20:01:55 <mchua> #startmeeting
20:01:56 <zodbot> Meeting started Fri Feb 26 20:01:55 2010 UTC.  The chair is mchua. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
20:01:58 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
20:02:03 <mchua> I want to log this one for posterity. :)
20:02:10 * rbergeron waves for posterity
20:02:20 <mchua> For background for log-readers: we're working on
20:02:23 <mchua> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Introduce_yourself_to_the_marketing_group
20:02:28 <mchua> This was... um, very spontaneous
20:02:54 <mchua> #link http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/marketing/2010-February/011851.html
20:02:54 * rbergeron waves for being the poster child for opening arms to new community members!
20:02:57 <mchua> has the history
20:03:06 <mchua> wooo!
20:03:33 <nmarques> mchua and rest, something that came through my mind some time ago... would it be wise to try to present Fedora as a "beacon of light" in the open source community ? Possible cultural,community, etc etc pros and cons ?
20:03:34 <mchua> nmarques had some thoughts (as our newest member, I believe) on how to ease the way for more new folks
20:03:47 <mchua> nmarques: Well, we do have the "First" foundation. :)
20:03:50 <nmarques> mchua, ? I did ?
20:03:54 <rrix> mchua: add the IRC channel to the "welcome to the mailing list" or the join page as _the_best_ way to get involved
20:04:14 <rrix> (which imo is true)
20:04:25 <mchua> nmarques: Yep. Pretty much everything you've commented on in this channel since you joined has been an enlightening "oh wow, I didn't think about that before" moment for me, at least.
20:04:41 * mchua has long since lost the "what is it like to get started with FOSS contribution?" point of view
20:04:54 <rbergeron> rrix: it is, but realistically, we proably have people who want to do marketing who have never heard of IRC
20:04:57 <rrix> and of course I can't open the dingdang wiki... 8kicks wifi*
20:05:00 <mchua> (well, sort of. I remember mine pretty well because it was *very* painful, but I am definitely not a n00b any more)
20:05:04 <mchua> (unfortunately)
20:05:12 <rbergeron> most of us are nerd converts to marketing and used IRC before we got here.
20:05:38 <rrix> rbergeron: webchat, maybe? (no setup required, just say hi, etc) until they are comfortable
20:05:41 <nmarques> rbergeron, I'm gonna do a nasty comment... they have not eared of IRC, but I'm sure they've eared about mIRC (/slap)
20:05:41 <rbergeron> isn't there a web irc client?
20:05:47 <threethirty> mchua: its like those 80's movies where you are the new kid in school, thats what joining is like :)
20:05:49 <rrix> #link webchat.freenode.net
20:05:50 <mchua> Yeah, I tried putting a "how to use webchat!" screenshot at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Marketing_meetings#Meeting_details but that's new and afaik has never been used by anyone.
20:05:59 <mchua> And it's not part of the Join process.
20:06:03 * rbergeron nods
20:06:09 <nmarques> rbergeron, there are several web clients we can even use on the webpage (would prolly help on meetings)
20:06:17 <mchua> We're also *just* getting to the point where we have constant activity in the Marketing channel for multiple timezones
20:06:25 <rbergeron> yeah
20:06:25 <mchua> threethirty: something like that, yeah :)
20:06:27 <rbergeron> there's always someone here
20:06:32 * mchua was nervous when joining Marketing, too.
20:06:36 <rbergeron> ewven during european time....
20:06:39 <rrix> and the mchuas who never sleep help :P
20:06:45 <rbergeron> cuz mchua and i are here at 4am
20:06:46 <mchua> heh, I'm trying to learn how to rest more
20:06:47 <rbergeron> rrix is here at 2am
20:06:51 <rbergeron> lol
20:06:52 <rbergeron> :)
20:07:00 <rbergeron> "we dont need no stinkin timezones"
20:07:04 <rrix> rbergeron: shh, i was working on homeworkz :P
20:07:17 <rbergeron> although, i still think it would be awesome to have a rotating timezone meeting once a month or so
20:07:19 <mchua> and then we have wonderer and hiemanshu and that covers us almost 'round the clock.
