14:57:20 <mchua> #startmeeting
14:57:20 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Sep 16 14:57:20 2009 UTC.  The chair is mchua. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:57:20 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
14:57:33 * mchua trying to inculcate a culture of logging fascinating IRC convos and then sending logs and summaries to mktg list ;)
14:57:47 <mchua> #topic Marketing leadership turnover
14:58:14 <mchua> This is one of those "wayyyy in the future" things, but looking forward... it's probably a good idea for me to Not Be Running Stuff a couple years from now
14:58:27 <mchua> specifically, I'd like to have someone with an actual Marketing background running Marketing, if at all possible.
14:58:33 * mchua is an engineer trying to learn a lot about Marketing.
14:58:39 <mchua> F15 seems like a pretty good target.
14:58:59 <stickster> I think it's pretty reasonable too
14:58:59 <mchua> stickster: you mentioned that recruiting for non-technical leadership positions has historically been more challenging?
14:59:22 <stickster> Yes, undoubtedly due to our engineer-heavy community (which is not a negative thing btw)
14:59:31 <mchua> (hey, I'm an engineer, I like it ;)
14:59:40 <stickster> Karsten and I experienced that in Docs, and you're seeing the same thing in Mktg
14:59:51 <stickster> Ambassadors are sort of the one glaring exception
14:59:57 <mchua> I was noticing that we don't seem to have a regular cycle of leadership transitioning or a notion of how that happens for a couple teams (er, most of them, really)
15:00:22 * mchua cheers for Ambassadors
15:00:28 <mchua> O dpm
15:00:32 <mchua> argh, typing fail
15:00:57 <mchua> I don't know how you and Sparks and quaid worked it out for Docs, but that seems to have worked well!
15:01:14 <stickster> I think in Ambassadors things work out because the precise nature of the team is to do most things oneself regionally
15:01:28 <mchua> Less so with Marketing?
15:01:39 <stickster> Marketing has been a tough nut to crack
15:01:51 <stickster> Max, Greg, and others have all spent time trying to lead Marketing
15:02:39 <mchua> I think one thing is that a Marketing team led by tech folks tends to attract a few tech folks and then the tools/processes we use are from the tech world
15:02:42 <mchua> (which is ok)
15:02:54 <mchua> but I have to constantly remember, for instance, that Trac is not a normal thing for people to have seen
15:03:04 <stickster> Yes, as long as they're set up for use by Markety folks
15:03:08 * mchua nods
15:03:18 <mchua> that's why I've been pouring so much effort into infrastructure-type things
15:03:31 <mchua> it's hard to on-board new folks if they have to climb a mountain of new tools to get in the door
15:03:49 <stickster> Yup, because you do make a gain after cresting that hill
15:03:56 <mchua> I'd like new Marketing volunteers to be able to focus on Marketing, not on learning 15 different platforms (I mean, asking them to be on IRC is quite a bit already)
15:04:21 <mchua> rbergeron and others who've Done It Anyway are totally my heroes.
15:04:54 <mchua> And since we have such a tech-heavy mktg team right now, it's in some ways easier for us to turn our talents towards putting up infra to make it easier for people whose core expertise is marketing
15:04:59 <mchua> (well, for me, at least)
15:05:02 <stickster> Right
15:05:33 <mchua> But the flip side of that is that release deliverables have gotten a lot less priority than they should.
15:05:39 <stickster> But at the same time we want to make sure that we are setting out easy-to-hit targets for people who are not so outspoken on list or showing up at meetings, and give them something they can do, even possibly low-tech
15:05:42 * mchua nods.
15:05:51 <stickster> I think we both just said the same thing, *jinx!
15:05:52 <stickster> :-)
15:06:14 <stickster> The podcasts are something that went very well last time, but only Jack and I worked on them
15:06:33 <stickster> And the podcast actually could just as easily be a print interview
15:06:39 * mchua nods.
15:06:44 <stickster> We went with a podcast and an article built around the same topic
15:06:54 <stickster> Could just as easily be either/or
15:07:01 <mchua> I sent this out last night: https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-ambassadors-list/2009-September/msg00141.html
15:07:15 <mchua> it was a call to ambassadors to write stuff
15:07:39 <stickster> Right
15:07:55 <mchua> I don't want to take ambassador-ing bandwidth away from Ambassadors, but if they also want to do mktg but haven't had the chance yet... at least that was the idea
15:08:08 <stickster> That definitely fits into the scheme of cutting off manageable pieces and spreading them around
15:08:11 <mchua> kinda goes with your idea of using Ambassadors to recruit more marketing types at non-technical events.
15:08:15 * mchua nods.
15:08:15 <stickster> I think the way to think about Marketing at this point in time is:
15:08:27 <stickster> 1. release deliverables
15:08:35 <stickster> 2. content development for FI
15:08:41 <stickster> 3. platform development for FI
15:08:44 <mchua> in that order?
