20:02:35 <FranciscoD_> #startmeeting Fedora Join
20:02:35 <zodbot> Meeting started Fri Oct 16 20:02:35 2015 UTC.  The chair is FranciscoD_. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
20:02:35 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
20:02:45 <FranciscoD_> #chair jflory7 randomuser mailga
20:02:45 <zodbot> Current chairs: FranciscoD_ jflory7 mailga randomuser
20:02:51 <FranciscoD_> #topic rollcall
20:02:53 <FranciscoD_> .hello ankursinha
20:02:54 <zodbot> FranciscoD_: ankursinha 'Ankur Sinha' <sanjay.ankur@gmail.com>
20:03:01 <mailga> .fas mailga
20:03:02 <zodbot> mailga: mailga 'Gabriele Trombini' <g.trombini@gmail.com>
20:03:03 <randomuser> Hi, I'm here but kinda preoccupied at the moment
20:03:24 <FranciscoD_> no worries randomuser :)
20:03:39 <jflory7> .hello jflory7
20:03:40 <zodbot> jflory7: jflory7 'Justin W. Flory' <me@justinwflory.com>
20:03:57 <mailga> hello jflory7 glad to see you here.
20:04:19 <jflory7> Glad to be here!
20:04:30 <FranciscoD_> I don't think we're expecting any one else, but lets wait for a minute, just in case :)
20:04:39 <mailga> hello FranciscoD_ (but we meet almost everyday)..
20:04:43 <FranciscoD_> :D
20:05:34 <FranciscoD_> Ok, lets begin with just a summary of what happened at flock
20:05:39 <FranciscoD_> #topic flock summary
20:05:41 <FranciscoD_> mailga: all yours :)
20:06:14 <mailga> jflory7: at Flock you were seated near decause?
20:06:34 <jflory7> For the Join meeting, I was closer to the back, but on decause's side.
20:07:31 <mailga> I haven't followed discussion between Pete and decause, do you remember anything?
20:08:22 <FranciscoD_> we can always ask decause_airplane to weigh in later on the ML. He's travelling iirc. He sent out an e-mail about it
20:08:43 * FranciscoD_ expects commops will be involved in lots of join things too
20:08:59 * mailga nods
20:09:57 <jflory7> I think so too. I don't remember anything immediately from that conversation.
20:10:27 <mailga> Ok, let's start with the recap, randomuser can join us later
20:10:32 <FranciscoD_> sure thing
20:10:34 <jflory7> Sounds good.
20:11:39 <mailga> Well, when I started the talk I thought I was able to follow the slides
20:12:07 <mailga> the same FranciscoD_  checked before.
20:12:12 <FranciscoD_> ++
20:12:50 <randomuser> okay, I'm here, had a phone call
20:13:00 <mailga> but, jflory7 can confirm that, soon the discussion started, before with Sirko then with decause
20:13:24 <mailga> Pete followed discussion with decause and me the one with Sirko.
20:14:01 <randomuser> there was a good conversation but the presentation was irreperably disrupted :(
20:14:13 <mailga> Well the first point was the merge between the join process of the groups...
20:14:35 <FranciscoD_> mailga: randomuser: use the meetbot commands liberally so that the logs are  nice and informative :)
20:14:41 <mailga> randomuser: so true! I don't remember if I ended the slides.
20:14:57 <mailga> FranciscoD_: ok.
20:15:26 <mailga> So the first question is: do we start a project for the merge of the join processes?
20:15:38 <randomuser> in summary, we kinda decided to go forward with figuring out what we can do, and doing it
20:15:51 <FranciscoD_> ok, so ideas then
20:16:04 <FranciscoD_> #idea merge join processes of different Fedora teams
20:16:14 <FranciscoD_> we'll discuss what implementing this would take in the next topic
20:16:24 <mailga> ok.
20:16:30 <FranciscoD_> what other ideas do we have to streamline the process?
20:16:36 <FranciscoD_> #idea join.fp.o redo
20:16:54 <FranciscoD_> join.fp.o is not newbie friendly :/
20:17:17 <mailga> no, of course, but we have whatcanidoforfedora.o
20:17:23 <jflory7> Well, from my perspective, I think the Join initiative is something that should be an interest of everyone in the project, which I think was kind of mentioned in the talk.
