16:00:15 <jlaska> #startmeeting Fedora QA Meeting
16:00:15 <zodbot> Meeting started Mon Nov 29 16:00:15 2010 UTC.  The chair is jlaska. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:00:15 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
16:00:18 <jlaska> #meetingname fedora-qa
16:00:18 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fedora-qa'
16:00:33 <jlaska> #topic Waiting for participants...
16:00:43 * jskladan_lunch lurks
16:00:52 <adamw> yo
16:00:59 * jskladan_lunch heh, seems like a long lunch :)
16:01:07 * mkrizek is here
16:01:07 <jlaska> jskladan: welcome you lurker :)
16:01:16 <jlaska> mkrizek: do you have lecture today?
16:01:30 <mkrizek> jlaska: yes, but I am not there:)
16:01:38 <jlaska> mkrizek: secret is safe with me :)
16:01:46 <mkrizek> jlaska: I gave up on math
16:01:56 <jlaska> sounds like a good t-shirt idea
16:02:03 <jskladan> hehe
16:02:06 <mkrizek> :)
16:02:16 * kparal here
16:02:28 <jlaska> kparal: adamw: hello
16:02:42 <jlaska> anyone else lurking?
16:02:50 <jlaska> wwoods around?
16:03:21 <jlaska> #info Proposed meeting agenda - http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/test/2010-November/095754.html
16:03:37 * wwoods here!
16:03:44 <jlaska> wwoods: yay, welcome back
16:04:19 <jlaska> Alright, let's get started ... will certainly welcome any late #joins
16:04:23 <jlaska> #topic Previous meeting follow-up
16:04:59 <jlaska> We had no meeting last week ... so I'm not aware of any follow-up items
16:05:25 <jlaska> I've been working the QA recommendations and prepping for creating new tickets
16:05:33 <jlaska> so that'll explain our first topic
16:05:42 <jlaska> anything else folks wanted to raise before we dive in?
16:06:15 <jlaska> alright
16:06:23 <jlaska> #topic Tickets please!
16:06:35 <jlaska> A bit late ... but just a heads up on the ticket traffic to the mailing list
16:06:56 <jlaska> I've been kicking some older F14 fedora-qa tickets ... and will start filing for F15 shortly
16:07:02 <jlaska> So apologies for the mail volume :)
16:07:28 <jlaska> As always ... if anyone wants to recommend something for F15, tickets welcome
16:07:31 <jlaska> #link https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-qa/roadmap
16:07:56 <jlaska> This concludes the public service announcement on tickets (sort of)
16:08:03 <jlaska> #topic Draft OpenLDAP test case
16:08:17 <jlaska> This topic came up on the list as a result of a recent openldap update
16:08:27 <jlaska> #link http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/test/2010-November/095719.html
16:08:48 <jlaska> Basically, nirik and jvcelak were discussing documenting the steps to test the openldap-servers package
16:08:53 <wwoods> hooray! I like it when maintainers / experts give test cases.
16:09:00 <adamw> yup
16:09:13 <jlaska> yeah definitely
16:09:24 <jlaska> I thought this might be a good opportunity to see if anyone wanted to volunteer to wiki-ize that test case
16:10:10 <jlaska> This couples with another topic for F15, in terms of providing a structure for organizing proventester tests on the wiki
16:10:22 <jlaska> but for now ... this seemed like a nice K.I.S.S. example to try
16:11:03 <jlaska> if no one is anxious to grab this ... I'll add a #help to the minutes
16:11:29 <adamw> if we get a test case i'll wikify it
16:11:38 <adamw> as you said we need to set up some kind of structure for this
16:11:57 <adamw> and ideally link it in to bodhi so when you see a testing update notification for a package with a test case there's a link to the test case...