20:07:22 <rbergeron> rrix: a likely story
20:07:23 <rbergeron> :)
20:07:25 <mchua> rbergeron: +1 for rotating timezone
20:07:35 <rbergeron> i mean... hmm,
20:07:36 <rbergeron> amit
20:07:40 <rbergeron> aka "duh" on irc
20:07:48 <rbergeron> wrote that awesome article on virt stuff
20:08:05 <rbergeron> and i see him on, and i'm sure he would be happy to contribute or come to meetings to talk about stuf
20:08:08 <heffer> i'm here most of the time too :) but i think i don't count as marketing
20:08:23 <mchua> Also, people new to IRC might not know channel culture/etiquette - I've seen a lot of newcomers come in, say hi, wait 3 seconds, get no response, then leave
20:08:24 <rbergeron> but ... timezones!
20:08:48 <mchua> heffer: Lurkers are marketing too!
20:08:59 <heffer> \o/ :D
20:09:02 <rbergeron> there's never a bad time to pipe up and say
20:09:08 <rbergeron> OMG WHAT IS GOIN ON HERE!
20:09:18 <rbergeron> or chime in with your amazing idea :)
20:09:22 <mchua> "OMG WHAT IS GOIN ON HERE!"
20:09:23 <hiemanshu> mchua: oh btw its 1:45 AM here :)
20:09:30 <heffer> mchua, BBQ, as always :D
20:09:33 <nmarques> heffer, mind of 1 question quiz ?
20:09:57 <heffer> nmarques, 1 question quiz? :D what question would that be?
20:11:20 <nmarques> heffer, I'm not gonna do the question :), marketing is all about people, always :)
20:11:40 <nmarques> heffer, this to say, everyone's important and everyone's opinion is right at some point :)
20:11:59 <rrix> omgwtfbbq, i want bbq!
20:12:21 <heffer> a marketing BBQ would be nice. will i be funded my travel expensed?
20:12:27 <heffer> :P
20:12:34 <threethirty> wat bbq?!? is there caek?
20:12:41 <rbergeron> bbq cake.
20:12:50 <rbergeron> oh, wait, that's pretty foul sounding.
20:12:52 <nmarques> good question, what is bbq ? besides the memorex CD burner
20:12:59 <rbergeron> barbeque.
20:13:05 <heffer> ans girl scout cookies
20:13:10 <heffer> s/ans/and/
20:13:10 <threethirty> its delicious thats what it is
20:13:18 <rbergeron> as in, the meat that goes on the grill that gets basted with barbeque sauce.
20:13:20 * nmarques ducks and takes cover
20:13:21 <rbergeron> ribs.
20:13:25 <rbergeron> ummmmm.
20:13:56 <nmarques> I'm european :( I can't understand the essence behind "barbequeue" :(
20:13:58 <rbergeron> i think it was wonderer who wrote something yesterday about just hearing about girl scout cookies :)
20:14:21 <rbergeron> nmarques: it definitely has its roots here.
20:14:37 <rbergeron> although I'm pretty sure that humans as a species started out grilling food over a fire pit to eat it
20:14:47 <rbergeron> which .... is sort of where the idea comes from ;)
20:15:05 <rrix> nmarques: bbq is all that is  good in meat, embued with all that is good about sugar and sauces
20:15:32 <nmarques> rrix, you guys laugh on us because we use mayonese instead of ketchup :(
20:15:39 <rrix> on which?
