16:01:29 #startmeeting 16:01:29 Meeting started Tue Oct 6 16:01:29 2015 UTC. The chair is mizmo. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 16:01:29 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 16:01:33 #topic roll call 16:01:35 who is here? 16:01:53 well, me 16:02:28 not sure if the roll call concerns me but i'm here as well, after the kind invitation from mleonova to settle the liveusb-creator icons :) 16:03:17 hm is nobody else here? 16:04:15 hii! 16:04:17 I am here 16:04:21 :) 16:05:40 hey riecatnor 16:05:55 hiya mizmo! 16:05:56 so we had a lot of high level stuff to discuss in addition to the usual ticket stuff 16:06:19 since mbriza is here maybe we'll talk about ticket 360 first, then move onto talking about our meeting with the fedora council and a new meeting time? 16:06:30 sounds good 16:06:37 agree 16:06:40 ooh riecatnor can you fill this out? http://whenisgood.net/hype2fi 16:07:04 #topic ticket 360 16:07:14 mbriza, have you seen mleonova's new mockups from today? 16:07:27 #link https://fedorahosted.org/design-team/ticket/360 16:07:27 meetbot.meeting.item.link -- duffy linked to more information in a meeting in #fedora-design: "https://fedorahosted.org/design-team/ticket/360" 16:07:43 of course, they're great 16:08:09 i can't really decide if i like the blue ones better over the gray ones or vice versa 16:08:43 I really like the grey with the pattern 16:08:52 mizmo: I filed it out as full availability because I have a part time job coming up, but I will be making the schedule, so I can just choose one of these days as I day I will be home and can attend 16:09:04 riecatnor, oh okay sweet!! 16:09:09 o/ 16:09:23 mbriza, i think they're both great choices, if mleonova favors the grey maybe it's the one to go with 16:09:28 hey tatica 16:09:38 mizmo, mleonova: yeah i think so too 16:10:13 mbriza, mizmo awesome, I'll prepare those tomorrow then, what size do you want, mbriza? 16:10:56 256x256? 16:11:15 mleonova: 256 will be okay - or just tell me how you generate them and i'll do it myself - i think only the Mac port won't be able to use SVGs 16:12:02 I usually just export pngs from Inkscape 16:12:38 ok good, i didn't manage to get the same results when i viewed them in gwenview, so i was concerned - thanks 16:12:57 cool are we good on 360 then? 16:13:09 mizmo, yeah, guess so 16:13:10 think so :) 16:13:19 cool! 16:13:23 so next i wanna talk about our meeting time 16:13:26 mizmo: I have one ticket to talk about 16:13:30 but it can wait til after 16:13:35 okie doke! 16:13:38 #topic meeting time 16:13:55 .hello decause 16:13:56 decause: decause 'Remy DeCausemaker' 16:14:19 so it seems so far the best meeting time is going to be 9 AM ET (i think that's 1 pm UTC?) on Wednesdays 16:14:30 but ryanlerch hasn't gotten a chance to respond to the whenisgood 16:14:38 so i think we should do one more meeting at this time before moving the meeting time 16:14:41 does that seem fair? 16:14:52 that works for me 16:14:58 cool 16:15:03 mizmo, I like the proposed time =) 16:15:06 im hoping he can make that time but i might be too late for him 16:15:21 we can get the most number of people at that time slot tho 16:15:22 okay 16:15:29 let's talk about your ticket riecatnor :) what's the ticket 3? 16:15:32 er ticket # even lol 16:15:43 ticket 403 16:16:21 #topic ticket 403 16:16:39 #link https://fedorahosted.org/design-team/ticket/403 16:16:39 meetbot.meeting.item.link -- duffy linked to more information in a meeting in #fedora-design: "https://fedorahosted.org/design-team/ticket/403" 16:16:51 ah okay cool these are FAS icons for FAS 3 16:17:03 riecatnor, do you know what size they're going to be displayed at in the UI? 16:17:05 mizmo: yep, this is the first round 16:17:24 riecatnor, i ask because they're large in the preview, you'll want to make sure to have versions snapped to the pixel grid for small display if he needs them small 16:17:45 I am not sure, that is a question I can ask on the ticket 16:17:52 i personally love all the different versions, maybe a slight preference for the 1st row and the 4th row 16:17:59 but its hard to understand what they'll look like in context 16:18:08 yeah, the link was working before 16:18:13 it looks like its down now 16:18:15 ahh okay 16:18:34 maybe another thing to bring up in the ticket 16:18:37 i could also ask for a screenshot if it’s going to be down for a while 16:18:46 when its back up maybe snag some screenshots and try to gimp the icons in? 16:18:49 yeh that works too 16:18:50 :) 16:18:55 :{ 16:18:56 :P 16:18:59 mleonova, what do you think? 