16:12:19 <jlaska> adamw: yeah ... that's the direction I think we'd all like to see it move
16:12:33 <jlaska> linking this stuff together, providing quick+easy instructions for how to add content
16:13:03 <jlaska> These proventester requests from maintainers seem like really good opportunities to document some test instructions
16:13:31 <jlaska> I can definitely help on the wiki side ... but I think we need volunteers to talk through the basic instructions with the maintainer so we know what to document
16:14:09 <jlaska> this seems like a good challenge for proventesters, but writing wiki pages isn't the most exciting thing for some people
16:14:53 <jlaska> I don't mind wiki work myself ... but I'd need help from proventesters to ask questions from maintainers, get instructions, and maybe file fedora-qa TRAC tickets so we can integrate this stuff
16:15:22 <adamw> sure
16:15:26 <jlaska> So ... look for more discussion on this going forward.  As always, we don't have all the answers, but are looking for someone interested in breaking new ground to figure out a good workflow here
16:15:30 <adamw> let's just do one first
16:15:34 <jlaska> exactly
16:16:00 <jlaska> so in the meantime ... let's figure out how to get some repeatable instructions out of the thread (http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/test/2010-November/095719.html)
16:16:12 <fenris02> openldap test case ... run migratetools and then run queries that you can verify against the /etc files
16:16:30 <fenris02> if either the migrate or the query fails, the test fails as a whole
16:16:44 <jlaska> fenris02: cool, that's the kind of stuff we'd be looking to start fleshing out on the list
16:17:12 <jlaska> Alright ... anything else on this topic?  Otherwise, I'll move on ...
16:17:13 <fenris02> migareteools is already in the repo, and already works - so it's really just to wrap a script around the process
16:18:33 <jlaska> fenris02: sounds like you might be on to something, let's bring that up in front of the maintainers for input/feedback
16:18:43 <jlaska> #topic Call for F15 Test Days
16:19:00 <jlaska> Another public service announcement requesting Test Day ideas and hosts
16:19:28 <jlaska> There are a few topics which will likely make for good events already ...
16:19:35 <wwoods> is there a mail thread for this, so I don't repeat already-suggested ideas?
16:19:46 <wwoods> or perhaps they're already on the wiki page?
16:19:49 <jlaska> wwoods: not yet, but I can kick one off
16:20:03 <jlaska> ... if that would help get ideas flowing
16:20:05 <wwoods> or use the Talk: section of the appropriate wiki page to collect ideas
16:20:27 <jlaska> #action jlaska to prep F15 test day wiki and request ideas on test@
16:20:33 <jlaska> wwoods: good suggestion, thanks
16:20:41 <wwoods> might be a good idea - I'd like to get some suggestions from the desktop/gnome3 hackers
16:20:46 <adamw> already working on that
16:20:53 <adamw> see desktop list archives
16:20:59 <jlaska> yeah ... GNOME3 will have some representation I'm sure (adamw)
16:21:02 <wwoods> "GNOME3" itself is too broad but I'm sure there are some specific areas that would benefit from a test day
16:21:09 <jlaska> xorg-x11-drv again I bet?
16:21:12 <adamw> yes
16:21:15 <jlaska> systemd
16:21:17 <adamw> yes
16:21:18 <jsmith> Yeah... I've been doing some jhbuild tests -- and I'm sure some others would love to test as well
16:21:22 <jlaska> ABRT retraceserver
16:21:40 <adamw> jsmith: no rawhide? wimp
16:21:43 <jlaska> #link Good place to watch for ideas - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/15/FeatureList
16:22:04 <jlaska> okay, so I'll take action to prep the wiki and follow-up on test@lists.fp.org
16:22:09 <jsmith> adamw: That's on my to-do list this week  :-p
16:22:11 <wwoods> i've been doing rawhide + jhbuild gnome-shell. actually RAWER than rawhide. woo, yeh, &c
16:22:25 <adamw> heh
16:22:26 <jlaska> linking to what adamw has already kicked off w/ GNOME3 at http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/desktop/2010-November/006702.html
16:22:30 <jsmith> adamw: (although the last time I ran rawhide, the Gnome Shell packages weren't the most up to date)
16:22:38 <adamw> they're pretty up to date now.
16:22:45 <jlaska> #link http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/desktop/2010-November/006702.html
16:22:56 <jlaska> #link http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA/Test_Days
16:22:59 <adamw> they were kept intentionally old in F14 because we couldn't package the newest gnome shell and still keep f14 a gnome2 environment.
