19:06:34 <decause> #startmeeting Fedora-Hubs - 05/21/15
19:06:34 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu May 21 19:06:34 2015 UTC.  The chair is decause. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
19:06:34 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
19:06:37 <decause> #chair oddshocks
19:06:37 <zodbot> Current chairs: decause oddshocks
19:06:49 <mizmo__> whats the pirate pad
19:06:52 <decause> #link http://piratepad.net/HwJw18vedm
19:06:55 <mizmo__> tanks!
19:07:02 <decause> #topic RollCall
19:07:05 <decause> .hello decause
19:07:06 <zodbot> decause: decause 'None' <decause@redhat.com>
19:07:17 <sgallagh> .hello sgallagh
19:07:18 <zodbot> sgallagh: sgallagh 'Stephen Gallagher' <sgallagh@redhat.com>
19:07:39 <mizmo__> https://raw.githubusercontent.com/fedoradesign/fedora-hubs/master/meta/diagram-1.png
19:09:29 <decause> we're "calibrating" the video conference
19:09:45 <decause> thanks for patience everybody :)
19:11:45 <decause> #link http://bluejeans.com/numbers
19:12:15 <decause> #info http://bluejeans.com/numbers will give toll-free dial-in number for each country, and then you can input conf ID to get to the meeting
19:12:22 <decause> #TIL
19:12:32 <decause> #link https://raw.githubusercontent.com/fedoradesign/fedora-hubs/master/meta/diagram-1.png
19:12:42 <pingou> TI
19:12:44 <pingou> L?
19:13:27 <pingou> sgallagh's camera moving looks like a home-made movie or so
19:13:46 <pingou> you fear that zombies wil show up behing him or so!
19:15:09 <abompard> pingou: exactly what I was thinking
19:15:16 <garrett> stickster: we should totally have more video calls together!
19:15:23 <abompard> pingou: felt like Blair Witch Project all over again
19:15:26 <pingou> garrett++
19:15:26 <zodbot> pingou: Karma for garrettl changed to 1:  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
19:15:26 <garrett> stickster: (not sure if my mic is working... hmm)
19:15:32 <pingou> abompard: def!
19:16:27 <stickster> garrett: I heard you earlier
19:16:32 <garrett> ah, geat!
19:16:33 <decause> mizmo__: We already had a meetin gabout what hubs should be used for, and how it works
19:16:33 <garrett> great
19:16:37 <stickster> I just didn't catch part of what you said, my fault entirely :-)
19:16:40 <garrett> I have a bit of a sore throat apparently too
19:16:41 <decause> I went through the notes, mockups, and tried to make it concrete
19:16:47 <garrett> so it's a bit rough to talk
19:16:55 <decause> I tried to break it into atomic chunks to understand how to make it real
19:16:56 <garrett> (could be seasonal allergies still/again)
19:17:04 <decause> there are multiple categories
19:17:18 * decause enjoys the airshow audibles in Rochester now...
19:17:42 <decause> first is fedmsg data
19:17:50 <decause> it was split into diff categories of where data comes from
19:18:04 <decause> it isn't exhaustive, but goes across apps, and includes hub-interesting messages
19:18:12 <decause> we can talk about which are easy/painful to track
19:18:26 <decause> another is the fedora-hubs mockups have "special content" that is handled differently
19:18:37 <decause> some of them are more interactive than others
19:18:49 <decause> blogs posts and mailing lists posts in particular
19:18:58 <decause> it would be nice, with blogposts, if
19:19:08 <decause> like, on FB, when someone has threaded posts on walls
19:19:25 <decause> grabbing content from blogposts, and then being able to write comments on hubs, and not have to log-in
19:19:32 <garrett> what about trackbacks?
19:19:32 <decause> sgallagh: the g+ lets you add comments to anything
19:19:39 <decause> disqus exists too says decause
19:19:59 <decause> the next one is ML posts
19:20:09 <decause> that is honestly, treating posts like HyperKitty does
19:20:20 <decause> if there was a magic way to make hyperkitty posts show up in hubs, that would be great
19:20:26 <decause> not sure how magical of an ask that is
19:20:31 <decause> "Custom apps"
19:20:37 <decause> things that don't really exist already in the world
19:20:47 <decause> these are like apps within hub that ned to be made
19:20:51 <decause> hub management:
19:20:57 <decause> it is somewhat automated
19:21:06 <decause> if someone makes a comment, you get a badge, etc... that shows up in your stream
19:21:27 <decause> what woudl require config is, managers need to be able to configure things like "enabling tickets" "who's blogs show up"
19:21:40 <decause> picking the widgets on your team's page, and a configuration management thing woudl be good
19:21:46 <decause> to make hubs more like Reddit
19:21:59 <decause> make team hubs come from fas groups, but people could create new sub-spaces on the fly
19:22:04 <decause> Fedora.next touches a lot of teams
19:22:19 <decause> there are WG, council, groups, many teams, not just one, or one place it fits
19:22:25 <decause> so a "project" based hub woudl be great
19:22:32 <decause> then having a config UI to add admins, etc would be great
19:22:39 <decause> maybe under covers being a FAS group?