20:15:45 <nmarques> fries
20:15:46 <rbergeron> fries
20:15:47 <rrix> depends ;)
20:15:55 <rrix> nmarques: I use mayo on my fries, it's awesome
20:16:02 * rbergeron luvs some mayo with belgian frites, yumm
20:16:05 <rrix> but mayo on bbq? prolly not
20:16:06 <AamirBhutto> Awee i use cheese :P
20:16:16 <rbergeron> cheese goes with everything
20:16:17 <hiemanshu> there is a py script to pull RSS, it runs when ever websites is built
20:16:17 <rbergeron> mmm
20:16:20 <threethirty> eeeeeewwww mayo on fries... thats why we changed the name to freedom fries :)
20:16:22 <hiemanshu> urgh wrong windows
20:16:23 <heffer> being european doesn't mean you can't understand the essence of BBQ :D
20:16:28 <hiemanshu> window**
20:16:28 <AamirBhutto> yeah almost everything rbergeron
20:16:30 <heffer> nmarques, are you french?
20:16:47 <rrix> threethirty: shush :P
20:16:48 <nmarques> heffer, no, they have been our natural enemies since always
20:16:58 <heffer> same here :P
20:16:59 <rrix> hiemanshu: how are those 20 frames working for you?
20:17:10 <nmarques> heffer, 2 months ago we celebrated 200 years of the end of the napoleonic invasions, where we repelled them :)
20:17:15 <nmarques> heffer, portuguese
20:17:55 <nmarques> heffer, I might understand that portuguese are not well seen in the US, but remember you see "portuguese" as the people from Madeira, and not really hardcore mainland people
20:18:12 <mchua> All right, folks, how does http://etherpad.com/marketing-intro look to you?
20:18:25 <mchua> I'm looking at it and it looks about ready for dumping to the wiki page and poking the marketing list
20:18:32 <heffer> nmarques, http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Churrasco :D
20:18:39 <mchua> and then trying it out by reintroducing ourselves so we can link to examples of its usage ;)
20:18:41 <nmarques> mchua, can I make a remark ?
20:18:47 <rbergeron> mchua: maybe we should be specific about having to join the list beore you can mail to it?
20:18:47 <heffer> nmarques, i see portuguese as those people from portugal :)
20:18:50 <nmarques> heffer, no no no
20:18:54 <nmarques> heffer, http://www.mirandesa.pt/Receitas/PostaMirandesa.jpg
20:19:07 <mchua> nmarques: go for it!
20:19:09 <rbergeron> or do you suppose most people understand that [[mailing list link for signing up]] is a prior step
20:19:17 <mchua> rbergeron: oh. Um... good call.
20:19:19 <mchua> *editedit*
20:19:21 <nmarques> heffer, the real stuff, barbequeue style, if ever visit us, you wanna visit the north of portugal, and you want to eat "Posta á Mirandesa" ;)
20:19:33 <nmarques> mchua, I think we should organize the document
20:19:37 <heffer> nmarques, okay. thanks for the hint :D
20:19:51 <nmarques> mchua, start with a introduction of our Marketing group
20:20:01 <nmarques> mchua, show the work done and link the most important things
20:20:08 <nmarques> mchua, and only then, ask for collaboration
20:20:12 <rbergeron> nmarques: i think the main wiki page covers that stuf.
20:20:28 <rbergeron> or do you not agree?
20:20:33 <nmarques> mchua, end the text with a brief description of the tools we use (and that we provide support)
20:20:47 <mchua> nmarques: It's a wiki. :) please do edit it to what you think would be better!
20:20:51 <nmarques> mchua, the introduction comes in the middle, and the visitor gets all in a single brainstorm
20:20:59 <nmarques> rbergeron, yes
20:21:22 <mchua> Ok, I'm moving stuff from etherpad to wiki
20:21:27 <mchua> I think most of the frantic/fast editing is done
20:21:31 <mchua> and people can tweak from there
20:21:59 <nmarques> rbergeron, its true also, but we should present ouserlfs first
20:22:01 * mchua looks at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Introduce_yourself_to_the_marketing_group formatting and winces
20:22:05 <mchua> Um... MEL FIX
20:22:19 <nmarques> rbergeron, a small 4/5 line text (including links)
20:23:03 <nmarques> rbergeron, I'm new as you know, things have been eased by mchua's, you and list help
20:23:57 <nmarques> rbergeron, new people will get same help, but we can give already a small feeling of what's going on :), we should also promote ourselfs as a marketing group to attract more marketing people, even just lurkers to join us
20:24:15 <nmarques> afk a couple of miutes, brb
20:24:29 <mchua> Okay, https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Introduce_yourself_to_the_marketing_group#Introduction_template
20:24:36 <AamirBhutto> :)
20:25:34 <hiemanshu> rrix: 20 frames?