16:19:04 so, I also like the 4th row 16:19:09 because- Fedora! 16:19:22 i like the last row the most 16:19:26 =) 16:19:33 I am open to suggestions on how to improve them 16:19:49 i think i like the group one better with the middle person's shoulders drawn in 16:20:00 i think its good that they are non-gendered 16:20:17 i wonder if it'd work to draw the shoulders only partway down to suggest the separation without as hard a line 16:20:22 1 and 4 as well here 16:20:23 like have the line taper off mid way (does that make sense?) 16:20:43 yeah, I can try the part way line and a tapered line 16:20:52 non-gendered is what I was going for :D 16:21:21 so the original ticket talks about a platform icon too - not sure what that means 16:21:40 it makes sense the icon on the far left would be the profile icon, and one of the two on the right would be the team icon 16:22:17 mizmo: agreed 16:22:34 not sure about the platform icon, i can also ask for more info on that 16:22:50 okay cool 16:22:57 yeh i am still thinking, but im not sure what it could mean 16:23:02 okay cool 16:23:14 thanks for the input everybody :) 16:23:15 does anybody have any more feedback for riecatnor on ticket 403? 16:23:41 mizmo, would be nice to see them in use 16:23:48 +1 16:24:15 okay cool 16:24:25 i wanna make a quick public service announcement next 16:24:31 then we'll talk about our presentation to the fedora council 16:24:36 #topic nightly gimp and inkscape builds!! 16:24:42 https://blogs.gnome.org/alexl/2015/10/06/nightly-devel-builds-using-xdg-app/ 16:24:49 alex larsson is now doing nightly builds of inkscape and gimp 16:25:08 so if you want to try the very latest development version of either or both apps, test them out and help the upstream developers, it should be pretty easy to do now 16:25:30 i haven't gone thru the instructions yet but am going to try it today and maybe write a design team / fedora specific tutorial if needed 16:25:51 #topic design team preso to council 16:26:03 okay so matthew miller asked a week or so ago if we wanted to make a presentation to the fedora council about our team 16:26:11 he had some specific questions ,lemme look them up and repaste here 16:26:23 - the current state of the subproject 16:26:23 - future plans 16:26:23 - things the team needs from the rest of the project 16:26:23 - any blockers we can help unblock 16:26:23 - big resource requests? 16:26:44 does anybody have ideas along these lines of what we should present? 16:26:57 trac.ticket.update -- riecatnor updated a ticket on the Design Team trac instance https://fedorahosted.org/design-team/ticket/403 16:27:41 i thikn our current state is okay; when im out on leave for 3 months or so (will probably be nov / december - february / march) there might be a bit of chaos if we dont get on the new meeting schedule ahead of time 16:28:02 agreed, I am glad we are taking care of that now 16:28:04 we had a design fad this past january and i think that helped a lot; we cleaned out our ticket queue and came up with a new system for it, and it's working pretty well now i think 16:28:17 I was going to suggest for resource requests another FAD 16:28:40 good idea :) i think they are good for recruiting. it'd be neat to colocate with someplace where we could recruit new folks to join too 16:28:47 maybe at a libre graphics meeting or a university with a design program 16:28:57 definitely 16:29:28 also, something we could do to mitigate losses from your absence.. so doing it in march or later in the year might be good 16:30:09 riecatnor, mizmo sorry to ask, but what's FAD?) 16:30:16 Fedora Activity Day :) 16:30:21 ooohh 16:30:24 okay) 16:30:43 oh yeh 16:30:47 it's kind of like a mini conference 16:30:51 it is usually a sub project that gets together physically/remotely to get a bunch of stuff done 16:31:02 right mizmo? 