20:17:32 <FranciscoD_> jflory7++
20:17:34 <jflory7> It seems like that interest is a little bit absent in the general Join initiative
20:17:35 <FranciscoD_> mailga++
20:17:54 <FranciscoD_> jflory7: I think that's also because we go quiet for longish periods of time
20:17:58 <FranciscoD_> not enough traction
20:18:14 <jflory7> Is that because the interest is elsewhere or dispersed among other groups? I think the purpose of the Join initiative is a little bit fuzzy outside of making it easier to onboard new members.
20:18:15 <FranciscoD_> whatcanidoforfedora is awesome
20:18:38 <FranciscoD_> jflory7: that too, we haven't really worked on details - what we're going to do and how we're going to do it
20:18:51 <FranciscoD_> as randomuser said
20:19:06 <FranciscoD_> i'd like to have a task list that we can begin working on, basically
20:19:07 * randomuser thinks Fedora needs a planing / process tool that is not the wiki
20:19:14 <FranciscoD_> +1
20:19:20 <jflory7> randomuser++
20:19:20 <zodbot> jflory7: Karma for immanetize changed to 17 (for the f22 release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
20:19:33 <mailga> FranciscoD_: in one of MO talks, the one he made with robyduck, she mentioned the possibility to rewrite the join page, accordintd to the hubs.
20:19:46 <FranciscoD_> mailga: yea, I read about that somewhere
20:20:02 <FranciscoD_> the thing is, from what I understood, hubs is only for existing contributors
20:20:13 <mailga> so we should also ask to MO or Robert about that.
20:20:15 <FranciscoD_> so I'm not too clear on how the join page would be integrated into that system
20:20:16 <randomuser> I think it's intended to make things approachable
20:20:55 <FranciscoD_> something like whatcanidoforfedora that takes the user to the hubs, which then walk through newbies will be nice
20:21:03 <mailga> yes, good point FranciscoD_
20:21:10 <FranciscoD_> but the hubs mock ups dont' have anything for newbies
20:21:22 <FranciscoD_> (from what I remember and understood)
20:21:55 <FranciscoD_> theyre like a fedora intraweb - to make it easier to follow the happenings of all the teams and so on
20:21:57 <mailga> Hub it's an integrated syste for fas members
20:22:02 <FranciscoD_> yea
20:22:23 <FranciscoD_> with lots of information coming from fedmsg/datagrepper
20:22:45 <mailga> but we cannot have the wiki working syde by side with hubs,
20:23:02 <FranciscoD_> I don't know what the plan for the wiki is
20:23:10 <mailga> mee too.
20:23:13 <FranciscoD_> I'm sure things like packaging guidelines will still stay on the wiki
20:23:38 <randomuser> this group might be more productive coming up with ideas for people, instead of technologies
20:24:25 <mailga> randomuser: right, so my idea is take ownership of the future join.fp.o page.
20:24:48 <FranciscoD_> I'm a bit slow today - friday night and all that. randomuser - would you have an example for "ideas for people"?
20:25:01 <randomuser> nevar!
20:25:31 <randomuser> but seriously, a little bit of personal interaction seems to help a lot of people get some initial momentum
20:25:37 <FranciscoD_> yea
20:25:50 <FranciscoD_> I was thinking of monthly "come talk to fedora" sessions
20:25:51 <jflory7> My question is how would the join.fp.o page be different than just the whatcanidoforfedora.org page?
20:26:37 <FranciscoD_> ideally, whatcanidoforfedora should be the main landing page, i.e., join.fp.o
20:26:38 <randomuser> so I'm thinking about ways to approach people about contribution, or get approached, and best handle those initial interactions
20:27:10 <FranciscoD_> randomuser: ++
20:27:22 <mailga> randomuser: without a merge of join pages this is difficult IMHO.
20:27:34 * randomuser nods
20:27:39 <FranciscoD_> sort of why I thought making an official "join day" type of thing would be a start
20:28:01 <mailga> FranciscoD_: in which way?