19:22:46 <decause> being able to retire/archive
19:22:55 <decause> i.e. Fedora Website redsign 2009
19:23:08 <decause> we're 2 sites ahead of that now, so archived to be looked at later, if you search fo rit
19:23:30 <decause> Hubs have a way you can post the community rules, welcome message, stuff that shows up (like an MOTD) for folks who join the hub
19:23:34 <decause> search would be something to handle in stages
19:23:35 <decause> IRC
19:23:42 <decause> many people have pointed me to wartaa
19:23:54 <decause> it would be nice, fo ra lot of non-dev disciplines, they don't have IRC experience
19:24:03 <decause> mizmo__: moksha has a webchat plugin, FYI
19:24:18 <decause> tickets
19:24:26 <decause> having tickets show up in hubs, and maybe different back-ends
19:24:32 <decause> show all tickets from report #3, etc...
19:24:35 <decause> FAS integration
19:24:44 <decause> this is something we're thinking, FAS3 UI, for managing users
19:24:53 <decause> if you ar emanager of a fas grpu, and change things about groups, that woudl be good
19:25:01 <decause> this is up for discussion fo rsure
19:25:06 <oddshocks> decause++
19:25:14 <decause> if this is the way new contribs come to Fedora, one big thing that comes up, is settin gup FAS account
19:25:20 <decause> designers don't know about ssh keys, for example
19:25:31 <decause> if we have ne contributors go to HUBS, then we can make account creation as part of that
19:25:44 <decause> new FAS account flow, within hubs, and then configuration after would be FAS3
19:25:49 <decause> that was the thought there
19:25:55 <decause> minor config for hubs the app
19:26:11 <decause> if you enroll in design team hub, then you auto-apply for FAS team membership
19:26:22 <decause> Grabbing avatars, how does it integrate with FAS, etc...
19:26:26 <decause> we can go through in order
19:26:32 <decause> if aurelian is here, we can start here
19:26:35 <decause> abompard: starts
19:26:45 <decause> #topic abompard
19:27:01 <decause> displaying an email thread in something else, is doable afaiac
19:27:15 <decause> it won't take 2 days ofcourse, but hyperkitty could possibly serve entire page fragment to hubs
19:27:18 <decause> abompard++
19:27:21 <decause> that would be great
19:27:38 <decause> threebean: how about responding to a thread in a fragment? would embedded auth be problematic?
19:27:49 <decause> abompard: it assumes a person is already subscribed to the list
19:28:03 <decause> threebean: I know hyperkitty can do that, but if it is embedded, then...
19:28:09 <decause> hubs uses openid for auth
19:28:14 <decause> hyperkitty uses persona
19:28:18 <decause> that is a tech detail?
19:28:38 <decause> sgallagh: the app that we use to interface with hyperkitty could just impersonate
19:28:46 <decause> this is just the email protocol
19:29:00 <decause> sgallagh: we /could/ check for gpg keys, but then we lose much of the contributor base
19:29:21 <decause> mizmo__: maybe this is a petpeeve, but if a user has an @fp.o address, we should use that
19:29:34 <decause> if I started using a diff email, instead of @fp.o, people would be confused
19:29:52 <decause> sgallagh: i know I use my RH email addy
19:30:12 <decause> maybe giveing people an option in FAS somewhere, says Mizmo
19:30:17 <decause> threebean: what does badges do?
19:30:30 <decause> this is a simliar problem, if I'm hearing this right
19:30:52 <decause> abompard: if hyperkitty uses the page fragment, we would use widget/backend from hyperkitty.
19:30:59 <decause> if we just display json, we can reply directly
19:31:18 <decause> mizmo__: overall, hyperkitty emeded isn't impossible, then, yes?
19:31:28 <decause> #info HyperKitty embedding is possible for HUbs!
19:32:46 <decause> #topic Custom Apps
19:32:58 <decause> the purple category, including irc client
19:33:25 <decause> the search will be harder, says pingou
19:33:45 <decause> sgallagh: fedora has a policy against retaining logs unless in a meeting
19:33:58 <decause> sgallagh: we should be mindful of that data retention policy
19:34:15 <decause> which means searching past logs is not going to be possible, (unless meeting minutes)
19:34:34 <decause> threebean++ for having meetbot traffic | fedmsg
19:34:37 <decause> threebean++
19:34:38 <decause> so good
19:34:40 <decause> :)
19:35:17 <decause> threebean: on irc logs, if we use wartaa, they do keep all the logs... so new users when joining for the first time they would have backlogs
19:35:21 <decause> this is a grey area
19:36:18 <decause> mizmo__: if we say we don't log, then we shouldn't log IRC
19:36:26 <decause> if it is wartaa, then where does that data live
19:36:29 <decause> ?
