14:59:57 <jlaska> #startmeeting Fedora QA Meeting
14:59:57 <zodbot> Meeting started Mon Jun 21 14:59:57 2010 UTC.  The chair is jlaska. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:59:57 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
15:00:00 <jlaska> #meetingname fedora-qa
15:00:00 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fedora-qa'
15:00:05 <jlaska> #topic Gathering critical mass
15:00:34 * jskladan steps out of the shadows
15:00:36 <jlaska> Hi folks, we'll get started shortly
15:00:41 <jlaska> jskladan: you lurker! :)
15:01:20 <adamw> morning
15:01:22 * jlaska notes, I believe we are without wwoods today ... I gather he is on a train heading south right now
15:01:28 <jlaska> adamw: howdy
15:01:44 <adamw> i would like to propose a new QA group motto
15:01:55 <adamw> from dedoimedo's F13 review - http://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/fedora-13.html
15:01:57 <jlaska> adamw: let's hear it!
15:02:02 <adamw> "Testing Fedora is like stuffing a badger down your trousers; you don't really know when it's going to bite."
15:02:08 * kparal here
15:02:08 <jlaska> haha :))
15:02:13 <jlaska> kparal: hi there
15:02:46 <jlaska> #idea New QA motto - "Testing Fedora is like stuffing a badger down your trousers; you don't really know when it's going to bite."
15:02:59 <kparal> should it be tested in practice first?
15:03:14 * Viking-Ice joins in by shooting the bloody badger..
15:03:19 <jlaska> Viking-Ice: welcome
15:03:41 <jlaska> alright, I think we have enough to get started
15:04:28 <jlaska> Unfortunately, today is my double booked meeting day ... I've asked kparal to take over when I need to step out
15:04:33 <jlaska> so everyone be nice to kparal! :)
15:04:36 <jlaska> #chair kparal
15:04:36 <zodbot> Current chairs: jlaska kparal
15:04:44 <jlaska> #topic Previous meeting follow-up
15:04:55 <jlaska> #info jlaska to check-in with lmacken on the status of https://fedorahosted.org/bodhi/ticket/424
15:05:09 * adamw throws rotten fruit at kparal
15:05:16 <jlaska> I don't have any updates on this ticket, I wager others in rel-eng or infrastructure might know more
15:05:20 * kparal dodges
15:05:53 * jlaska pictures Kamil dodging the flying tomato ala 'the matrix'
15:06:08 <jlaska> I'll try find luke and see if there are any updates
15:06:14 <jlaska> anyone else have news on this front?
15:06:41 <jlaska> alright, next up ...
15:06:44 <jlaska> #info adamw to forward wwoods a good explanation of the nss-softokn problem scenario to ensure autoqa catches it in future
15:07:01 <jlaska> Adam knocked this off the list iirc
15:07:10 <adamw> yup, sent to autoqa-devel
15:07:16 <jlaska> #link https://fedorahosted.org/pipermail/autoqa-devel/2010-June/000703.html
15:07:42 <jlaska> adamw: awesome thanks, hopefully that is something 'depcheck' has covered.
15:07:48 <kparal> I haven't really understood whether the test for catching these issues would be hard or easy to code
15:08:11 <jlaska> wwoods isn't here, but I can add a discussion topic to review your nss scenario
15:08:50 <kparal> well, if it should be covered by depcheck we can wait a week for wwoods
15:09:10 <jlaska> #action wwoods to evaluate nss-softokn dependency problem for proper 'depcheck' coverage
15:09:12 <kparal> I had the impression a new test case would be needed
15:09:35 <adamw> i suspect it's something that probably isn't covered yet
15:09:55 <jlaska> kparal: maybe, if you have any ideas feel free to drop them in response to adam's note
15:10:09 <adamw> since the key issue is you need to look at whether packages will be pushed to certain repos, as well as the packages themselves
15:10:12 * jlaska hasn't yet fully absorbed the failure ... so I'm glad you have! :)
15:10:43 <kparal> well I haven't, I have just a faint idea, that's why I asked :)
15:10:53 <jlaska> okay, so we've got this as something to check-in on next week ... hopefully we know more then
15:11:00 <jlaska> Next up ...