16:31:05 exactly 16:31:32 what we did at the january 2015 one was basically clean out our ticket queue and come up with new processes for the ticket system - we also set up these meetings then as well 16:31:55 for future plans, im not sure 16:32:07 i think mleonova's project to clean up our swag assets is a good one to mention there 16:32:37 yeah, I'm still on a quest of figuring out the best place for them 16:32:49 fedora hubs is a good one too to mention i think 16:33:03 tatica, are there any future design projects or goals on your side you think we should mention? 16:33:04 I've installed sparkleshare, but now I'm thinking it's not that easily accessible 16:33:07 it would be nice to do some badges work, last time I did have a chance to mentor a new person, but in general the badges queue is ridiculous 16:33:17 badges FAD! 16:33:41 btw riecatnor did you see the new ones I made? 16:33:45 mizmo, not currently, still getting back on track :) 16:33:53 i think badges are a good way for new folks to get involved too because they really well-scoped in terms of the design work and the guidelines are so easy to follow 16:34:01 mizmo, on my time off fedora decided to make a huge restructuration, so I'm a newbie :) 16:34:08 so i think if we did a badge specific design FAD it would be a very good one to go along with recruiting new folks 16:34:13 tatica, it's all good :) 16:34:25 ah yes mleonova, was planning to talk to you about it now if you were around :) 16:34:41 oh wow, yeah that would be cool 16:34:41 do we have any blockers holding us up? 16:34:55 i know one that comes up a lot is getting asked to design materials but not being given the content 16:35:01 so now we are talking about two separate FADs, mizmo? 16:35:15 riecatnor, it could just be one fad, a design fad that focuses on badges specifically 16:35:23 badges + new recruits 16:35:46 gotcha, very cool :) can’t wait to teach newbies the way of the badges 16:36:03 the way of the badger and panda too :) 16:36:20 I actually restructured the new ticket field for badges, and so far it has helped a LOT 16:36:26 threebean and I worked on that 16:36:54 riecatnor, sounds good- more details? we could include it in the preso 16:37:06 https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-badges/newticket 16:37:06 meetbot.meeting.item.link -- riecatnor linked to more information in a meeting in #fedora-design: "https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-badges/newticket" 16:37:34 basically, we decided a general who, what, why, where, when & how would help a lot 16:37:40 oh nice 16:38:19 and you've been getting new tickets using this template and getting better data so far? 16:38:24 this is one of the newest tickets submitted 16:38:26 https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-badges/ticket/406 16:38:26 meetbot.meeting.item.link -- riecatnor linked to more information in a meeting in #fedora-design: "https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-badges/ticket/406" 16:38:29 yes, definitely! 16:38:44 perfect :) 16:39:16 any annoyances / frustrations / things that could be better on the whole being a fedora design team member? 16:39:56 i think maybe our bootstrapping new contributors gets complicated 16:40:04 I think the biggest issue for me is recruiting, and retention 16:40:14 I mostly work on badges, and most people fall off 16:40:15 like setting up a FAS account, getting an SSH key, getting sparkleshare hooked up, tha tkind of thing 16:40:22 yep 16:40:24 oh, it would be nice to have a tutorial for that 16:40:28 why are we losing folks? 16:40:34 too much time committment? 