20:28:18 <randomuser> I'm all for better integration, but don't have time for the work so I'm trying to focus on other things; just tell me to be quiet :)
20:28:29 <FranciscoD_> mailga: the join pages require quite a bit of coordination. I wouldn't want to begin working on them until we've decided on whether we're combining differnt teams processess and all that
20:29:32 <mailga> FranciscoD_: right. The first step.
20:29:55 <randomuser> if we want better join pages, perhaps we could go through team/sig intro content on the wiki, one by one, and improve it for them?
20:30:01 <randomuser> we could start with docs!
20:30:31 <mailga> randomuser: please explain it to me.
20:31:04 <FranciscoD_> mailga: the "join day" is basically a day each month where we'll get as many contributors as possible to hang out in one place, wherever it is - hangouts or irc or wherever
20:31:26 <FranciscoD_> and then we'll scream about it all over the place and try to get newbies to come in and speak to them
20:31:40 <FranciscoD_> randomuser: ++ to improve join pages
20:31:40 <mailga> FranciscoD_: how we could spread this event?
20:32:15 <FranciscoD_> mailga: that's where we don't do very well - blogging, fedoramagazine, mailing lists, catch hold of community members that you know
20:32:45 <FranciscoD_> if decause_airplane is working on a university outreach program already, get him to inform the uni about these slots and so on
20:32:46 <randomuser> I think it's important to have something to *do* on such days, even if no new folks show up
20:32:54 <FranciscoD_> ++
20:33:11 <randomuser> that way if they do show up, it's to a thing happening and not an awkward quiet room vibe
20:33:16 <FranciscoD_> we could walk them through easy fix tasks?
20:33:17 <mailga> randomuser: that's what I was guessing.
20:33:39 <FranciscoD_> that way we incentivise the community too?
20:33:53 <FranciscoD_> got simple stuff that everyone's too busy to do?
20:34:01 <FranciscoD_> get newbies to do it for you once a month
20:34:06 <FranciscoD_> sort of?
20:34:17 <mailga> the easyfix part was a point of discussion at Flock.
20:34:31 <randomuser> if you're talking once a month, we could rotate through team features
20:34:38 <FranciscoD_> yea
20:34:40 <FranciscoD_> totally
20:34:52 <FranciscoD_> its like the docs hours you do
20:34:54 <FranciscoD_> or the test days
20:35:00 <randomuser> like around alpha, do QA, talk about what they do, how, what's going in in the release schedule, etc
20:35:01 <FranciscoD_> just more tailored to newbies
20:35:05 <FranciscoD_> ++
20:35:06 <mailga> sort of test-days?
20:35:12 <FranciscoD_> #idea integrate with release tasks
20:35:16 <FranciscoD_> #undo
20:35:16 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: IDEA by FranciscoD_ at 20:35:12 : integrate with release tasks
20:35:24 <FranciscoD_> #idea integrate "jon days" with release tasks
20:35:28 <FranciscoD_> #undo
20:35:28 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: IDEA by FranciscoD_ at 20:35:24 : integrate "jon days" with release tasks
20:35:32 <FranciscoD_> *facepalm*
20:35:35 <FranciscoD_> #idea integrate "join days" with release tasks
20:35:42 * mailga :-D
20:35:54 <FranciscoD_> do you folks think this is worth working on?
20:36:02 <randomuser> I absolutely do
20:36:20 <randomuser> well, maybe not release tasks per se, at this point, but team tasks
20:36:22 <mailga> yes it is, but we need to involve people from groups.
20:36:29 <FranciscoD_> randomuser: ++
20:36:33 <jflory7> I definitely agree with the team task join days.
20:36:36 <randomuser> being selective will allow us to work with them on planning
20:36:42 <FranciscoD_> mailga: well, that's why we hang a carrot
20:36:53 <FranciscoD_> carrot being "get some work done for the team"
20:37:17 <mailga> ok, +1
20:38:11 * mailga asked to robyduck to join us, let's see
20:38:15 <FranciscoD_> ok, I'll take up this task
20:38:24 <FranciscoD_> #chair robyduck
20:38:24 <zodbot> Current chairs: FranciscoD_ jflory7 mailga randomuser robyduck
20:38:49 <mailga> hi robyduck a question for you
20:38:58 <robyduck> hey all
20:38:59 <mailga> if you can reply of course
20:39:34 <mailga> with fedora-hubs wich kind of join page you have in mind?