15:11:04 <jlaska> #info jlaska to propose a clean-up of the Critical Path Packages wiki to be a suitable home for critpath information
15:11:32 <jlaska> kparal and adamw, you guys noted that the current [[Critical Path Packages]] wiki page didn't have the information you wanted (or needed to link to)
15:11:32 <kparal> that page received some heavy editing in the meantime
15:12:02 <jlaska> yeah, I tried to fill the gaps, and then got a lot of help from alaxlan and dafrito
15:12:05 <jlaska> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Critical_Path_Packages
15:12:31 <jlaska> I also filed rel-eng TRAC ticket to see if we can get a more consistent URL for the latest critpath.txt file (see http://fedorahosted.org/rel-eng/ticket/3802)
15:12:45 <jlaska> that would help not having to guess where the current critpath list is
15:13:14 <kparal> yea, that would be great, stable URL
15:13:24 <jlaska> anyhow, this page came up during the FESCO meeting last week, so I suspect others are paying attention and will be helping improve the content
15:13:28 <adamw> the 'background' section seems spectacularly useless (it's not practical information, just a nugget of historical interest). other than that, looks great
15:13:29 * kparal thinks he created a ticket for in some time ago at our trac
15:13:48 <jlaska> kparal: ooh, sorry, pass me the ticket and I'll connect the dots
15:13:57 <jlaska> adamw: what kind of info would you expect to see there?
15:14:30 * kparal looking
15:14:36 <adamw> well, there's two ways to look at it
15:14:42 * jlaska goes to listen mode
15:14:43 <adamw> if we can't think of anything useful to put there, why have the section at all?
15:14:54 <kparal> jlaska: here's the ticket I filed https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-qa/ticket/60
15:15:07 <jlaska> kparal: thx
15:15:37 <adamw> but if you want an idea of something possibly useful to go there: an explanation of why the critpath proposal came about - what problems is it trying to solve?
15:15:55 <kparal> I agree with adamw
15:16:00 <jlaska> adamw: okay, thanks ... I'll revisit
15:16:30 <jlaska> #action jlaska to cleanup (or remove) the Critical Path Packages#Background section so that it provides _some_ value
15:16:34 <jlaska> thanks gents
15:16:52 <jlaska> okay ... agenda time ...
15:16:58 <jlaska> #topic F14 QA Recommendations
15:17:30 <jlaska> nothing tremendously new here ... other than to say ...
15:17:32 <jlaska> #info Jlaska organized Fedora_13_QA_Retrospective feedback into a list of QA recommendations for Fedora 14.
15:17:46 <jlaska> I've not yet heard any alarming feedback around "good lord no!"
15:18:01 <jlaska> my next step is to start filing fedora-qa tickets for the main tasks
15:18:20 <jlaska> some of the things on the list are tasks folks are always actively working
15:18:46 <jlaska> so I may assign some of those tickets to you
15:18:53 <jlaska> don't panic"
15:18:57 <jlaska> s/^/"/
15:19:17 <jlaska> Ideally, we can start picking off tickets from the open fedora-qa F14 ticket queue
15:19:38 <jlaska> and if folks are looking for ways to get involved, hopefully that queue provides a list of ideas
15:19:53 <jlaska> Please feel free to shout if you have any concerns/ideas/complaints
15:20:13 * kparal haven't had time to study it yet, but will provide feedback soon
15:20:37 <jlaska> kparal: thx
15:21:29 <jlaska> I'm still grappling with how to see this through, but I think I'd like a page that lists all the improvements, provides tickets to follow-up and provide improved measurement of improvements etc...
15:22:17 <jlaska> I'd like to have better visibility into the cool things (and the sometimes painful tasks) we all do to prepare for a great release
15:22:32 <jlaska> I think this will help, but as always, ideas/suggestions welcome
15:22:41 <jlaska> okay, next up
15:22:44 <jlaska> #topic Proventester Update
15:23:01 <jlaska> I think maxamillion has a conflict with this time slot :(
15:23:05 <jlaska> adamw: are you able to give an update?