19:37:13 <decause> mizmo__: I understand the "I'm 10 minutes late, I wish I had the log"
19:37:28 <decause> sgallagh: we should add a "live meeting minutes feature" for meetbot?
19:37:33 <decause> threebean: council
19:37:35 <decause> nod nod
19:37:45 <decause> threebean: where should we take up this issue?
19:37:51 <decause> sgallagh: council for sure
19:38:01 <decause> mizmo__: is it possible to have the past so many lines to show up when they join?
19:38:14 <decause> sgallagh: the way most irc proxies work is keeping the past 500-1000 lines
19:38:26 <decause> that could be a modification we make to the policy, says sgallagh
19:38:38 <decause> sgallagh: I could see the council being sympathetic to this
19:38:42 <decause> mizmo__: the other one is tickets
19:38:46 <decause> #topic tickets widget
19:39:09 <decause> mizmo__: having a widget for open tickets
19:39:17 <decause> sgallagh: easy-fix tickets widget too
19:39:19 * decause agrees
19:39:28 <decause> mizmo__: I could see other people wanting other widgets too
19:39:36 <decause> abompard: the XMLRPC api will make this possible, yes
19:39:46 <decause> pingou: this will be per trac, but can curry whatever we want
19:40:03 <decause> mizmo__: I remember when we did fedora-packages app, we had to wait a long time for tickets API
19:40:22 <decause> threebean: we implemented caching now, so that woudl be great to have a facade over *all* the tickets
19:40:28 <decause> pagure/github/trac/bugzilla
19:40:42 <decause> mizmo__: I see trac being used by ambassadors, but marketing using more bugzilla
19:40:58 <decause> mizmo__: I should make a requirements doc, maybe for each ticket backend, or widget?
19:41:10 <decause> pingou: this is integrated with fedmsg, yes? or could be?
19:41:17 <decause> pingou: caching fedmsg data?
19:41:25 <garrett> okay, I've converted the diagram-1.svg/png text into copy/pastable text and pasted it into the pad
19:41:26 <decause> threebean: I think so, with the exception of bugzilla, which is due any day now :P
19:41:39 <decause> garrett: #link plz :)
19:41:50 <garrett> it's in http://piratepad.net/HwJw18vedm
19:42:16 <decause> threebean: I guess it is different, because fedmsg has the "latest" info, but for the custom app, maybe not sorted same way?
19:42:19 <decause> by priority, or owner?
19:42:32 <decause> mizmo__: yeah, much more like a firehouse, where custom apps is a static widget that can be sorted
19:42:37 <decause> it could go either way
19:42:59 <decause> pingou: the point was listed as creating a new ticket, not existing, yes?
19:43:01 <decause> mizmo__: oh, right?
19:43:31 <garrett> (I replaced decause's excellent manual typing effort with the whole list)
19:43:38 <decause> sgallagh: we should talk to RH internal folks. There was a number of fact-finding missions for high-level product management work, and I know at least 2 demos I saw had applications who's purpose was to integrate bug-trackers into them.
19:43:43 <decause> bugzilla/trac/jira/etc
19:43:50 <decause> garrett++
19:43:50 <zodbot> decause: Karma for garrettl changed to 2:  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
19:43:57 <decause> sgallagh: don't remember what they were called
19:44:19 <decause> #action sgallagh dig for that information on fact-finding missions around product management at RHT
19:44:43 <decause> mizmo__: I wouldn't expect to create a ticket in-line on hubs
19:44:45 <decause> sgallagh: why?
19:44:50 <decause> mizmo__: we want to make easy for new contribs
19:45:02 <decause> if I want to "do" stuff, I find tickets to "do" then I click on a trac ticket, and go there
19:45:13 <decause> sgallagh: if the first thing isn't "i tried this and it broke"
19:45:27 <decause> mizmo__: you don't file inkscape crash tickets with design team, for example
19:45:39 <garrett> mizmo__: it'd be excellent if it worked like yummly.com, where it pulls in the important info and a button link to the full page if that's not enough
19:45:56 <decause> mizmo__: there could be a big button to create a ticket, which woudl be part of managemnt config, to create a ticket on manager-defined ticket badckend
19:46:17 <decause> sgallagh: we should talk to GNOME to have this work with bugfilinig there too!
19:46:20 <decause> mizmo__: yeah, ok!
19:46:27 <garrett> (yummly does it for recipes; it understands recipes from multiple sites and knows how to harvest the important info, and even offers conversions and such)
19:46:55 <pingou> SmootherFrOgZ: the floor is yours
19:46:58 <mizmo__> SmootherFrOgZ, we can't hear ya hehe
19:46:58 <garrett> it would be useful to identiy things in common across bug trackers and normalize it
19:47:07 <decause> xavier, you there?