15:09:08 <stickster> 2 and 3 might be able to be rearranged, but 2 in my mind is useful whether or not we get 3 finished on time
15:09:12 * mchua nods
15:09:28 <mchua> 2 is hard to do without 3, and we're so close that I'd hate to not make it this time
15:09:31 <mchua> but yeah, you're right
15:09:42 <stickster> So I'd leave that to you rather than be all micro-managey
15:09:52 <mchua> I think that covers all but 2 of the q's I wanted to ask.
15:09:53 <stickster> But it's vital that we have some sort of saturation with release of F12
15:10:09 * mchua pastes list of topics for posterity
15:10:12 <mchua> saturation?
15:10:19 <mchua> 1.
15:10:19 <mchua> * F15 leadership turnover target
15:10:19 <mchua> 2.
15:10:19 <mchua> * Recruiting: can Ambassadors help?
15:10:19 <mchua> 3.
15:10:21 <mchua> * Marketing tools
15:10:23 <mchua> 4.
15:10:26 <mchua> * ticket tracker
15:10:28 <mchua> 5.
15:10:29 <stickster> media... i.e. print, audio, soc-net
15:10:31 <mchua> * weekly meetings
15:10:33 <mchua> 6.
15:10:36 <mchua> * Getting more Marketers into Marketing
15:10:38 <mchua> 7.
15:10:41 <mchua> * Marketing contributions to upstream (software we use, but also... marketingopensource.org?)
15:10:44 <mchua> 8.
15:10:46 <mchua> * overworking people: Let's Not Do That!
15:10:49 <mchua> 9.
15:10:51 <mchua> * Ambassadors
15:10:54 <mchua> 10.
15:10:56 <mchua> * Release deliverables
15:10:59 <mchua> ouch. Sorry about the flood; irssi and xchat paste differently, apparently.
15:11:05 * stickster sorry for messing up list
15:11:05 <mchua> stickster: lots of F12 hullaballoo between beta and launch and right after launch?
15:11:12 <stickster> Yes, exactly
15:11:14 <mchua> naw, it's good, list is done and in one continuous piece.
15:11:18 <mchua> Yokeydokey.
15:11:22 <stickster> Some of that is work I can do with the internal RH PR team
15:11:32 <mchua> Well, if there's one thing I know how to be, it's contagiously excited... so, yeah, will work on this.
15:11:46 <stickster> But for Marketing to be successful as a community project, we need uptake from individuals externally on the pieces they can do
15:11:56 <mchua> yup.
15:12:20 <mchua> so doing more things like the email to ambassadors and the talking points writing sprint later today
15:12:30 <mchua> and less things like "I spent 3 hours packaging a zikula module for fun"
15:12:55 <stickster> One thing I would like you to also be thinking about, and talking about to Kara Schiltz, our Red Hat PR contact for Fedora, is how to best leverage RH international press in coordination with NDN
15:13:11 <stickster> We tried this for F11 but the idea came way too late in the game
15:13:16 <mchua> for later down the line: the two things I don't think we touched on yet are "not burning out people" and "maybe having an upstream marketing community for OSS projects in general"
15:13:21 * mchua nods
15:13:26 * mchua sets reminders to self
15:13:41 <mchua> #action mchua talk with Kara Schlitz about how to leverage RH's intl press resources in coordination for NDN
15:14:11 <stickster> That would be something under the release deliverables section
15:14:11 <mchua> NDN is moixs, who has been out of commision lately due to finishing thesis, but I'll ping
15:14:19 <mchua> #action mchua ping moixs about NDN
15:14:52 <mchua> stickster: ok - in terms of timing, when would you want the F12 press stuff to hit / timeline for working on that?
15:15:02 * mchua guessing those are also questions for Kara et al
15:15:12 <stickster> Correct
15:15:26 * mchua has also been learning the difference between PR and Marketing
15:15:33 <stickster> But typically there's about 5+ business days heads-up needed for translation and such
15:15:38 <mchua> Gotcha.
15:15:49 <stickster> Because if we want, for example, localized press releases, int'l PR needs time to get the content translated
15:16:04 <mchua> stickster: do we need to go through RH's translation team or can we use the Fedora translation team?
15:16:16 <stickster> I think that's up for discussion
15:16:28 * mchua thinks "of course we want localized press releases!" and then thinks "oi, need to make sure people can handle new users/contributors"
15:16:34 <mchua> ok, I'll ask Kara when I talk with her about this
15:16:42 <stickster> I'm happy to participate in that discussion too
15:16:46 <mchua> that would be great.
15:16:57 <mchua> stickster: you have a regular call with her already, right? maybe I could pop in right before or right after that?
15:17:08 <stickster> I tried doing this with Jack and Caroline last release, but as I said the timing was just too tight
15:17:21 <mchua> (or if you have one this week, pop by her office instead of dialing in?)
15:17:23 <stickster> mchua: Yes, but our next call is next Monday and you'll be in RHCE
15:17:23 * mchua nods
15:17:27 <mchua> Drat.