15:23:41 <adamw> whoops, sorry, multitasking
15:23:54 <adamw> sure, partially
15:24:42 <adamw> on our side, we're now just working on the instructions for proven testers, which we've been thrashing out on the list. with big thanks to Aaron Faanes for his great revisions. I need to make a few suggested changes to his last draft and then we
15:24:49 <adamw> we'll probably be close to done
15:25:30 <adamw> the other Thing That Needs To Happen is simply for the actual update gating system to be switched on; there's not a lot of point in having a proventesters policy and team if updates aren't actually considering proventester input
15:25:37 <adamw> i believe jlaska was liasing with releng about that
15:26:23 <jlaska> adamw: you bet, I've got that on my radar to follow-up with lmacken on
15:26:35 <jlaska> adamw: I'll let you know what comes out of that
15:27:03 * jlaska <hearts> Aaron Faanes wiki contributions :)
15:27:32 <jlaska> adamw: cool, thanks for the update
15:29:06 <dafrito> jlaska: I'd be willing to work on editing the Critical Path Packages#Background article with you, if you want. I'll probably end up touching it anyway while I work with adamw on proventesters
15:29:28 <jlaska> ah dafrito == Aaron ... welcome
15:29:32 <adamw> yay dafrito
15:29:35 <jlaska> dafrito: many thanks for the critical path wiki changes!
15:30:14 <jlaska> okay, next topic was proposed by Viking-Ice
15:30:33 <jlaska> #topic Systemd QA preparation
15:30:53 <jlaska> #info Viking-ice noted that Features/systemd was approved by FESCO and wanted to propose several QA ideas.
15:31:11 <jlaska> this was discussed briefly on IRC by Viking-Ice and adamw ... I'm not sure if what is needed to follow-up with
15:31:24 <Viking-Ice> yea basically we need to start testing this as early as possible
15:31:36 <jlaska> one take-away for me is to start up the wiki details of F14 test days
15:32:00 <jlaska> Viking-Ice: would another debugging guide, much like you did for dracut, be helpful here?
15:32:01 <adamw> i've mailed lennart to ask if he'd be interested in having a systemd test day
15:32:13 <adamw> ooh, debugging guide sounds like a good idea.
15:32:19 <jlaska> #info adamw reached out to lennart for interest on a F14 test day
15:32:44 <Viking-Ice> jlaska: yup I see if I cant throw together systemd wikipage with debug guide
15:32:44 * kparal is enthusiastic about systemd
15:33:16 <jlaska> Viking-Ice: cool, I'd love to help, but I admit I know nothing about it.  I'll be glad to assist with some wiki-foo if needed
15:34:03 <Viking-Ice> atleast someone needs to read over the page due to my exceptional good english hehe
15:34:06 <adamw> i like the idea, i hope the implementation process isn't too full of pain. =)
15:34:23 <Viking-Ice> selinux fucked as is
15:34:24 <jlaska> Viking-Ice: sure, do you want to send it to test@ whenever you have something you feedback on?
15:34:29 <adamw> Viking-Ice: sure, if you follow the usual process (post first version / draft of page to the list for comments) i'll be happy to proof it
15:34:58 <Viking-Ice> yup I'll send something to the list as soon as I have something
15:35:25 <jlaska> thanks!
15:35:26 <adamw> cool
15:35:38 <Viking-Ice> we need to make a decision when to switch to systemd by default
15:35:51 <adamw> Viking-Ice: that's more of an engineering decision than a qa one
15:35:58 <jlaska> #action Viking-Ice will start 'how to debug systemd problems' guide and send to list for review
15:36:26 <Viking-Ice> we need to check all run level cli foo service commands etc..
15:36:39 <jlaska> #action jlaska to review F14 test day wiki content
15:37:24 <adamw> i'm trying to think whether there's any obvious bear traps we should watch out for in relation to systemd
15:38:13 <adamw> the only ones I can think of off the top of my head are related to That Other Repo, so i'll look at that in my personal time...