19:47:19 <decause> #topic FAS Stuff
19:47:24 <decause> SmootherFrOgZ: HOw can I help you?
19:47:33 <decause> mizmo__: does our plan so far for hubs seem to make sense?
19:47:38 <decause> new user creation flow?
19:47:39 <decause> SmootherFrOgZ: yeah
19:48:07 <decause> mizmo__: hubs is a self-service thing, doing minor config stuff like updating your email, maybe when you join design hub, auto-apply to fas group
19:48:20 <decause> fas admin = hub admin, you can set up mass acounts during hackfest, etc...
19:48:29 <decause> SmootherFrOgZ: that makes sense, but we hav ea new concept, which is the license agreement
19:48:38 <decause> when you set up new account, you have to sign CLA
19:48:48 <decause> we need to figure out how to do that
19:49:11 <decause> maybe we have something simple, like input username/email, and after, to enable account, you are redirected to fas to validate, and update CLA
19:49:19 <decause> mizmo__: once in fas, you then do cla workflow, yeah?
19:49:39 <decause> mizmo__: linkedin does that, right? 20% when you sign up, but to get to 50%, you have to fill out profile
19:49:59 <decause> SmootherFrOgZ: yeah, and having a workflow to help understand what a work group means. We talk about membership now.
19:50:10 <decause> we belong to gropus, but we are part of a mebmership, like packager.
19:50:15 <decause> it is more contribution based
19:50:43 <decause> when you are new to fedora, maybe we need to discuss this more? Do you have to be part of FAS to be part of Hubs?
19:51:07 <decause> mizmo__: I understand how FAS works now, but there are things like "git commit" groups, which shouldn't show up in Hubs
19:51:10 <decause> SmootherFrOgZ: yes
19:51:19 <decause> mizmo__: peple should be able to follow a team, even if they aren't a member
19:51:28 <decause> following the design hub, without being a member, for instance
19:51:38 <decause> mizmo__: does the new FAS have concept of permission based groups?
19:51:49 <decause> SmootherFrOgZ: you can join a team without sponsors
19:51:55 <decause> you cannot do that now in current FAS
19:52:00 <decause> invite only groups are now
19:52:13 <decause> SmootherFrOgZ: anyone with a FAS account can join
19:52:25 <decause> mizmo__: is there a higher-level? Authority or permissions?
19:52:45 <decause> SmootherFrOgZ: yeah, you can do that. If there is ano sponsor role, you can do whatever you want, or you can set up something for perimssions.
19:53:49 <decause> mizmo__: for a gropu, a scenario; say we have fans of design team, they like our artwork, they join the hub an dfollow it. They become members of the group in FAS3. We also have "do-ers" in design team. WE want them to get the "credit" Can that co-exist? Some sponsored folks who get things like the @fp.o email, and others who ar enot sponsors who can just read?
19:53:54 <decause> SmootherFrOgZ: yes
19:53:57 <decause> mizmo__: great!
19:54:24 <decause> mizmo__: I don't know exactly how this would work, but following a group versus joining a group handled in fas3
19:54:33 <decause> SmootherFrOgZ: with fedmsg, we can do that!
19:54:36 <nyazdani> sorry but i have to leave to catch a flight
19:54:43 <decause> mizmo__: it would be great to hit approve/decline in the UI on hubs!
19:54:57 <decause> mizmo__: introducing our interns!
19:56:01 <decause> #topic CLA
19:56:14 <decause> oddshocks: question: how much can be contibuted without a FAS account, or the CLA?
19:56:29 <decause> oddshocks: if someone wanted to contribute a wallpaper, but didn't want to sign CLA. Is that ok, or not cool?
19:56:39 <decause> SmootherFrOgZ: from a tech point of view, that sounds possible.
19:56:45 <decause> you can say that a gropu doesn't need a CLA
19:56:57 <decause> right now, it is on Fedora Legal to say whether we want that?
19:57:50 <decause> pingou: said those things, btw
19:58:05 <decause> mizmo__: we tell people in design that wallpapers must be licensed, fyi
19:58:24 <decause> mizmo__: the default process is very manual for non-supplemental wallpaper
19:59:14 <decause> stickster: I had a convo with pingou/oddshocks: it would be great if people wanted to make small contibutions, outside of wallpaper, to hav ea layer or wrapper around FAS, to have them grant a license. It sounds like SmootherFrOgZ has a capabilitiy here.
19:59:32 <decause> stickster: what I wouldn't want to happne, is so frictionless, people start spamming and it gets misused
19:59:43 <decause> the same way that comment spam, or link spam, people have methods for that which are bad
19:59:49 <decause> but if we can tie into an identity
20:00:06 <decause> stickster: perhaps a provisional account?
