18:00:32 <mizmo> #startmeeting
18:00:32 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Sep  1 18:00:32 2011 UTC.  The chair is mizmo. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
18:00:32 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
18:00:35 <mizmo> #topic roll call
18:00:46 * elad661 is here
18:01:24 * jsmith is lurking
18:01:25 * gnokii too
18:01:39 * MarkDude = lurker
18:01:44 <gnokii> means I am here not lirking
18:03:32 <mizmo> hm 2 ppl worse than last week :(
18:03:35 <mizmo> well
18:03:48 <mizmo> im relaly starting to wonder if we should have meetings at all
18:04:01 <mizmo> and instead just do weekly email updates or something
18:04:16 <mizmo> theres a few topics we can talk about
18:04:21 <mizmo> theres the f16 default artwork
18:04:26 <mizmo> f16 supplemental wallpapers
18:04:29 <mizmo> anaconda redesign
18:04:35 <mizmo> fedora community v2 design
18:05:00 <elad661> btw, I see that some parts (if not all) of the ABRT redesign is already implemented in f16
18:05:03 <mizmo> fudcon design work
18:05:06 <mizmo> ooooh very nice!!
18:05:18 <mizmo> i started up an f16 test box to do grub theming but i haven't seen abrt yet
18:05:29 <mizmo> i was liking the gnome shell updates in f16
18:05:33 <mizmo> this is good news
18:05:40 <mizmo> well
18:05:47 <mizmo> lets talk f16 artwork first cuz its the most schedule-urgent
18:06:08 <elad661> #topic Awesome f16 artwork
18:06:09 <elad661> :)
18:06:17 <mizmo> #topic f16 artwork hehe
18:06:19 <mizmo> Beta wallpapers deadline — Thu 1 September 2011
18:06:24 <mizmo> so i dont have the beta wallpaper quite finished
18:06:31 <gnokii> thats today
18:06:32 <mizmo> after this meeting ends i am going to go full speed ahead on it
18:06:40 <mizmo> and ill email it to msourada tonight for packaging for beta
18:06:47 <mizmo> yep
18:06:55 * elad661 didn't find anything to improve in the alpha background, it's amazing
18:07:23 <mizmo> its not too much work, im gonna finish polishing the rocks and add more icicles and light according to HaKs design http://publictest04.fedoraproject.org/artboard/post/view/87
18:07:30 <mizmo> so i should be able to finish it tonight
18:07:47 <elad661> the first thing I thought when I saw it in the livecd (well, the second, the first was "wow") is that it gives a feeling of depth
18:07:57 * gnokii loading
18:07:57 <mizmo> yay :)
18:08:26 <mizmo> pcon passed the wallpapers over to msourada for packaging so those should be okay
18:08:32 <mizmo> supplemental wallpapers
18:08:49 <elad661> mizmo: It's the best default wallpaper I've ever seen since I started using fedora (F9)
18:08:59 <mizmo> F9 was probably the worst ever hehe
18:09:09 <mizmo> this is another underwater one but i think its done right
18:09:15 <mizmo> Anaconda banners due on Thu 1 September 2011
18:09:23 <gnokii> ha the rocket tails was nice too
18:09:23 <mizmo> so anaconda has an issue where it full-screens the banner
18:09:53 <mizmo> i had started a topic on anaconda-devel to see what we could do about it, but not much movement, so i will probably have spot package up a plain fedora logo without a gradient backgrond for beta and see if anaconda can fix the issue for final
18:10:03 <mizmo> Firstboot banner due on Thu 1 September 2011
18:10:36 <mizmo> since we're going for generic artwork for banners like this, i did something very understated but hopefully slick
18:10:37 <mizmo> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/File:F16_firstboot_sidebar.png
18:10:44 <elad661> Website main slide background is due at GA time
18:11:01 <elad661> (but I'd like to have it before GA, if possible)
18:11:01 <mizmo> GRUB & SysLinux splashes due on Thu 1 September 2011
18:11:17 <mizmo> bcl got the syslinux one i designed to match plymouth in for the live media today; i dont know aobut the dvd status
18:11:44 <mizmo> http://www.flickr.com/photos/mairin/6097970282/in/photostream  it's made to match plymouth
18:11:45 <mizmo> however
18:11:47 <elad661> mizmo: aww... we aren't going to use the submarine in the firstboot sidebar? :(
18:12:03 <mizmo> elad661, no we're going to try to make those non-release specific so we dont always have to update them