16:40:39 busy schedules it seems 16:40:48 i know a few folks have not been participating as much because of new jobs 16:41:26 what do you think about recruiting riecatnor 16:41:46 maybe we should have more events (even if they are virtual) like office hours or something new folks can show up to 16:41:57 we had two new recruits post on the list and i invited them to this meeting 16:42:03 but i dont know if they were familiar with irc or needed help (they didn't ask) 16:42:16 i guess hubs would help with that when it's ready 16:42:30 yeah IRC can be daunting, especially when its quiet on here for days at a time 16:44:10 im trying to think of any blockers or annoyances that have hit me recently with design stuff 16:44:19 i mean i know they exist :) 16:44:27 the no-content one is a big one 16:44:30 i guess another one! 16:44:36 and maybe this is me being a big old hippie 16:44:45 but sometimes the swag we're asked to do - i wonder how useful it is 16:45:13 like, giving out t-shirts for every single conference - does it make sense to do? what's the end impact? where do the shirts end up? that kind of stuff 16:45:19 sometimes we get asked to do weirder things tho 16:45:37 and i just wonder, is there any oversight over the volume of swag we give out and whether it's environmentally sound 16:46:03 but there have definitely been times when ive tried to talk folks out of swag production or even limiting it (eg, only newbies get the shirt or something) 16:46:12 mizmo, that only happens in some regions 16:46:20 here tshirts are produced only once a year 16:46:25 I think something that seems like it can be an issue with badges, is people want a quick turnover, or dont give you relevant info til the last minute. That can be frustrating, and it feels like design is not valued as much as other things.. I also think a big part of bringing users to fedora(or any platform) is good design. I think it needs to be valued more.. perhaps more people working on it full time 16:46:27 tatica, NA is definitely oneo fthem :) 16:46:31 yup 16:46:34 mizmo, T-shirts are the #1 swag according to people I did interviews with 16:47:02 mleonova, oh i get that - and i saw your blog post. i wonder though is that swag for people not using fedora yet but are interested, or is it for existing contributors? 16:47:04 now, having 100 stickers would be a con 16:47:16 maybe stick with a group of "official" stickers would be nice 16:47:19 i mean, i'm odd bc i've been involved in fedora for over 10 years, but i literally have over 30 fedora t-shirts 16:47:23 less paper/plastic 16:47:32 mizmo, Jiri says it's mostly for contributors if I remember correctly 16:48:26 btw unrelated, Jiri just made a post about #393 and the book is out https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-3BS70ODBems/VhPd1WIneRI/AAAAAAAAEHo/SIF-28SzW04/s870-no/11224288_10206597676134664_1988108589250032943_o.jpg 16:48:28 mleonova, ah see the population of contributors is smaller. so to me it doesnt make sense to give contributors new t-shirts every year / every event, they already have plenty 16:48:37 oooh it came out great!!! 16:49:19 riecatnor, i think the insufficient info / insufficient time is a constant struggle definitely worth mentioning 16:49:20 very nice booklet :) 16:49:37 mizmo, yeah, but the comemmorative shirts are still nice =) 16:49:50 I would give my vote to keep the t-shirts 16:50:06 tatica, oh im not suggesting not doing t-shirts anymore, just maybe a bit more oversight about how many are produced? 16:50:14 riecatnor, thanks, can't wait to see it not only on the pic! 16:50:20 mizmo, thing is that each event will always want their own tchirt 16:50:34 *tshirt, it's like the sourvenir they get 16:50:41 now 16:50:50 if we could make a single tshirt each year, that would be another story 16:50:57 + FOSS doesn't feed its contributors but its dresses them, no? 16:50:59 * pingou runs 16:50:59 tatica, something we've talked about in the past was having a generic very nice / very high quality shirt, and giving folks specially designed pins they can wear on the shirt for the events they go to (kind of like real life badges) 16:51:05 pingou, lol 16:51:14 mizmo, exactly 16:51:34 mizmo, however, pins, even if they are nice, they make holes on the tshirt and gets a bit damaged 16:51:36 because sometimes, maybe it's budget concerns i don't know - the shirts get printed out on very low quality shirts, and the ink runs or is sticky and just not very good 16:51:43 maybe just the badge with the conference/name woud be enough 16:51:50 tatica, well im thinking maybe not even a