20:00:15 <decause> that may be more difficult than it sounds
20:00:43 <decause> mizmo__: if you look at facebook, it makes no sense if you don't go "all-in"
20:00:53 <decause> mizmo__: on the other hand, twitter, you can just read it all day without an account
20:01:08 <decause> mizmo__: if we set you up with a provisional account, then you could follow the streams, and then get the motivation to get started
20:01:17 <decause> today, you gotta "make a fas account first, then we can talk"
20:01:34 <decause> mizmo__: maybe we let them use some widgets
20:02:03 <decause> #topic mockups
20:02:25 <decause> mizmo__: the way I saw it initially was not seeing things til you logged in. I was always confused about reddit, for example
20:02:56 <decause> mizmo__: I wanted to keep the customizations "sticky" maybe with things like cookies if we don't require an account?
20:03:17 <decause> mizmo__: that being said, it might be ok to not
20:03:27 <decause> sgallagh: looking at the firehouse seems ok for that
20:03:35 <decause> mizmo__: sure, but what firehose?
20:03:56 <decause> mizmo__: if we have default firehoses, we just gotta make sure they are not packaging-centric only
20:04:06 <decause> sgallagh: yeah, we be thoughtful about picking th edefaults
20:04:07 <garrett> mizmo__: I think it's best to have a Hubs Lite for people who are not signed in, and have some text to show features for signing up
20:04:14 <decause> blogs tagged as "good for new contibs"
20:04:29 <decause> sgallagh: def not pacakging-centric
20:04:47 <decause> mizmo__: that is a decision point
20:05:01 <decause> either way, even if you had to have an account, I don't anticipate anything on hubs being "secret"
20:05:11 <decause> maybe I'm adding a req here, but say there is a blog post, that appears on a hub
20:05:17 <decause> you click on timestamp, get a permalink
20:05:24 <decause> you should be able to share that elsewhere
20:05:34 <decause> mizmo__: we ahven't talked about how long information lives
20:06:06 * stickster sorry for dropping out -- did the wrong thing in irssi because I'm not smart
20:06:12 <decause> threebean: we keep fedmsg data forever. the question is how long to cache them for, and if we can get the info fast enough
20:06:55 <decause> mizmo__: when you get a preview window when you post something to FB, and then a permalink to hte full content
20:07:21 <decause> mizmo__: types furiously
20:07:31 <decause> #topics frameworks/engineering
20:07:33 <decause> threebean: ^
20:07:56 <decause> threebean: I made a protoype in flask, with widgets, but it doesn't do the "cool" hard stuff yet
20:08:05 <decause> if people wanna look at hat, we can build more on it
20:08:12 <decause> threebean: or we can choose other frameworks
20:08:15 <decause> threebean: link plz
20:08:23 <decause> stickster: how does that compare with moksha?
20:08:38 <decause> stickster: I dunno if moksha is aged out or not?
20:08:57 <decause> threebean: moksha wsgi components are old, and use TG2/TW2, we don't wanna use
20:09:06 <decause> we can build it much more simply this time, from lessons learned
20:09:15 <decause> oddshocks: do we wanna keep flask, or switch to pyramid
20:09:25 <decause> oddshocks: I remember pyramid being better at multi-threading
20:09:34 <decause> oddshocks: I am for either, and def sqlalchemy
20:10:10 <decause> threebean: hubs has a light acl model
20:10:45 <decause> SmootherFrOgZ: I think it depends on architecture
20:11:08 <decause> we should decide after that. If we decide to use a bunch of javascript, then maybe flask. but if more low-level, then maybe pyramid.
20:11:15 <decause> it will depend on architecture
20:11:24 <decause> pingou: I have more  of a question to designers
20:11:36 <decause> pingou: what about front-end frameworks?
20:12:09 <decause> mizmo__: I don't like frameworks at all, so I will grumble at all of them
20:12:10 <decause> :P
20:12:20 <decause> garrett: sass seems to be the clear choice these days
20:12:50 <decause> garrett: I've used a bunch of bootstrap, but experimented with semantic-ui
20:13:04 <decause> garrett: I like scss
20:13:17 <decause> both have pros and cons
20:13:31 <decause> mizmo__: I'll grumble at sass, but if that is cleaner, then I'll go with it
20:13:40 <decause> pingou: I thought it was
20:13:43 <decause> says decause
20:14:05 <decause> oddshocks: if people don't like sass/less, I"m fine writing css
20:14:23 <decause> mizmo__: I feel like scss may be the way to go
20:14:28 <decause> if sass is too strict
20:15:34 <decause> abompard: we should maybe think about those single-page javascript frameworks like angular?