18:12:14 <mizmo> i think pretty much only the wallpaper should change every release
18:12:24 <elad661> So we should at least have the logo there
18:12:27 <elad661> or the symbol
18:12:37 <mizmo> theres a fedora logo splash on the first page of firstboot
18:12:47 <mizmo> we don't normally ever put the fedora logo or symbol in the firstboot splash
18:12:47 <t2hot> .fas t2hot
18:12:48 <zodbot> t2hot: twohot 'Onyeibo Oku' <twohotis@gmail.com>
18:12:55 <mizmo> because it gets stretched out / distorted on widescreen monitors
18:12:56 <elad661> hi t2hot
18:13:02 <elad661> mizmo: ok
18:13:10 * t2hot waves at elad661
18:13:15 <mizmo> so the compromise we made a while back was to have a big fedora logo on the front page of firstboot
18:13:20 <mizmo> so that will still be there
18:13:23 <mizmo> so
18:13:30 <mizmo> i showed the syslinux splash to the desktop guys
18:13:50 <mizmo> and they showed me an alternate plymouth screen they had done with jimmac, i wanted to know if you think it could be something we use in f16
18:13:54 <mizmo> i have a youtube video, one sec
18:14:22 <mizmo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-EFfGJSVIY
18:14:28 <mizmo> i made it on my phone so i apologize for the quality
18:14:42 * jsmith watches it quickly
18:14:51 <mizmo> if we switch to that, i could make syslinux and grub match
18:15:00 <jsmith> It's pretty minimal
18:15:06 <jsmith> A bit too minimal for my tastes
18:15:10 <elad661> jsmith++
18:15:12 <mizmo> :(
18:15:15 <mizmo> i really like it
18:15:20 <jsmith> And I'll be honest, I don't like the fact that it takes the Fedora branding out of it
18:15:23 <mizmo> its an interesting staging
18:15:27 <gnokii> jsmith: minimal is in
18:15:29 <mizmo> you start with a black bios screen
18:15:30 <elad661> jsmith++
18:15:49 <mizmo> and transition to minimal system-specific stuff (grub or syslinux, boot), then when the wallpaper appears in plymouth is more of a grand entrance
18:15:51 <elad661> We won't see any fedora logo in the OS itself.
18:15:53 <mizmo> with the fedora logo
18:15:54 <mizmo> yes
18:16:00 <mizmo> theres a fedora logo on the main login box
18:16:04 <jsmith> I think a spash screen should at least tell you what you're waiting on...
18:16:07 <mizmo> bootup is so quick
18:16:17 <jsmith> It's not always that quick for everyone
18:16:20 <mizmo> if you're installing via live media, syslinux says Fedora
18:16:25 <mizmo> in text right across the screen
18:16:33 <mizmo> if you are already installed and booting up, you already know what you have
18:16:42 <mizmo> and when you're ready to log in there is a fedora logo
18:16:48 <elad661> brb
18:16:59 <jsmith> mizmo: Not necessarily -- people install Fedora in computer labs, etc. all the time
18:17:11 <jsmith> mizmo: I don't think it's fair to say all users of Fedora installed it themselves
18:17:21 <mizmo> jsmith, i never watched a computer boot up in a lab when i was in school; computer labs generally start in a booted state
18:17:32 <gnokii> +1
18:17:40 <mizmo> jsmith, even if you didn't install it yourself, you only have to use it once to know its fedora because there is a fedora logo on the log in screen
18:17:59 <jsmith> mizmo: Is that enough, though?
18:18:08 <gnokii> jsmith: just a simple question what u would like to have there?
18:18:15 <jsmith> I still miss the Fedora logo in the desktop itself
18:18:19 <mizmo> if a fedora logo on the login screen isn't sufficient, im not sure how a fedora logo on the startup screen is much of an improvement
18:18:28 <mizmo> we haven't used the fedora logo on the wallpaper since fedora 7
18:18:46 <jsmith> Whether it's warranted or not, some people will say that this is the next step in somebody's secret plan to remove all Fedora logos from our distribution
18:19:03 <jsmith> Not on the wallpaper, on the top or bottom bar of the DE
18:19:12 <mizmo> jsmith, i might be a little pollyanna, but i seriously doubt anyone has a secret plan to do that. there are more interesting and rewarding secret plans in life than that
18:19:26 <mizmo> does android have an android logo in the corner of the screen?