t shirt but a thick woven polo that wouldn't get so damaged 16:52:02 and you could waer the pins on your bookbag or laptop bag or other places instead if you wanted 16:52:34 mizmo, I'm +1 to the one tshirt, however, contributors might not think as we do 16:52:48 if im the only one worried about too many shirts tho, we don thave to bring it up to the council 16:53:00 its just one of those things.... ethically i question sometimes the swag we get asked to do 16:53:03 as i said, tshirts have become the brand and most used sourvenir from each event and they like to have their own fudcon logo adaptations 16:53:23 mizmo, maybe we could develop the idea with some designs before bringing the topic to council 16:53:31 and show some numbers with it 16:53:40 i guess another idea is making sure all events allow the attendees to opt out of the shirts 16:53:54 so we don't always order # of shirts = # of attendees 16:53:54 how much does it cost to produce XX tshirts at usa and ship them, and how much does it cost to make XX loads of differents tshirts all around the world 16:54:11 mizmo, yeah, that's a good one! 16:54:13 oh its definitely almost always cheaper to produce locally 16:54:27 unless you have an american who can check a box of shirts on the plane who is attending (nobody wants to do this) 16:54:59 tatica, you think developing the pin idea more? 16:55:02 i mean, pins last longer than shirts 16:55:11 i dont think they cost as much, i think pins are cheaper 16:55:20 and im talking about nice pins, not the awful large round ones 16:55:24 mizmo, not with 90% humidity jejeje, they last barely a year 16:56:38 this is a weird example, but this is where i got the idea for the pins 16:56:39 http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTA5Nlg4OTQ=/z/i3cAAOSw9r1WDVtw/$_57.JPG 16:56:45 I think the issue with the polo, is that some people will wear it out, or not bring it along or whatnot. A nice part about having a tshirt for a conference is having everyone wear it at the conference.. it brings a sense of unity I think 16:56:47 disney world gives out these different pins (not all of these are disney but) 16:56:56 ah, metallic pins you say 16:57:01 people really get into collecting and trading them 16:57:14 riecatnor, +1 16:57:15 they last a long time too 16:57:20 I would LOVE a Fedora pin like that 16:57:38 ah i never wear the conference shirt at the conference - had a bad experience not washing a t shirt before hand (rash :( ) so i always wash first 16:57:46 to be honest, i still think the tshirts are the image of each conference and will be srsly hard to remove them (or minimize them) 16:58:05 we could also suggest something like 16:58:07 having so many tshirts make us wear a different tshirt each day and spread fedora more 16:58:10 only t-shirts for flock and fudcons 16:58:15 that's 3 events a year i think? 16:58:20 I understand all the environmental argument 16:58:24 mizmo, +1 16:58:28 mizmo, no, 2 flocks and 4 fudcons 16:58:44 well no, now emea and na don't have fudcons, right? 16:58:46 tatica, flock is only once a year, every other year in north america every other year in europe 16:58:48 Just an observer, but I like the idea of buttons especially - to me, I can wear a badge around on a bag / shirt / hat / whatever every day, but the shirt doesn't get as much usage. 16:59:03 then yes, a flock and 2 fudcons 16:59:19 yeh thats the thing about the pins is that they can be worn more frequently than shirts, and they look kind of neat / are unique so people are more likely to ask 16:59:37 we could also have the pins done up like fedora badges 16:59:43 because each event has a fedora badge usually right? 