20:16:02 <decause> mizmo__: bootstrap is what we use for fedora-website, and I'm comfortable with that
20:16:10 <decause> I got *burned* with 960.gs, so not that
20:16:19 <decause> mizmo__: there are so many people that know bootstrap
20:16:32 <decause> so it would improve our chance of finding contributors
20:16:51 <garrett> with sass/scss, it's possible to use bootstrap without littering the classes inside the page
20:16:51 <decause> stickster: I think ryanlerch is working on getting bootstrap in our sites too
20:17:09 <garrett> you can use @extend to say "this class inherits from this other one"
20:17:18 <decause> threebean: I think there will be a lot of front-end javascript machinery
20:17:27 <decause> none of us really have much experience with angular
20:17:34 <garrett> like .sidebar { @extend .col-md-4 };
20:17:36 <decause> abompard: I've tried a few tihngs with it
20:17:53 <decause> abompard: there is also backbone.js, which can link elements to backends
20:18:02 <decause> but, I don't know how much that ties us to an arch we don't want
20:18:04 <garrett> so all the classes could be semantic if you want
20:18:10 <decause> abompard: could be interesting, don't know how invasive it is
20:18:17 <decause> mizmo__: is angular like jquery?
20:18:29 <decause> abompard: it is more like a framework, but it can use jquery
20:18:59 * stickster is not immediately -1 something new... we want to make a smart decision, though
20:19:01 * decause would like to use python as much as possible
20:19:26 <decause> there are things about angular that I'm not a huge fan of, like creating custom <html> tag markup
20:19:34 * decause is not going ot be doing most dev though :P
20:19:55 <decause> garrett: whatever we do, we shouldn't recreate the wheel
20:20:40 <garrett> I've heard angular is good
20:21:23 <garrett> jQuery is ubiquitous, but it's not an app framework
20:22:13 * decause says a bunch of stuff
20:22:21 <garrett> handlebars (or even just plain mustache) is good for UI templating; it's supported by most languages, and can be used on the backend as well as the frontend
20:22:23 <decause> mizmo__: is there an alternative to angular?
20:22:45 <stickster> There are 5 more since the question was asked :-D
20:22:56 <garrett> stickster: haha, totally
20:23:13 <garrett> popular and good, totally
20:24:42 <decause> oddshocks: I don't wanna harp too hard on tech decisions here
20:24:46 <decause> oddshocks: where do we go from here?
20:25:06 <puiterwijk> decause: isn't there a releng day coming up focussing about hubs?
20:25:09 <puiterwijk> thursday or so?
20:25:14 <puiterwijk> mizmo__: yup, two thursdays from now
20:25:34 <puiterwijk> decause: we have mockups from last year and new req docs from this meeting. How far apart are those right now?
20:25:47 <puiterwijk> mizmo__: is there stuff we have no mockup for?
20:25:48 <puiterwijk> decause: yes
20:26:05 <puiterwijk> mizmo__: no mockups for mgmt ui, some mockups for search but depends on where we want to go.
20:26:20 <puiterwijk> for some thigns there's undeteailed mockups
20:26:42 <puiterwijk> no FAS mockups for configuring
20:26:53 <puiterwijk> that's about it, the rest is just "How does this display"?
20:27:06 <puiterwijk> The rest is what we talked about, join vs follow, etc
20:27:27 <puiterwijk> Those are the main things not in mockups, but most should follow from what there is already
20:27:48 <puiterwijk> decause: We have a lot of data already like fedmsg and grepper. When are we getting hubs?
20:27:54 <puiterwijk> oddshocks: Q4 is on the goal list
20:28:03 <puiterwijk> (that's about february next year)
20:28:18 <puiterwijk> decause: FAD is mostly about releng, so mini-hackathon is a bit demanding
20:28:49 <puiterwijk> But "battle plan" session before then might be useful, where we update requirements and work with simple widgets and mockups, to see what we're missing
20:29:08 <puiterwijk> There's probably more meetings to be had to determine what needs to be done
20:29:29 <puiterwijk> mizmo__: We can all fix the mockups, and we have designer-power (women-power) for this
20:29:50 <decause> puiterwijk++
20:29:57 <puiterwijk> threebean: about fedmsg, most is there (FMN etc), but how is the management and curation going to work?
20:30:18 <puiterwijk> are they going to be redirected to FMN to modify this, or is hubs going to do this?
20:30:30 <puiterwijk> How to capture all this is hard
20:30:47 <puiterwijk> mizmo__: From my UX perspective, we should filter from the content in the context.
20:31:08 <puiterwijk> Most people will never have experienced badges, and as such don't know what it is
20:31:20 <puiterwijk> Though experienced packagers for example might call koji messages spam.