18:19:29 <mizmo> do you know that it's android?
18:19:30 <elad661_laptop> and AFAIK not in the greeter redesign as well
18:19:38 <jsmith> mizmo: I don't think it's anybody's secret plan to do that either, but I know people will assume that's the case
18:19:48 <jsmith> mizmo: I'm not trying to copy Android
18:19:48 <tatica> o0
18:19:55 <mizmo> i would really not like us to design things based on assumptions
18:20:05 <mizmo> it better be in the greeter redesign, i will confirm righ tnow
18:20:17 <jsmith> Thanks...
18:21:40 <mizmo> it is not
18:21:46 <mizmo> that is not acceptable to me
18:22:00 <jsmith> Not acceptable to me either
18:22:12 <finalzone> hello, sorry to be late
18:22:17 <elad661_laptop> No fedora logo anywhere? great.
18:22:30 <elad661_laptop> </sarcasm>
18:23:09 <finalzone> which file illustration is not acceptable?
18:23:15 <jsmith> I hate to be so bold, but if there is a conscious effort to strip out our branding, I want it discussed, publicly
18:23:29 <jsmith> Where we can all debate it, as a community
18:23:34 <elad661_laptop> I knew it's not going to be in the new gdm since halfline released that video, but I thought we would have it at least in the plymouth splash
18:23:41 <jsmith> Now, please don't misunderstand me -- I'm not accusing anyone of doing this
18:23:56 <tatica> why the logo was replaced from plymouth?
18:24:06 <mizmo> i am waiting for a response
18:24:10 <jsmith> I'm just saying that people might get that impression, and I want to be perfectly clear that it's not acceptable to do that sort of thing without public debate
18:24:12 <tatica> oka
18:24:15 <mizmo> jsmith, you might want to choose your words a little more carefully if that is the case
18:25:00 <mizmo> i was shown the black greeter earlier this morning, and told that there was a fedora logo in the gdm greeter, so if wanted to use the black one and make the rest of the bootup splashes match, there would be a fedora logo on the greeter
18:25:11 <mizmo> the person i spoke to must have forgotten aobut the greeter redesign
18:25:21 * tatica personally doesn't like the fact that the wallpaper doesn't have the logo... but she doesn't take decisions
18:25:24 <mizmo> so i asked if the fedora logo could be readded back if we decided to go with the alternate plymouth design
18:25:47 <mizmo> we could design a non-release specific fedora logo wallpaper pack maybe that gets packaged up
18:25:53 <elad661_laptop> mizmo, maybe we could at least put the fedora logo at the bottom right of that throbber splash screen
18:26:26 <mizmo> i am continuing to wait on a response to my question
18:26:28 <elad661_laptop> so that they'll get their new design, but the logo would still be visible
18:26:37 <mizmo> nobody is forcing the design i showed you
18:26:40 <mizmo> i have pointed it out
18:26:43 <mizmo> because i saw it this morning
18:26:48 <mizmo> and i thought it looked very slick and nice
18:26:55 <mizmo> it would also be a lot easier for me to theme grub2 to match it
18:27:01 <mizmo> there is no conspiracy.
18:27:04 <mizmo> let me repeat.
18:27:05 <finalzone> which design? I missed the picture
18:27:07 <mizmo> there is no conspiracy.
18:27:17 <elad661_laptop> mizmo: I know, I know
18:27:33 <tatica> http://www.flickr.com/photos/mairin/6097970282/in/photostream <== if this is the one you're talking about, doesn't look nice without a fedora bubble
18:27:34 <mizmo> finalzone, theres another plymouth design we could use for f16 if we like it, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-EFfGJSVIY
18:27:41 <tatica> or at least -anything- related with fedora
18:28:03 <mizmo> tatica, that is syslinux, it's not possible to put a fedora logo on it, it would get stretched out, it's a 640x480 menu with a lot of text, a limited color palette, and no space for a logo
18:28:13 <tatica> oka
18:28:25 <elad661_laptop> Just a co-incidence, the fedora brand is getting trimmed out just a bit after the talks about GnomeOS...