15:38:14 <jlaska> we have pre-branch test runs of F14 content in the schedule, we could use those images for discovery of pain points etc...
15:38:38 <adamw> yeah, we'll probably just run into them as they crop up. i'm just trying to think of things that may be big problems we don't quite catch with our planned testing.
15:38:51 * jlaska hands baton to kparal
15:39:10 * jlaska goes into lurk mode
15:39:40 <kparal> alright, systemd finished?
15:40:15 <kparal> #topic AutoQA updates (initscripts, prioritization status)
15:40:23 <jskladan> OK, that one's on me :)
15:40:25 <kparal> jskladan go!
15:41:05 <jskladan> so, not much happened during the last week, but we have some news :)
15:41:37 <jskladan> initscripts - scott fergusson finished mysql review and he boldly goes to do some more already
15:42:09 <adamw> yay
15:42:17 <jlaska> go Scott go
15:42:18 <jskladan> and i'm currently 'mentoring' two more guys, who'd like to contribute, but seem kind of helpless at the moment
15:42:43 <jskladan> so i wrote a huuuge email explaining the lines on the 'todo list'
15:42:57 <jskladan> jlaska: you should have been cc'd
15:43:06 <jskladan> so i'll probably put it on the wiki
15:43:23 <jskladan> ad AutoQA - jlaska is the man of the week
15:43:40 <jskladan> he worked hard on gaining some machines
15:43:52 <jskladan> https://fedorahosted.org/pipermail/autoqa-devel/2010-June/000687.html
15:44:07 <jskladan> so it seems that we'll have testing instances in no time :)
15:44:16 * jskladan likes :)
15:44:17 * jlaska notes, mmcgrath and smooge get the honors for this
15:44:25 <jlaska> I'm just the messenger (don't shoot me)
15:44:44 <jskladan> and also started with the new bodhi hook testing https://fedorahosted.org/pipermail/autoqa-devel/2010-June/000688.html
15:45:03 <adamw> six servers? surely you don't need all of those, send one to me ;)
15:45:11 <mmcgrath> jlaska: just so I'm aware, you're no longer blocking on us for anything except qa2 right?
15:45:20 <jlaska> adamw: hah, gladly!
15:46:08 <jlaska> mmcgrath: I have 2 outstanding items I spoke to smooge about.  1) Creating a db1 mysql db, and 2) updating ACL's so that qa0[1-6].c.fp.org are only accessible from bastion (or from autoqa01.phx)
15:46:18 <jlaska> mmcgrath: I need to get a ticket in for #2
15:46:47 <kparal> #info jskladan wrote an explanation how to contribute with initscripts, will put it on the wiki
15:47:00 <mmcgrath> <nod>  we'll probably just have you do iptables.  It'd work and is easy to make alterations to when the time comes.
15:47:06 <kparal> #info jlaska gathered huge number of machines available for autoqa testing
15:47:59 <jskladan> and I also approached Ray Chen, who wrote quite a blog about fedora qa tools <http://blog.chinaunix.net/u2/68938/showart.php?id=2250919> and gess what - he is thrilled to join us :) he has a great insight on virtualization, so i'll write down some status report on the virtualization milestone, put it on wiki and will get the guy in the loop :) (and we could have the 'full' virt support in no time :))
15:48:04 <jlaska> #info Infrastructure team comes to QA's rescue -- thanks mmcgrath and smooge!
15:48:57 <kparal> #info jskladan recruited another volunteer to help up with virtualization, Ray Chen
15:49:15 <kparal> great jskladan
15:49:28 <jskladan> which is just about it on AutoQA, i guess... I'm currently working on some frontends and stuff (stay tuned :) )
15:49:50 <jskladan> so once the machines are up'n'running we'll have some fireworks :)
15:50:00 <kparal> alright, thanks for the update
15:50:39 <kparal> I had some vacation but aside from it I was working on forcing some tests to be executed inside virtual machines instead of on bare metal machines
15:50:52 <kparal> it looks good, I will have more updates next time
15:51:16 <kparal> that covers AutoQA then
15:51:36 <kparal> #topic Open discussion <your topic here>
15:52:01 <kparal> unleash your ideas now...