20:32:01 <puiterwijk> Maybe something like "No posts like this anymore" is useful
20:32:35 <puiterwijk> either on the package or source
20:33:08 <puiterwijk> People don't want their feeds poluted, and might have different workflows and as such want to have it hidden
20:33:30 <puiterwijk> (sgallagh said that these messages might prompt the packages to monitor it closer)
20:33:36 <puiterwijk> packagers*
20:34:13 <puiterwijk> oddshocks: We're talking about two different things. We have fedmsg with a lot of data, so it's easy to say "I don't want to see stuff from this package", but we're also talking about how to display it on hubs, which is likely more complicated
20:34:23 <puiterwijk> The way fedmsg messages come in is that they come through a filter
20:34:38 <puiterwijk> Which generates sentences, but while those messages might be useful on desktop but not on hubs
20:34:49 <puiterwijk> oddshocks:thinks we're talking about filtering based on metadata
20:35:06 <puiterwijk> mizmo__: didn't know we have an app where they can control what messages they get
20:35:18 <puiterwijk> in-line contextual modification is probably the best
20:35:24 <puiterwijk> threebean: that answers my questions
20:35:38 <puiterwijk> What if you overlimit it? You can get overwhelmed pretty easily
20:35:50 <puiterwijk> This isn't easy to fix without machine learning, which is very difficult to do
20:36:04 <pingou> threebean: I can see so much/well machine-learning for this
20:36:05 <puiterwijk> mizmo__: we might want to focus on "most important" and then people can add more as they want to
20:36:16 <pingou> analyze the message of a hub and find messages that might be of interest :)
20:36:39 <puiterwijk> mizmo__: and the same content that peopel hide from their feed might show up on team feed and then they might get reinterrested in it
20:37:12 <puiterwijk> threebean: What does "I don't want to see this anymore" mean? If you have a message "duffy built nethack", and you say "I don't want to see it", is that about duffy or nethack?
20:37:30 <puiterwijk> sgallagh: you want the most restrictive set probably, so "No messages from duffy about nethack"
20:37:44 <puiterwijk> mizmo__: We should not be able to block an entire person from one message
20:37:51 <puiterwijk> MAybe from profiles
20:37:57 <puiterwijk> sgallagh: I don't know who you talk about!
20:37:59 <puiterwijk> :-)
20:38:11 <puiterwijk> mizmo__: that's what we do on other apps: Block users from profiles
20:38:57 <puiterwijk> We should not jump out of scope, so "block message" on "bodhi message for package X" would still show koji messages for that package
20:39:39 <puiterwijk> sgallagh: Workflows should be kept in mind. I might want to see a message I made a build but forgot to file an update
20:40:31 <puiterwijk> You use trello, it'll warn you with reminders, that's pretty useful
20:41:01 <puiterwijk> mizmo__: I like to think of messages from the perspective of the app emiting them, but maybe we should focus on workflows
20:41:29 <puiterwijk> sgallagh: It's the package not the application. Workflow is the application. We do a build because we want people to use the package, we don't care about the build per se
20:41:59 <puiterwijk> mizmo__: we could chain it, so for every koji message bodhi builds should appear, that's useful
20:42:40 <puiterwijk> "People might come in monday and wonder what they were working on when they left
20:42:52 <puiterwijk> You can get that without any difficult workflow
20:43:04 <puiterwijk> But all this is mostly pony's, future work
20:43:16 <puiterwijk> threebean: We can make workflow widgets i ncustom apps
20:43:24 <puiterwijk> like "Koji builds waiting my attention"
20:43:33 <puiterwijk> if there's no notifications in that widget, we hide it
20:43:45 <puiterwijk> it'd be cool, but it would take a long time to write per widget
20:43:51 <puiterwijk> like "Google Now"  cards
20:44:17 <puiterwijk> oddshocks: OpenSuse connect is something also widgets like these, and would be cool
20:44:48 <puiterwijk> mizmo__: worried about widget: a lot of customatization like placing them in the right place etc.
20:44:55 <puiterwijk> We don't want to go there
20:45:06 <puiterwijk> You don't want to worry about it
20:45:14 <puiterwijk> You should be able to customize your own page, but not free-for-all
20:45:37 <puiterwijk> Pandas on mizmo__'s page!!!!
20:45:42 <decause> :)
20:46:09 <decause> #topic specific fedmsg widgets
20:46:14 <puiterwijk> threebean: we can go through example messages in the custom message. some are difficult and others are easier
20:46:29 <puiterwijk> There's no "subscription" to copr repos for example
20:46:41 <puiterwijk> But teams would be easy with regex's
20:46:57 <puiterwijk> sgallagh: copr sends messages whenever something is built so we could use followers for that as subscriptions
20:47:06 <puiterwijk> decause++
20:47:06 <zodbot> puiterwijk: Karma for decause changed to 7:  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
20:47:25 <puiterwijk> sgallagh: we do want opt-in or opt-out. Maybe not in DNF but in hubs
20:47:34 <puiterwijk> mizmo__: something like "Follow a package" in copr we could use
20:47:52 <puiterwijk> threebean: RFE for rating for copr filed, we can re-use that information to see interresting repos
20:48:28 <puiterwijk> The prototype has two columns and you can choose where the barier is and you can choose where stuff are in but they stack, but that's all the customization
20:48:31 <puiterwijk> mizmo__: that's cool.