18:28:45 <tatica> I just look the video
18:28:52 <tatica> is nice, but isn't fedora
18:29:14 <tatica> so if there is any votes, mine would go -1 to use it without the fedora logo/bubble/any_of_those
18:29:17 <elad661_laptop> And the new greeter is awesome, but doesn't even have a space to put the fedora logo in
18:29:21 <jsmith> elad661_laptop: Please, let's not try to assume there is a conspiracy here... I'm certainly doing my best to make things clear.
18:29:22 <finalzone> mizmo, that video reminds Apple OSX bootup
18:29:53 <tatica> if we can replace the loading buttom for some fedora bubble animation, then I'm up +1
18:30:30 <elad661_laptop> jsmith, I assume nothing, I'm just saying what I have in mind, which will probably be the response of more people from around fedora (remember the noise about the logo in the top-bar? it's going to be worse than that)
18:31:15 <tatica> is going to be awful if we keep releasing changes to look more -equal- removing everything what fedora is
18:31:27 <tatica> so, I'm sorry; but I don't like the way decision are being made
18:31:52 <mizmo> why can't we design things to be the best they can be rather than design around politics
18:31:53 <mizmo> seriously
18:31:55 <mizmo> i am so sick of this
18:32:00 <mizmo> i am just so, so, so, so sick of this
18:32:05 <elad661_laptop> mizmo, I agree
18:32:08 <mizmo> does someone else want to lead this team?
18:32:11 <mizmo> who likes politics?
18:32:14 <mizmo> step right on up
18:32:15 <mizmo> go for it
18:32:29 <mizmo> because i care about having a beautiful OS for Fedora
18:32:32 <mizmo> i want fedora to be beautiful
18:32:37 <mizmo> apparently that is not the priority, politics is.
18:32:43 <mizmo> so some politician, please stand up and replace me.
18:32:58 <elad661_laptop> mizmo: I want fedora to be beautiful as well, but I want fedora to be fedora
18:32:59 <tatica> hmmm
18:33:01 <tatica> :X
18:33:13 <gnokii> jsmith: mizmo can we put that topic on the end, and move forward? have a feeling we dont make progress
18:33:22 <elad661_laptop> gnokii++
18:33:46 <mizmo> i have two proposals here, okay
18:33:50 <mizmo> proposal #1
18:34:01 <mizmo> we can keep the current plymouth splash, and keep the current logo-less GDM greeter
18:34:05 <mizmo> this involves the least amount of wor
18:34:09 <mizmo> proposal #2
18:34:17 <mizmo> (i think this one makes more design sense for reasons stated earlier)
18:34:29 <mizmo> we could go with the new plymouth splash, and have the Fedora logo added to the GDM greeter
18:34:42 <jsmith> Can I make a proposal number 3?
18:34:52 <elad661_laptop> mizmo, Adding fedora logo to the gdm greeter might be a bit difficult
18:35:02 <elad661_laptop> but I agree that it is a good solution
18:35:07 <mizmo> if propsal number three involves keeping the current plymouth splash and adding the fedora logo back to plymouth, you can fight that fight, i dont have it in me
18:35:16 <mizmo> but go ahead make your proposal
18:35:33 <jsmith> Proposal number three is to discuss these changes on the desktop list or design list or both, before making a decision
18:35:39 <elad661_laptop> +1
18:35:42 <tatica> +1
18:35:42 <mizmo> i need to know basically today what is going to happen
18:35:46 <mizmo> if we are going to have grub themed at all
18:35:53 <jsmith> Because I think the folks on both of those lists deserve a chance to have their say
18:35:55 <mizmo> if we stick with the current plymouth, i theme grub blue
18:36:03 <jsmith> If a decision has to be made today, then we've already lost :-(
18:36:05 <mizmo> if we go with the new one, i reset the colors in the syslinux splash
18:36:12 <mizmo> and i do grub to match
18:36:24 <mizmo> i wasn't aware that voting by mailing list was really required here
18:36:40 <elad661_laptop> and proposal 4, is while mizmo talks to add the fedora logo to gdm, I would try to add the fedora logo to the bottom right of the new plymouth splash
18:36:52 <mizmo> that would throw off the balance unfortunately elad
18:37:06 <mizmo> it's a center-aligned design. if you added something in a corner it would make it look not quite right
18:37:17 <tatica> bahhh
18:37:27 <tatica> do whatever you want.. at the end, any vote we will make will be changed
18:37:30 * tatica away
18:37:46 <mizmo> im done
18:37:50 <mizmo> you guys go on without me
18:37:53 <mizmo> i have too much work to do
18:37:55 <gnokii> :(
18:38:04 <mizmo> and if i conitnue this discuss i am going to ruin my ability to be able to focus on any of it
18:38:12 <mizmo> the beta wallpaper has got to be done by the end of today
18:38:20 <finalzone> !!