16:23:11 <jlaska> Alright ... any other thoughts around F15 Test Days before moving on?
16:23:36 * jlaska intends to follow the same wiki schedule + TRAC ticket approach we used for the last 2 releases
16:24:10 <jlaska> moving along ... next topic
16:24:13 <jlaska> #topic AutoQA Update
16:24:18 <jlaska> kparal: take it away
16:25:24 * kparal stops eating peanuts
16:25:31 <kparal> let's go :)
16:25:32 <jlaska> heh
16:25:55 <kparal> it was quite some time from last AutoQA update, so I don't precisely remember what was said, maybe I'll repeat something
16:26:18 <kparal> we created a nice roadmap, thanks jlaska for improving the layout: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/AutoQA_Roadmap
16:26:36 <jlaska> #info Updated roadmap wiki at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/AutoQA_Roadmap
16:26:40 <kparal> we're now busy working on 0.4.4 milestone: https://fedorahosted.org/autoqa/milestone/0.4.4
16:27:06 <kparal> I'm glad we all are finally working on the same task, I feel it moves forward much faster now
16:28:12 <wwoods> hooray!
16:28:33 <kparal> today I have pushed support for fas.conf (ticket 244), and when mkrizek finished his patch (ticket 205), we will be able to send comments to Bodhi
16:29:09 <kparal> upgradepath is expected to be the first test bunny (what's the expression in english?:) )
16:29:20 <wwoods> guinea pig!
16:29:27 <kparal> right! :)
16:29:28 <wwoods> (man, that's a weird expression now that I think of it)
16:29:48 <wwoods> space monkey.
16:29:59 <kparal> jskladan in the mean time works on rewriting our bodhi watcher so that it works great with depcheck once it's ready
16:30:01 * maxamillion is here .... wayyyyy late, but here
16:30:28 <jskladan> kparal: the bodhi watcher is done - I've been fighting with the depcheck lately
16:30:56 <jskladan> (at least the quick'n'dirty "run just one autoqa instance for the whole batch of new stuff")
16:30:59 <kparal> did I already mention we released 0.4.3 lately? well we did. and we updated documentation, too! :)
16:31:09 <jlaska> kparal: jskladan: I was confused last week by the bodhi watcher changes ... but I think I understand it a little better now
16:31:33 <kparal> mkrizek: jskladan: do you want to talk more in detail about your current tasks?
16:31:47 <jlaska> it's 2 part right? Part#1) change the watch so it includes all updates since last fire, instead of running for *each* update
16:32:01 <jlaska> part#2 - Change to monitor the koji -pending tag, instead of scrubbing bodhi?
16:32:07 <wwoods> jskladan: I saw your email about depcheck not working as expected and sent a reply on the list - happy to talk through the problem further on IRC if need be
16:32:14 <dgilmore> win 14
16:32:33 <jlaska> #info ticket#244 (fas.conf) now in master - http://git.fedorahosted.org/git/?p=autoqa.git;a=commit;h=1b1d73030401a5859751b871043c15a2f8877064
16:32:55 <jlaska> #info mkrizek working on ticket#205, see mkrizek branch (http://git.fedorahosted.org/git/?p=autoqa.git;a=shortlog;h=refs/heads/mkrizek)
16:32:59 <jskladan> wwoods: sure, let's catch up on that after the meeting
16:33:01 <mkrizek> not at the moment, once the patch (#205) is done (which should be very soon since I only need to test it on server) I will post a description of the patch on the autoqa-devel
16:33:25 * kparal ran out of peanuts
16:33:38 * jlaska overnights more peanuts
16:34:17 <kparal> ok, so that was a short summary on AutoQA front
16:35:12 <jlaska> kparal: clumens is just about done with his anaconda_storage unittest integration.  Can we get that on the roadmap for a future update?
16:35:39 <kparal> jlaska: I noticed he had mentioned that on his blog, but I basically don't know anything about that
16:36:01 <kparal> what does it do?
16:36:04 <jlaska> kparal: Clumens, or I, will kick off discussion on autoqa-devel@ soon ... just wanted to give you a heads up
16:36:15 <kparal> ok
16:36:37 <kparal> we can surely add it to the roadmap once we know something more about it :)
16:36:44 <jlaska> great, thanks!