20:40:23 <robyduck> oh, nice question, but we don't have a final answer yet
20:40:36 <robyduck> there are some ideas but...
20:40:38 <FranciscoD_> rather, is anything planned for newbies? a newbie facing "view"?
20:41:23 <robyduck> well, hubs is mainly thought for contributors, a sort of Intranet
20:41:29 <FranciscoD_> ++
20:41:40 <FranciscoD_> so I didnt mess that up then ^_^
20:41:43 <robyduck> but yes, there will be of course pages for joining too
20:41:53 <mailga> so no one aoutside fas account?
20:42:35 <robyduck> one of the ideas is to have a sort of landing page where people can get the most important links/apps
20:42:55 <robyduck> similar, bt not for the layout to apps.fpo
20:43:02 <FranciscoD_> ++
20:43:10 <robyduck> FranciscoD_: no you didn't :)
20:43:20 <FranciscoD_> so is there a possibility that something like whatcanidoforfedora would link to these team join pages on the hubs? You know?
20:43:52 <robyduck> mailga: there will be probably a few pages without fas account, the rest is like facebook
20:44:17 <mailga> yes I remember MO's mockups.
20:44:18 <FranciscoD_> well, to contribute to almost any team in Fedora, a FAS account is required, right?
20:44:52 <robyduck> so if you click on something contributor tageted, you will be asked if you have an account. You will be able to create your account also diectly from there
20:45:04 <FranciscoD_> so, we could have a first "view" that says "Looking to contribute to Fedora? Quickly set up an FAS account to get started!" and then that could give them access to the hubs, and the pages that walk them through the process
20:45:17 <robyduck> yeh
20:46:27 <robyduck> and you will also be able to have a look at whatcanidoforfedora.org
20:46:42 <robyduck> so just to get a first overview
20:46:56 <robyduck> that's the plan
20:47:18 <FranciscoD_> sounds awesome
20:47:31 <FranciscoD_> I think the new hubs will greatly improve the join process
20:47:38 <robyduck> awesome work too ;)
20:47:44 <FranciscoD_> ++
20:47:46 * FranciscoD_ is excited
20:47:46 <robyduck> yes hopefully
20:47:57 <mailga> robyduck: and the wiki? I'll be alive?
20:48:06 <FranciscoD_> robyduck: we'll wait for you folks to put this up and then bother you with modifications :P
20:48:30 <mailga> s/I'll/it will
20:48:34 <robyduck> but they should mainly improve the comunication between contributors, the project itself and the groups they are contributing to
20:49:16 <robyduck> mailga: yes, sure, the wiki will be cleaned up a bit, but it will live for many other years
20:49:51 <mailga> but no more handled, right?
20:50:29 <robyduck> can you rephrase?
20:50:54 <mailga> I meant no more updated, sorry.
20:51:41 <robyduck> the wiki should be updated to a sort of rolling release (I guess that's the plan of mediawiki), dcs will all go to docs.fpo, and other stuff will go to hubs. But there is still much content in the wiki
20:51:58 <robyduck> and yes, userpages theoretically could also go to hubs
20:52:01 * FranciscoD_ thinks there's way too much info on the wiki to phase it out completely so soon
20:52:05 <FranciscoD_> yea
20:52:24 <robyduck> that wuld make sense and would also be nicer
20:52:30 <robyduck> would*
20:52:31 <FranciscoD_> robyduck: but stuff like packaging guidelines and info on updates-testing etc will stay on the wiki, right?
20:52:46 * robyduck nods
20:53:35 <robyduck> FranciscoD_: this is probably one of the best examples where the wiki is really useful
20:53:48 <mailga> FranciscoD_: this means that the merge of the join pages is a nonsense job.