20:49:04 <puiterwijk> sgallagh: there are people with other screen resolutions. three columns might be reasonable
20:49:09 <puiterwijk> mizmo__: I don't know. It's a lot ofdetails
20:49:13 <puiterwijk> extra options: not sure
20:49:31 <puiterwijk> mizmo__: automatic extra columns for screen widths?
20:49:51 <puiterwijk> close to two hours. Well, less, but partly not recorded
20:49:57 <decause> puiterwijk: thank you for taking over transcription for PartII
20:50:07 <puiterwijk> decause: no problem. Want to take back over, or do I finish?
20:50:29 <puiterwijk> mizmo__: do we have the entire day during releng FAD?
20:50:32 <puiterwijk> threebean: I think we have the morning
20:50:44 <puiterwijk> stickster: need to check if a room si booked, but time is up to participants
20:51:06 <puiterwijk> We have people from EMEA, so too far past "lunchtime" (US time) might not be the best as they're getting at their "wits end"
20:51:29 <puiterwijk> So decissions should probably be earlier, but hacking or stuff not deciding the direction is best i nthe afternoon
20:51:38 <puiterwijk> not esure if it's easy to pick out
20:51:59 <puiterwijk> mizmo__: wants to see the prototype, but we're out of poitns otherwise
20:52:08 <puiterwijk> I didn't know there's so many decissions.
20:53:13 <puiterwijk> stickster: isl ooking at reserving the room with working video link
20:53:19 <puiterwijk> oddshocks: continuing at June 4th?
20:53:27 <puiterwijk> mizmo__: threebean will walk us through the PoC
20:53:44 <puiterwijk> We should try it and then hit problems to make decissions
20:53:49 <puiterwijk> We covered msot of the basics
20:53:57 <puiterwijk> oddshocks: happy to help with threebean on prototype before then
20:53:59 <puiterwijk> decause: as well
20:54:09 <puiterwijk> threebean: will send link in channel
20:54:21 <threebean> https://github.com/ralphbean/fedora-hubs-prototype
20:54:26 <puiterwijk> #link https://github.com/ralphbean/fedora-hubs-prototype
20:54:29 <threebean> sleep++
20:54:29 <zodbot> threebean: Karma for sleep changed to 1:  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
20:54:47 <pingou> sleep++ def!
20:54:48 <zodbot> pingou: Karma for sleep changed to 2:  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
20:54:54 <pingou> .fasinfo slee
20:54:55 <zodbot> pingou: User "slee" doesn't exist
20:54:56 <pingou> .fasinfo sleep
20:54:56 <puiterwijk> sleep--. Who needs that?
20:54:58 <zodbot> pingou: User: sleep, Name: Bertrand Bourgy, email: sleep.alive@gmail.com, Creation: 2008-12-04, IRC Nick: None, Timezone: UTC, Locale: C, GPG key ID: None, Status: inactive
20:55:01 <zodbot> pingou: Approved Groups: cla_fedora
20:55:04 <pingou> best nick ever :D
20:55:05 <threebean> love it https://badges.fedoraproject.org/user/sleep
20:55:06 <puiterwijk> hah :)
20:55:17 <decause> oddshocks++
20:55:22 <puiterwijk> oddshocks:will update wiki, send email and send recordings out
20:55:36 <puiterwijk> thansk all for joining!!!
20:55:44 * pingou heads off, cheers people!
20:55:50 <garrett> good night!
20:55:53 <puiterwijk> *RECORDING STOPPED*
20:56:01 <puiterwijk> good night to those who are getting sleep
20:56:02 <threebean> good night all :)
20:57:11 <puiterwijk> (lots of room scheduling at this point, so I think meeting has ended)
20:57:23 <puiterwijk> oddshocks: how about we close the IRC meeting?
20:57:37 <oddshocks> feel free
20:57:45 <puiterwijk> decause: ^
20:57:48 <puiterwijk> oddshocks: I'm not a chair :)
20:57:49 <oddshocks> thanks so much decause puiterwijk and all others for transcription
20:57:55 <decause> puiterwijk: #agreed
20:58:00 <puiterwijk> #endmeeting
20:58:03 <puiterwijk> decause: ^ can you do that?
20:58:07 <puiterwijk> nobody else is a chair :)
20:58:07 <decause> #chair puiterwijk
20:58:07 <zodbot> Current chairs: decause oddshocks puiterwijk
20:58:21 <puiterwijk> Thanks everyone for joining!
20:58:23 <puiterwijk> #endmeeting