18:38:45 <mizmo> we're going to have to go with proposal #1 because there is no feasible way to have a discussion with enough time that i am not yet again staying up all night to meet deadlines
18:39:04 <elad661_laptop> ok, I have a new idea, change the schedule.
18:39:17 <elad661_laptop> jsmith: I think this is improtant and we should delay the release
18:39:18 <mizmo> we cant make beta then
18:39:27 <mizmo> the release is *never* delayed for artwork, ever, ever, ever
18:39:28 <mizmo> look at f15
18:39:39 <elad661_laptop> until this is resolved like it should be
18:39:42 <jsmith> mizmo: If we have to delay the release, let's delay the release
18:39:59 <elad661_laptop> jsmith: Delay the release, please
18:39:59 <mizmo> i just want f16 to look nice and polished
18:40:02 <mizmo> i do not want political warfare
18:40:08 <jsmith> I'd rather delay the release than rush this decision
18:40:26 <jsmith> I'm not trying to play politics, I'm just trying to make sure we all, as a group, come to some sort of consensus
18:40:30 <elad661_laptop> That would show fedora is about community, and it would give mizmo enough time to sleep and to polish the design
18:40:32 <mizmo> why is it that design decisions have to be debated in mailing list flamewars, but coding decisions dont have to take place in the public square?
18:40:36 <mizmo> i just don't understand
18:40:57 <elad661_laptop> mizmo, This is not just a design thing
18:41:04 <elad661_laptop> It's a marketing thing
18:41:04 <mizmo> no no
18:41:10 <mizmo> right now how the fedora logo is treated in the OS
18:41:14 <mizmo> it "just happens"
18:41:17 <mizmo> there is no explicit decision
18:41:20 <mizmo> whatever happens, happens
18:41:22 <mizmo> there is no process
18:41:26 <mizmo> there is no public debate
18:41:29 <elad661_laptop> There should be
18:41:33 <mizmo> why is it, that when i want to have it explicitly designed
18:41:50 <mizmo> it has to turn into a big arduous public 'voting' process rather than just be a bit of polish and explicit decision making
18:41:53 <mizmo> i just dont understand
18:41:57 <gnokii> elad661_laptop: discussions about design always becomes flames, that hurts designers!
18:42:10 <mizmo> gnokii, +10000
18:42:30 <tatica> well, welcome to communities
18:42:40 <elad661_laptop> mizmo, because, in this case, fedora is not like gnome. fedora is first of all a community, and only after that an OS
18:42:42 <tatica> leaders aren't suposed to be the best, are just suposed to make everything work
18:42:53 <gnokii> mizmo I understand u but I understand also jsmith so let take the other topics ans take a few minutes more to understand the positions about this topic
18:42:53 <tatica> and will always have to take the flames on their shoulders
18:43:00 <tatica> mizmo, you should already know this
18:43:01 <mizmo> if my job is to take flames im done
18:43:03 <mizmo> bye
18:43:31 <gnokii> tatica: u never can take all flames u burn out then
18:43:34 <tatica> is reality, that's how this works, sry if the leadership side isn't that beautiful as some think
18:43:48 <tatica> gnokii, yes, that's why you need to train more leaders
18:43:52 <tatica> community is about movement
18:44:05 * elad661_laptop has a huge lag, damn.