16:37:16 <jlaska> alright ... anything else to add on autoqa?
16:37:32 <jlaska> wwoods: any additional depcheck work you're planning that isn't in the autoqa-0.4.4 milestone (https://fedorahosted.org/autoqa/query?status=new&status=assigned&status=reopened&milestone=0.4.4)?
16:38:31 <kparal> wwoods: I believe there are still a few pending questions about depcheck in autoqa-devel (but I haven't read through those last-hour emails yet)
16:39:30 <wwoods> let's see
16:40:23 <wwoods> https://fedorahosted.org/autoqa/ticket/248 represents what I hope is the last major problem
16:40:47 <wwoods> basically there's some complexities relating to when and how packages get tagged / accepted / karma'd
16:41:04 <wwoods> I'm writing up a blog post explaining the details, hopefully for release later this week
16:41:39 <jlaska> Nice ... those are always good posts
16:41:52 <wwoods> in short: bad things could happen if the -pending set changes while we're testing
16:42:38 <wwoods> there's two ways to prevent bad things from happening: either a) treat packages that pass an earlier test as "blessed" and pretend like they've already been pushed live
16:42:47 <jlaska> #info wwoods working on ticket#248 - bad things happen if -pending set changes while test is running
16:43:09 <wwoods> or b) retest all the pending packages and revoke the +1 karma / acceptance if the package fails due to an interaction with a newer package
16:43:18 <wwoods> b) is much trickier, so we're doing a)
16:43:47 <kparal> well, we don't plan to add karma for now. if the result changes, we post another comment with the new result
16:43:52 <wwoods> AFAICT they're equivalent otherwise
16:44:12 <wwoods> anyway this requires depcheck to be able to treat some of its inputs as if they were already live
16:44:34 <wwoods> so I added code to do that, the week before the break
16:44:53 <wwoods> we'll need to adapt the test wrapper accordingly (to use the --accepted flag)
16:45:30 <wwoods> also jskladan seems to have uncovered a confusing problem that we're working on fixing or giving better diagnostic info about
16:45:47 <wwoods> anyway, the blog post will explain more
16:46:32 <jlaska> thanks for the extra info ... looking forward to the post
16:47:02 <jlaska> I think we're ready for <open discussion> ... will change topic if no other autoqa discussion
16:47:33 <wwoods> open that discussion!
16:48:12 * nirik would like to mention something...
16:48:22 <jlaska> nirik: autoqa-related, or other?
16:48:29 <nirik> other
16:48:49 <jlaska> okay ...
16:48:56 <jlaska> #topic Open Discussion - <your topic here>
16:48:59 <jlaska> nirik: take it away
16:49:29 <nirik> ok, there was another long thread on the devel list recently about updates and updates process, etc.
16:49:43 <nirik> I gathered up all the suggestions (good or bad) in a list.
16:49:52 <nirik> for fesco to look at adjusting things.
16:50:13 <nirik> It would be cool if we could get QA thoughts/input on the ideas... what ones are best worth considering.
16:50:29 <nirik> should I just mail the list? do a ticket? or how best to gather that input?
16:50:50 <adamw> mailing the list is fine, i think.
16:50:50 <jlaska> howabout a link here ... and perhaps a follow-up on the list?
16:51:07 <nirik> well, here's a paste of the list I have: http://fpaste.org/TYJ6/
16:51:16 <nirik> yeah, can mail the list...
16:52:21 <jlaska> great thanks ... I'll be happy to add some thoughts there, as I'm sure others will
16:52:30 <nirik> ok. Sounds great.
16:53:00 <jlaska> #info nirik to send updates process ideas to test@ for feedback (preview at http://fpaste.org/TYJ6/)
16:53:12 <jlaska> Any other discussion topics?
16:54:17 <jlaska> alright, closing out the meeting in 1 minute
16:55:16 <jlaska> alrighty ... 10 seconds ...
16:55:26 <jlaska> thanks gang ... I'll send minutes to the list
16:55:30 <jlaska> #endmeeting