15:17:34 <mchua> Ok. Email it is, then.
15:17:51 <stickster> We could set up something later this week but that's starting to look pretty full for me already
15:17:57 * mchua suspects her week of absence during RHCE training will do more good than anything else for kicking the tires to focus less on FI and more on deliverables
15:18:13 <mchua> stickster: no worries, I'll see if I can catch Kara while I"m in RDU and we'll figure something out
15:18:52 <mchua> stickster: in terms of not burning people out, I think backing off from FI a bit and concentrating on deliverables will help to spread the load
15:19:22 <mchua> stickster: not sure if there is anything else we can do... itbegins really /is/ our zikula expert, and mizmo /is/ our design guru, and it's hard to find ways to alleviate that pressure on them and others in the next 5 days
15:19:42 <mchua> they've been doing an *amazing* job for FI; I can't thank them enough
15:21:04 <stickster> Absolutely agreed
15:21:06 <mchua> this may be a "we need to figure this out at FUDCon" thing (if Simon can be there) but if zikula is going to be a big part of our infra, we need to make it easier for other people to chip in.
15:21:19 <stickster> What I'm hoping is that itbegins also can take some of what we're discovering in the skinning process, and bring it back upstream
15:21:35 * mchua nods
15:21:47 <stickster> i.e., if our designer, who's pretty freakin' awesome, is having these problems, there may be code changes they can/should make to improve the Zikula product itself
15:21:58 * mchua nods
15:22:47 * stickster has itbegins on the budget right now for a FUDCon trip, but we're already over the budget a bit
15:23:02 * mchua nods.
15:23:16 * mchua notes that spevack is right here if we want to ask him about budget anything.
15:23:33 <stickster> Just make sure he's keeping a watch on the FUDCon Toronto 2009 budget page
15:23:48 <mchua> #action mchua talk with itbegins when the dust clears about how to bring things upstream to improve zikula (based on stuff like mizmo's feedback)
15:23:51 * mchua nods
15:23:53 <mchua> will do
15:23:54 <stickster> and anything else pertinent that he cares about wrt. FUDCon
15:24:14 <stickster> I think FUDCon would be a great opportunity to do big FI leapahead work
15:24:37 <stickster> But it will depend partly on someone driving it, and if you're splitting your attention with EDU stuff that's going to be difficult.
15:24:39 <mchua> Ok. The notion of an upstream "open source marketing" community is also one of those long term dreams of mine now, so it'll be one of those floating-in-the-background ideas for a bit, but if there are any particular people/projects/etc you'd poke about that, lemme know
15:25:01 <mchua> probably right after F12 launches when we go "sooo how did marketing do this time?" and write up a reflection and then go "so how can other projects learn from our mistakes?" (and trimphs)
15:25:15 <mchua> rbergeron has been thinking a bit about this, and how it would be very helpful
15:25:44 <mchua> esp since this "marketing for an OSS project, by an OSS community" thing is still sort of new and weird (it seems like)
15:25:58 <mchua> but that's more of a side note to mention than anything else.
15:26:02 * mchua EOF
15:26:42 * stickster mainly EOF too
15:26:50 <mchua> stickster: any other thoughts? Thanks for listening to me ramble on; this has helped me get a lot more clarity around where we should head for F12
15:26:56 <mchua> and when we'll get another chance to think beyond F12 more
15:27:01 <mchua> ("not right now")
15:27:24 <mchua> ("after deliverables are building momentum")
15:27:32 <stickster> One sign of a healthy Marketing team as we head into F13 is going to be looking at the list of who's handling items, and seeing new names
15:27:57 <stickster> We've attracted a couple people this time around, like dufflebag and rbergeron, who are going to make a big difference
15:28:10 <stickster> So we should be trying to grow that list with another new name or two each month
15:28:33 <stickster> That makes the pool for future leadership wider!
15:28:37 <mchua> Yay!
15:28:45 * mchua would love new folks to on-board.
15:28:57 <mchua> hm. should think about making recruiting collateral for Ambassadors.
15:29:09 <mchua> #action recruiting collateral/strategy stuff for Ambassadors
15:29:21 <mchua> okeydokey.
15:29:25 <mchua> I think I'm good.
15:29:26 <stickster> There's a sort of circular problem there... i.e. where do we go to find them?  (New places.)  How do we get there?  (Spend some money.)  How can we justify more money?  (Show growth.)  How do we show growth?  (New faces driving new stuff.)
15:29:31 * mchua nods.
15:29:51 * stickster just stating the obvious now, so EOF.
15:29:58 * mchua EOF
15:30:02 <mchua> thanks, Paul.
15:30:07 <stickster> Any time Mel!
15:30:20 <mchua> I shall post the notes from this to the list and then go on my merry way and figure out the rest of what I"m doing with spevack. :)
15:30:27 <mchua> will let you know when I talk with Kara.
15:30:32 * mchua closing meeting
15:30:35 <stickster> That would be great.
15:30:42 <mchua> #endmeeting