20:26:36 <hiemanshu> Anyways I have to leave now, its 2AM, going to the lake with a couple of friends
20:26:52 <hiemanshu> will be back home around 8AM
20:27:15 <mchua> have fun, hiemanshu!
20:27:16 <rbergeron> uhhhhhhh
20:27:18 <rbergeron> lake at 2am?
20:27:31 <rrix> hiemanshu: in your irssi win
20:27:32 <hiemanshu> rbergeron: yes, we jam at this time, and its the best time to do so
20:27:42 <hiemanshu> rrix: its only 4 :P
20:27:42 <rrix> hiemanshu: see ya, have fun, stay outta trouble
20:27:54 <rrix> :P
20:27:55 <hiemanshu> rrix: me and outta trouble no way :P
20:27:56 <nmarques> back
20:28:04 <nmarques> should I edit on the etherpad or wiki ?
20:28:08 <hiemanshu> rbergeron: and we stay till the sun rises :)
20:28:08 <rrix> hiemanshu: well, stay out of jail ;)
20:28:23 <mchua> nmarques: wiki, now
20:28:26 <mchua> I just migrated stuff over.
20:28:43 <mchua> nmarques: I totally agree with your note that we should promote ourselves as a marketing group to get more marketing folks to join us
20:28:54 <mchua> but I don't know how to do that - which is why I'm glad you're here.
20:28:59 <nmarques> gonna edit some text
20:29:02 * mchua is a hacker who migrated to marketing-land
20:29:04 <mchua> nmarques: thanks!
20:29:25 <mchua> One of my biggest goals when I started doing Fedora Marketing was to get actual marketers in and working on Marketing
20:29:37 <mchua> because I'd seen FOSS marketing done two ways:
20:29:40 <hiemanshu> mchua: pl3as3 d0nt h4x0rz me
20:29:49 <nmarques> mchua, I am just a student and I have no experience ;)
20:29:49 * hiemanshu runs now
20:30:05 <mchua> (1) Hi, I'm an engineer and made something cool and... it... needs marketing, I'm not entirely sure what that is, but I... will try doing it anyway!
20:30:22 <mchua> (which is great, and I'd like more of that too - but we also need the marketers in here with the experience/background to help them do that)
20:30:55 <mchua> nmarques: ah, but you're studying how to do this, whereas I studied less useful-to-Marketing things like "signal processing" or "computer architecture."
20:30:58 <mchua> ;)
20:31:05 <nmarques> mchua, my former employer has a marketing department (research company) with 4 people, 1 Marketing Professional (for certification reasons), other 3 are engineering, and they run the show.
20:31:53 <nmarques> mchua, I dont favor theorical knowledge a lot, the world doesn't run based on theorical concepts :)
20:32:02 <mchua> or (2) "We are a shiny company that has been hired to SWOOP IN FROM ABOVE! on your FOSS project and dump a a bunch of shiny things on you! They look great, but you have no idea how and why we made them, so you can't make them yourselves after we leave! And since we're not really going to engage with the community we're going to leave now that we have finished making Shiny Things! Ta-ta!"
20:32:10 * mchua not so much a fan of (2)
20:32:28 <mchua> nmarques: Nice. :)
20:33:24 <nmarques> mchua, I don't understand why projects like GNOME, Fedora and many others don't contact universities for help
20:33:26 <mchua> nmarques: when you're done editing, let me know and I'll write a self-intro for myself so we have at least one example.