15:52:17 <robatino> i was wondering about archiving all the TCs/RCs
15:52:34 <jlaska> #info Interesting test idea for anyone interested -- http://blog.famillecollet.com/post/2010/06/20/ABI-:-stability-check
15:52:50 <kparal> #topic TCs/RCs archive
15:53:15 <kparal> robatino: that should be discussed with infrastructure guys I guess
15:53:28 <kparal> maybe the storage space would be problem
15:53:48 <robatino> delta compression such as disos could be used for the install images (except for netinst)
15:54:11 <robatino> if they are available quickly that would also take care of http://fedorahosted.org/rel-eng/ticket/3575
15:54:19 <kparal> what would be the benefit of such archival?
15:54:39 <kparal> s/archival/archiving
15:54:43 <adamw> well, we obviously had a case this week where we'd like to see how the previous builds behaved
15:54:46 <robatino> bugs such as https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=597283 that only affect a few people and can't get caught during testing
15:54:55 <kparal> oh that's true
15:54:56 <adamw> the mysterious x86-64 dvd boot fail on gigabyte motherboards issue
15:55:37 <kparal> ok, do you think we should file a ticket at infrastructure team?
15:55:49 <kparal> to hear their opinion
15:56:26 <kparal> if there is enough storage space it would be beneficial to have it available at least until a new Fedora is released
15:56:32 <adamw> sure
15:56:50 <kparal> who's the voluteer for writing that ticket? robatino? :)
15:57:00 <kparal> *volunteer
15:57:03 <robatino> yes, i could do that
15:57:23 <kparal> #action robatino to ask infrastructure team to archive previous RCs/TCs
15:57:43 <kparal> ok, please provide url then
15:57:53 <robatino> will do
15:58:13 <kparal> #topic test case: ABI - stability check
15:58:18 <kparal> so, we have some idea from jlaska
15:58:23 <kparal> #info http://blog.famillecollet.com/post/2010/06/20/ABI-:-stability-check
15:58:31 <kparal> #link http://blog.famillecollet.com/post/2010/06/20/ABI-:-stability-check
15:59:00 <kparal> jlaska: do you have some time to provide more details on that?
15:59:31 <jlaska> kparal: I'll see what i can dig up.  At first glance, it seemed like a good idea for consideration into the future rpmguard/rpmlint redesigned framework
15:59:35 <jlaska> again ... very far off there
15:59:37 <jlaska> s/there/here/
15:59:49 <adamw> so afaict it's a tool for checking whether the ABI has changed between two upstream releases
15:59:58 <jlaska> right on
16:00:01 <adamw> to be used if we don't trust upstream's process for identifying / notifying of ABI change?
16:00:11 <adamw> because usually, y'know, we get that info from upstream
16:00:24 <adamw> or to be used if we (QA) don't trust the packagers? =)
16:00:51 <kparal> ok, sounds good. so we should create a ticket at autoqa trac for it?
16:01:14 <kparal> to be implemented as a test case when time permits
16:01:16 <jlaska> I can toss this into a ticket, I don't think this applies to any active milestones ... but seemed like a good idea
16:01:34 <kparal> or maybe an enhancement for our rpm* tools
16:01:45 <kparal> yes, it is
16:02:09 <kparal> #action jlaska to create a ticket about possible enhancement/new test case for ABI stability check
16:02:09 <jlaska> definitely, under the framework ideas you and skvidal discussed ... hand wave ... fast fwd to when we have time to complete that ... this seems like a good candidate test
16:02:20 <kparal> ok, thanks!
16:02:36 <kparal> #topic Open discussion <your topic here>
16:02:43 <kparal> more ideas!
16:04:03 * adamw has nuthun'
16:04:23 <kparal> ok, let's close it, thanks everyone for attending
16:04:27 <kparal> #endmeeting