20:54:12 <FranciscoD_> mailga: well, some stuff can be merged and improved
20:54:24 <FranciscoD_> but *detailed* functioning of the groups may still require the wiki
20:54:27 <robyduck> hubs are the reason why we don't have any join page on the actual websites, just a redirect to the wiki
20:55:01 * robyduck means join.fpo is a redirect to the wiki now
20:55:39 <FranciscoD_> mailga: as randomuser said earlier, we should leave the tech bits for the time being
20:55:44 <FranciscoD_> quite a few changes coming
20:56:03 <mailga> robyduck: do you think we can also edit the fp.o with a banner for any "join day"?
20:56:05 <FranciscoD_> and until we see how they change things, us merging join pages and all doesn't make too much sense
20:56:23 <robyduck> FranciscoD_: we have also a developer protal now, should go live with F23
20:56:43 <mailga> FranciscoD_: of course
20:56:50 <FranciscoD_> robyduck: ++
20:57:07 <FranciscoD_> Ive been keeping an eye on the staging instance :)
20:57:40 <robyduck> ah ok, there is still some discussion of how to make this working best (infra side)
20:57:45 <FranciscoD_> aye
20:57:53 <FranciscoD_> and I'm waiting to see what content goes up on it
20:58:06 <FranciscoD_> if its like fedoramagazine but with articles for contributors, it won't do much for newbies
20:58:23 * robyduck had the staging link somewhere...uff, but doesn't have it handy now
20:58:52 * mailga thinks robyduck needs a beer....
20:59:02 <robyduck> FranciscoD_: no, it's for developers only. It's very specific
20:59:07 <FranciscoD_> http://developer.fedorainfracloud.org/
20:59:24 <robyduck> that's it
20:59:55 <robyduck> it will parse fedmag articles, yes
21:00:05 <robyduck> similar to start.fpo
21:00:47 <FranciscoD_> not too helpful for newbies then
21:00:57 <FranciscoD_> right
21:01:09 <FranciscoD_> I think the "join day" idea seems to be the best thing to get started with at the moment
21:01:18 <FranciscoD_> what do you think mailga randomuser jflory7 ?
21:01:28 * mailga nods
21:01:55 <randomuser> I think it's an achievable and productive thing
21:02:24 <mailga> but before we have to find group users available (just like robyduck, so nice....)
21:02:24 <robyduck> what do you mean with "join day"? Sorry, I never heard about it
21:02:48 <robyduck> like a test day?
21:02:48 <randomuser> robyduck, we proposed doing something like qa's test days, only to educate people about specific groups in fedora
21:02:58 <robyduck> aha
21:03:11 <robyduck> a sort of classroom for newbies
21:03:12 <FranciscoD_> get contributors from a team and interested newbies together
21:03:12 <randomuser> here is what websites does, here is their tools, here are their repos, here is how you annoy robyduck if there are problems
21:03:14 <randomuser> that kind of thing
21:03:20 <FranciscoD_> :D
21:03:26 <jflory7> I also think the join-day is the best place to start.
21:03:35 <robyduck> randomuser: lol
21:03:48 <FranciscoD_> a classroom, but we won't *teach* like a class - we'll have tasks (easyfix types) and they can work on them
21:03:56 <robyduck> do you also show how to get a beer?
21:03:59 <robyduck> :D
21:04:04 <FranciscoD_> that way they join, do something that gives them confidence, and also get to meet some contributors
21:04:13 <randomuser> robyduck, that's part of the self-reward program!
21:04:16 <FranciscoD_> robyduck: that's the first thing we'll show them - how to buy rounds of beer ;)
21:04:20 <robyduck> haha
21:04:39 <jflory7> Curious... not sure if this would be the time to consider it or maybe after doing a test run, but what do we think about targeting the join days to specific groups of people, e.g. a student day?
21:04:45 * robyduck likes this idea, sounds promising
21:05:02 <randomuser> we can do some preliminary planning with $group to get the required info, and if nobody shows up, we can go over that group's wiki content
21:05:11 <FranciscoD_> ++
21:05:12 <FranciscoD_> jflory7: ++
21:05:14 <jflory7> Might be a good way to get some university students to step in and start to get a little involved
21:05:31 <mailga> jflory7: the problem is the same IMO, spreading the news.
21:05:32 <FranciscoD_> thats where decause_airplane 's commops plans of university outreach could merge in
21:05:46 <jflory7> ^
21:06:00 <randomuser> jflory7, do you get the sense your fellow students would feel engaged in a fedora-style online event, or would we need bookfaces and skypes or whatever you kids use these days?