18:44:07 <tatica> contribution, learning
18:44:16 <tatica> I might be wrong
18:44:28 <tatica> but this is what experience has teach me for the past 8 years
18:45:00 <tatica> leaders must listen people, not take decisions without consulting... even so, sometimes a leader must not even take a decision, but encourage their group to do it
18:45:07 <tatica> leaders are just a gear, not the machinery
18:45:38 <finalzone> tatica is right, leadership requires a lot of responsibility
18:45:45 <tatica> and nobody, noone is indispensable
18:46:14 <tatica> is a lonely path of problems, chaos... but is also a path where you can change world
18:46:34 <elad661_laptop> I just hate it when mizmo is annoyed like this. Sadly, I don't think the team can work without her.
18:46:38 <tatica> mizmo need to calm down, breath and -listen-...
18:47:04 <tatica> if she need answers, then she doesn't need to wait until last minute to push them
18:47:06 <elad661_laptop> tatica, I don't want to change the world, I just want to make sure fedora stays fedora
18:47:21 <finalzone> let me clarify this, the issue is about Grub2 screen and plymouth?
18:47:24 <tatica> elad661_laptop, we are here to change the world, using fedora as our tool
18:47:34 <tatica> finalzone, problem is that want to remove logos from everything
18:47:39 <elad661_laptop> because right now it seems that our brand is getting trimmed out, and we need it more than ever
18:47:48 <tatica> maybe political choices, but at the end... -someone- has to fight that
18:47:59 <tatica> mizmo is leader, she needs to do it and she knows it
18:48:14 <finalzone> basically making fedora as plain OS without branding?
18:48:18 <tatica> we might not be that understandable as we could be
18:48:20 <tatica> finalzone, yes
18:48:28 <elad661_laptop> jsmith, what do we have to do in order to delay the release?
18:48:31 <tatica> but she's also not leaving to much space to argue
18:48:49 <tatica> my coins are on the table... I'm out for a coffee, bbl
18:48:59 <elad661_laptop> finalzone, desktop guys made a new plymouth splash, without a logo
18:49:03 <elad661_laptop> a simple throbber
18:49:14 <elad661_laptop> and firstboot sidebar won't have the logo
18:49:22 <elad661_laptop> cause it gets strechted
18:49:39 <elad661_laptop> nor it would have the submarine, because it's release specific
18:49:46 <finalzone> hmm, I saw that throbber before. Apple already did that with their OSX
18:49:49 <elad661_laptop> and, finally, the new GDM dosen't leave space for the fedora logo
18:50:12 <elad661_laptop> finalzone, gnome designers (=desktop guys) seems to like apple's design
18:51:14 <finalzone> that probably explains why some users think Gnome as OSX copycats
18:51:23 <elad661_laptop> we can
18:51:23 <elad661_laptop> we can't stay quiet about this
18:51:42 <rrix> http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/design-team/2011-April/004263.html Deja Vu... :\
18:52:00 <elad661_laptop> rrix, yes, but worse this time
18:52:03 * tatica wont... but I know that will disturb some people
18:52:14 <rrix> elad661_laptop: Well, who's gonna stand up to them?
18:52:16 <elad661_laptop> We can
18:52:20 <tatica> rrix, hey you :)
18:52:25 <rrix> hola tatica :)
18:52:28 <tatica> :O
18:52:28 <elad661_laptop> damn laptop keyboard
18:52:35 <tatica> when did you learn spanish!?
18:52:38 <elad661_laptop> We can
18:52:41 <elad661_laptop> dam
18:52:47 <elad661_laptop> who put the enter there?
18:52:49 <rrix> tatica: I live in Arizona, I can at least say hi ;)
18:53:01 <tatica> :O
18:53:09 <tatica> I <3 u
18:53:14 <rrix> :)
18:53:14 <tatica> now, really need a coffe now
18:53:15 <tatica> brb
18:54:06 <elad661_laptop> We can't stay silent, we can't ignore this, we can't accept this.
18:54:12 <elad661_laptop> I mean it
18:54:19 <finalzone> does some people currently associate blue colour with fedora?
18:54:24 <elad661_laptop> yes
18:54:40 <finalzone> good sign
18:54:49 <rrix> Who here's got the guts to fight some of the most stubborn open source developers?
18:54:57 <rrix> The guts and the whuffie
18:55:35 <mizmo> #endmeeting