16:59:59 so we could use the same artwork for both and lighten the load maybe 17:00:03 Yeah. I personally think pins would make a nice alternative for smaller events / booths. And mizmo, I believe so, I haven't seen a FUDCon or Flock without a badge yet. 17:00:16 jflory7, +1 17:00:17 well 17:00:22 maybe its an idea worth mocking up for the council 17:00:56 maybe not for this report, but would it be fair to mention maybe we have some concerns about the impact of so much swag without much oversight? (although it will definitely be better after mleonova's project is completed) 17:00:59 I think for Flock / FUDCon might not make much sense, but I think badges would be great for events where Fedora isn't the spotlight attraction, e.g. a misc. Linux conference 17:01:38 i guess the other thing is 17:01:40 I have no idea how things work now at misc. conferences, but this is just my observation, thought I would just share my thoughts as an outsider. :) 17:01:58 i feel like theres an absence of some high level thought about our ongoing swag offerings if that makes sense 17:02:00 like strategically 17:02:05 it seems very ad-hoc 17:02:19 if it were less ad-hoc i think i'd personally be less concerned about so many t-shirts 17:02:40 but sometimes i think it's just an event organizer asking for them bc other events have them, even though maybe it's not the right call for that event 17:02:48 but maybe this is too much of a tangent :) 17:02:50 okay 17:02:57 im going to summarize this discussion for the mailing list 17:03:03 since it affects a lot of us who werent able to come today 17:03:13 and maybe we can work out a good outline for our presentation 17:03:26 we're at an hour now, so i'm gonna do a quick open floor and let you go :) 17:03:28 #topic open floor 17:03:35 anything we didn't cover you wanted looked at today? 17:03:38 mizmo, I'm just concerned that an issue that only happens in a region will affect others like LATAM 17:03:51 talking about a ton of tshirts just doesn't apply to our region 17:04:03 in latam the production is less than 50 yearly 17:04:05 tatica, well thats why i think there should be a strategy around it. eg if its not a problem in a particular region, no change there 17:04:33 mizmo, we have seen a drop-down on fundings for our region already 17:04:39 i just don't want this to turn on another one 17:04:50 tatica, do you know why the funding has been dropped lower? 17:05:14 I like the idea of having a streamlined swag process. I didn’t know where we were printing or what format to make my file. though i realize that is pretty standard, i still had to run around at the last minute with ryanlerch helping me format because I had not heard a response 17:05:14 mizmo, the answer I always get is "latam doesn't do enough, so we should spend less" 17:05:24 for the tshirt^ 17:05:29 last thing I head is that they want to close fudcon for latam and just do fads 17:06:01 riecatnor, mleonova's project is going to involve having some standard designs available print-ready so that may help 17:06:22 ok.. also I remember that their were a bunch of issues with the booklet for flock 17:06:22 riecatnor, so at least a model to follow for the custom event ones like flock roc 17:06:32 that was not made a priority to get that info, or set it up 17:06:39 and that made the booklet look really bad 17:07:11 riecatnor, so maybe that'd be one of the blockers that affects us a lot we should mention - folks want us to design "stuff" but don't give us specs or printer contacts to know what to do 17:07:46 yeah, and then saying, oh well its fine that it looks messed up when they didnt get us info is infuriating 17:07:49 riecatnor, the main issues with the flock rochester book involved the format/printing right? the content was prepared in advance and not an issue? or was that an issue too? 17:08:07 the content was prepared in advance, but they did not have a printer til the last minute 17:08:40 okay i think this is definitely worth bringing up to the council as a blocker 17:08:42 ive hit it too 17:08:45 it needs to be put to them like this- would you accept an inferior piece of code just because? when it was possible to make it perfect? then why ask designers to do that 17:08:58 sometimes you're a designer in one region designing for another region and you hvae no idea of the specs 17:09:02 okay i gotta run 17:09:04 right 17:09:07 i'm going to post a summary to the list 17:09:13 we can continue convo there too of course :) 17:09:47 okay gonna end the meeting, sorry guys, i gotta eat for two lol :) 17:09:54 * mizmo notes this meeting is during my normal lunch time ;-) 17:09:57 #endmeeting