20:33:32 <nmarques> mchua, corporations do it ;)
20:34:02 <mchua> nmarques: That... is a long question, but the short answer I've seen is "because many of us don't know how to ask."
20:34:23 <mchua> And also because university classes - to work on something, they need sustained and consistent mentorship at regular times.
20:34:44 <mchua> Which volunteers sometimes can't build into their schedules. I need to be able to hack on what I want to hack on when I have the time to hack on it.
20:34:49 <nmarques> mchua, I've done a market study 2 years ago about the national footwear industry
20:35:00 <mchua> I can't necessarily say "ok, and I'll be online to mentor people 2 hours a week every week for 14 weeks."
20:35:02 <nmarques> mchua, those gits haven't provided 5% of the information Fedora has available ;)
20:35:24 <nmarques> mchua, trust me, if correctly exposed, I would recon most universities would somehow be able to help
20:35:31 <mchua> nmarques: we have *tons* of data that's just sitting there un-analyzed and unused.
20:35:57 <mchua> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Statistics has a bit, but there's stuff like... analyzing mailing list traffic, etc
20:36:12 <mchua> nmarques: the trick is figuring out how to correctly expose them ;)
20:39:16 * mchua goes to (re)write self-introduction email
20:40:25 <nmarques> mchua, I posted some guidelines, not sure about to write :)
20:42:42 <nmarques> mchua, I understand, but speaking for my university, every year we have people doing marketing studies, surveys, market studies about dumb things. We can make a small plan to present them. We offer the topics and the information. Interested people can easilly contact us, and even better, they get involved already and can participate :) we leave that for a later review, but I think we can ask the list and everyone can provide more ideas
20:42:43 <nmarques> about on how to do it, or eventually why not, etc, etc...
20:43:27 <nmarques> mchua, check if you agree with that kind of approach to the visitor
20:47:58 <mchua> nmarques: that. would rock.
20:48:19 <mchua> nmarques: we've wanted, for a while, to have someone being that kind of interface to universities, but none of us could really do it
20:48:23 <mchua> nmarques: but it sounds like you might be able to :)
20:48:42 <nmarques> mchua, I can approach mine at least
20:49:05 <nmarques> mchua, but we have to decide what we need them for
20:49:46 <nmarques> mchua, our "product" is way abstract, and way different from the regular subjects, it is an interesting thing for marketing students to approach
20:50:42 <nmarques> mchua, we ain't selling soap  ;) or even selling... and like I said, the existing documentation is something that helps a lot
20:51:26 <nmarques> mchua, for the normal curricular work. I think it's a good thing.
20:52:34 * mchua nods
20:52:44 <nmarques> mchua, the only hard problem we have
20:53:04 <nmarques> mchua, is that we're getting mainstream people without technical knowledge on linux or this kind of things
20:53:11 <nmarques> mchua, thats an extra barrier for students
20:53:46 <mchua> nmarques: oh, I see your edits to the introduction wiki page
20:53:54 <mchua> nmarques: mind if I move them to https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Joining_the_Fedora_marketing_project ? that might be a better place for them
20:54:03 <nmarques> mchua, ofc
20:54:10 <nmarques> mchua, I think we should take approach
20:54:26 * mchua edits, one sec
20:56:23 <mchua> nmarques: ok, I put it on https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Talk:Joining_the_Fedora_marketing_project since it looks like a pretty major overhaul of that page
20:56:44 <mchua> so you can edit there, and then when you think it's ready for release, move that content to the main https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Joining_the_Fedora_marketing_project page
20:56:49 <mchua> (and then tell the list so we know what's going on)
20:57:48 <nmarques> mchua, zero wiki knowledge ;) something to work on the next days
21:00:36 <mchua> nmarques: It's something you pick up over time - I'm happy to answer questions anytime, I've used mediawiki a lot.
21:00:44 <mchua> For a first round of edits, you're doing really well.
21:04:28 <mchua> #endmeeting