 and maybe add a few colored fish too 18:57:15 ixxvil, oooh a ruined ship on the rocks? 18:57:18 ye 18:57:24 well, if the sub was done in a second layer can be copy/pasted 18:57:27 +1 for ruined ship 18:57:41 that would give them a clearer perspective (because right now their perspective is a mess!) 18:57:47 we could take the jules verne steam ship and modifyit to look like shit at the bottom 18:57:54 Sorry about that, I accidentally closed the tab. 18:58:00 ixxvil, what about a pirate ship 18:58:02 lol, it is 18:58:08 yeh any kinda ship 18:58:22 I would add air, clouds and an airship 18:58:26 the iceberg is weird in yours though:P 18:58:35 but the depth is perfect and everything else 18:58:36 ixxvil, can you do a pencil sketch of a ship ruins for me? 18:58:46 ok sure t2hot will too 18:58:52 t2hot: eh? 18:59:02 tatica, everything in that image is layered 18:59:06 :) 18:59:12 * t2hot I dont get it ixxvil 18:59:26 t2hot: a sketch for a ruined ship 18:59:34 mizmo, then is just a +1 18:59:38 more options dude 18:59:45 you draw, i draw 18:59:46 oh, no problemo ... will need references though 19:00:16 i like the cave idea 19:00:24 i gave tat a reference before for a cave look 19:00:39 from a cave perspective looking at an iceberg, not sure i still have the link 19:01:09 t2hot, here is a CC reference http://www.flickr.com/photos/neilspicys/2348969927/ 19:01:16 I would move the rocks from 75 to an inverted L (I think someone said that before, just going with my huge lag) 19:01:27 mizmo: thats the one you want sketched? 19:02:05 eres another http://www.flickr.com/photos/73109955@N00/228506069/ 19:02:19 ixxvil, I dont think so 19:02:51 http://www.flickr.com/photos/andyg/5727017841/ 19:02:54 almost there 19:02:57 well they are just references ixxvil 19:03:13 ixxvil, but they are all CC-BY so you can feel free to sketch them if you think it's a strong image for a ship wreck 19:03:19 its up to your artistic sensibility 19:03:21 okay so overall 19:03:27 hmm, might borrow elements of that last one 19:03:29 between 80 and 75, what do you folks think is the way to proceed 19:03:34 and add up from the others 19:03:37 ok 19:03:40 I think you should add a glow, as in image 64: http://publictest04.fedoraproject.org/artboard/post/view/64 19:03:44 75 19:04:06 ---a glow to the submarine 19:04:10 mizmo: that one with the submarine otherwise I really question myself where is the connection to Verne 19:04:20 okay so we'll go with 75, and ixxvil and t2hot will sketch out the shipwreck 19:04:35 and i'll work on the rocks positioning and POV and put the shipwreck on them 19:04:42 I like the "TRON" Look on the 75 submarine :$ 19:04:53 oh btw 19:04:54 forgot 19:05:03 mizmo: the sub's propellers need to be rounded more 19:05:06 i think the glow on the older version is too intense 19:05:11 its not a perfect eclipse 19:05:26 I know, but a little less of a glow would be nice 19:05:29 when i sketched it i didnt measure of anything 19:05:29 elipse? 19:05:45 oval i mean 19:05:51 :P 19:05:52 ixxvil, i actually corrected that 19:06:01 ixxvil, but with the bubbles coming out you can't really tell anyway 19:06:11 you're adding more bubles later? 19:06:45 it looks like a sky without bubbles :) 19:07:00 ixxvil, no theres bubbles on top of it right now 19:07:05 wish we had caustics too 19:07:12 can we add mroe shine to the bubble 19:07:25 im not sure 19:07:27 i can play with it and see 19:07:28 like disinguish each buble maybe, atleast have a few bubles 19:07:30 ok 19:07:43 it depends how i can tweak the brushes 19:07:51 i used a bubble brush for whats there now 19:07:56 maybe 8-10 bubbles with a shine and roundedness and the rest could just blur out 19:08:13 ixxvil, ahh i could hand paint 8-10 on top of the blurred out ones that are there now 19:08:15 that might be cool 19:08:23 they shouldn't be too soap bubbly though, that wouldn't be realistic 19:08:25 ill give it a go 19:08:29 know what i did with the ellyifsh right 19:08:34 do we want to move on to the castle? 19:08:36 i gave an outlinefor a few bubbles 19:08:37 ok ok 19:08:38 cool 19:08:47 ixxvil, oh okay ill take a look at the jellyfish sketch as a reference 19:09:04 tatica, t2hot do you guys want to run the critique for the castle? which URLs should we look at? 19:09:23 sure 19:09:23 I'm gonna let tatica decide 19:09:25 http://publictest04.fedoraproject.org/artboard/post/view/81 19:09:48 I will use as reference t2hot renders 19:10:04 I took a couple of minutes today to play with the lights http://www.flickr.com/photos/tatadbb/5936596631/ 19:10:18 but I feel that is the most strong design of the castle 19:10:49 there are several renders right now at http://publictest04.fedoraproject.org/artboard/post/list 19:10:52 so i know the island is meant to have more trees right 19:11:06 but right now it looks a bit glossy which is maybe odd for terrain 19:11:13 yeap, we where just working on that today 19:11:19 the shape is also kind of smooth, i would expect it to be more... craggy? rough? 19:11:20 okay cool 19:11:24 that's what sticks out to me most looking at it 19:11:32 I think the ligher one: http://publictest04.fedoraproject.org/artboard/post/view/64 is better, because the darker one is too dark for me. 19:11:34 mizmo correct there ... 19:11:38 it gives the appearance of being more like a toy than real, but i think if you can add the roughness and the trees it will be a big help 19:11:39 but t2hot is knowing a bit more about licenses since he has some material that can be used but needs to clarify that first 19:11:51 Oops! Wrong URL! 19:12:05 i like the sky in the lighter one 19:12:15 tatica wins 19:12:16 I do too. 19:12:37 but i think the lighter one... the castle is too bright for the time of day maybe? 19:12:39 The sky in the lighter one kind of looks like it is about to be dusk. 19:12:50 in the darker one, it seems like the sky and the lighting on the castle match 19:12:52 mizmo now sees my point too 19:13:02 the castle is definitely bright 19:13:05 so maybe, try a different background on the lighter one, or maybe darken the castle on the brighter one 19:13:09 i thought the coloring wasnt done which is why i didnt comment 19:13:21 i think maybe sunset is the prettiest time of day for such an image right? 19:13:28 yeap, I'm more concern about meshing than colors really 19:13:28 mizmo, darken or brighten??? 19:13:30 so maybe adjusting the castle lighitng is the better approach 19:13:34 because colors can be easily addapted 19:13:38 Yes. I like sunsets for this kind of image. 19:13:40 * tatica taking notes of color suggestions 19:13:43 reflection colors of the sky onto the castle 19:13:46 reflect 19:13:48 yeh exactly 19:13:52 +1 to adjusting castle lighting 19:13:56 tatica, yeh they're definitely easier to adjust than the modeling! 19:13:59 so, sunset light is better but we need to fix the watter color 19:14:00 (the model mesh) 19:14:03