21:06:38 <mailga> thats why I would havve a banner on getfedora.o
21:06:51 <jflory7> Hmmm...
21:07:40 <mailga> and that's the reason randomuser will send a lifetime supply of beer to robyduck
21:08:02 <randomuser> ha, you caught me not paying attention :P
21:08:43 * mailga thinks that randomuser and robyduck on the same sentence is something really dangerous.
21:08:56 <jflory7> It's hard to answer. I think an online event might work well for getting some kind of initial involvement, like I know here at RIT I see a lot of students who only will use IRC if they have to and there's no other choice, but at the same time, I think that in-person events is effective for getting them there and keeping them there.
21:08:57 <robyduck> well, if you want to do a classroom, then on IRC I guess. Not sure if a videoconference is useful here, but bluejeans can handle many users (needs to have a RH employee to use its account)
21:09:33 <jflory7> Not sure if events specifically is something relevant to this discussion, but I like the idea of considering a kind of "Join" event at hackathons / kind of things to get people interested and looking at the different sides of Fedora.
21:10:22 <robyduck> once we have hubs we'll be able to have a nicer UI for IRC (waartaa)
21:11:03 <FranciscoD_> ++
21:11:24 <FranciscoD_> jflory7: join "booths" and so on at events is a great idea
21:11:57 <FranciscoD_> we sorta do them informally already
21:12:10 <FranciscoD_> but actually having a booth would be better, especially if the event is user facing
21:12:11 <jflory7> decause had his "Badge-athon" at Software Freedom Day @ the Rochester Inst. of Tech, which I think could be (more or less) a Join sort of event.
21:12:21 <robyduck> FranciscoD_: I think all our booths at events are kinda "join-booths" in the end, no?
21:12:41 <mailga> robyduck ++
21:12:44 <FranciscoD_> robyduck: well, yea, but they don't actually ever say "I work for QA, come help me! I'll show you how to get started"
21:12:55 <FranciscoD_> they're more like "here's a fedora booth, you can ask us whatever you want"
21:13:17 <mailga> FranciscoD_: we should brief ambassadors for that.
21:13:57 <FranciscoD_> probably something that'll be better done if we lead by example
21:13:59 <FranciscoD_> as in, do it at an event or two
21:14:19 <FranciscoD_> and then it should catch on if we get contributors that way
21:15:14 * mailga thinks about a "we want you".....
21:15:21 <FranciscoD_> yep
21:15:22 <FranciscoD_> and so on
21:15:55 <robyduck> sounds very much like "yes we can"...:)
21:16:17 <FranciscoD_> :D
21:16:38 <FranciscoD_> ok, I think we're a bit over our time already
21:16:46 <FranciscoD_> We do have a few ideas that we want to work on
21:17:00 <FranciscoD_> How about I summarise and send a nice mail to the ML, and we'll begin working on details?
21:17:13 <jflory7> Sounds great to me.
21:17:29 <mailga> great.
21:18:13 <FranciscoD_> nice
21:18:21 <FranciscoD_> should I end meeting for today then?
21:18:25 <mailga> and ok, I'll give a beer to robyduck for the informations he gave.
21:18:42 <robyduck> \o/
21:18:53 <FranciscoD_> hahaha
21:19:01 <FranciscoD_> well, flock will be in paris next year hopefully
21:19:10 <FranciscoD_> we'll all get together and drink awesome french wine ;)
21:19:13 <robyduck> or Toulouse
21:19:17 * mailga will ask the payback to FranciscoD_ jflory7 and randomuser asap.
21:19:32 <FranciscoD_> robyduck: as long as its in emea, I'll make it :P
21:19:39 <FranciscoD_> I'll take a holiday if I have to ;)
21:19:50 <robyduck> FranciscoD_: I *will* be in EMEA
21:19:56 <jflory7> Maybe if I'm lucky I end up over there for next Flock... this year's was fantastic!
21:20:23 <FranciscoD_> ++
21:20:29 <FranciscoD_> right, ending then
21:20:32 <FranciscoD_> #endmeeting